Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian (Post 16655)

How big do you think it needs to be? How much space do billions of human souls, fallen angels & devils take up??

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 16658)

Now THAT is a good question brother...
are we talking worm souls or full size human souls?

Forgive me Kiwi, you know I had to ask this... :D

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian (Post 16681)

It's probable that the soul, once it has left a man's body, takes on the exact shape and size of that man's body. In the case of damned souls, God may change their size & shape? I still think that "their worm" is referring to their soul, but whether or not it takes on the shape of an actual worm I do not know. Dr Ruckman thinks that their shape will degenerate into a form resembling their father the Devil, that old slithering serpent.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian (Post 16681)

I've been thinking about the phrase Christ used three times in Mark chapter 9 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched", and if this worm is another creature and not the soul itself, then the text is not teaching eternal damnation of the soul, but only teaching that the worm creature never dies? See what I mean, jellybean?

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 16683)

Furthermore, I think the the rich man in hell appeared to Abraham as a MAN in flames. Abraham seemed to recognize this fellow as a human, for he detailed his life on earth and referred to him as a "son" not a degenerated worm without hands or feet, etc.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian (Post 16684)

That's true, but that was in "hell" NOT in the "lake of fire". Two different locations, one is a temporary 'prison' until the resurrection of the dead, and the other is their final and permanent destination, and that's the context of Isaiah 66:24 which Jesus was referring to.

Brings up an interesting point, those in hell will be resurrected before they are tossed into the lake of fire, so maybe they retain their human form until the resurrection and then begin their degeneration once in the lake! :eek:

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian (Post 16617)

But the location of Isaiah 66:23 & 24 is relating to verse 22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD". I'm not so sure there will even be a Dead Sea on the new earth? I believe that the current one will be melted up with everything else before the Lord creates the new heavens and earth.

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 16691)

Matt, God gave Abraham and his seed a land grant that is eternal. Jerusalem and Israel, even in New Heavens and New Earth, will be in the same location.

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 16691)

If the lake of fire is eternal it;s location is eternal.

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 16688)

Problem is, that would mean the human soul is a worm, and we have already covered that.

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 16688)

These horrible creatures are not human souls, not degenerated former human-worms, not armless men, not maggot-men, not worm-boys, not homo-sapiens-worms, and not cute little wiggle-worms. The little book Ruckman preaches about called "Beyond Death's Door" by Dr. Maurice Rawlings gives a good description; they are big and nasty enough to be considered as "red snakes" by a patient who apparently died and saw them in chapter one. The description of that hellish vision convinced the atheist Rawlings to reconsider his position of "higher learning" and get saved. (the fact that the patient's hair was standing on end probably helped).

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 16657)

Horror story, well I agree my brother...
Then again, what could be more horrible than billions of people burning for eternity? Does it sound like science fiction to you, well okay brother but have you ever read Ruckman's description of the New Jerusalem, the Great White Throne Judgement or the flying roll of Zech. 5? :)

The more I look at Isaiah 66, the less I am convinced it is teaching anything about the Dead Sea being the Lake of Fire or its distance from Jerusalem. Please forgive me guys, maybe it's there, but I'm just not seeing it.

Let's face it, Isaiah 66:22 sets the context as the NEW heavens and the NEW earth, if God wants to he can set up a system for all flesh to see them burning on the surface of some NEW version of a sun or sun-like creation, a great burning mass of fire, who knows. The sun---now THAT is one big lake of fire, (maybe 11000°F) and it's close enough that everyone on earth already sees it every day. The rich man in Luke 16 was able to SEE Abraham, even though there was a "GREAT GULF fixed" between them. Even with our primitive video systems we can see things in great detail that are far away right now.

Again, the context of Isaiah 66:22 sets the context as the NEW heavens and the NEW earth, so I'm not sure the passage in Isaiah 66 is teaching anything about the Dead Sea being the Lake of Fire, I guess to me that feels like speculation of men as well. But there is nothing wrong with that of course---after all, we are not discussing doctrinal foundations here.

The first setting of Rev. 20-21 is marked by a spiritual being with a key of the "bottomless pit" and a chain, where Satan is imprisoned. By the time we get to wherever and whatever the Lake of Fire is, (vs. 10-15) this burning thing is able to hold not only the devil and his angels for which it was prepared, it is also going to HOLD "DEATH AND HELL." This does not sound like a lake on earth to me with earthly fire, this seems more unearthly. Besides, the first earth has "passed away." This isn't Kansas anymore. (Rev 21:1, II Peter 3:10)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think in this setting we will be witnessing and dealing with events and locations that are on a different physical and spiritual plane than we can imagine. Try as we might to grasp all this, the reality is that God has prepared some things that have not even entered into our hearts or imagination (1 Corinthians 2:9).