Bad tracts
 

This is a great article about some tracts that bear false teachings. I think it's a rude awakening that we Christians need to make sure we share a pure gospel.

http://jesus-is-savior.com/False%20D...bad_tracts.htm

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Brother Stephen, I couldn't disagree with you more! The site to which you referred is very dangerous, and full of erroneous teaching and conspiracy-mongering. There's some good stuff there, but overall, I would never recommend it to a new Christian. The guy who runs it is so hung up on this "Lordship salvation" thing that he slanders some very valiant servants of God - - - and Jack Chick is one of them.

Chick's ministry has probably won more souls to Christ than any other single publisher, at least since Good News Publishers apostasized. And I'm talking about good, solid, conversions, that last.

Y'know, brother, when I first came to this forum, I was trying to be very polite and reserved. Several of the brethren said "No, no, speak your mind!" So I'm doing it.

Thank you for the recommendation, but in this case, I think you're backing a losing horse. Please don't think I'm rebuking you; I'm just trying to warn people about a bad site.

No, that's quite all right VR. I use Chick tracts (handed out nearly 50 little ghost tracts this halloween), but I must admit I'm uncomfortable doing so. Same goes with the other tracts that I have that say one must repent of their sins in order to be saved. Is this not another gospel? What is the biblical way of dealing with a gospel message that isn't the one given to us by Paul? If you can add some insight to clarify how I should feel about this message of Lordship Salvation then please share it with me. The reason I feel so strongly about it, and Luke can attest to this, is because I used to believe in LS. I can attest to the countless nights I doubted my salvation because of the sin still in my life. So, if a born again, and SAVED Christian can be hurt by this LS gospel, then how much more potential is there for harm in it being recieved by those new to Christ?

I do appreciate your honesty VR. I agree that Chick tracts are very powerful. But it wouldn't be wise to ignore the flaws in this so vital and fundamental ministry of gospel tracts.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

EDIT: Also, I do like Jesus-is-savior.com. There are some goofy sites on the main page (stuff Scott would have liked), but none the less, the majority of it is good. For example, show me a better compilation of KJB defense material than this: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible...king_james.htm And what about old fashioned baptist preaching such as this: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books..._and_books.htm I agree that the site isn't a good site for sinners and babes in Christ, but it is an invaliable tool in reaching backsliders and the luckwarm.

Check out Steve Anderson on YouTube; that crackpot hates both Jack Chick AND Fellowship Tract League because they include repentance in their tracts. From a Biblical perspective, the doctrine of repentance must be approached carefully: on one side, people get rid of it all together, and on the other, people who over-emphasize repentance and misapply it.

Repentance simply means to turn: it doesn't mean to turn from sin or to turn to Christ, it simply means to turn. God repented several times, and there are other places that people repented when sin wasn't even part of the equation. The issue is that people have certain things in their lives that come between them and trusting in Christ: some have sin, some have good works, others have family or peer pressure; it's all different. People have to repent of that which they are trusting in other than Christ, or turn from that which keeps them from the Savior, and turn to Christ. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness (unto = direction), and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

There is a balance to be found with this issue; apparently that site takes one ditch, while others like Ray Comfort and others are in the other ditch. Satan doesn't care which ditch you're in, as long as you're in one.

Yes, but what shall we do with those that tell people they have to quit sinning (they call this biblical repentance) in order to be saved?

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Yes, I agree with you stephanos. I find Chick tracts very powerful and effective. I wish we have a lot of them. But I'm a little bothered by its tendency towards Lordship Salvation.

So, just because anyone mentions repentance at all they suddenly believe Lordship Salvation? Wow. I didn't think people were that juvenile. But I wouldn't trust anything off of Jesus-is-savior.com anyway.

There's no need to be so cavalier, aussiemama. People who stress repentance do tend toward Lordship Salvation, among them Ray Comfort and his type. However, that's not to say that anyone who teaches turning from sin is a heretic. Like I pointed out, some people do have to turn from sin; the problem is that people try to make people completely surrender to Christ before they even know what they're doing as a Child of God. One must accept Christ with a repentant heart, but there is nothing in Scripture that says a person must "make Him the Lord of your life" in order to receive Salvation.

I know, but I have NEVER seen anywhere in a Chick tract where it said you had to "make Jesus the Lord of your life" before getting saved. I think Mr Chick really is genuine and produces good tracts. The word repent does not automatically mean "Lordship salvation" is really my point.

The point isn't that his tracts say "male Him the Lord of your life", the point is that his tracts say you must "repent of your sins". Repent means "to turn", or "to turn from". Do don't need to turn form your sins in order to be saved, nor can you. You only must turn from your sin of unbelief. :)

Well, we do have to repent of our sins, but repentance is not forsaking. It's a change of mind. So when I got saved (after reading a chick tract) I saw that God hated my sin. I didn't want to do it anymore. And I have struggled, but in my mind, I have always hated sin after that day.

So yeah, while I love Jesus-is-savior.com, because of his stand on eternal security and the freeness of grace, I have seen a trend where he is denying the neccesity of repentance, but on the other hand he has many articles about proper biblical repentance by John R Rice and H.A. Ironside (and ironside even says repent of your sins in "Except Ye Repent" after defining repentance as a change of mind about sin).

The word repent is not a dirty word.

I haven't really found anything on Jesus-is-savior.com that I would disagree with majorly. There is much conspiracy stuff there, but I ignore that part.. his sections on false teachers, false doctrines, King James Bible are great (you should really dig around that menu at the top - the site is absolutely massive). Jesus-is-lord on the other hand.. well, you know what I think of that place (even though, same as with Stephanos, it was very helpful for me as a young christian - I just see it as quite legalistic now - in the proper sense of the word).

EDIT: I agree with Josh to some extent. But we must not only turn from unbelief, but from self righteousness and anything else we trust in. When anyone comes to Christ, they will come with a heavy burden of sin. They cannot but do anything else.

I agree that repentance includes turning from whatever it is you're trusting in besides Christ, it does not however require a hatred for sin. The Bible doesn't say anywhere that we must hate, or even dislike our sin. It says we must see ourselves as sinners, lost and on our way to Hell, accept Chtist as the only way to Heaven, and put our trust in Him. Some people will hate sin before salvation, all who are saved will be given this hatred by the Holy Spirit I believe, buts it's not a requirement to get saved.

Hating sin is something that is likely to happen when one is saved. It's not a requirment of salvation by any means. Also, those that hate sin before salvation likely hate the consequences of sin, not the sin itself. But when one is born again, we hate sin because we LOVE JESUS! A born again Christian will realize that Christ Jesus CHOSE to shed His blood for our sins, and the thought of our righteous God nailed to a cross can be so difficult to think about at times, that the natural response seems to be to hate the sin that warranted such a soul saving sacrifice.

Back to chick tracts. In "This Was Your Life" it has the man being told after asking what he must do to be saved: "REPENT! - Surrender your life to Christ, ..." and then he prays "Lord, I know I'm a sinner - I repent of my sins and I acknowledge Jesus Christ as my Lord and personal savior!" Then in "A Love Story" it says "Who wants you to tell Him how very sorry you are for your sins... And that you'll turn away from them?" I want to make it clear that I'm not against repentance (to turn, change ones mind). I'm also not against striving to live a life meet for repentance as Paul preached:

Acts 26:20 (KJV) But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

What I'm against is adding anything to God's SIMPLE plan for salvation. We must make it ever so clear that BELIEF in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, is the only thing that will save. When a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ THEN we instruct them on how to live a life well pleasing to God.

So anywho, I think I'll keep using chick tracts, since they aren't blatant LS. Also it is encouraging to know that brother Luke was lead to the Lord with them. I just want the brethren to be on guard against the little leaven (love you George!) that has crept into Churches lately, and in their delivery of the gospel.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

Excuse me, brethren: could we maybe have a reality check? If you're looking for deep spiritual doctrine in a salvation tract, you're looking in the wrong place. That's not what they're written for, and, anyway, an unbeliever doesn't understand spiritual things. Tracts are written (if they're any good) to be easily understood by pagans. The difference between "sin" and "sins" is lost on a pagan, if he's just coming under conviction for the first time.

The girl who led me to Christ witnessed to me for two years, and sometimes gave me tracts; specifically, she used Campus Crusade's "Four Spiritual Laws." That is not a very good tract. But the Lord used her to "win" me. At the time of my conversion, I had no idea what a "sin nature" was; I just knew that I was a sinner, because I knew myself!

I'm not saying that tracts should be written carelessly, or contain unsound doctrine; if a tract preaches the "prosperity gospel," for example, it's not of God. But that's not the kind of thing we're talking about.

Criticizing a ministry as fruitful as Chick's, because of a word or a phrase, is a classic example of gnat-straining and camel-gobbling.

Lol I got Jesus-is-savior.com mixed up with Jesus-is-lord.com. I do sometimes read from Jesus-is-savior.com, I just happen to believe in this case that he's wrong to say a tract is promoting Lordship salvation just because the word "repent" appears in it.

VR,

AMEN!!!!!!!!



Atlas

When you try to divorce repentance from sin you are rejecting scripture. The problem with the Church of Christ is they reverse the God given order of repentance and faith and make salvation a process. They teach:

1. Believe
2. Repent
3. Confess
4. Be baptized
In other words just believe and then start working your way to heaven.

Baptists have always taught that repentance comes before faith. Repentance will bring about a change of heart and attitude toward their sin. They will see themselves guilty before God and in need of salvation. There will be a desire to forsake the sin and turn to God.

Romans 10:10 clearly states that "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Walking down to an altar and praying a prayer after someone will not hack it. I had a head belief for several years but was nothing but a self righteous and lost church member.

Did you sign up just to say that?

How does praying a prayer constitute head belief? And noone even said anything about the aisle or altar in this thread... And what is belief but a function of the mind.

Salvation is a single action. It is turning to God. turning from sin and turning to God are two seperate actions.

Sorry, you sound like another Paul Washer proselyte, bent on your "war on the sinner's prayer".

Now you are still self righteous. Instead of just asking Christ for salvation, you have now done something! You have repented of your sins. good for you.

Stephen, I don't have a cat in this fight, and I've read the whole thread, and my only comments is we need to first read anything we give out because as giving them out free, we at the same time are signing our names to the material and giving it our personal stamp of approval as being Scriptural. I use Chick and Fellowship Tract League almost exclusively except for KJV related material of a specialized nature(such as the EYE OPENER). Chick does not write a tract for Grace Believers, and then another version for Baptists and another version for Lutherans, he writes one tract for everybody to give out. Same with Fellowship. My suggestion is simple military discipline: We check our ammo before we give it out. If we feel it's not Scriptural, there's is plenty that is. We must remember that tracts are written by men, the Scripture written by God, and God's words alone will lead men to Christ. I've found few tracts besides Chick and FTL that present the crucifixion of Christ more openly and graphically. Let's all pray our discernment be edified and able to spot error when it shows up.

Much fruit to you all

Grace and peace

Tony

I work with a man who says he is a Christian because he believes in Jesus. He gets drunk every weekend and a couple of weeks ago he was kicked out of a bar because he stripped down naked while drunk. I told him just because he says he is a Christian doesn't make him one. He simply comes back and says that he believes in Jesus and doesn't have to go to church to be saved. In short he has deceived himself into believing that he is ready to meet God.

What did the apostle Paul say to the Corinthians?

2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

A few verses down he says the following to those same Corinthians.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Preachers like Steve Anderson make men like the friend I work with a twofold child of hell by soothing their conscience and making them believe all is right with their soul by merely being religious.

Jesus said "repent ye, and believe the gospel." Repentance is also part of the Great Commission.

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

If you do not preach repentance you are not fulfilling the commission given by the Lord himself.

Once again it is with the heart that men believe unto righteousness. Any faith that doesn't change a man's heart (his inner most being) is not saving faith.

I am going to take a note out of George's book.

1st post - CRITICISM
2nd post - CRITICISM

Who are you? Why should anyone listen to you. We don't know you, your testimony, or anything else about you. Where are you from? How did you find this place? Do you believe the KJB is the final authority and infallible etc.

As for the man you speak of, well, I don't know the whole story, only the short paragraph you have given me, which sounds like a sermon illustration of Ray Comfort's or some other lordship salvation preacher.

Furthermore, if that is true, and I have no reason to doubt that... I wonder what is missing from the story... why does this guy not go to church. Why does he go out and get drunk? And more importantly, why are you telling him he is lost because he sins. What are you expecting him to do? Look up to you and see a sinless man?

2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.


This doesn't have to do with salvation. He already spent the entire first book and second book telling them everything that is wrong with the church, and he is warning them that if he comes and they are acting carnal still, well, he ain't going to be happy.

You quoted Acts 11:18 - why? It has the word repent in it, but it isn't relevant to what I said...

What do I care what Steven Anderson says. He isn't my pastor. He pastors some little church in Arizona. I don't even live in the same country. If he wasn't on youtube every other day complaining about his beating, noone would have heard of him. Same as Paul Washer, except washer seems to be more humble than to put videos of himself online. A bunch of his fans do it for him instead.

Seeing as your posts don't even address the actual thread (which was about tracts, not altar calls, prayers, carnal christianity or even steven anderson), one could come to the conclusion that you are here pushing your agenda!

And what agenda would that be?

The same one that I have been warning people about for about two years. That Ray Comfort and Paul Washer have begun a "revival" that spells the end of the end. That you define repentance by your own experience instead of what the Bible says.

I preach repentance. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. That's repentance right there. Turning to Jesus Christ. It's all an unsaved man can do. He can't stop sinning. He doesn't even want to stop.

Here is the fulfillment of Luke 24:47

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That's not the gospel.

The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:3-4


Tandy, there is no such thing as saving faith. The term occurs not once in the entire Bible. Faith is the channel by which God's grace is given to us. Faith is the means by which we receive salvation from God. But the OBJECT of faith is what saves. Jesus Christ is the object of faith. Faith in itself is not saving unless it is placed in Jesus. It's the object of the faith, not the quality.

Tandy - rather than joinin up and expecting everyone to just change because you say so, why don't you tell us about yourself? Are you a Bible believer? Are you a calvinist? Are you dispensational or reformed? Where are you from? How/when were you saved if you remember?

For example? What error?

Conspiracy mongoring? Does it pose legitimate questions?

Don't fall into that neo-con mass media hype about anyone who believes in conspiracies is nuts. Remember we believe that the devil is out to get us all and he runs and owns the governments of the world and wants to slaughter billions.

"very valiant servants of God" No one is above scrutiny when it comes the the word of God...especially good, godly, dedicated, separated so on and so forth. This is a forum for Bible believers. Let us lay all 52 cards face up. I personally have detested that little stupid phrase on the last page of chick tracts. I'm glad to see someone else reads what they hand out and weighs it against the word.

Tandi, we do what?

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"In other words just believe and then start working your way to heaven."

We do what?

Grace and peace sister, you got a long row to hoe.

Tony

Brother, that is the best piece of selectively quoting someone I have ever seen. I believe just the opposite of what the Church of Christ teaches. The difference between a lost Campbellite and a Christian who has been saved by the grace of God is a Campbellite tries to live right in order to be saved. A Christian tries to live right as a result of salvation! If I did not make that clear I apologize. Christ didn't die for your unbelief. He died for your sins!

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

A man in some remote jungle that has never heard the gospel does not go to hell because of "unbelief." He goes to hell because he is an adulterer, murderer, thief, liar etc. He will be judged according to the deeds he as done in the flesh (Romans 2:3-6).

The answer to the sin problem is exactly what Jesus said. "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15). I preach the same message the apostle Paul did.

Act 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Re: "Bad tracts"
 

Aloha Tandy 1650,

Let's start over - shall we? First off, as brother Luke has said, we know nothing about you. I'm not even sure whether you are a man or a woman. It would be nice to know a little bit about the person we are speaking with.

If you are a woman, I can understand your reluctance to give out much information about yourself, considering how perverse the "net" is, but I think it would be appropriate for you to give at least a little information about yourself rather than just arrive here and jump into a controversy.

I also understand your concern about what some call - "easy believism", however, just because we have a "concern" about the shallow way that salvation is presented in some circles, we cannot (must not) "change" what God has written concerning salvation in order to insure that no "abuse" occurs concerning it.

The basic prerequisite to receiving God's gift of eternal salvation is we must: . . . . "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved," .... [Acts 16:31]

Belief is the "KEY" that makes it possible to become a son of God: John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

We have to be careful that we don't add "repentance" to the Gospel:

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I "think" that you and I are not very far apart in our "belief" (I too believe that belief is a sole operation and function of the heart), I just think you you must be extremely careful in regards to the requirement that there must always be "repentance" BEFORE salvation. When a child of 8, or 9, or 10, or 11 believes "on the Lord Jesus Christ", what sins do they have to "repent" of?

There are a lot of Threads & Posts dealing with this subject on this Forum. I would suggest you use the "SEARCH" function on the Forum and check out some of the Posts. In addition I have a 250 page study on the heart of man on my web page - you might want to check it out, to see if we are in agreement or not.

We are a pretty friendly bunch here, EXCEPT when it comes to Bible correctors, deniers, or heretics (and modern "Christianity" is full of them).

Why don't we start over - introduce yourself and relax: We don't bite, although occasionally I have been known to BARK! :D

Brother I am an ex-Marine who believes the word of God. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church in Morristown, TN. When I was ten years old at a Wednesday night service the preacher asked everyone who was saved to raise their hands. When he pointed down at me sitting on the front pew and asked if I was saved, I meekly shook my head no. At the end of the service he came down and took me to the altar and led me in a sinner's prayer and told me I was "saved." The only problem was, I was under no conviction, and the prayer didn't mean a thing. I believed in Jesus and that there was a heaven and a hell (so much that I trembled at the thought), but the only "assurance" I had came from the fact that I said a prayer and was a baptized member of a Baptist church.

A few years passed and I was constantly afraid of dying and remember one night during a thunder storm, great fear came upon me as I thought the trumpet might be blowing. I ran outside not knowing what to do. I continued to convince myself I was saved though because I "believed in Jesus." Everyone told me I was saved except the Holy Spirit!

When it came to lying and stealing, it didn't bother me and I had nothing but "religion" to comfort me. In 1971, while working at a grocery store, someone left a Chick tract entitled "This Was Your Life" in a flower pot. I took it home and after reading it, the Holy Spirit brought me under much conviction and I no longer tried to fool myself into thinking that I was saved. A week or two passed when after hearing a sermon by my pastor, I finally cried from my heart to the Lord to have mercy and save me for Jesus sake. There was a peace that passed over my soul that words can't describe and for the first time in my life I layed down in bed and wasn't afraid to meet God.

Only someone with an agenda (a repentantless gospel) would even imply that "This Was Your Life" teaches "lordship salvation" as portrayed by some extremists. Nowhere does the Bible teach that you must "repent of all your sins" but it does teach that if one comes to God for salvation there will be a desire to turn from sin and turn to Christ. That change of heart is the difference between a Christian and a lost religious man.

The apostle Paul said it plainly concerning those whose faith is only a mental assent and didn't get down to their heart.

Tit 1:16 They profess (just like the friend I work with) that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Regards.

I think the clearest teaching on repentance is Luke 13:1-4

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I believe repent means to change your viewpoint or attitude. In Luke 13 we have some self-righteous people who assumed that because some people had been put to death by Pilate, that this was a clear indication that these people were exceedingly wicked sinners, and that God had brought about this circumstance to punish them.

But notice what Jesus says in vs. 2 "Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?"

So, what Jesus was doing is telling these self-righteous people that they need to change their viewpoint or attitude toward themselves and recognize that they too were sinners. Only when a person realizes they are a lost sinner will they come to Christ for forgiveness.

And it is the same in vs 4 "think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?"

Again, what Jesus is telling these people is they need to recognize their own sinfulness and realize they too were in danger of perishing.

And John the Baptist said the same.

Matt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

First, notice vs. 5 says "confessing their sins"

This is repentance. It is a change of heart, a change of view or attitude toward one's self to admit and confess they are a sinner.

And if you've ever gone door to door trying to lead someone to Christ you know this is the most difficult thing to convince a person of, that they are a lost sinner. People will tell you over and over "I am a good person!" I have heard that many, many times. This is the change that first needs to occur, a person must realize they truly are a sinner and not a good person. This is repentance.

The Pharisees and Sadducees were known for their self-righteousness. What was their biggest criticism of Christ?

Matt 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?

You see, the Pharisees thought they were righteous. They did not consider themselves sinners in danger of Hell. They could see other's faults, but could not see their own.

And this is why John the Baptist asked, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

It was a very notable thing to see a Pharisee or Sadducee admit that they too were wicked sinners.

And there was another attitude that had to be changed. Some thought they were saved merely because they were the decendents of Abraham. Many Jews still believe this. And some folks believe they are saved simply because they belong to a certain church. But John the Baptist pointed out to them that simply being a decendent of Abraham did not assure salvation, and that God could raise up children unto Abraham of stones.

So, as was said by others, repentance means to turn from trusting in a person's own righteousness, or believeing that you are saved merely by ancestry or belonging to a particular church.

Re: "Bad tracts"
 

Aloha brother Tandy,

Thanks for your word of testimony, I'm now (more than ever) pretty sure that we are not very far apart on what we believe.

I too, have seen these "heavy handed" tactics from preachers. God blessed my wife and I with 7 children between 1962 & 1982, I never once "pressured" one of them to "get saved". I believe that the Holy Spirit must convict and convince (through the hearing of God's word) in order for someone to be genuinely saved.

On the Island of Kauai, we once had this preacher from Texas who came to our little Baptist church and at the end of one of the services he did practically the same thing (as what happened to you) to one of the neighbors girls (14-15 years old) that we would bring to the church services. He "cornered" her and pushed for a "decision".

That "preacher" left after a week of meetings, BUT, that girl NEVER went to church with us again! :eek: I vowed that I would NEVER do that to ANYONE, nor would I allow anyone that I labored with for the Lord do that either.

I could be wrong brother, but I believe that we are real close on what we believe what constitutes genuine salvation. if you can, and have a mind to, stick around - there are real fine folks on this Forum. Welcome. :)

Hi Brother, thank you for your testimony
We don't turn from sin to turn to Christ, we take the filthy rags that are our life and lay them at his feet at the cross and exclaim "I cannot deal with them lord I leave it all at your cross"
To turn from sin to turn to Christ is adding to salvation, we must take our sins TO Christ knowing full well we are dead in them for we have no power to turn from them or deal with them without him, once sins are forgiven and dealt with there will be a genuine repentance toward our sinful lives and we will strive to change those things by Gods grace and over time, not overnight. I understand to what you mean about those who fit into the "easy believism" category, but you have to be careful when and how you define "easy believism" Paul Washer, Ray Comfort, John Macarthur etc all teach that turning from sin must be done before we come to Christ.
If a man was living in sin with his Girlfriend and received a Gospel tract, or heard the word of God being preached and was convicted in his heart and knew he was dead in his sin without Christ as his personal Saviour, does that man need to first go home and sort out his living arrangements before Christ will accept him? NO of course not, that change comes after salvation
I will agree with you that simply "saying a prayer" but not believing in your heart you are a guilty sinner destined for an eternal hell does not save a man, but many do feel convicted of their sins in their hearts, but they may be simple unlearned people, they have no idea of how it all is supposed to work in a Church, a Pastor may tell them they need to say a prayer or follow an alter call, but if the first step toward Christ has been made in their hearts, they are saved

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

LOL, well that's a pretty good combination right there! :)
I enjoyed your testimony Tandy...

Just to be clear, we have two members on the forum with very similar user names;
TANDI with a butterfly and TANDY the former Marine...

The Tandy1650 is an electronic chess machine am I right ?

Absolutely. That is the first chess computer I ever bought. I used to play in chess tournaments.

Tandy,

When I was saved, it was also by Jack Chick's tract "This was your life". I've never responded to an altar call for salvation. You'll notice if you read the thread that I was in disagreement with the OP about Jack Chick teaching lordship salvation.

Having said that though, despite being convicted of sin, I still sin. In fact, I struggle with sin habitually.

So when someone comes along saying that simple faith in Christ won't cut the mustard, and that one must turn from sins to be saved, I, a poor struggler, get very upset at the hopeless situation I appear to be in.

On the one hand, I cry out to God for deliverance from sin daily. And yet I still commit it. According to popular preachers today (Washer, Comfort & MacArthur), the evidence is against me. According to them, I am not in obedient submission to God's laws.

Now, someone like you might say that I am not saved. But what would I have to do to be saved in your books.. stop sinning? that's make my salvation based on works. Would I have to be convicted of sin? Well, I already am, and I hate it. So I am stuck in this middle ground where I believe on Christ, but I struggle with sin, want to stop sinning, and doubt my salvation. I never prayed any "prayer of salvation". I never answered an altar call. As a young anglican man of 19, I read a gospel tract that showed me my real condition and believed on Jesus Christ.

And now, I don't even know if I am saved anymore (I don't mean I lost it. I mean I don't KNOW anymore. I did know at one stage. I thought I did anyway). Not because of you. But because the simple belief I thought was enough is not enough anymore according to half of Christianity... I don't know if I am saved and have God's grace to continue to overcome sin. So how can I do it? Pray for repentance? I've prayed and prayed and prayed that God would repent me. That God would turn my heart to him from sin. I've prayed and prayed for assurance and got none. I've prayed to know whether I am saved or not and got no answer.

All I can do is believe, but apparently that's not even enough anymore.

I can't see myself as lost, because I believe on Jesus Christ as Saviour. I can't see myself as saved, because there is sin in my life that I want to quit, but struggle with. So what do I do? I'm either lost or saved.. I'm not in the middle, I know that.

And then I see you tandy, coming along, using a heap of terms I am familiar with... mental assent, head knowledge, using the word reprobates in the way you have, saying that God "grants" repentance unto life (I know it's in the Bible, but the verse you used was referring to the gentiles as a whole. Not all of them repented. He also gave the jews repentance (Acts 5:31). I've seen your type before. Other men's experiences don't match yours so you doubt their salvation like you doubted your own..

I am upset, concerned over my condition, and I am sorry if I am responding poorly to you.

:amen: I do too
In fact I actually feel physically sick when I think about it.
I backslid for a lot of years after being saved very young ( When I was 10) I knew I was wrong living like the world and I ALWAYS felt guilty until life just got so bad that I couldn't cope anymore, I just couldn't go on living like I was, so I took it ALL to the Cross and asked My Lord and Saviour to free me from the burden of my sinful ways and let me live for him, asked him for the strength and courage to walk with him in all my ways and for the strength and faith to change, I was heavy Brother, real heavy and this verse just made me weep bitterly and made me realise I only had to go to Jesus

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

I struggle daily and that change is not overnight, I pray forgiveness for my sins every single night before I ask of anything in prayer because I am certain I have sinned in some way, I see sin now like a dirty great big stain on my life I want to change and I am, but it takes time, humility, patience, longsuffering, tears, prayers, more tears, more prayers and I just leave it all at the cross every night. Brother Luke I love you in the Lord so let me tell you this and let no man ever rob you of assurance ever again, The greatest preacher aside from the Lord Jesus Christ said this, and I want you to read and reflect on these words and the Power they can bring into your life.

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


If you are feeling the way you are feeling Brother fully aware of the sin in your life and struggling daily as I am also, the Lord is working through you the Lords strength is being made perfect in your weakness
how amazing is that!

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

The Lord is preparing you Brother, accept that with tears and Joy and assurance in your heart

God Bless you and email me anytime day or night and we can talk.

Bro, I can't cry anymore. I just can't. I've done enough weeping and crying over this. In regards to repentance, I've got every criteria for every definition of repentance there is. I've wept, I am sorry for my sins, I am willing to turn from them, I don't want to sin again etc etc..

And that is what concerns me.. maybe my heart is so hard that it cannot cry anymore. I have to force myself to cry, and then it becomes about me...

My dear brother I don't doubt your salvation one bit. That is between you and the Lord. It isn't unusual to struggle over sin.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Look what the apostle Paul said.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Listen to what George Whitefield said:

"After we are renewed, yet we are renewed but in part, indwelling sin continues in us, there is a mixture of corruption in every one of our duties; so that after we are converted, were Jesus Christ only to accept us according to our work, our works would damn us, for we cannot put up a prayer but it is far from perfection which the moral Law requireth I do not know what you may think, but I can say that I cannot pray but I sin; I cannot preach to you others but I sin; I can do nothing without sin; and, as one expresseth it,my repentance wants to be repented of, and my tears to be washed in the precious blood of my dear Redeemer."

I don't base someone else salvation on my personal experience. All I know is that the night I called out to God to forgive me and save me for Jesus sake the doubts vanished and the Holy Spirit bore witness that I was a child of God. I have struggles with sin just like you do but God changed my heart that night and gave me new desires that I can't explain. If you have a desire to live for the Lord I see no reason for your doubts. You have probably read the following illustration but it is true.

There once was a man who was traveling on foot through a snowstorm in a strange country. He had to get to a certain town by nightfall and was somewhat perturbed when he came to an ice-covered river. How thick was the ice? Could he trust it to hold him? He began crawling on the ice on his stomach, inch-by-inch, tapping with his fingers. Sweat poured from his forehead. He was filled with the fear that at any moment he could plunge to an icy death.

An hour later, he had progressed only about 40 feet. He suddenly stopped crawling. He could hear singing! He turned his head to see a horse and cart, laden with people. The driver was singing at the top of his voice as he drove his cart across the ice. The driver knew that lake was solid ice and his faith was such that he had total confidence, with not an ounce of fear. Such are the solid promises of God.

Tears of Joy Brother , tears of Joy...they will come I know they will, the Lord is working through you, the devil is working his hardest to cause believers to doubt, because he cannot "unsave" them so his next best attack is to cause us to "doubt" as he knows his days are numbered. You are battered and bruised and bleeding, lying by the roadside and people are passing you by and pointing at you and wagging their fingers and shaking their heads, If I could Bro I would throw you over my shoulder and tend your wounds and set you down somewhere to heal. We are weak Bro, these bodies we drag around are flesh and infirmity, but one day soon Please God soon our weak battered weary fleshy bodies we will be raised in power

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

I am certain that one day soon the Lord will humble you as to his purpose for you, and the trial you are so apparently undergoing, and then Brother those tears of Joy will flow freely. Keep your eyes fixed Bro

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

You have a Good heart Brother, the Lord isn't looking at your mind, hes looking at your heart


Eph*6:10 ¶ Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph*6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph*6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph*6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph*6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph*6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph*6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph*6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph*6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Perhaps what C.W.Ruth had to say in ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION EXPLAINED may be of help, it was to me.

"I knew Jesus and He was precious to my soul; but I found something within that would not be sweet, and patient and kind; I did what I could to keep it down, but it was there; I besought Jesus to do something for me, and when I gave Him my will He came in, and took out all that would not be sweet and patient and kind, and then He shut the door." Thus testifies George Fox, the founder of the Society of Friends, more than two centuries ago. After he "knew Jesus" there was still "something within" which was antagonistic to the spiritual life implanted; nor was this experience peculiar to him alone.

Such is indeed the experience of every newborn and truly regenerated soul. While he may not understand the subject of entire sanctification, and perhaps never have heard of the "second blessing," yet a young convert seldom goes three months in the new found experience until he becomes painfully conscious that there remains a "something within" that hinders, and retards his spiritual progress, and often becomes a source of much distress.

The manifestations of that "something" vary, but frequently the first showing of it is in a man-fearing spirit, or anger, or a disposition to doubt, or an unforgiving spirit, etc. Then comes frequently the temptation, that perhaps, after all there had not been a true conversion or these things would not manifest themselves, and because they had not been properly instructed, many have wearied of the conflict and struggle and have cast away their confidence.

The Bible name for that "something" is "the carnal mind" which "is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be (Rom_8:7). Paul said of the Corinthians, "I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ," and said, because they were "babes in Christ," "I have fed you with milk," "ye are yet carnal," thus showing that the carnal mind is not eradicated in conversion, but still continues in those who are "in Christ" for a "babe in Christ" is just as certainly "in Christ" as an adult in Christ is in Christ.

Then again the Bible speaks of that "something" as "the flesh;" "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh and these are contrary the one to the other, so that ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Gal_5:17). Here the dual nature is clearly set forth, and the inward conflict indicated. While the man has "the Spirit" (which would not apply to a sinner) he also has a something antagonistic to the Spirit, called here "the flesh." But in Gal_5:24, we read, "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh," showing that the divine process for that "something" is not pardon, nor suppression, but crucifixion, which signifies that there is something to die and thus to be destroyed.

Other names given in the Bible for that "something" are, "sin that dwelleth in me," "the law of sin," "the body of this death," "the sin which doth so easily beset," "the sin of the world," "the body of sin," "our old man," etc., all of which have reference to that "something within" remaining after we are converted; in common parlance it is called "inbred sin," "depravity," "our evil nature," "original sin," our "Adamic nature," etc. All of these terms are synonymous, and refer to this identical "something within" which is the common heritage of every child of Adam. God's method and purpose is to "crucify" and "destroy" that something -- "our old man" -- so that we are "dead indeed unto sin." The sins committed may be pardoned, but this "something" cannot be pardoned for the simple reason we did not commit the same; it was born in us, and as the Anglican Confession says, "This infection of nature doth remain, yea, even in them that have been regenerated." But, thank God, there is power in Jesus' blood to eliminate and destroy it. "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin" (Rom_6:6). This deliverance is what Mr. Wesley termed "the second blessing, properly so called." This is sanctification, and is the privilege of every believer, as pardon is the privilege of every penitent sinner.

The book is worth reading, and if you are a STEP book fan there are various places on the internet to get it. All new knowledge is part of our growth, so don't stop looking, the answer will be shown to you the

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.