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illusionznc 02-19-2009 02:15 AM

Three Heavens
 
I recently came across an article speaking of "three heavens/levels of heaven" and I am trying to understand its meaning. There are questions in this article with answers by various people on the subject. I am having trouble understanding why two verses seem to conflict.

Genesis 1:1

"IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"

2 Corinthians 12:2

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the
body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to
the third heaven"

Genesis 1:1 does not refer to "heaven" in a plural sense, yet 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers to a third heaven which would seem to suggest there is more than one. I am troubled by the articles claim that the KJB uses an incorrect translation in that "heaven" should be plural "heavens" in Genesis 1:1.

I personally do not believe this to be an incorrect translation, but it seemed to be a valid discussion I would very much like some input on. I'm not one to profess to know more than others about the bible, so any help or clarification you could offer would be greatly appreciated. For reference, the article is given below.

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/a...of-heaven.html

chette777 02-19-2009 03:38 AM

The term third heaven is only used by Paul in 2Cor 12:2

these three heavens cannot be seen in Gen 1:1 because only one heaven existed at that time in eternity past. The other two are a result of Lucifer's fall, and God's recreating on the earth.

First, on the second day the firmament is created to contain Lucifer's sinful influence upon God's perfect heaven contained from polluting the whole of perfect heaven with darkness. It is not said to be good because anything that separates God from his creation cannot be trully good.

Then on day 4th day, inside the firmament the heaven is divided between the place where the stars will be held and one where our atmosphere will be.

As follows it is simple enough to understand that the first heaven is our atmosphere where the birds fly and the clouds cross. the second Heaven is our Universe where all the stars are said to be scattered, and is held within a container called the Firmament (some 900 billion light years across scientist tell us). And the Third Heaven is a term that represents the Abode of God beyond the firmament which is the original perfect Heaven of Gen 1:1.

Kiwi Christian 02-19-2009 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illusionznc (Post 15626)
2 Corinthians 12:2

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the
body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to
the third heaven"

Genesis 1:1 does not refer to "heaven" in a plural sense, yet 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers to a third heaven which would seem to suggest there is more than one.

2 Cori 12:2 more than "seems to suggest" more than one heaven, it states it to be. You can believe it, it is the main proof text for the teaching of 3 heavens.

This is how I was taught to remember the difference between the heavens:

The 1st heaven is where the birds fly.
2 Samuel 21:10 ¶And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water dropped upon them out of heaven, and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest on them by day, nor the beasts of the field by night.

The 2nd heaven is where the astronauts fly.
Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

The 3rd heaven is where the angels fly.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

So from now on when you read "heaven" in your Bible, you know it's not always a reference to where God's throne is!

illusionznc 02-19-2009 10:12 AM

Thank you for the replies! It has helped me understand it perfectly clear & reinforced that there is no error. I think last night when I had come across that article, satan used the opportunity to try & confuse me & cast doubt into me. But like a little coal that was burning weak, I returned to the fire & support of my fellow christians. And once again, satan flees as confusion is removed! Thanks so much! It is a blessing to be a part of a wonderful support group! Much love & peace in Christ! Amen.

MC1171611 02-19-2009 09:02 PM

Brother, the more you study that Book, and the more you let God show you the truth out of it, the more firm and resolute you'll become in knowing that it's true. It's awesome how those little "discrepancies" always have an explanation that's deeper than the average Modernist, scoffer, or Alexandrian can get ahold of: it takes the Holy Spirit, unquenched, to show us the truth and help us to understand the TRUTH of His word: "Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth.

AMEN! (sorry, I get excited about the Bible sometimes :D )

Winman 02-21-2009 03:23 PM

Quote:


First, on the second day the firmament is created to contain Lucifer's sinful influence upon God's perfect heaven contained from polluting the whole of perfect heaven with darkness. It is not said to be good because anything that separates God from his creation cannot be trully good.
I don't think I can go along with you on this one.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I am no Bible scholar at all, but to me, the fall of Satan had to occur after the sixth day, as scripture says that God saw every thing he had made, which would include Satan, and that it was VERY GOOD.

You also said;

Quote:

these three heavens cannot be seen in Gen 1:1 because only one heaven existed at that time in eternity past. The other two are a result of Lucifer's fall, and God's recreating on the earth.
I have trouble with the word "recreating" as if there are two seperate creations. This does not square with scripture as the Lord Jesus said,

Mark 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

The Lord here mentions only one creation (singular), and it was the six day creation week wherein Adam and Eve were created. And beginning means just that, the beginning of creation, so there was not a creation before that.

stephanos 02-21-2009 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 15628)
The term third heaven is only used by Paul in 2Cor 12:2

these three heavens cannot be seen in Gen 1:1 because only one heaven existed at that time in eternity past. The other two are a result of Lucifer's fall, and God's recreating on the earth.

First, on the second day the firmament is created to contain Lucifer's sinful influence upon God's perfect heaven contained from polluting the whole of perfect heaven with darkness. It is not said to be good because anything that separates God from his creation cannot be trully good.

Perhaps we should remain in the Sciptures Chette? If you are going to make blanket statments such as these you will have to back them up with a book chapter and verse to substanciate your "theory".

illusionznc, don't you believe this Gap theory nonsense for a second. If you want to know more about what these folks teach, and why it is a gross error I'd suggest you get Kent Hovind's Creation Seminar (which can be viewed here: http://drdino.com/media-categories.php?c=seminars He talks about the errors of the Gap theory in Seminar video 2 "Garden of Eden") and Weston Fields book "Unformed and Unfilled" (I am not endorsing their corrections from the Hebrew!) which can be purchased here: http://www.amazon.com/Unformed-Unfil.../dp/0890514232

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

chette777 02-22-2009 08:00 PM

Vs 31 is still correct even though he didn't call day two good. the creation of the firmament was not called good for the reasons I stated. but the purpose of the firmament was a good thing. for it served the purpose of God for which he created it therefore being good.

Stephanos, please be careful. you may agree with Kent Hovind but you are learning this from a man who blatantly did not obey Scriptures and was convicted of his sin of disobedience Roms 13 he refused to submit to the governing authority by paying his taxes. god is not against that and we should pay our taxes or how else can the Ordained Govt. I often tell my people if a Christian is in disobedience in one area of Scripture how can they claim to have enlightenment form God on his word in other areas. Kent has still not repented of tax evasion. self judgement is very important and when a man refuses too the Holy ghost id greiev or eventually quenched. so don't give Kent to much credit or honor for he was a sinner who got caught and not is paying for his sin of which he still will not confess and repent. what does that tell you about a Chrisitan.

Persoally I don't agree 100 percent with Kent, nor do I agree at all with the view that allows for Evolution. I have a view as do others that incorporates a perfect heaven and earth created in Eternity past, that Lucifer brought judgement of sin upon the earth when he rebelled in eternity past. His duty may have been to build a glorious throne for The Lamb and his pride got to him and he claimed the lambs throne for himself.

Kents view on when Angels were created may not be correct and the verses he uses are out of context. We beleive in a 6 day creation event iWhere God creates the earth anew for the purpose of introducing his next major player inthe heavenlies, MAN. And we beleive the sons of God (devils on the earth) not only cohabited with women but were responsible for creating a giant races of mythologial type creatures in an attmpt to pervert Gods creation. Reptiles that live for long periods would grow very large that is scientifically true today.

So there are no gap and gap theories (more than one) you need to get more balanced on that.

I beleive the last chapters of the Bible show us the completion of Gods purpose for the Earth that was created perfect and had seen corruption by Lucifer and fallen man. God purpose was to have a place for his Son's throne for all eternity. that is the purpose of the earth. man was addded later to help be part of the service and worship of His Son on the earth and throughout heaven. the Bible teaches it from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22

chette777 02-22-2009 08:52 PM

Stephanos,

When you down play one persons view for your own (and others) you sound like an Obamaite deomcrat. you nor Kent are the final Authority,

Let Winman discover and read all the views not just Kent Hovin's and yours. not everybody holds to evolution gap theory or to the no gap theory of Hovin. there is another Gap theory your not seeing yet. so stop slamming someones view because you don't agree. give room for error's of mens works.

In order for Kent to postulate his view his must make Satan Created in the Six day creation and sinning just before Adam is created. (No Biblical proof but that is what he teaches).

The Garden of God is said to be in heaven and God created a garden on the earth east of Eden. you need to learn the difference.

I have Hovin whole set of teachings on DVD. there are planty of times he takes some scriptures out of context. So don't tell me to use only Scripture when your god Kent Hovin doesn't use them or misuses them in his teachings.

You are not balanced in understanding what Kent has taught or in the True Gap theory (where there is not evolution). I have gone through his teaching thouroughly and found some errors. so give others some credit as to doing some home work. I Test the spirits to see what so ever they teach is true. by going to the word of God as a Berean.

The Holy Ghost teaches us all things. if you see the whole purpose of the Earth from eternity past as found in Rev 22 then you can see there was a perfect earth in eternity past. just that in between Gen 1:1 eternity past to Rev 21 etrnity future, there was a whole lot of trouble goin on. so wake up and smell the coffee and get real.

stephanos 02-22-2009 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 15743)
Vs 31 is still correct even though he didn't call day two good. the creation of the firmament was not called good for the reasons I stated. but the purpose of the firmament was a good thing. for it served the purpose of God for which he created it therefore being good.

Stephanos, please be careful. you may agree with Kent Hovind but you are learning this from a man who blatantly did not obey Scriptures and was convicted of his sin of disobedience Roms 13 he refused to submit to the governing authority by paying his taxes. god is not against that and we should pay our taxes or how else can the Ordained Govt. I often tell my people if a Christian is in disobedience in one area of Scripture how can they claim to have enlightenment form God on his word in other areas. Kent has still not repented of tax evasion. self judgement is very important and when a man refuses too the Holy ghost id greiev or eventually quenched. so don't give Kent to much credit or honor for he was a sinner who got caught and not is paying for his sin of which he still will not confess and repent. what does that tell you about a Chrisitan.

Persoally I don't agree 100 percent with Kent, nor do I agree at all with the view that allows for Evolution. I have a view as do others that incorporates a perfect heaven and earth created in Eternity past, that Lucifer brought judgement of sin upon the earth when he rebelled in eternity past. His duty may have been to build a glorious throne for The Lamb and his pride got to him and he claimed the lambs throne for himself.

Kents view on when Angels were created may not be correct and the verses he uses are out of context. We beleive in a 6 day creation event iWhere God creates the earth anew for the purpose of introducing his next major player inthe heavenlies, MAN. And we beleive the sons of God (devils on the earth) not only cohabited with women but were responsible for creating a giant races of mythologial type creatures in an attmpt to pervert Gods creation. Reptiles that live for long periods would grow very large that is scientifically true today.

So there are no gap and gap theories (more than one) you need to get more balanced on that.

I beleive the last chapters of the Bible show us the completion of Gods purpose for the Earth that was created perfect and had seen corruption by Lucifer and fallen man. God purpose was to have a place for his Son's throne for all eternity. that is the purpose of the earth. man was addded later to help be part of the service and worship of His Son on the earth and throughout heaven. the Bible teaches it from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22

All I'm saying is that it would be nice if we stay in the Scriptures on this. Your theory of a Gap is not biblical. NO ONE who reads the Bible will come to the conclusions you have. People have to be told of this "gap" to believe it. Besides, your theory places sin and death before Adam!

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12 KJV)

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:14 KJV)


There are many more issues with this theory of yours. So please refrain from making statements about things that are not in the Bible as if they are there. illusionznc is new to this stuff and doesn't need to be indoctrinated into something that is mere speculation at best and a complete heresy at worst.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

chette777 02-22-2009 11:08 PM

it is too biblical just as Biblical as Kent Hovins. you just need to study it out more.

Plus IllusionZC should be allowed to see and hear all sides of this issue not just yours and Kents. without your subjective opinion about what others believe about a Gap theory that you have not researched.

By the way is not just my Theory or a theory of mine, it is held by many professing baptist, and Evangelical Christians and it has just as much Bible backing where Bible is clear as yours and Kents. so stop making it sound Like it is a fringe movement on the right (quoting Obamaites). it is a Gap Theory that is old earth, with a young (6000 year) creation on it. no evolution of species as one group has, Lucifer was created in the beginning at the time of the original Perfect Earth not during the 6 days creation of things pertaining to God new creation Man. for they were there when it was created perfect singing for joy in Gen 1:1.

Now without (I am withholding them) giving you the addresses you search out the scriptures I am referring to and read them carefully giving heed to the wording and chronological events around the words in those verse. and you can only come to one conclusion. there was something going one before the 6 day creation events in eternity past.

the area of what Lucifer was doing on the earth in eternity past is not so clear but knowing the whole purpose was for the Lambs Throne from Eternity puts most of it in perspective. this throne on earth is God original purpose for the Earth and it is Biblical for the out working of that is found throughout scripture. As God brought man intothepicture to chose out a people to seve both inthe Temple (Israel) and in Heaven (you and I).

that would make two Gap theories (the Christians Evolutionist hold one, and I, Baptist and Evengelical hold the other) out there, plus one no gap theory (kent). we don't argue that the current creation of earth is not young. We hold that the earthis older, and the 6day creation of the current state was done after Lucifers fall and Gods judgement onthe earth. that's why the earth was covered with water in Gen one verse two. two scriptures concernig the flood one refers to the judgement of the men at Noahs flood and the other to Lucifer's judgemntal flood.

Winman 02-23-2009 04:29 PM

First of all, I have been a student of Evolution for over 40 years, I am not new to this subject whatsoever. I do not believe in the Gap Theory, I believe the very simple and straightforward 6 days creation account in Genesis.

Genesis 2:1 is a continuation of Chapter 1 as indicated by the word "Thus".

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

And "and all the host of them" to me, says that the angels including Satan were included in the 6 day creation.

So I believe Satan fell sometime later. But Satan was still perfect on the 6th day.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

So, before Satan rebelled against God, he was perfect. So God could call his entire 6 day creation VERY GOOD.

As to the dinosaurs and such, I believe they lived with man. There has been much evidence for this, including recent discoveries of dino's with soft tissue. I also believe the dino's survived after Noah's time and this accounts for the many stories of dragons from many various civilizations across the centuries.

I do believe the early dinos may have been much larger, living many hundreds of years as the did the early patriarchs. Dinos after Noah's time may have progressively grown smaller as their lifespans shortened. And I think man himself killed off most of the dinos. Almost all stories of dragons tell of brave knights who went out to kill these dangerous monsters. Now, we have been taught from an early age that these stories were just myths, but men just a few hundred years ago took them quite seriously. That is the evolutionists who want you to believe the world is billions of years old and that the dinos lived over 75 million years ago, well before man (in their theory).

I happen to like Kent Hovind and have spent many hours watching his videos. I think he is a fantastic teacher and debater. I love the fact that he has taught and debated at universities across the nation. It is good to see young people who have been indoctrinated with the poison and lies of evolution see the truth of the Bible.

And you can bet he made lots of enemies in the secular educational establishment. I promise you, this had much to do with his legal problems. There were many folks in high places out to get him.

Now, I don't know about his tax problems personally, I doubt many really know. But the government is not supposed to tax the church, and I am sure this is where his problems probably arose. He probably felt he was not legally obligated to pay many of these taxes. And he could be correct. But there were very important people out to get him.

I would say to you that you should reexamine this Gap theory. It is not needed. The creation account is very straightforward and easy to understand. There is no Gap mentioned. The folks that believe in the Gap are falling for the false lie of evolution that the world is very old. So, they have to find a place to put these billions of supposed years of evolution.

But evolution is 100% false. The world is young.

stephanos 02-23-2009 06:10 PM

I am not going to argue the Gap theory here in this thread. I just would like to see people stick with the Scriptures in this thread. If there was a Gap, which there wasn't!, God left it out. So lets keep to the Sciptures that God gave us. Thank you.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

chette777 02-23-2009 08:30 PM

well you are welcome to your opinion Stephanos.

Not all of what Kent Hovin has presented is scripturaly based.

Study out all three views then decide. you haven't done that yet so don't make conclusions that he is right.

But to lead people to believe his view is the only view.

so I will say it again.

We do not believe in Evolution in any fashion

We believe in an old earth and Heaven that was perfect. Lucifer falls brings judgement on the earth i.e. why it is covered with water. 2Pe 3:5, 6 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: This is where The spirit of God was over the waters in Gen1:2

And we believe in a literal 6 day creation by God for his new purpose which included creatures and man. this is the world which we NOW live in and was later flooded again by God. floods were used in the Bible as judgements. 2Ptr3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept. There was no new creation of the world after the flood of Noah. But there was a new creation after the flood that destroyed the earth when darkness was brought into Gods perfect creation by Lucifer.

We believe that Reptiles though never mentioned in the 6 days creation directly, may have grown to large sizes during Adams life time along with trees and other things and animals until the flood. they are found in the fossil records.

We believe that if we are wrong no harm done for it is not essential to believe or not to believe in a Gap theory. this is just an amusing topic by which we as Brothers in Christ can enjoy fellowship and sharpen one another.

not attack each other Stephanos.

chette777 02-23-2009 09:02 PM

Winman,

Kent Hovin is not a church nor is his organization, Para church at best. Every person receiving money from a church or non profit organzation is supposed to report it as income (that would fall under Romans 13) whether on a W2 or 1040 or not. You must file if it is place on a W2 or a 1040 by the church or NPO. IRS is very clear on it.

Cash gifts deleivered to your hand by an individual as a gift do not count. but churches that collect money for missionaries and other groups and then pass it on to them MUST file a 1040 for the person or group receiving it. that is the law of the Governing authority. Also all employees and non employess receiving monthly or weekly allowances from the church or NPO, that is to be reported yearly on a W2 or 1040 form. and the person is required to file a tax form.

the IRS issue had nothing to do with the church but that those receving money through the non profit org who were not paying taxes. and the fact that his NOP didn't report that these peopel Himself and others were receving income from the org as prescribed by law of the governing authority show he was in clear violation of the Governing Authority.

I have no doubt people in high places were after him his teaching was 99% true. But if he had done things according to the LAW of the Governing Authority (Romans 13) he would have never got caught in disobedience.

But know this, Kent is also known for some Preterist views in some of his theology, and to be part of a movement to get America under Bible Commandments. (DeMarr's group)

Part of that movements view is not to pay taxes. First off, it is wrong for any Christian man to teach it, for it would place another Christian man under desobediane to Gods word in Romans 13 if he followed that teaching of not paying taxes.

I hope that clears up a little for you on the tax issue. the Moral of the Story stay in line with the Law so when they come they have nothing which to claim aginast you. but will praise you for being good. 1Pe 3:16 ¶ Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

stephanos 02-23-2009 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 15803)
Winman,

Kent Hovin is not a church nor is his organization, Para church at best. Every person receiving money from a church or non profit organzation is supposed to report it as income (that would fall under Romans 13) whether on a W2 or 1040 or not. You must file if it is place on a W2 or a 1040 by the church or NPO. IRS is very clear on it.

Cash gifts deleivered to your hand by an individual as a gift do not count. but churches that collect money for missionaries and other groups and then pass it on to them MUST file a 1040 for the person or group receiving it. that is the law of the Governing authority. Also all employees and non employess receiving monthly or weekly allowances from the church or NPO, that is to be reported yearly on a W2 or 1040 form. and the person is required to file a tax form.

the IRS issue had nothing to do with the church but that those receving money through the non profit org who were not paying taxes. and the fact that his NOP didn't report that these peopel Himself and others were receving income from the org as prescribed by law of the governing authority show he was in clear violation of the Governing Authority.

I have no doubt people in high places were after him his teaching was 99% true. But if he had done things according to the LAW of the Governing Authority (Romans 13) he would have never got caught in disobedience.

But know this, Kent is also known for some Preterist views in some of his theology, and to be part of a movement to get America under Bible Commandments. (DeMarr's group)

Part of that movements view is not to pay taxes. First off, it is wrong for any Christian man to teach it, for it would place another Christian man under desobediane to Gods word in Romans 13 if he followed that teaching of not paying taxes.

I hope that clears up a little for you on the tax issue. the Moral of the Story stay in line with the Law so when they come they have nothing which to claim aginast you. but will praise you for being good. 1Pe 3:16 ¶ Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

I am not concerned with what Kent Hovind does or did with the money that he was given by his supporters. Kent Hovind is not an idiot, and he doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would just blatantly ignore a rightly divided doctrine of the Scriptures. But anyways, the point I wanted to make (I really didn't want to get into it over this issue) was that I don't like the way you share the Gap theory so matter of factly. You are a very knowledgable Chette and some folks will believe what you say just because you said it. I'd like to see you keep that in mind when you share things like the Gap theory.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

chette777 02-24-2009 02:03 AM

that message was for Winman not you. and if you don't consider a mans character to matter much. well your in good hand s with Obama.

We are to be concerned with how men of God handle themselves for they cause people to blaspheme our Lord by their actions. and if they error in one place they could be in error in another

Why can I not share my View so matter of factly Kent Hovin Does (errors and all). you see it is not the Gap theory anymore with you it is who is saying it.

Well I pay my taxes Brother. I do my best to be sure if any Police, Sheriffs, Marshall's, IRS, FBI, CIA or SS agents come knocking because someone complains about me I have nothing to fear.

And go back an listen to Kent on his explanation for the firmament. he claims it is what separates our Atmosphere from outer space. funny though the scriptures say that the stars, moon and sun are spread out in the firmament not our Atmosphere.

MC1171611 02-24-2009 11:48 AM

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

(emphasis mine)

The "sons of God," the angels, were present when God created the earth (Gen. 1:1). The Gap has absolutely nothing to do with Evolution, unlike Kent Hovind's ramblings. He has some awesome stuff, but the fact that he has to run to "The Hebrew" to "explain" what "without form and void" means is retarded.

Genesis 1:1 - a single Heaven

Current universe - three Heavens

We've been over this before: either God created one heaven and a destroyed earth and proceeded to fix it and multiply the heaven into three, or there are things that happened that aren't directly delineated in the Genesis account of creation. The Book talks about the creation and re-creation in many places: that's part of Bible study.

stephanos 02-24-2009 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611 (Post 15823)
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

(emphasis mine)

The "sons of God," the angels, were present when God created the earth (Gen. 1:1). The Gap has absolutely nothing to do with Evolution, unlike Kent Hovind's ramblings. He has some awesome stuff, but the fact that he has to run to "The Hebrew" to "explain" what "without form and void" means is retarded.

Genesis 1:1 - a single Heaven

Current universe - three Heavens

We've been over this before: either God created one heaven and a destroyed earth and proceeded to fix it and multiply the heaven into three, or there are things that happened that aren't directly delineated in the Genesis account of creation. The Book talks about the creation and re-creation in many places: that's part of Bible study.

First of all, I believe Kent Hovind is pretty secure in his faith that the King James is inerrant and infallible (he does push the KJB in EVERY video after all...). What he does is what we do when dealing with Bible correctors. We go to the Greek and Hebrew to shew that it is indeed flawless. Kent Hovind does this to shew that you can't go to the Hebrew to disprove a literal 6 day creation. Also, he wasn't the one that came up with the words "Unformed and Unfilled", Weston Fields did. Anywho...

All these points in support of a Gap have been Scripturally dealt with by Kent Hovind and a dozen other authors who don't subscribe to any Gap theory. But since this thread is about the three heavens, I'll address that subject from a non Gap theory, purely Scriptural point of view. (This is not going to be an attack on the Gap theory. This is meant to bring the thread back on topic)

First off, let's clear up one thing real quick. God made the heavens and the earth in six literal days.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. (Genesis 1:31-2:1 KJV)

We can conclude from this passage of Scripture that God made the heavens (plural) and the earth (singular) in six days. Not only were the heavens and earth finished in these six days, but also the host of them as well. Then to satisfy another Gap theory point, He concludes that every thing that he had made was very good. This would include the host as well...

Secondly, God is a divider, in Genesis 1:1 God made one heaven with that one earth.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1 KJV)

He then divided this singular heaven:

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

So, here we see that God again divided the heaven further. And we can get a better idea of what one of these is with this verse:

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (Genesis 1:14-16 KJV)

So as we can see, God put lights in the upper part (it's interesting how "he made the stars also" seems to be an after thought), therefore we can conclude the other heaven is the lower part, and is indeed our atmosphere...

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. (Genesis 1:20 KJV)

... since fowl cannot fly in outer-space.

Now the third heaven is described as being above the dual heavens we've just addressed:

Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. (Psalms 148:3-4 KJV)

And that this third heaven is seperated from the other two by another large body of water, which is further defined here:

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. (Revelation 4:6 KJV)

You know what else looks like crystal, and is still water? Ice. I believe that this sea of glass like unto crystal is a large body of ice which separates God's throne from the expanse of outer-space.

Well there you have it. A fairly simple, straight forward, and purely Scriptural explanation of the three heavens. I don't believe I've deviated from what is the plain text given in the KJB, and I don't believe I've allowed my theories to mingle with what is evident in these passages. I will add that there is much more to be said on this subject, and that yes, the Gappers do have some interesting ideas about some things, but they are unable to come to any conclusions without some serious stretching. My goal as a student of the Holy Bible is to not have to stretch anything in the Scriptures, but to simply read, understand, and believe what is plainly given.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

Winman 02-24-2009 06:44 PM

Chette

I have believed in a literal six consecutive 24 hour day creation since I got saved way back in 1964, WAY before the internet or before I ever heard of Kent Hovind. While I listen to many pastors and teachers, if it does not line up with the scriptures, I disregard it.

And that's the problem with the Gap theory. Folks allow so called "science" to intimidate them. I don't care what these "intellectuals" think, I listen to God's Word. But many are intimidated and try to reconcile the Bible with the false time scale taught by evolution. There is no gap mentioned in Genesis.

Biblestudent 02-24-2009 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 15845)
First of all, I believe Kent Hovind is pretty secure in his faith that the King James is inerrant and infallible (he does push the KJB in EVERY video after all...). What he does is what we do when dealing with Bible correctors. We go to the Greek and Hebrew to shew that it is indeed flawless. Kent Hovind does this to shew that you can't go to the Hebrew to disprove a literal 6 day creation.

I'm a fan of Kent Hovind, even though I'm a gapper, especially that he uses and claims to be believe in the KJV. However, I would disagree, Brother Stephen, that he really believes the King James is inerrant. He DID go to the Greek and Hebrew in one of his videos and corrected the King James. (I don't have the time to look for that portion, and I hope somebody can help me find it.)

Biblestudent 02-24-2009 11:35 PM

To say that there's no gap because it's not mentioned IN GENESIS 1 is like saying that God did not create angels because they're not mentioned IN GENESIS 1.

Can anyone prove that God created angels in Genesis 1?
Non-gappers have to use other passages to prove the creation in Genesis 1, just exactly like the gappers do to prove the gap in Genesis 1.

A gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 is as possible as the gap between Genesis 4:1 and Genesis 4:2.

Now, back the topic of this thread ("Three Heavens"), I believe there are only three heavens, but I heard another Bible teacher teaching about the possibility of "seven heavens" since the Bible sometimes mention somewhere about "the heaven and the heaven of heavens". Has anyone heard of this?

chette777 02-24-2009 11:36 PM

yes that is true biblestudent. I made the same observations of Hovin changing scripture word meaning to fit his understanding almost on every one of the dvd's I have. Maybe you would like to help see thread on the Non-Evolutionary Gap Theory

the heaven and heaven of heaven I believe is in reference to the one below the firmament and the one above which is God's pure heaven.

Kiwi Christian 02-25-2009 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 15882)
Now, back the topic of this thread ("Three Heavens"), I believe there are only three heavens, but I heard another Bible teacher teaching about the possibility of "seven heavens" since the Bible sometimes mention somewhere about "the heaven and the heaven of heavens". Has anyone heard of this?

The phrase "the heaven of heavens" is found 5 times in the Bible. I believe it is a reference to the 3rd and highest heaven, where the Lord's throne is:

1 Kings 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

As for seven different heavens, I don't believe that's scriptural.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Heaven

chette777 02-25-2009 03:42 AM

for a clearer understanding of the Gap theory held by some of us that does not include Theistic Evolution, Progressive Creationism or Day/age reformist theology view go here.

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1045

it is a work in progress. you will see we agree with a majority of what young earth proponents teach with only a couple differences.


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