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Steve Schwenke 07-11-2009 05:20 PM

Pastors/Shepherds???
 
I would like to discuss this idea.

THis was from Diligent in the I Cor. 3:16-17 thread:
Quote:

You are not in a church, you are in a forum. And nobody here usurps Christ's role as shepherd of his flock. You imply above that you are somehow in a position to be a shepherd here. Pretty strange.

Read 1Pe 5:1-4 in the King James Version. The flock is God's, and the elders are to feed it, not act as lords over it. Only modern versions tell elders to shepherd the flock.
I am not interested in responding to the attack made in the first paragraph, although Diligent misunderstood my point made via illustration.

Is it unscriptural to "shepherd" the flock of God?
What is a pastor?
Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

It looks to me that a Pastor IS a shepherd by definition. consider Webster's 1828:
Pastor - noun
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of the church and congregation, whose duty it is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the Christian religion.


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

So we ARE pastors...

I Peter 5:1 ∂ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over Godís heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5 ∂ Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

It appears to me from this passage that the elders are to feed and lead the flock (sheep!) just as a shepherd would. The appeal is that we are to treat the flock as the Great Shepherd would; in other words, we are shepherds underneath the chief shepherd.
We are not cattle-drivers; we are shepherds.

I am curious to hear from others on this subject. :)

Brother Tim 07-11-2009 06:13 PM

I think of myself not as a shepherd, but as a senior sheep. I have learned to watch the Shepherd as He shows me where the better grass is and where the waters flow safe. I encourage the younger sheep to follow me as I follow the Shepherd, thus being an "ensample" to the flock. Remember the unique meaning of the word "ensample" versus "example".

Winman 07-11-2009 08:34 PM

Quote:

Is it unscriptural to "shepherd" the flock of God?
No, it is scriptural. However I do think this applies to a local body of believers.

My old pastor used to complain a little about these TV preachers. Folks would send off their money and write letters for help. He used to say, "Try calling one of these fellows when you are in the hospital and see if he shows up!":)

Steve Schwenke 07-11-2009 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 23748)
No, it is scriptural. However I do think this applies to a local body of believers.

My old pastor used to complain a little about these TV preachers. Folks would send off their money and write letters for help. He used to say, "Try calling one of these fellows when you are in the hospital and see if he shows up!":)

:amen:

tonybones2112 07-12-2009 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Schwenke (Post 23731)
I would like to discuss this idea.

THis was from Diligent in the I Cor. 3:16-17 thread:


I am not interested in responding to the attack made in the first paragraph, although Diligent misunderstood my point made via illustration.

Is it unscriptural to "shepherd" the flock of God?
What is a pastor?
Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

It looks to me that a Pastor IS a shepherd by definition. consider Webster's 1828:
Pastor - noun
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of the church and congregation, whose duty it is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the Christian religion.


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

So we ARE pastors...

I Peter 5:1 ∂ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over Godís heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5 ∂ Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

It appears to me from this passage that the elders are to feed and lead the flock (sheep!) just as a shepherd would. The appeal is that we are to treat the flock as the Great Shepherd would; in other words, we are shepherds underneath the chief shepherd.
We are not cattle-drivers; we are shepherds.

I am curious to hear from others on this subject. :)

Steve, I think the point Brandon tried to make that was seen as an "attack", which was not an "attack", is that this whole website is not a "church" in the traditional sense. It's an "ecclesia", a gathering, of believers in Jesus Christ, yes, it is a "church" in a way, but Brandon Stagg's is the "pastor" of this group. His daily bread, all or part, is earned by his authorship of the SWORDSEARCHER KJV Bible program, which this forum is one part of the website for. This website and it's moderation method is entirely within Scripture and within the laws of capitalism: We do not contribute financially to the upkeep of this site, we are all guests by Brandon's grace. This whole website is a private venture and not subject to a rule by a "deacon's board". I have no problems with Brandon's moderation of this forum, he has made a widely diverse group of people welcome to a forum, but when he has to rule with an iron hand he's on it like white on rice. There are some Christians on this forum who are new Christians or not fully grounded in God's word, and Brandon does not allow Lawkeepers, Unitarians, Universalists, cults, and most of all, those who criticize and "correct" the word of God, to impair or cast doubt in these young Christian's growth, and for that I think I am most grateful to him for in moderation. We have as forum members Matthew from Austrailia(Bibleprotector), Will Kenney, and George Andersen, three of the top sources for information on defense of the KJV.

My point is that this forum is not a Baptist church, it's private property. many on the forum are users of the SWORDSWEARCHER program. The free ONLINE BIBLE program has a neat, almost instantaneous word search feature, the free E-SWORD program has multiple corrupt version feature, but for pure KJV Bible study there is no finer computer program, free or commercial,, than SWORDSEARCHER. Another feature of this website is that it provides links and much study material for the defense of the KJV as inspired Scripture.

This forum does not need multiple moderation. Brandon has done, is now, and will continue to do a good job, so I see no need for multiple moderation. He has his standards of rule, many I agree with, and most of all he protects his members and stands up for them, particularly, as mentioned before, the new Christians and those not fully grounded yet.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Steve Schwenke 07-12-2009 07:09 AM

Tony, I am not sure where you are coming from.
I was accused of "reading people's hearts..." etc in the I Cor. 3 thread.
I responded that as a Pastor (which I am) I am in a position where I must make judgment on a continual basis. I never said that I was a pastor or the pastor on this forum. I have no idea where you and Brandon got that thought. I was making an illustration.

I find it interesting that Brandon can (falsely) accuse me of trying to "pastor" on this forum, while he gets to be the "pastor." hmmm - not sure I follow that!
If you had read my original post in response to Brandon on the I Cor. 3 thread, I have already addressed this! I was making an illustration. I guess there are too many people on this forum that have "kneejerk" reactions, without any regard to anyone but their "buddies."
I am here for the edification.

Now,
How does your response answer my OP?
My OP is about the leadership in a local church.
Brandon says that it is only the new versions that say that a pastor "shepherds" a church. I disagree. The word "pastor" means "shepherd" so by definition we are shepherds, and as such must "shepherd" the church.

Biblestudent 07-13-2009 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 23763)
We do not contribute financially to the upkeep of this site, we are all guests by Brandon's grace. This whole website is a private venture and not subject to a rule by a "deacon's board". I have no problems with Brandon's moderation of this forum, he has made a widely diverse group of people welcome to a forum, but when he has to rule with an iron hand he's on it like white on rice.

This makes me better understand the feelings of our diligent moderator. Thanks!

Blessed2BeeAlive 07-14-2009 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Schwenke (Post 23731)

Is it unscriptural to "shepherd" the flock of God?
What is a pastor?


Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

It looks to me that a Pastor IS a shepherd by definition. consider Webster's 1828:
Pastor - noun
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of the church and congregation, whose duty it is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the Christian religion.


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

So we ARE pastors...

I Peter 5:1 ∂ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over Godís heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5 ∂ Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

It appears to me from this passage that the elders are to feed and lead the flock (sheep!) just as a shepherd would. The appeal is that we are to treat the flock as the Great Shepherd would; in other words, we are shepherds underneath the chief shepherd.

We are not cattle-drivers; we are shepherds.

I am curious to hear from others on this subject. :)

:amen: I believe it is pretty plain & simple & to the point.
The Shephard (Pastor) is to watch over his sheep, to feed & to care for them.

I find this verse very interesting:
Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

I do not know what makes a shepherd do this: after all I believe that it is the Lord that adds to the church, so why would the shepherd subtract from the church?

We are all members of one body, so this Bible verse is very interesting
:
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

I believe we are to edify & love one-another, that the members may grow & understand how we are expected to be Christ-like in our walk.

Forrest 07-15-2009 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Schwenke (Post 23731)
I would like to discuss this idea.

THis was from Diligent in the I Cor. 3:16-17 thread:


I am not interested in responding to the attack made in the first paragraph, although Diligent misunderstood my point made via illustration.

Is it unscriptural to "shepherd" the flock of God?
What is a pastor?
Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

It looks to me that a Pastor IS a shepherd by definition. consider Webster's 1828:
Pastor - noun
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of the church and congregation, whose duty it is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the Christian religion.


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

So we ARE pastors...

I Peter 5:1 ∂ The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over Godís heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5 ∂ Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

It appears to me from this passage that the elders are to feed and lead the flock (sheep!) just as a shepherd would. The appeal is that we are to treat the flock as the Great Shepherd would; in other words, we are shepherds underneath the chief shepherd.
We are not cattle-drivers; we are shepherds.

I am curious to hear from others on this subject. :)

It seems to me the scripture is clear who the SHEPHERD is and whose FLOCK it is.

Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

I Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over Godís heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

I guess verse 4 is where the idea comes from that since Jesus is the chief Shepherd, the Pastor must be the plain ole shepherd. But I do not see scripture ever referring to a pastor as a shepherd. That's a stretch in my understanding. I agree though, the Bible is clear...feed the flock.

tonybones2112 07-16-2009 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 23892)
This makes me better understand the feelings of our diligent moderator. Thanks!

You're welcome my friend. I suppose I'll be known as a "Staggsite" now. No problem.

First, we all know Brandon can take care of himself, but I'm going to speak for a friend and brother when I feel led to, and this time was one I was led to.

I found the author of this thread to be very subtle and then flat deny his insinuations when confronted with clear dissertation. The entire gist of the message was that Brandon was not moderating the forum in that there seemed to be doctrines taught here the author of the thread didn't care for. So we need a "board" of moderators. Right.

This is the forum for the SWORDSEARCHER Bible program's website, a commercial product, and not subject to any democratic perambulations. This is a private website. At the same time the moderator has governed it in a fair and Scriptural manner. Those who "correct" the Scriptures or teach false doctrine are disciplined with the methods of the moderator's discretion. That goes for me as much as it did for Tandi and Nehemiah. Otherwise, we are free to spread our wings so to speak, teach, be taught, and comment. I love it here. I just need a computer that works dependably.

Grace and peace my friend

Tony

Diligent 07-16-2009 08:34 AM

Just a point for clarification:

This forum isn't really a SwordSearcher forum. I do link to the SwordSearcher web site because it is likely to be useful to a lot of people who would be interested in this forum, and it also pays the bills. I don't want someone to get the idea that they have to support SwordSearcher in order to use/support this forum.

SwordSearcher also has a pretty wide range of users -- I expect only a small subset of those users would feel "at home" in this forum. SwordSearcher actually has its own forum which is tame and quiet compared to this one. :) (And I like it that way.)

That being said, I certain do appreciate the folks who talk about SwordSearcher and support it. :)

Brother Tim 07-16-2009 02:46 PM

and anyone who has not tried SwordSearcher has missed the best Bible study tool available today for a faithful, serious Bible student.

[this is the testimony of a regular user of the software and not that of a paid actor :)]

Amanda S. 07-20-2009 12:38 PM

Quote:

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

I guess verse 4 is where the idea comes from that since Jesus is the chief Shepherd, the Pastor must be the plain ole shepherd. But I do not see scripture ever referring to a pastor as a shepherd. That's a stretch in my understanding. I agree though, the Bible is clear...feed the flock.
No study whatsoever here, but I was reminded of a verse I read earlier today...

1Sa 17:20 And David rose up early in the morning, and left the sheep with a keeper, and took, and went, as Jesse had commanded him; and he came to the trench, as the host was going forth to the fight, and shouted for the battle.

Probably nothing to at all with the discussion :) but David was the shepherd yet gave the care of his sheep over to another...a keeper.

Amanda S. 07-20-2009 12:48 PM

Another thought for those of us who believe in a "universal Church"...I do think that a Pastor is the shepherd over his local church assembly while Christ is the Chief Shepherd over all believers.

Acts 20:28-29 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.


Ultimately Christ is the shepherd, but as David did with his flock, the Lord has entrusted His flock that have put themselves into a local church under the pastor's spiritual guidance and care.

greenbear 07-20-2009 07:27 PM

Where do you get the practice of one "pastor" above "deacons" ruling over the church? What is a pastor's role? Where is a pastor described as a "shepherd" over the church in the dispensation of grace?

Amanda S. 07-20-2009 08:18 PM

greenbear,

Are you asking because you don't know or are you trying to make a point later? If so, I know the answer...I think you know the answer, so feel free to make your point :)

greenbear 07-20-2009 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24481)
greenbear,

Are you asking because you don't know or are you trying to make a point later? If so, I know the answer...I think you know the answer, so feel free to make your point :)

Please read these threads. I am in full agreement with what brother George has written, and of course what I wrote in my posts.

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1460

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1447&page=2

George wrote another post about jack-booted thugs that usurp Christ's and the Holy Spirit's place in the lives of believers but I can't find it now. It was a great post. It may be on a deleted thread.

Amanda S. 07-20-2009 08:55 PM

I read the first thread and at first glance it seemed right in line with what I believe. But a couple of statements in the notes on the Church sounded unfamiliar to me so I will give them more thought and let you know if I disagreed with anything :)

Great post George!

Forrest 07-21-2009 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24455)
...I do think that a Pastor is the shepherd over his local church assembly while Christ is the Chief Shepherd over all believers.

Acts 20:28-29 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.


Ultimately Christ is the shepherd, but as David did with his flock, the Lord has entrusted His flock that have put themselves into a local church under the pastor's spiritual guidance and care.

Sister Amanda, I know you agree. We should use the "words" that are given to us in the the inspired, infallible, preserved, Holy written word of God. The pastor is not identified or called a "shepherd," but he is called an "overseer" by scripture.

Amanda S. 07-21-2009 11:18 AM

Greetings Bro. Forrest,

Quote:

Sister Amanda, I know you agree. We should use the "words" that are given to us in the the inspired, infallible, preserved, Holy written word of God. The pastor is not identified or called a "shepherd," but he is called an "overseer" by scripture.
I will agree that we should use Biblical terms. We don't always because we are products of our society and we tend to pick up the lingo of the day. I heard a preacher once preach a sermon on this very subject. For instance you called God's Word inspired. Technically it is not inspired, but is given by inspiration. The word rapture does not appear in the Bible yet everyone know exactly what we are referring to. And there are others.

Having said that however, you said a pastor is called an overseer.

I Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


It's still not a stretch to call a pastor a shepherd.

Diligent 07-21-2009 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24503)
I will agree that we should use Biblical terms. We don't always because we are products of our society and we tend to pick up the lingo of the day. I heard a preacher once preach a sermon on this very subject. For instance you called God's Word inspired. Technically it is not inspired, but is given by inspiration. The word rapture does not appear in the Bible yet everyone know exactly what we are referring to. And there are others.

There is a big difference in this case. Whereas "rapture," "trinity," etc are non-Biblical words, the word "shepherd" is a Biblical word. Therefore, we can not be at liberty to assign that word to a person/office/doctrine that the Bible does not.

Forrest 07-21-2009 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24503)
Greetings Bro. Forrest,

I will agree that we should use Biblical terms. We don't always because we are products of our society and we tend to pick up the lingo of the day. I heard a preacher once preach a sermon on this very subject. For instance you called God's Word inspired. Technically it is not inspired, but is given by inspiration. The word rapture does not appear in the Bible yet everyone know exactly what we are referring to. And there are others.

Having said that however, you said a pastor is called an overseer.

I Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.


It's still not a stretch to call a pastor a shepherd.

Wrong. I said a pastor is referred to as an overseer based on the scripture you specifically referenced. In your post # 14 you are the one who quoted Acts 20:28-29, not me. The Bible does call the "Elder" an overseer not shepherd. My point? In my opinion, the pastor is never called a shepherd in the Bible. We should not call the Pastor of a church a shepherd when the Bible does not call him that.

Quote:

You wrote:...I do think that a Pastor is the shepherd over his local church assembly while Christ is the Chief Shepherd over all believers.

Acts 20:28-29 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Quote:

You also wrote: For instance you called God's Word inspired. Technically it is not inspired, but is given by inspiration. The word rapture does not appear in the Bible yet everyone know exactly what we are referring to. And there are others.
:confused: Since all scripture is given by inspiration of God then God inspired it, right? Therefore, it is very Biblical to say that all scripture which is inspired by God is inspired. :nod:

Now, if you would like to expand the subject of this thread we can. I agree with you, we should use the words that scripture uses concerning our being "caught up" together with Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Quote:

I will agree that we should use Biblical terms. We don't always because we are products of our society and we tend to pick up the lingo of the day.
Since you agree, let's make the effort to use Biblical words and be the peculiar people we are called to be, zealous of good works. We are not products of our society. The Bible says we are mortal and corruptible people that will one day put on immortality and incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Our Heavenly Father authored words.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Psalms 119:103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Words are crucial when they are God's words. Therefore, on this Bible forum we should purpose to use Bible words!

Brother Tim 07-21-2009 12:34 PM

And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.

Amanda S. 07-21-2009 12:41 PM

Quote:

Wrong. I said a pastor is referred to as an overseer based on the scripture you specifically referenced. In your post # 14 you are the one who quoted Acts 20:28-29, not me. The Bible does call the "Elder" an overseer not shepherd. My point? In my opinion, the pastor is never called a shepherd in the Bible. We should not call the Pastor of a church a shepherd when the Bible does not call him that.

OK...I fold.

If you can oversee the sheep, feed them, be an esample until the CHIEF Shepherd comes and still not be a type of shepherd whether expressly called that or not then I have nothing else to say.

Forrest 07-21-2009 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 24513)
And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.

Quote:

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.
It's good you know that, brother Tim. Simply a called servant who should:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Brother Tim 07-21-2009 01:26 PM

BAAA!






:p :rolleyes:

Amanda S. 07-21-2009 07:57 PM

Greetings Bro. Forrest :)

Quote:

In my opinion, the pastor is never called a shepherd in the Bible.
No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Why would a pastor be brutish over their own sheep? Because when put in a leadership roll often one gets the big head, and dictatorial as some have suggested can happen.


I Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.


Thus this verse. The pastor/shepherd is not to lord it over, so to speak, the flock under his leadership, but as stated - an ensample. Even the very nature of sheep is to follow...there is no need to be brutish towards sheep as they will simply follow.

Bro. Tim you said you thought of yourself as a leader not a shepherd...as a shepherd one of your jobs is to be a leader...not like a big mean and tough boss...

Is 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Psalm 1-2 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

I said I was done with this thread but I couldn't resist a couple more comments after studying a bit more.

Forgive me :D

Diligent 07-21-2009 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24545)
No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Help me out here. Where does that verse call a shepherd a pastor?

I'm being sarcastic -- I know what your point is. But you are reading into the passage.

The Shepherd owns his flock. The elders/bishops/etc are to lead the flock by example (not lording, as you noted).

Quote:

Is 40:11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
Did you look at verse 10? Who is "He?"

Quote:

Psalm 1-2 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
Again, this verse is about the Lord. In my mind you have only strengthened the case against calling pastors "shepherds" with these verses -- they are about God and his flock!

I believe very strongly in the preeminence of Christ. The King James Bible calls Christ the "Cheif Shepherd" and never once applies the title of "shepherd" to a church office. Usurping that title may seem like a small issue to some, but to me, it is robbing Christ of something that is rightfully his and his alone.

Amanda S. 07-21-2009 11:02 PM

Greetings Bro. Brandon,

You asked:

Quote:

Did you look at verse 10? Who is "He?"
"He" is the Chief Shepherd. I already stated in a previous post that I believed Christ is The Chief Shepherd and pastors, bishops are if you will "the undershepherds" {gasp} I know that word isn't in the Book but explains my thought.

Quote:

Usurping that title may seem like a small issue to some, but to me, it is robbing Christ of something that is rightfully his and his alone.
OK, Brother I will drop the discussion as I've said all I could. I did not intend to offend.

custer 07-22-2009 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24545)

No, but a shepherd is called a pastor.

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Amanda, you are right; this is not a stretch, nor is it "reading into the passage!"

What if any of us read the following sentence:
"The women are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their children shall be scattered." Not one of us would have any doubt that the WOMEN in that sentence are MOTHERS, even though the word "MOTHERS" is not used in the passage! Women that have children are "mothers;" pastors that have flocks are "shepherds."

Brandon, I would NOT presume to rob the Lord Jesus Christ of any title...the type of a pastor as a shepherd is definitely a scriptural concept, evidenced by my example above and by the pastor's job description/responsibilities stated earlier by Amanda. The "chief Shepherd" passage (I Peter 5:1-4) leaves the impression that "the elders" are most certainly considered shepherds BECAUSE the Lord is referred to as the "chief Shepherd." The fact that there is an Indian "chief" assumes that there are Indians who are not the "chief" one; the fact that there is a "chief Shepherd" assumes that there are shepherds who are not the "chief" one!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

Amanda S. 07-22-2009 11:20 AM

Bro. Brandon,

I did have one sincere question.

What does the word pastor mean?

JaeByrd 07-22-2009 11:34 AM

We recently watched a documentary on wild horses. When herding them they release a "Judas Horse" that is trained to run for the corral and the other wild horses follow.

Sheep also being a herd animal have similar instincts:

Quote:

Sheep follow each other so reliably that special names apply to the different roles sheep play in a flock. One calls a sheep that roams furthest away from the others an outlier. This sheep undertakes to go out further away from the safety of the flock to graze, while taking a chance that a predator, such as a wolf, will attack it first because of its isolation.

Another sheep, the bellwether, which never goes first but always follows an outlier, signals to the others that they may follow in safety. When it moves, the others will also move. The tendency to act as outliers or as bellwethers, or to stick in the middle of the flock, seems to stay with sheep throughout their whole life
I wouldn't call a bellwether, or outlier, a shepherd (or "under-shepherd") even though they "lead" the flock. The bellwether is just another sheep that is usually one of the oldest of the flock making it wiser to the hazards of the field. It leads not through driving the flock (like sheep dogs) but by example.

Calling a pastor a "under-shepherd" puts them outside of or above the flock.

Diligent 07-22-2009 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24571)
What does the word pastor mean?

Biblically, it is a title of an office, defined by God this way:
Jeremiah 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
The word only appears once in the New Testament in the phrase "pastors and teachers" (Eph 4:11) which lines up with this definition.

Brother Tim 07-22-2009 02:26 PM

From Wiki: [smilie mine :)]
Quote:

A bellwether is any entity in a given arena that serves to create or influence trends or to presage future happenings.

The term is derived from the Middle English bellewether and refers to the practice of placing a bell around the neck of a :eek: castrated ram (a wether) leading its flock of sheep. The movements of the flock could be noted by hearing the bell before the flock was in sight.

Amanda S. 07-22-2009 09:48 PM

Bro. Brandon and anyone else who wishes to chime in:

Quote:

Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Who is "all their flocks" referring to? Are you suggesting that this verse means that the pastor happens to be a shepherd and therefore because he is brutish that his flocks will be scattered?????

And if all the points made previously as to the fact that a pastor is to feed the sheep and be an overseer, and leader then none of it makes any sense? How does a sheep feed another sheep?? How does he care for the flock if he is one of the flock so to speak? In another place Paul says

1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

A rod? So, he's not a shepherd, but God let's him use His rod? (Figuratively speaking)

And how come most of the verses with pastor in it also have a reference to sheep? There must be some connection there?


Again in Jeremiah 23:1-4
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.



I thought the Lord was the only shepherd?!


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

One shepherd? As opposed to how many other shepherds? Who are these other shepherds?


Obviously all of you know that the very definition of pastor is shepherd. It IS what is means, but that doesn't seem to be admissible.

I am honestly trying to understand the reasoning. I have never heard this taught such a way.

Diligent 07-22-2009 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24598)
Who is "all their flocks" referring to?

Have you ever called your church "my church?" Does that mean it is under you or that you are somehow separate from everyone else in the church?

You asked for the definition of pastor, and I gave you the closest thing the Bible has to a definition of the word.

Quote:

Are you suggesting that this verse means that the pastor happens to be a shepherd and therefore because he is brutish that his flocks will be scattered?????
That sentence makes no sense to me. I don't understand what you are asking, since I maintain that the pastor is not a shepherd -- unless you are reading a modern non-KJV (think about that for a minute!).

Quote:

And if all the points made previously as to the fact that a pastor is to feed the sheep and be an overseer, and leader then none of it makes any sense? How does a sheep feed another sheep?? How does he care for the flock if he is one of the flock so to speak? In another place Paul says
And here is the crux of the matter: you are trying to defend Nicolaism and set the pastor as someone separate from the church he is supposed to be serving.

Quote:

1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

A rod? So, he's not a shepherd, but God let's him use His rod? (Figuratively speaking)
I'm no shepherd, yet the Bible tells me to use a rod (Pr 23:13). Also, nobody alive today is in the same position Paul was in, so the comparison doesn't stand. (Also, I wonder if you could find a verse that ever calls Paul a pastor.)

Quote:

And how come most of the verses with pastor in it also have a reference to sheep? There must be some connection there?
Of course there is a connection. That doesn't make pastor synonymous with shepherd.

Quote:

Again in Jeremiah 23:1-4
1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

You're not seriously applying these verses about Israel to the Church, are you? Besides, that passage proves pastors and shepherds are different.

The pastors are replaced with shepherds in the passage you quote.

Quote:

I thought the Lord was the only shepherd?!
Insofar as the Body of Christ is concerned, he is the only one called a shepherd. (My prior statements should be understood in that context -- sorry if I wasn't clear enough.)

Quote:


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

This verse also gives a hint as to the difference between Israel and the Church. Of which are you?

Quote:

Obviously all of you know that the very definition of pastor is shepherd.
There you go again, using that word. Obviously, it is not obvious.

Amanda S. 07-22-2009 10:57 PM

Bro. Brandon,

I am not trying to defend anything, but understand the thought process. Now that I've exhausted all the Scripture on the subject, I feel as if I understand your position.


Quote:

You Quote:
Are you suggesting that this verse means that the pastor happens to be a shepherd and therefore because he is brutish that his flocks will be scattered?????
That sentence makes no sense to me. I don't understand what you are asking, since I maintain that the pastor is not a shepherd -- unless you are reading a modern non-KJV (think about that for a minute!).
Well, with the "my church" comment I see how you come to read that passage as you do.

I read nothing but a KJB...

I am not intending to defend any position at this point. Just wanting to know how you read the passages as opposed to how I've understood them. I honestly have never used the term shepherd in reference to any pastor and I don't think I've heard it used many times in the churches I am in.

Quote:

And here is the crux of the matter: you are trying to defend Nicolaism and set the pastor as someone separate from the church he is supposed to be serving.
I can see how you would think that, but honestly I don't believe that. LoL :) I'm not even sure I can correctly pronounce that. ;) I have not disagreed at all with anyone's duties of a pastor, elder or deacon and George did a great study on the church that I agreed with wholeheartedly (until the end in which I need to process a bit more :) )

Being a pastor's wife for 10+ yrs I am very well aquainted with the "position" of a pastor and being a servant to the people, an ensample and have seen my husband lead humbly yet with authority when teaching the Bible. Bro. Brandon I don't think we would disagree on that topic.

Quote:

You're not seriously applying these verses about Israel to the Church, are you? Besides, that passage proves pastors and shepherds are different.
No not applying them, but pulling out all the stops so to speak LoL :D And I see what you are saying, pastor is one - shepherd is another.

Thank you, I've no more questions...................tonight :D

JaeByrd 07-22-2009 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 24581)
From Wiki: [smilie mine :)]

They don't always castrate them. Depends on the flock dynamics. Sometimes the bellwether is an ewe. Doesn't mean I'm advocating females in roles of leadership. ;)

With all the talk of sheep, flocks, and shepherds it was interesting to read about them the workings of a sheep farm. I found some interesting observations from sheepherders talking about this very subject.

custer 07-23-2009 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 24513)
And while we are being specific:
The I Peter 5 passage is speaking to "elders" (plural), which is the broadest, inclusive title given to church "leaders". There is no reference to individual pastors being over local churches. Within the church are "elder" believers who have been given to responsibility of leading by "ensample" those who are the "younger" (I Peter 5:5)

P.S. As prospective, I am a Baptist pastor. I am a leader, but not the boss, of the church in which God has placed me.

I have always thought of a "bishop" as a "pastor;" is that the concensus here?

So, in I Timothy 3:1-7, there is only ONE bishop over the church as evidenced by the fact that his job is likened to that of A man RULING over his own house (v.5.) [Being the "ruler" makes him the "boss!"] Of course, a husband/father in authority is not just one of a few different sheep in the house! And, the bishop is not necessarily an "elder;" Timothy was younger (I Tim. 4:12.)

Looking at this, I saw something else: the wording in I Peter 2:25 is interesting concerning this subject - "the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." We already know that there are lower-case "bishops," and it logically follows from this verse that there would be lower-case "shepherds." (This is related to - and supports - my post #30.)

As an aside, in my reading this morning, I came across Psalm 111:9 - "...holy and reverend is his name." I believe that's the only reference to "reverend" in the Bible, and it says God's name is reverend. So, I think it's a much more serious issue for Pastors to put "reverend" in their title than to compare themselves scripturally to a shepherd. I would go so far as to say that calling someone "Reverend so-and-so" would be downright blasphemous!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

Amanda S. 07-24-2009 12:38 PM

Hello there Sis. Pam!

You brought up a great point! Thanks to it's 'built in dictionary' as my husband calls it I Peter 2:25 is defining bishop as shepherd...Unless one wants to change this standard of defining the words in our KJB. I was intrigued by the capital letters here...nowhere else is bishop capitalized...

There are many examples of the KJB defining itself but here is one example that I love:

Genesis 24:16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

II Chr 34:10 And they put it in the hand of the workmen that had the oversight of the house of the LORD, and they gave it to the workmen that wrought in the house of the LORD, to repair and amend the house:

Ps 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Those are just a few, but taking everything that is said in the Bible about a shepherd, a bishop, a deacon, a pastor, leading, feeding, and caring and putting it all together it makes perfect sense.

Consider this - I Samuel 21:7 Now a certain man of the servants of Saul was there that day, detained before the LORD; and his name was Doeg, an Edomite, the chiefest of the herdmen that belonged to Saul.


Above is an example of there being a chief shepherd...remember I Peter 5:4? The Chief Shepherd? If there is a chief, one can gather that there are under shepherds especially if there is a large number of herds.


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