evstevemd
Quote:
cpmac |
evstevemd
Quote:
cpmac |
Here brother!
Quote:
|
Evstevemd:
The man of sin is not a man who becomes Satan. He is Satan all along. He is THE Antichrist. He is against Christ, and always will be. John saw many antichrists in his day. These were the Jews (and possibly Gentiles) who saw Him do all the miracles, heard Him teach, saw Him raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and so forth, yet because of an evil heart, refused to acknowledge that He was the Son of God. They were the many Antichrists. They were the children of disobedience in whom the spirit of iniquity was working. The "spirit of iniquity" was the spirit of Antichrist. The Antichrist didn't become Satan, he was Satan. |
Quote:
Cpmac, the word "man" is the same used on Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way. Just show me where is satan here? Bible says man you say satan :confused: I'm confused with your teaching Cpmac. Reconsider your teachings!! |
1 John deals with the spirit of antichrist, which was even in existence in the first century. 2 Thessalonians deals with the man who becomes THE Antichrist, the one-world leader opposed to God who sets himself up as God and institutes the mark of the beast. This is the man that the book of Revelation refers to as the beast. 2 Thessalonians (which refers to him as the son of perdition, the same title Judas had when possessed by Satan) and Revelation 12 also teach/imply that this man will become possessed by Satan at the halfway point of the tribulation (3 1/2 year point), when Satan no longer has access to Heaven to accuse the brethren before God, so he goes on a rampage against all the Jews and those that got saved during the tribulation.
|
Quote:
|
Jerry:
Quote:
Quote:
"Beast" is mentioned about 155 times in Scripture. In most cases, it refers to an actual animal, although in some prophetic passages it may refer to a kingdom or empire, but not, to my knowledge, a human being. Quote:
You are correct that Revelation 12 speaks of Satan having been cast out of heaven, and having no more access. However, I believe that dispensationalism, which teaches that, may have the timing wrong. Notice verse 10, "...a loud voice in saying in heaven, Now is come salvation,and strength, and the kingdom of God, and the power of His Christ." Satan, therefore, was cast out of heaven at the time salvation came, and that was after the cross. The kingdom and Christ's power came shortly after the cross. That will not happen again in the future. Quote:
Rev. 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." The "beast" is not a man who becomes "Antichrist." He is the devil himself. Only spirit beings are cast into, and then released from, the bottomless pit. cpmac http://www.tribulationhoax.com www.biblefacts.net |
Quote:
|
EvSteveMd:
Quote:
cpmac http://www.tribulationhoax.com http://www.biblefacts.net |
Although I am not totally certain what dispensationalists mean by "spiritualizing Scripture," here is an example of what I suspect it means:
Revelation 4:1-2 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." The Dispensational Bible teacher quotes this Scripture, and writes, "John is being taken up into heaven. Inasmuch as John was the last remaining apostle and a member of the Universal Church, his elevation to heaven is a picture of the Rapture of the Church just before the Tribulation begins." (Tim LaHaye, page 99, Revelation Unveiled.) But who says that this is a picture of the rapture of the Church? Only the futurist scholar. John was called, and immediately he, and he alone, found himself in the spirit in heaven. The Bible says nothing about the Church being raptured at that time. In fact, dispensationalists repeatedly harp on the fact that the Church is not mentioned any more until much later in Revelation. But if John's elevation into heaven was a picture of the rapture of the Church, it would seem odd if no one mentioned the Church at least once during all the visions that John saw. Could it be that this has nothing to do with any rapture of the Church? This, in my opinion, is a clear-cut case of man spiritualizing Scripture, but the ones doing the spiritualizing are the dispensationalists, themselves. cpmac www.tribulationhoax.com |
It is not spiritualizing Scripture - but may seem that way if you don't know why they arrived at that conclusion. Revelation one states this:
Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 1) The things which thou hast seen - John's vision of Christ in chapter one. 2) The things which are - the seven churches, representing the church age according to the order of the letters, chapters 2-3. 3) The things which shall be hereafter - chapter 4 onwards, the events of the Tribulation and afterwards. Chapter four starts with this: Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. This is after the church age - which would correspond with the church being raptured. When compared with 1 Thessalonians 4, you can see the language is similar. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Certainly there are some similarities - even if you do not think John's being called to Heaven pictures the rapture, Biblically it certainly fits the timing of the rapture. |
Jerry:
Quote:
cpmac http://www.tribulatonhoax.com |
FYI
A Preterist is one who uses "Gnosis" and "Allegory" to derive their interptetation of scripture. The literal meaning of scripture is of little use as the scriptures are to be spiritually understood. They believe they have an advanced understanding given by God for their pursuit of "wisdom" and "knowledge." This is their means of salvation. They will often tell you they were once where you are now (they believe they have advanced to a 'higher' plane of understanding).
As far as 'spiritualizing' the scriptures goes - this is what they do. I might add that there is no one individual who has the absolute interpretation of scripture. They all have an interpretation that is very impressive, scholarly and seems to cover every aspect. The problem is that they all have an interpretation and they all don't agree with each other. The literal context is not improtant either. Thus - a private interpretation! An example of 'spiritualizing' would be as follows: In 1st John 4:2 we have Jesus coming in the flesh. We understand that is in his literal flesh. He shared flesh like we share flesh. Preterist believe (at least some do, especially the 'full blown' type) Jesus came in the flesh too -only not HIS flesh, but YOUR flesh. This way it is 'spiritual' to them - not literal. Continual dialog is usually fruitless. Hope this is of some use. Buythetruth |
Here it is
Quote:
some to spiritual. If bible states Antichrist is "Man" of sin, How could you say He is satan? :confused: Ev. Steve :p |
evstevemd :
Quote:
Now, my question: What is the "falling away" that must come when he is revealed? cpmac www.tribulationhoax.com. |
Satan is an angel, not a man. He will possess the Antichrist - but that does not make him the Antichrist or vice-versa.
|
Quote:
Man of sin not angel of sin! Ev. Steve:D |
Is the devil a "man?" The Scriptures refer to Satan, the devil, as "he,"
or "him." Job 2:1; Matt. 12:26; Mrk. 3:26; Luke 11:18; Luke 22:31; and many more verses refer to Satan in the masculine gender. So at least we know that Satan is not female. In John 8:14, The Lord Jesus Christ said that he was the father of the wicked men in Israel, and also the father of lies. John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." So, if the Bible can say that Satan is the father of certain people, and we understand that it's all metaphoric, is it so difficult to imagine that the Bible can also refer to him as a "man of sin," even though we all know that he is angelic in nature? In 2 Thes. 2:4, it says that this "man of sin" exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so the he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Now, this so-called Antichrist, as described by dispensational futurists, is supposed to be the handywork of Satan. He is his his protege, his "right-hand man," and so forth. The one thing a subordinate dare not do is upstage his master, if his master is Satan. "Sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God," is something Satan himself tried; I doubt if he would let any of his flunkies get by with it. It could be that Paul was not telling us what this "man of sin" was going to do in the future, he might have been merely telling us who this "man of sin" really was by describing some of his past history: Isaiah 14:12-14 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." You insist that he is a man, but it is interesting that no less an authority than J.Dwight Pentecost lists one of this Antichrist's names as "Angel of the Bottomless Pit." (Things To Come, p 334). This supposedly human being was locked up in the "bottonless pit," a metaphor for the imprisonment of spiritual beings. cpmac www.tribulationhoax.com |
Quote:
Quote:
The devil hasn't already set himself up in the temple. Quote:
Revelation 13:1-2 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. The dragon is stated to be the Devil in chapter 12. |
Jerry wrote:
Quote:
Jerry wrote: Quote:
They were all shook up thinking that the Day was near ("at hand" according to the correct Bible). If the Day of Christ, the Day of the Lord, i.e., the Great Tribulation Jesus spoke about in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, had already come, believe me, they would have known about it. They would have had no need to ask Paul anything. Jerry wrote: Quote:
Jerry wrote: Quote:
I'm not sure which passage you're referring to, but yes. Any time the Bible speaks of man and the devil in the same breath, so to speak, usually the man is under the influence of the devil. Sometimes the devil cannot be distinguished from the man, and vice versa. Jerry wrote: Quote:
the Roman Empire. The ten horns were the same as the "ten toes" in Daniel. They were the smaller kingdoms which Rome had conquered in the past, and of which the empire was made of . And true indeed. It was a heathen nation, God used it to judge Israel for its wickedness and unbelief, and the Dragon gave it his power (long story). Did you notice something else(it has nothing to do with our discussion) in Revelation 12? The dragon and his angels were kicked out of heaven at about the time Jesus brought salvation to the world, received all power in the universe, and the kingdom of God was set up. Scofield, charter member of dispensationalism, really got that one wrong. The chief reason I know futurism is wrong is because the Lord Jesus Christ said so in Luke 21:22, "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." The "days of vengeance" was the destructon of the temple, the city, and the nation in AD70. There are therefore, no specific O.T. prophecies which were not fulfilled before that date. cpmac www.tribulationhoax.com |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
cpmac www.tribulationhoax.com |
Paul doesn't refer to a throne - but to the temple. He is referring to Daniel 9 and 11 - which Jesus also refers to in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 - as a future event that had not happened yet.
|
Quote:
Daniel could not have prophesied anything to happen after AD70, which was the "days of vengeance" Jesus spoke about in Luke 21:22, "when all things which are written shall be fulfilled." What wasn't fulfilled by then is not going to be fulfilled, the Old Testament notwithstanding. cpmac www.tribulationhoax.com |
Could not have? Well, apparently he did, but you refuse to accept it because it doesn't fit your pre-conceived theology. Jesus referred to Daniel 9 (and several other places):
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. This next part was a type of the Antichrist (this is referring to Antiochus Epiphanes) - which was not fulfilled in the OT because Jesus still referred to it as a future event: Daniel 8:11-14 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Luke 21 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, Matthew 24 and Mark 13 refer to the endtime Tribulation period - there are certain things in those chapters that have not happened yet, including the 7 year Tribulation itself, the peace treaty with Israel, the desecration of the temple by the Antichrist - which Paul refers to as a yet future event. There is NO record of a one-world leader desecrating the temple with an idol of himself in AD 70, nor of the mark of the beast being established worldwide - nor of the seals, trumpets, and vials being poured out worldwide. Armageddon has not happened, the devil has not been cast into the bottomless pit or even into the Lake of fire yet, Christ is not physically reigning from Jerusalem yet. It is just wishful thinking to think otherwise. |
Quote:
cpmac www.tribulationhoax.com |
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Week = years in this context Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. This could be 7 years, or only 3 1/2 years since Revelation deals with the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation, God's judgment. See next 2 verses: Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Just a sample of tribulation references, and where the 7 years comes from. |
Great Tribulation:
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. |
Willie wrote:
Quote:
But the verse says that, "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." But who can believe that this wicked, evil, abominable, Antichrist will have such an attack of righteousness that he will desolate the temple, or city, or whatever, because of all their abominations? That does not fit his character at all. And what is the "consummation?" cpmac www.tribulationhoax.com |
Quote: cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com Does this mean you don't even believe in the tribulation? If that is so, I have no answer for you. |
Willie:
You must have misread my post. The question I asked had nothing to do with whether I believe in the Tribulation (I, in fact, believe in two tribulations). It was about who confirmed the covenant with many in Israel. If you enlighten me as to how the Antichrist can be righteous enough to desolate Jerusalem for all their abominations, then we can begin to figure out whether all this is past or future. cpmac www.tribulationhoax.com. |
It certainly wasn't Jesus who made that covenant referred to in that verse. Jesus warned Israel against that time.
Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. The people of the prince to come will destroy Jerusalem and the temple - that is the Roman Empire that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Jesus is saying a ruler from that same empire is going to desecrate the endtimes temple - the abomination of desolation, as Jesus called it. Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Isaiah 28:14-20 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. |
The "righteousness" of the antichrist will be feigned. So, people will buy into his lie.
|
...sorry for misreading your post. You believe in 2 tribulations? I'm interested to learn more.
|
Jerry:
Quote:
cpmac www.tribulationhoax.com |
Willie:
Quote:
|
|
Willie:
I believe that there were two tribulations in the time fo Christ 2000 years ago. The first one was relatively mild, and was a time of trial, to prove the faith of all those who professed belief in Christ. When Christ first came to earth, not everyone received Him. But those who did, to them He gave power to become sons of God. Notice that just by receiving Him, believing in Him, did not make them children of God; He only gave them power to become sons of God. First they would have to endure a time of testing, if they passed, then they would be saved. Matt. 24:13 “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Some theologians think that this means “they will be physically rescued out of the midst of the future Tribulation,” which doesn’t make sense, because if they are rescued before the tribulation is over, then they don’t “endure to the end.” Rev. 3:5 gives evidence that this is soul salvation, and not physical rescue: Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. They have to overcome the devil: Rev 12:11 “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” This was a time of trial. The bible calls it a tribulation, and also it is called the Baptism of Fire. I don’t know how long it lasted, but it ended just before the time of judgement, the Great Tribulation, the invasion of Jerusalem by Rome, begain. Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” Immediately after that fist tribulation, the tribulation of testing was over, the tribulation of judgement began. You can find more about this on my website, www.tribulationhoax.com. And “Baptism of fire.” Cpmac www.tribulationhoax.com |
preterism?Click here
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:43 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Website © AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.