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PaulB 07-25-2009 03:26 PM

Are Christians commanded to tithe?
 
I have heard it over and over again from many pulpits that Christ has fulfilled all of the requirements of the law (Sabbath, animal sacrifices, etc, etc) and yet I constantly hear that the law still stands when it comes down to tithing. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I see that giving your all is required in the NT but does the 10% rule still apply in the places where you assemble?

Look forward to hearing from you

God bless

PaulB

Samuel 07-25-2009 04:09 PM

Quick answer "No". The Lord loves a cheerful giver, and that is the way Christians are supposed to give. What you give out of constraint, is probably not cheerful, so don't bother.

chette777 07-25-2009 05:59 PM

2Co 9:5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.

first a Christian is to give out of bounty, the treasure or what is left over from the pay check. you are responsible to pay your bills, feed your family then out of the "bounty" that which is left for you to hide away, the treasure, the bounty what so ever you purpose in your heart bring that.

Don't give out of covetousness. this is taught by all prosperity preachers put in $1 get back $10, $100, or $1000. If you are giving to get more back from God it is covetous giving. God is not a divine slot machine.

6 ¶ But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.

great giving has great results but beware you are not giving for the wrong reason.

7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

don't give if you are doing it with a divided heart or grudgingly. Don't give because there is a necessity. this one is used a lot from pulpits. no faith in God if we keep pitching the need (the necessity).

Brother Presswood 07-25-2009 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulB (Post 24681)
I have heard it over and over again from many pulpits that Christ has fulfilled all of the requirements of the law (Sabbath, animal sacrifices, etc, etc) and yet I constantly hear that the law still stands when it comes down to tithing. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I believe that an important principle to consider is, the tithe is really given to Jesus Himself. The first time the word "tithe" is mentioned is after Lot and his family were taken from the city of Sodom and Abraham went and conquered those who had taken them away and brought them back.

Genesis 14:17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.


Who is this Melchizedek? Hebrews 7:3 describes Melchizedek.
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

How many people can you think of described like this? I believe Melchizedek is a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ. But even if you don’t believe he was Jesus Christ, the principle is still established because the Bible says, "…[he] is made like unto the Son of God." When Abraham gave to Melchizedek, in the first mention of the tithe, he was giving it to Jesus.

To those who say that tithing is just Old Testament law, I disagree because Abraham gave tithes long before the law. The law wouldn’t be given for several hundred years yet. When Jacob got right with God in Genesis 28, he immediately made a vow to bring a tenth of everything God gave him. This, too, was before the law.

Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.


Tithing is a law of God, written not just in the law He gave to Moses, it’s written in your heart and in your conscience. Abraham, before there was any command, knew he was supposed to tithe. Jacob knew he was supposed to tithe.

Samuel 07-25-2009 09:07 PM

Quote:

To those who say that tithing is just Old Testament law, I disagree because Abraham gave tithes long before the law. The law wouldn’t be given for several hundred years yet. When Jacob got right with God in Genesis 28, he immediately made a vow to bring a tenth of everything God gave him. This, too, was before the law.
I knew someone would bring this up. It is also mentioned that Jacob (Israel) paid tithes in Abraham. This is a foreshadowing of the Law that was to come.

I have no objections to tithing, but to constrain Church members under a law, NO. Paul plainly taught that giving was not to be by constraint, when he asked for a gift. But in showing forth by those who were involved, the love of Christ that was in them.

So what was a law of tithing to Israel, is like the Sabbath law. It does not extend to Grace. But unfortunately, these huge Denominational Monoliths cannot exist without tithing. :)

greenbear 07-25-2009 09:27 PM

Yes. That grace through faith alone thing shoots a hole into that theory. We are not in the dispensation of the law or the dispensation of promise. We are in the dispensation of grace. At least according to some.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Amanda S. 07-25-2009 09:39 PM

Quote:

Bro. Samuel said: I have no objections to tithing, but to constrain Church members under a law, NO. Paul plainly taught that giving was not to be by constraint, when he asked for a gift. But in showing forth by those who were involved, the love of Christ that was in them.
Quote:

Bro. Paul said: yet I constantly hear that the law still stands when it comes down to tithing. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
I see that giving your all is required in the NT but does the 10% rule still apply in the places where you assemble?
First thought: I've never heard any pastors I have any respect for preach that this is a law or a rule.

Second: Fast answer - No it doesn't still apply

Third: 10% can be a good starting place.

Fourth: My husband preaches a wonderful sermon on this very subject. I'll see if he can fish it out for me and let you know what he thinks :)

CKG 07-25-2009 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Presswood (Post 24694)
I believe that an important principle to consider is, the tithe is really given to Jesus Himself. The first time the word "tithe" is mentioned is after Lot and his family were taken from the city of Sodom and Abraham went and conquered those who had taken them away and brought them back.

Genesis 14:17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.


Who is this Melchizedek? Hebrews 7:3 describes Melchizedek.
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

How many people can you think of described like this? I believe Melchizedek is a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ. But even if you don’t believe he was Jesus Christ, the principle is still established because the Bible says, "…[he] is made like unto the Son of God." When Abraham gave to Melchizedek, in the first mention of the tithe, he was giving it to Jesus.

To those who say that tithing is just Old Testament law, I disagree because Abraham gave tithes long before the law. The law wouldn’t be given for several hundred years yet. When Jacob got right with God in Genesis 28, he immediately made a vow to bring a tenth of everything God gave him. This, too, was before the law.

Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.


Tithing is a law of God, written not just in the law He gave to Moses, it’s written in your heart and in your conscience. Abraham, before there was any command, knew he was supposed to tithe. Jacob knew he was supposed to tithe.

Nowhere does it say Abraham was commanded to tithe and he didn't tithe of all that he had; only of the spoils of the battle (Hebrews 7:4). Jacob vowed a vow to tithe, but there is no scriptural record that he ever carried out the vow.

It's interesting that twice (Romans 4 and Galatians 3) Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles, the one to whom was given the fullest understanding of the church) mentions Abraham as the main example for justification by faith, but when he talks about giving he never mentions Abraham's tithing to Melchizedek as an example for the church.

Brother Presswood 07-25-2009 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 24698)
Yes. That grace through faith alone thing shoots a hole into that theory. We are not in the dispensation of the law or the dispensation of promise. We are in the dispensation of grace. At least according to some.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I do not believe anyone here is advocating attaching tithing to salvation. Certainly, that would be legalistic. According to Leviticus 27:30, the tithe is "the LORD's." Tithing is an issue of love, not law.

People mistakenly think that tithing has to do with money; it doesn’t have to do with money. God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He owns the hills and all the gold in the hills. He tells us in Psalms 50 that He owns everything and if He did need anything, He wouldn’t tell us.

Ps 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.


God doesn’t need anything. He doesn’t need our money. He wants our obedience and our love. When the offering plate goes by, we can rejoice at another opportunity to express your love and obedience to God.

Brother Presswood 07-25-2009 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKG (Post 24703)
Nowhere does it say Abraham was commanded to tithe

I agree, which confirms that tithing is written on the heart and not just the law.

Quote:

and he didn't tithe of all that he had; only of the spoils of the battle (Hebrews 7:4).
The account in Genesis says that he gave "tithes of all." The passage in Hebrews merely states that he did, indeed, give a tenth of the spoils, which were included in "all" mentioned in Genesis.

Quote:

Jacob vowed a vow to tithe, but there is no scriptural record that he ever carried out the vow.
There certainly is no reason to believe that he didn't keep his vow.

Quote:

It's interesting that twice (Romans 4 and Galatians 3) Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles, the one to whom was given the fullest understanding of the church) mentions Abraham as the main example for justification by faith, but when he talks about giving he never mentions Abraham's tithing to Melchizedek as an example for the church.
If you believe, as do I, that Paul is the author of Hebrews, then he did use Abraham as an example.

CKG 07-25-2009 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel (Post 24695)
I knew someone would bring this up. It is also mentioned that Jacob (Israel) paid tithes in Abraham. This is a foreshadowing of the Law that was to come.

I have no objections to tithing, but to constrain Church members under a law, NO. Paul plainly taught that giving was not to be by constraint, when he asked for a gift. But in showing forth by those who were involved, the love of Christ that was in them.

So what was a law of tithing to Israel, is like the Sabbath law. It does not extend to Grace. But unfortunately, these huge Denominational Monoliths cannot exist without tithing. :)

I also meant to point that out. I see nothing wrong with someone giving 10% just like I see nothing wrong with having church on Saturday, wearing a coat and tie to church or a dozen other like things we could come up with. It's when you start trying to enforce these things on others that it becomes error.

greenbear 07-25-2009 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Presswood (Post 24704)
I do not believe anyone here is advocating attaching tithing to salvation. Certainly, that would be legalistic. According to Leviticus 27:30, the tithe is "the LORD's." Tithing is an issue of love, not law.

People mistakenly think that tithing has to do with money; it doesn’t have to do with money. God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He owns the hills and all the gold in the hills. He tells us in Psalms 50 that He owns everything and if He did need anything, He wouldn’t tell us.

Ps 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.


God doesn’t need anything. He doesn’t need our money. He wants our obedience and our love. When the offering plate goes by, we can rejoice at another opportunity to express your love and obedience to God.

I do understand we are talking about tithing, not salvation. My point is that there is no law for us. There is no law of tithing in the dispensation of grace. It is the Holy Spirit's role to convict every person whether to give, how much and to whom.

Amanda S. 07-25-2009 10:59 PM

I believe this brings out great points and is in essence what my husband teaches....

http://www.learnthebible.org/tithing.html

PaulB 07-26-2009 09:09 AM

CKG
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CKG (Post 24707)
I also meant to point that out. I see nothing wrong with someone giving 10% just like I see nothing wrong with having church on Saturday, wearing a coat and tie to church or a dozen other like things we could come up with. It's when you start trying to enforce these things on others that it becomes error.

Great quote Craig, I couldn't agree more. I have no issue with giving I am in no way looking for a "get out clause", I just wanted to hear what your convictions are so that I could know more on it.


Thanks also to everyone for all of your responses they are very helpful!

God bless

PaulB:)

chette777 07-26-2009 06:01 PM

I believe Abraham purposed in his heart and gave to Melchizedek.

and likewise if you are struggling with what to purpose in your heart, A tithe is a Biblical example of giving.

But Christians are not under the law to tithe. Mal 4:4 says the law was given for all Israel, the counsel at Jerusalem said they would lay none of the law upon the Gentile believers.

Paul never taught tithing as a way to give, he left that matter up to the one with the bounty and the Holy Ghost who lived in his heart.

It is prosperity theology that really pushes the tithing and offering to the limit and has caused untold damage to the faith and Christian growth of many. it is all part of the Apostasy that this age will end in.

wingwiper 07-26-2009 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24700)
First thought: I've never heard any pastors I have any respect for preach that this is a law or a rule.

Second: Fast answer - No it doesn't still apply

Third: 10% can be a good starting place.

Good preaching there sis..................

Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

The Church is not the storehouse.

Malachi 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

The issue of tithing can be contrasted with giving under grace through Paul:

2 Corinthians 9:6-7 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Simple enough, huh?

As Amanda said................I do believe that a tenth is at least a good number to “start” with. If 10% is good enough for the Old Testament what does that say for the New Testament-- Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Jassy 07-26-2009 06:42 PM

Attitude of Giving
 
The most common Scriptures used in the church today before the "offering" music begins to play are:

Malachi 3:10 - Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Malachi 3:8 - Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.


Mark 12 and Luke 21 talk about a poor widow who threw in or cast in "two mites."

Now apparently, this was a large sum of her income, if you go percentage-wise.

If someone throws in $1,000 and their income is only $5,000/yr. and another throws in $1,000 and their income is $50,000/yr., well who has been the most generous, percentage-wise? The $1,000 out of the $5,000 was given out of great sacrifice. The $1,000 out of the $50,000 would scarcely be noticed.

The Lord doesn't care about the amount, He cares about the HEART with which it is given. HE doesn't NEED our money!! It's all HIS anyways! Don't you think, if He is the creator and owner of all things, that He could easily supply all of our need? Of course!! He wants to see a willing heart; that's what He desires. It's all about ATTITUDE!

Since churches generally use the Old Testament scriptures quoted above to more or less "guilt" people into giving, guess who the banks' BIGGEST customers must be on Monday morning? Well, following Sunday church services, church secretaries, of course! They're eager to deposit the "tithes" into the church banking account. Nevermind if it's going into the church building fund, the missionary fund, the minister's salary, or any other part of the church "budget." How can we be so sure that our money is properly given and properly being used?

That is where we are given freedom and we must use wisdom to decide where, when and how much to give. That is our choice. I once heard that giving was out of WORSHIP of our Lord. They said that the word "worship" was originally a contraction of the words "worth" and "ship." And that we were to pay the ministers according to how much we felt they were WORTH in our Christian learning. Now I don't know if that is true or not... but it is our own choice to make, as sister Jennifer pointed out. And I agree with that.

I'm sorry that I'm so very negative and skeptical about this tithing topic. I came out of the cultist Worldwide Church of God, which taught people not only that they owed a tenth of all of their earnings to the church, but that they also must tithe an additional "tenth of a tenth" to help the poor who did not have enough income.

CONSIDER: Have you ever watched the faces of those around you, who were placing their hard-earned money into the collection plate on Sunday morning? Have you noticed the solemnity with which people associate this time in church? Have you EVER seen someone release whatever they've given into the collection place with a smile of JOY on their face? THAT, brother or sister, should be how we ALL give - yet I've never once seen a person SMILE while giving! Not ONCE!! I've seen a scowl. I've seen a smirk. I've seen a frown. I've seen a harried expression. I've seen a straight solemn expressionless face. But nary a smile.

As someone said here the Lord loves a "cheerful giver." (2 Corinthians 9:7)

Am I against giving to the church? Of course not. The early churches did take up collections on the first day of the week (Sunday), whenever Paul was NOT present, to support the ministry. Paul and the apostles did much travelling and that was not free. In addition, Paul WORKED. He was a tentmaker. He didn't expect the church to support him, nor did he require it. Yet he was thankful for whatever was given and he used it properly.

We are taught to be "good stewards" of what we are given. If a person is in debt - with credit cards - well, they ought to pay off those cards FIRST and make that a priority. If giving to the church is putting them further into debt, that's not what a person should be doing. God isn't going to magically pay-off those credit cards that have been misused! He's not going to bless you, if you've been a bad steward of what he has entrusted you with.

Yes, God does sometimes choose to bless people. Sometimes I think of it like a TEST. Will the person properly use or MISuse those resources? Will the person become narcissistic? Will the person develop an "entitlement" view?

I've known far too many Christians who, having been blessed with a fancy house, expensive cars, and new, modern furniture, fully believe that it is the end result of their faith and God's blessings upon them. They fully believe that, if you are rich, then you're reaping the blessings of your faith. If you're poor, then there's obviously something lacking in your faith. That saddens me, simply because they'll never experience the richness in faith that poverty or suffering might bring. I've seen people living in great JOY who have very little and who need very little. After all, we are told that squeezing a camel through the eye of a needle is not easy!! (Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25)

I have no jealousy or hard feelings against those who have wealth. To me, that's neither here nor there in my faith. I would pray for blessings, only to do what may not be possible with my present income. I'd really love to support some foreign missionaries, to send Bibles, tracts and other literature into poverty-ridden areas of the world. To strengthen the faith of those who are in Christian-minority countries.

Lord, please bless me in that way, so that I may be a good steward of your blessings and be able to help others who are more needful. In the name of Jesus Christ, I pray. Amen. [Note: The prayer doesn't magically mean that the blessings will rain down upon me!]

Jassy

Renee 07-26-2009 07:00 PM

Are christians comanded to tithe?
 
Mark 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

Mark 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

Mark 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:


I do not believe we are comanded to tithe. If we (us personally)tithe, there would be some missioneries that would not have been helped. I believe in giving with a cheerful heart. Things get tight sometimes, but My Lord has always put food on the table, a roof over our head and clothes on our backs.

Do we need anymore?

1 Corinthians 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

Anytime we give, big or small, before or after taxes, before or after bills, before or after food, we are only giving back part of what The Lord has given us. So Whatever we give, give cheerfully.

That is my take,and not put here for discussion. Just my two cents.

Renee

Amanda S. 07-26-2009 08:27 PM

Sister Jassy,

Quote:

The most common Scriptures used in the church today before the "offering" music begins to play are:
Are there churches that actually read this Scripture before the offering?! Just curious...what types of churches are these?

:)

greenbear 07-26-2009 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24747)
Sister Jassy,



Are there churches that actually read this Scripture before the offering?! Just curious...what types of churches are these?

:)

That is a curious thing to be curious about. :)

Jassy 07-26-2009 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24747)
Sister Jassy,



Are there churches that actually read this Scripture before the offering?! Just curious...what types of churches are these?

:)

Sis Amanda,

Yes! There are, indeed. As I've related in previous posts, and in my testimony as well, I came out of the Worldwide Church of God - there were THOUSANDS of them all over the world. And yes, they commonly used those scriptures before the offering!

These are primarily FALSE churches who do such. I wasn't intimating that the true Body of Christ would do that.

Jassy

Amanda S. 07-26-2009 08:53 PM

Quote:

Since churches generally use the Old Testament scriptures quoted above to more or less "guilt" people into giving, guess who the banks' BIGGEST customers must be on Monday morning? Well, following Sunday church services, church secretaries, of course! They're eager to deposit the "tithes" into the church banking account.
Oh Jassy, this is so sad.....? As I've said before I am the daughter-in-law of a pastor, the wife of a pastor and assistant pastor...very close to pastor's families and leadership in many churches and while I've heard of this type of behaviour I've never seen anyone exibit the behaviour you are describing? Most of the pastors I know are bi-vocational and are certainly not in it for the money...
I would like to defend the churches I am associated with possibly inserted in this broad generalization...While it's despicable that there are churches out there like that, I'd would dare say that in a true Bible Believing Baptist church this is hardly the norm. But I can undestand that if you've come from a bad situation one can be touchy on many areas and I am sorry for that...

Quote:

Nevermind if it's going into the church building fund, the missionary fund, the minister's salary, or any other part of the church "budget." How can we be so sure that our money is properly given and properly being used?
I would say that if you honestly cannot in good conscience trust your tithe to a church
then you need to find a church you can trust.

Quote:

I've known far too many Christians who, having been blessed with a fancy house, expensive cars, and new, modern furniture, fully believe that it is the end result of their faith and God's blessings upon them. They fully believe that, if you are rich, then you're reaping the blessings of your faith. If you're poor, then there's obviously something lacking in your faith.
I do not know any true Christians like this personally, but I do know that my aunt who was in a Mennonite cult had her faith destroyed by this very teaching. They were churched for basically always being poor as they taught it was an outward sign of an inward sin. They got out of church and now she is a self professed Athiest with 8 children. Very sad situation.

We need to be careful to consider what the Bible has to say on these matters and do the best we know. The Lord will not hold us accountable for another's transgressions. If you were to give your tithes to a church and they were not good stewards of that money, if you gave as unto the Lord that is all that matters.

Biblestudent 07-26-2009 09:17 PM

No, Christians are not "commanded" to tithe.

Abraham was not commanded.
The Gentiles were not commanded.
Christians today are not commanded.

The only people "commanded" to tithe are the Hebrews, the Twelve Tribes of Israel. One tribe had no land inheritance; the tithe was given to them as the Lord commanded them.

Should Christians today tithe?

That's a different question altogether!:D

Answer:
1. Was Abraham commanded to tithe? No.
2. Did Abraham tithe? Yes.
3. Are Christians commanded to tithe? No.
4. Should Christians tithe? "According as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give."
5. May Christians give less than tithe? "He that soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly."
6. May Christians give more than tithe? "My God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus."
7. Are you giving your tithe? _________:)
8. Are you giving more than tithe? ______________:)
9. Am I giving?__________________:peep:

greenbear 07-26-2009 09:34 PM

I believe the practice of tithing to a church organization is unscriptural. Tithing was a Jewish law for the Jewish temple. Christianity has no temples. I understand that groups of christians need to pool some resources together to have some place to meet and to take care of expenses. Since it is also unscriptural for a local body of believers to have one main pastor over them my belief is that the ideal is that pastors, elders, deacons, should work to support their families and share the work of the ministry. I don't believe there should be a "professional" class of ministers, pastors, etc. I do believe that there are talented and faithful men that should be supported in specialized ministries, like bible translation, evangelism, missionary work, many different things. Christians should definitely give to these specialized ministries if they feel lead. I believe we should also be good stewards of our resources so we have something left to help those we come across in our daily lives who need help.

I also believe that the Lord does hold us accountable for who and what we give to.

My belief is that these denominational monoliths that are built up by the tithes of church members will continue to be operational after christians have been caught up into the air with Christ.

Jassy 07-26-2009 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24752)
Oh Jassy, this is so sad.....? As I've said before I am the daughter-in-law of a pastor, the wife of a pastor and assistant pastor...very close to pastor's families and leadership in many churches and while I've heard of this type of behaviour I've never seen anyone exibit the behaviour you are describing? Most of the pastors I know are bi-vocational and are certainly not in it for the money...
I would like to defend the churches I am associated with possibly inserted in this broad generalization...While it's despicable that there are churches out there like that, I'd would dare say that in a true Bible Believing Baptist church this is hardly the norm. But I can undestand that if you've come from a bad situation one can be touchy on many areas and I am sorry for that...



I would say that if you honestly cannot in good conscience trust your tithe to a church
then you need to find a church you can trust.



I do not know any true Christians like this personally, but I do know that my aunt who was in a Mennonite cult had her faith destroyed by this very teaching. They were churched for basically always being poor as they taught it was an outward sign of an inward sin. They got out of church and now she is a self professed Athiest with 8 children. Very sad situation.

We need to be careful to consider what the Bible has to say on these matters and do the best we know. The Lord will not hold us accountable for another's transgressions. If you were to give your tithes to a church and they were not good stewards of that money, if you gave as unto the Lord that is all that matters.

Sis Amanda,

Thank you for graciously pointing out some errors in my previous post. I should have started with "Some of the most common Scriptures used in the FALSE churches today..." because the true Body of Christ of a surety would not.

Yes, since I was involved in that false church for so long, as a new Christian, I developed many false understandings about the Bible. Add to that the fact that I am Deaf and the church provided a "notetaker" for me - who was putting her own added SPIN on things - and you begin to see that I had to go through some serious de-programming to get where I am today. That came out later, about the notetaking, when the minister saw her notes!

I still make mistakes that I don't intend to make. I do believe that the Lord has given us the Holy Spirit - and we are to listen to that Holy Spirit. I was a new "babe in Christ" and I did have many uncomfortable feelings being in that church but I had put it down to my own shortcomings and imperfections. I thought I was not WORTHY of these seemingly PERFECT Christians!! It was more like an ACT for them, and I began to see it. I finally left the church and was more confused than ever.

I am so thankful that the Holy Spirit led me to the TRUTH and that I am so much more well-grounded in truth than I ever was in the past.

I apologize if I made any insinuation that your church or any churches that you know of personally have this type of gross error. I'm sure they don't.

Again, I was referring to FALSE churches, regarding the money and the trust. I see programs on TV where the ministers BEG for money and it just is NOT becoming of the Church. It gives a false impression that THIS is the way that believers fund their ministries.

Currently, I attend no church. There are no KJV-only churches where I live. I've tried attending many churches and most are very strongly CALVINISTIC (which I disagree with) or they are very worldly churches.

I would greatly love to find a church!! Being, deaf, I would need a sign language interpreter - and that adds an additional aspect, which is not commonly available.

I don't see that we need to put our money into a church. I put some of my money into Bible tracts and I put some of my money into native missionaries. I also "donate" services that I do - such as editing English for foreign Christians' church webpages, enhancing photographs (adding light to dark photos) of church activities, etc. (I am fairly skilled in Photoshop.)

Yes, I agree that we need to be careful to consider what the Bible has to say on these matters. Absolutely.

I apologize if you feel that I was being disrespectful or critical of your church or any TRUE churches. I was speaking of the FALSE churches - which are proliferic in the world.

Thank you again for your corrections, sis.

Jassy

Jassy 07-26-2009 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 24757)
I believe the practice of tithing to a church organization is unscriptural. Tithing was a Jewish law for the Jewish temple. Christianity has no temples. I understand that groups of christians need to pool some resources together to have some place to meet and to take care of expenses. Since it is also unscriptural for a local body of believers to have one main pastor over them my belief is that the ideal is that pastors, elders, deacons, should work to support their families and share the work of the ministry. I don't believe there should be a "professional" class of ministers, pastors, etc. I do believe that there are talented and faithful men that should be supported in specialized ministries, like bible translation, evangelism, missionary work, many different things. Christians should definitely give to these specialized ministries if they feel lead. I believe we should also be good stewards of our resources so we have something left to help those we come across in our daily lives who need help. I also believe that the Lord does hold us accountable for who and what we give to.

My belief is that these denominational monoliths that are built up by the tithes of church members will continue to be operational after christians have been caught up into the air with Christ.

:amen: sis Jen!! Especially on that last sentence! I agree with that - the Body of Christ will be caught up in the air - and these false churches will still be having their Sunday go-to-church meetings... completely oblivious!

Jassy

Biblestudent 07-26-2009 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 24757)
Since it is also unscriptural for a local body of believers to have one main pastor over them my belief is that the ideal is that pastors, elders, deacons, should work to support their families and share the work of the ministry.

Hi, greenbear! I would disagree with the idea that for a pastor to work a secular job (if that's what you meant) rather than be fully supported by the church is the ideal situation.

The "ideal" is for preachers to be supported by the church where they labor. The Lord ordained it to be so (1 Cor. 9:14). God's servants have power to forbear working (1 Cor. 9:2ff), but they have the option not to use that power.

"Tentmaking" is necessary in special occasions.

Now, if the "ideal" would be a stumblingblock to carnal Christians, I'd rather "make tents" than make my glorying void.

Samuel 07-26-2009 10:55 PM

Quote:

Since it is also unscriptural for a local body of believers to have one main pastor over them my belief is that the ideal is that pastors, elders, deacons, should work to support their families and share the work of the ministry. I don't believe there should be a "professional" class of ministers, pastors, etc.
Sounds like a Primitive Baptist to me. :D There are some Professional P. B. Ministers, but they take their support as donations, not salaries. And they usually minister at more than one Church.

In general though, it is handled just as you have stated above. As far as supporting Missions and such, most do not, based on no mention of mission organizations in scripture. But personal Evangelism is encouraged, if you want to foot the bill. Some more liberal/moderate P.B. Churches might even do that. But no mission organizations.

greenbear 07-26-2009 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 24761)
Hi, greenbear! I would disagree with the idea that for a pastor to work a secular job (if that's what you meant) rather than be fully supported by the church is the ideal situation.

The "ideal" is for preachers to be supported by the church where they labor. The Lord ordained it to be so (1 Cor. 9:14). God's servants have power to forbear working (1 Cor. 9:2ff), but they have the option not to use that power.

"Tentmaking" is necessary in special occasions.

Now, if the "ideal" would be a stumblingblock to carnal Christians, I'd rather "make tents" than make my glorying void.

Hi, Biblestudent.

Of course you are absolutely correct. I'll add:

1 Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

As you may have gathered, I am of the belief that the "Christian" churches are apostatized to a great degree. I believe that when a church gets to be a certain size, they have a large property with the incumbent expenses, they are beholden to a church board for their salary, etc. so "pastor(s)" can be swayed by interests within the church who want to control what is preached and taught. On a large denominational basis this problem is amplified. We are not in the same circumstance as was the early church in Paul's time. Denomination after denomination has fallen into apostasy. This is a personal conviction and I understand not everyone would hold this view. It is by no means wrong for a church body to pay the salaries of the elders. I just think there are certain benefits to having lay elders. If that makes me a carnal christian, so be it! Of course, christians aren't going to reorganize their church structures to suit me. Your english is so perfect I have assumed you must be an American missionary pastoring a church in the Philippines. I pray that God blesses your ministry.

greenbear 07-26-2009 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel (Post 24762)
Sounds like a Primitive Baptist to me. :D There are some Professional P. B. Ministers, but they take their support as donations, not salaries. And they usually minister at more than one Church.

In general though, it is handled just as you have stated above. As far as supporting Missions and such, most do not, based on no mention of mission organizations in scripture. But personal Evangelism is encouraged, if you want to foot the bill. Some more liberal/moderate P.B. Churches might even do that. But no mission organizations.

Samuel, I hope you don't mind me borrowing your term "denominational monoliths" but it was really too good to pass up. I've never heard of Primitive Baptist churches. The Primitive part sounds very good but I don't believe baptism is for the dispensation of Grace so I'm only half way there. My husband and I plan on attending a Grace church, as in grace believers, the same kind of church as Tonybones.

I know there is no "Great Commission" for the church age but I do believe that God has used the English speaking nations to spread the gospel throughout the world. I see every reason to spread the gospel to other nations during the church age.

May God bless you,

Jennifer

greenbear 07-27-2009 12:52 AM

I was also thinking about the idea on another thread about how the circumstances in people's lives when they come to Christ aren't always neat and tidy, they can be very troublesome and difficult. I realized that we are born into certain circumstances, maybe our family is Baptist, maybe Pentecostal, these are the people we know, and opportunities arise to serve the Lord within that organization. We're just born into this world the way it already is, we don't get to start everything from scratch the way we'd like it to be according to the perfect pattern. If a man is appointed as the head pastor of a mainline Baptist church, or any other denomination, and faithfully preaches the gospel of grace light on legalistic tendencies, or in the case of some denominations, they actually preach the gospel at all, and people get saved then Praise God! Nothing in this world is going to be done just the way we think it should be done and God can still work through imperfect circumstances. Anyway, just trying to be more reasonable and realistic. What I wrote before is what I believe things should be like, not necessarily the way we as individual christians find them to be in reality.

PaulB 07-27-2009 02:43 AM

tithing
 
Now that many of you have made it clear that we are not commanded to tithe it seems to paint a whole new picture to me in the realm of giving. If I tithe because I am commanded to do so I don’t really feel like I am giving out of the abundance of my heart but rather because it is expected of me. It is a bit like when a child is told to tidy his room (as you mothers will know!), if he/she does it to please you then you know that it is genuine (that is if they are not secretly seeking something in return that they know that you will give to them because they did it!). but if a child is under compulsion to keep that room tidy then genuine gratitude becomes all the harder to notice. It becomes a bit like a form of employment where we do it because it is expected of us rather than because we want to.

Jassy you make some very good points and I can see from your post that it has been a first hand experience for you. I have belonged to a couple of Pentecostal churches that have hammered tithing as a doctrine to the extent that you would have thought that you were sitting in a banking seminar for its staff.

I have experienced personal rebuke for being in debt with cc/loans (that is when I was in that position a few years ago with a wife and baby to provide for). I worked 6 days a week and spent many nights away from home often working 15 hours a day and sleeping rough at night because of my job. But what hurt me the most was the fact that after being personally rebuked for being in debt and then blamed for being in that position for “Not tithing” all of these ministers were living in luxury, going on expensive holidays and driving fancy cars. And to top if off – the stress on tithing was their way of dealing with the debt that the church had with the bank because of the massive building project that it had taken on.

They preached that you’ve got to have “faith” and that to be in debt was a sign of a lack of it, then they would batter us with the Malachi verses and just about everything else that they could use to get the offering back filled to the max. The churches where we encountered this were both brand new multimillion £££££$$$$$ complexes (one with a gymnasium and both with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ spent on the development of the “music ministry”. If that wasn’t enough I don’t know how much was spent on them having trips paid for so that a number of them could go to Toronto in order to bring the “Toronto blessing” back to the UK.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ was spent on media advertising to push a self styled promotion known as the “JIM Challenge” (Jesus in me). It was all about buck and growth for bucks and popularity as I could see it. People didn’t matter, it was full auditoriums that counted. It was an awful time for us as a family and ended up in us moving on but the trouble was the church that we moved to was hardly any different.

Within one year we had to endure the same series preached twice on the Christians responsibility to tithe and what was worse was the fact that these sermons weren’t even the work of the pastor, he printed them off from one of these “church growth” websites (pastors.com) I think!

I also take Amanda’s point that these people will have to answer to God for the heavy burdens that they lay upon men’s backs and do nothing to lift it and that not all pastors are out to fleece their flocks. But you can see why I raised the question in the first place and why answers to questions like these are very practical and important to the common people.

Thanks for your responses

God bless

PaulB

Ps. Where is Fredoheaven? I haven’t heard from you in ages! Can you contact me on Paulonline@fsmail.net ?

Amanda S. 07-27-2009 07:53 AM

Bro. Paul,

I certainly can see why you would feel that way!

Everyone has baggage and experiences that cause them to form their ideas and make them wary and cautious. It is important to remember that when dealing with new Christians especially. Thank you for the reminder.

But I do feel however that after years of growing in the Lord we should try and put aside these fears in light of God's Word and even if cautiously do our best to obey the principles set forth in the Bible.

In my own life and dealings with people through the years I have learned to have more grace and mercy when dealing with these issues. It usually doesn't take very long to discern a soft heart wanting to do right (as you described you and your wife's situation above) and one who wants to use their liberty in Christ to live as they please. While I don't condemn, ostracize, scorn or any other such harsh words the latter, I do think it is futile to deal with them as their minds are made up and they will use the lack of Scripture to support their position. I personally have not come across too many of these people in church, however I am sure they are there.

Quote:

If I tithe because I am commanded to do so I don’t really feel like I am giving out of the abundance of my heart but rather because it is expected of me.
Absolutely right.

Did you read the article I posted? What was your thoughts on that?

CKG 07-27-2009 01:02 PM

CKG original comment - Nowhere does it say Abraham was commanded to tithe

Brother Presswood - I agree, which confirms that tithing is written on the heart and not just the law.

Scripture mentions no such thing. If tithing is written on the heart then why is there no record of people like Noah or Isaac ever tithing?

CKG original comment - and he didn't tithe of all that he had; only of the spoils of the battle (Hebrews 7:4).

Brother Presswood - The account in Genesis says that he gave "tithes of all." The passage in Hebrews merely states that he did, indeed, give a tenth of the spoils, which were included in "all" mentioned in Genesis.

Genesis 14:20 states that he gave tithes of all. All of what? It doesn’t say. It doesn’t say he gave tithes of all of his possessions. How do we know what all he gave tithes of? By comparing scripture with scripture. Hebrews 7:4 clarifies this by stating it was all of the spoils of the battle.

CKG original comment - Jacob vowed a vow to tithe, but there is no scriptural record that he ever carried out the vow.

Brother Presswood - There certainly is no reason to believe that he didn't keep his vow.

We can only go by what the Scripture says. If a person wants to believe Jacob fulfilled the vow then that’s their opinion, but it can’t be substantiated with Scripture.


CKG original comment - It's interesting that twice (Romans 4 and Galatians 3) Paul (the apostle to the Gentiles, the one to whom was given the fullest understanding of the church) mentions Abraham as the main example for justification by faith, but when he talks about giving he never mentions Abraham's tithing to Melchizedek as an example for the church.

Brother Presswood - If you believe, as do I, that Paul is the author of Hebrews, then he did use Abraham as an example

Who authored the book of Hebrews certainly makes for an interesting topic, but since the Bible doesn’t say who it’s author is I don’t get concerned about it. I’m satisfied it is inspired by God and it’s authorship has no bearing on my understanding of it. As far as Hebrews 7 goes, that passage of scripture has nothing to do with tithing in the church age. Tithing is only mentioned as part of a comparison between Melchizedek and the Levitical priesthood. In Hebrews 8:1 the writer sums up what has been said:
Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens
This verse clarifies the writer's purpose for bringing up the subject of Abraham and Melchizedek—to show that we have a greater high priest. He wasn't teaching tithing to the church either directly or indirectly.

Samuel 07-27-2009 01:04 PM

Quote:

Samuel, I hope you don't mind me borrowing your term "denominational monoliths" but it was really too good to pass up. I've never heard of Primitive Baptist churches.
Not at all I do that ever once in a while, come up with something different that is. :)

Not a lot of people do know about Primitive Baptists, There is really no organization. Each Church is autonomous, and some of them do not even associate with the others. It depends on their acceptance, of the other Churches by-laws. Sort like an every man for himself denomination, but they really do not consider themselves a denomination either, no Bible for that either. :) Its like if the Bible says it ok, if the Bible doesn't say it, then its not.

Its mostly a deep South Church, a lot of them right here in NC. Some have grouped together and formed a loose non official organization, and have a district meeting once a year.

greenbear 07-27-2009 04:34 PM

Samuel
Quote:

Sort like an every man for himself denomination, but they really do not consider themselves a denomination either, no Bible for that either. Its like if the Bible says it ok, if the Bible doesn't say it, then its not.
Yeah, grew up in agnosic family, never considered Jesus as a real historical figure not once in my life, met a SDA at work, believed Jesus was an historical figure, read lots of EG WHITE, couldn't cut it, blood sugar issues require meat, always found a reason to buy something on Saturday, left SDA in defeat, went to Charismatic church, failed at speaking in tongues, slain in the spirit, given spirit of repentance, cried non-stop for two days, missed work, many other like experiences, finally prayed for understanding of Bible, shortly thereafter met husband, he taught me what's what from the Bible, actually started reading Bible and understanding Bible, realized KJV only one not corrupt, went to many different churches, all say different things, no 2 alike, not rocket science they can't all be right, most use corrupt bibles, decided to stick with Bible, not a lot of contact with Christians for 15 years, came on this forum, actually find some people we agree with on most things because they teach from Bible as final authority, find others that want me to believe them even if it's not in Bible, I don't believe them so I am not mature Christian, still learning fine art of getting along with christians they are so different.

Samuel 07-27-2009 05:19 PM

greenbear.

I can sympathize with the Charismatic experience. I was married to a woman for 20 years, who's whole family was Charismatic. I have been called the Devil, rebuked, and cursed so many times you would not believe.

As a result of that it has left me with a really critical spirit, sort of like a scar from an old cut. I have prayed about many times, but then again in today's world it might just prove to be a blessing, as long as I keep it under control.

As for getting along with all Christians "Good Luck", that is especially if you don't just accept every cockamamie idea that comes down the pipe. :)

greenbear 07-27-2009 05:43 PM

Samuel,

I understand your experience with charismatics. I believe my main hurt comes from the legalism of the SDA church, the years of torment believing I could not be saved. Then in the "real" churches seeing salvation by grace through faith alone offered with one hand while at the same time force-feeding works based religion with the other hand. And if you disagree then you are suspect. You are so right, though. A critical spirit is hypocrisy and keeps Christ's love from flowing through us. (I'm not speaking of you, but me, you have shown love.) We end up as devoid of love as a Pharisee. I can't seem to remember... I must keep my eyes on Christ.

In His love,

Jennifer

Samuel 07-27-2009 06:10 PM

greenbear.

My son had a friend who is mixed up in the SDA. In fact he has been convinced to go somewhere else several times, and attended a Baptist church for several years.

But now has reverted to the SDA again, I guess some people just can't accept Salvation unless it is filled with works, but the problem there is no Salvation by works.

He even brought me some DVD's here awhile back he wanted me to watch. I watched them, then told him what was wrong with them, he is still attending SDC.

greenbear 07-27-2009 06:46 PM

Samuel,

It is all about the heart. Can we admit that we are what God says we are? If we cannot, then we will believe there is something we can do to be like Him.


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