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Luke 06-28-2009 09:32 PM

The Fire
 
Apparently this is the next "big thing" online. First it was Paul Washer's "Shocking Sermon" and now this..

I haven't watched it.

Can someone give me the run down if they have seen it. From what I hear, he doesn't even mention salvation in it... just a message to stop sinning..

There are two parts apparently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8APpLIWTBZE

greenbear 06-28-2009 11:02 PM

What I got from this guy's message is that you had better hate sin enough and be good enough or Christ will say He never knew you and you will go to the Lake of Fire. What constitutes good enough is not defined. I guess he thinks there's some kind of critical mass of sin that will finally send a christian to hell.

I feel so bad for any christian who doesn't understand that Christ did it all and that there is nothing we can contribute to His salvation. I'd say to them that our hatred of sin and good works come because we have the indwelling of His Spirit in our new man. It's not possible for hatred of sin and good works not to happen, but sometimes the old man gains preeminence We'll have the old man to contend with until the day we die or are raptured. Anyone who claims they don't have this struggle is lying.

If what this guy says is true then no one will make it to heaven. It's all or nothing with God. You either try to make it through by your own righteousness or by Christs righteousness. I'm so glad He came to die for my sins so I don't have to go to that place forever and ever. Thank you, Jesus.

He referred to Christ's suffering but I didn't hear any salvation message. Maybe there was and I missed it but I am not willing to listen to that thing again.

tonybones2112 06-29-2009 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 22983)
What I got from this guy's message is that you had better hate sin enough and be good enough or Christ will say He never knew you and you will go to the Lake of Fire. What constitutes good enough is not defined. I guess he thinks there's some kind of critical mass of sin that will finally send a christian to hell.

I feel so bad for any christian who doesn't understand that Christ did it all and that there is nothing we can contribute to His salvation. I'd say to them that our hatred of sin and good works come because we have the indwelling of His Spirit in our new man. It's not possible for hatred of sin and good works not to happen, but sometimes the old man gains preeminence We'll have the old man to contend with until the day we die or are raptured. Anyone who claims they don't have this struggle is lying.

If what this guy says is true then no one will make it to heaven. It's all or nothing with God. You either try to make it through by your own righteousness or by Christs righteousness. I'm so glad He came to die for my sins so I don't have to go to that place forever and ever. Thank you, Jesus.

He referred to Christ's suffering but I didn't hear any salvation message. Maybe there was and I missed it but I am not willing to listen to that thing again.

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal. 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

This is what I'm talking about a lot of people out there not being Scripturally grounded and then hitting the Internet. I'm on dialup and don't take 3 hours to download videos off youtube, looks like I ain't missing much. Thanks for bringing this to our attention Luke and Jen.

I found a Grace website that has some of the best books available in free .pdf format, I spotted one on "lordship" salvation and I think I'll refresh my memory and download it.

Grace and peace friends

Tony

chette777 06-29-2009 03:55 AM

One of the nicest book on both the doctrine and the application of Grace was "Grace" by Lewis Sperry Chafer.

what web site was it that you found that had some good books free and in PDF?

greenbear 06-29-2009 09:33 AM

Chette, thanks for the recommendation of "Grace" by Lewis Sperry Chafer. I'll add it to my growing list. :)

Tony, would you mind sharing that website you mentioned? :)
It has been a dozen years since I read Things That Differ, or much of anything else for that matter (including the bible), until around 6 weeks ago. I'm finding I can understand things more clearly than I did 10-15 years ago. I just started reading Stam's book again. You're right, He is calvinist. I guess I wasn't really aware of the distinction when I read it before. Still, what a great study.

Your sister in Christ,

Jennifer

Luke 06-29-2009 02:54 PM

This isn't a book, but it's something by Lewis Sperry Chafer called "Grace". Is this what you are thinking of Chette?

http://duluthbible.org/widgets/downl..._00_Chafer.pdf

(I am not sure if that link will work).

tonybones2112 06-29-2009 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 22988)
Chette, thanks for the recommendation of "Grace" by Lewis Sperry Chafer. I'll add it to my growing list. :)

Tony, would you mind sharing that website you mentioned? :)
It has been a dozen years since I read Things That Differ, or much of anything else for that matter (including the bible), until around 6 weeks ago. I'm finding I can understand things more clearly than I did 10-15 years ago. I just started reading Stam's book again. You're right, He is calvinist. I guess I wasn't really aware of the distinction when I read it before. Still, what a great study.

Your sister in Christ,

Jennifer

http://www.dovhost.com/grace-books.htm

Luke, Jen, Chette, almost the bottom of the page is Joseph Fink's book on Lordship Salvation. Jen, things That Differ is on the top, along with much more. I found this site by accident, I googles .pdf books on Lordship Salvation and found this site. It's a goldmine. These books are free to download. I too have crave to read Things That Differ also. SOme of Ruckman's more benign Commentaries I'd love to read again too though I don't preach and teach out of a book other than the Scriptures.

Fink is KJV believer, Stam wasn't. You need to ignore his unlearned opinions on the KJV where they pop up. He was a mighty soldier for Christ and a Grace believer like me, but there's no excuse for correcting the Bible no matter who it is. Ruckman does it in his exposition on the "gap" theory in his Commentary on Genesis, so I guess it's pretty abundant on both sides the "dry cleaner" issue.

Grace and peace friends

Tony

tonybones2112 06-29-2009 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 22987)
One of the nicest book on both the doctrine and the application of Grace was "Grace" by Lewis Sperry Chafer.

what web site was it that you found that had some good books free and in PDF?

My apologies friends. The book on Lordship Salvation is by Joel Finck. I'm reviving a computer, sewing rawhide, and generally doing too many things at once.

Sister Jennifer, yes, Stam was a Calvinist and a Bible corrector, but just sift him for what is true. I'm sure your perspective, like many of mine, is different now than what it once was.

Grace and peace

Tony

Luke 06-29-2009 04:39 PM

Oh yeah, that book by Joel Finck is great. He is a dispensationalist.. not sure if he is a grace believer, but he is definitely a right divider.

Luke 06-29-2009 05:16 PM

I don't mind the kind of Calvinism that Stam and Stanford express. It rarely comes across as the Reformed type does, but is more moderate. When they write, they still write as though they believe man has a free will, because they do, and try to justify it with their "compatibilist" doctrines. They are inconsistent calvinists at best, so I don't mind.

I might have to buy a few books on rightly dividing by Stam. I think Ruckman sells a few in his book store.

chette777 06-29-2009 06:45 PM

Luke,

that is part of his book Grace. I think that came from an article and only covers part of what the book says. If you read it through it shows he is not a Calvinist as some would insist.

Tbones,

Chafer and Stam are at the opposite extremes of Dispensationalism. Chafer would be a moderate whiles Stam would be a hyper

greenbear 06-29-2009 09:29 PM

Luke (and anybody),

Would you consider yourself to be a libertarian freewiller? So far the best I can do is to stick with the truth that God's thoughts are higher than my thoughts and leave it at that while rejecting both Calvinism and Arminianism as unbiblical. I guess I have some vaguely defined idea similar to compatibilism but I guess that must be wrong if it hinges on Total Depravity, which I know is wrong.

Jennifer

Luke 06-29-2009 09:50 PM

I don't know what you mean by Libertarian Freewill?

I reject both Arminian and Calvinist doctrines, but find points of agreement in both (and points of disagreement in both too).

greenbear 06-29-2009 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 23015)
I don't know what you mean by Libertarian Freewill?

I reject both Arminian and Calvinist doctrines, but find points of agreement in both (and points of disagreement in both too).

I'd never heard the term before but I found it when I looked up the meaning of compatibilism.

http://www.theopedia.com/Libertarian_free_will

chette777 06-29-2009 11:41 PM

I am a King James Bible Believer

Forrest 06-30-2009 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 22983)
I feel so bad for any christian who doesn't understand that Christ did it all and that there is nothing we can contribute to His salvation.

I do too. And for that matter, what can we even contribute in the Christian life? Christ is the beginning, the end, and everything in between! Just keep looking unto Him.

greenbear 06-30-2009 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 23057)
I do too. And for that matter, what can we even contribute in the Christian life? Christ is the beginning, the end, and everything in between! Just keep looking unto Him.

Amen, brother Forrest. I never really "got it" before. My self-condemnation and having my eyes focused on my own performance hindered and frustrated my walk in the past. I trust Him to do it all now.

Jassy 07-02-2009 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 23001)

Brother Tony, Thanks for the GREAT books link! I downloaded some of them to read!

I trust the LORD to guide me in what to believe and what to kindly discard from man's writings. We do the same when hearing a sermon, don't we? We aren't looking to correct... but simply to compare with Scripture for the accuracy and to know if it is something edifying for our Christian life or not.

I think these books may help me when trying to show the difference between LAW and GRACE - for those stubborn Sabbath-day keepers!!:D

Jassy

greenbear 07-02-2009 11:24 PM

WOW!

Thanks for the link, Tony. You're right, it is a gold mine!!!

gold miner in Christ,

Jen

chette777 07-03-2009 12:56 AM

Ladies, and Gentlemen,

Do take care in reading these grace books from C Stam and others. compare them with clear scripture and remember not to be caught by fair speeches and good arguments. Study out the whole context and the keep in mind God's character throughout the whole Bible. His extreme Hyper-divisionistic views are not balanced and the errors are subtle and we need to keep Biblical balance to Gods word.

I like some of Stam's work but I take it with a grain of salt. where it is good use it where it is bad throw it out and stick to the word of God.

Also, you can download many good books by Lewis Sperry Chafer from Gutenberg Press.com or org or email me I will send you some zipped copies

tonybones2112 07-03-2009 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jassy (Post 23153)
Brother Tony, Thanks for the GREAT books link! I downloaded some of them to read!

I trust the LORD to guide me in what to believe and what to kindly discard from man's writings. We do the same when hearing a sermon, don't we? We aren't looking to correct... but simply to compare with Scripture for the accuracy and to know if it is something edifying for our Christian life or not.

I think these books may help me when trying to show the difference between LAW and GRACE - for those stubborn Sabbath-day keepers!!:D

Jassy

You are very welcome sister. There is some great reading over there. As I said though, you have to filter Stam, he came out of the Dutch Reformed Church in Holland Michican and is a petrified, stone hard absolute predestiniarian Calvinist.

Grace and peace

Tony

tonybones2112 07-03-2009 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 23012)
Luke,

that is part of his book Grace. I think that came from an article and only covers part of what the book says. If you read it through it shows he is not a Calvinist as some would insist.

Tbones,

Chafer and Stam are at the opposite extremes of Dispensationalism. Chafer would be a moderate whiles Stam would be a hyper

It's really hard to classify each individual person Chette, Stam held to the outmoded "Lord's supper ordinance" that I don't, so I'd consider him "moderate" compared to me. Bullinger's followers took his teachings and ran them into the ground to the point they ended up as Unitarians and Universal salvationists. It's the lunatics who cause hyperfundamentalists like Dr. Ruckman and Ironside to classify Grace believers as "heretics", plus the plain cold fear of the simple doctrine of the free grace of God.

Hyperfundamentalism allows us to glory in ourselves, in our flesh, with our water baptism and Lordly suppers(the meaning of the "Lord's supper" is every meal you eat you remember Who provided it for you and what it took for Him to provide it to you), out "tithing" and Cadillacs, three piece suits and hairballs, long dresses on our women that were considered "innaproptriate dress" in the 19th century because it was "attractive". "Confessing" sin "to God" that's already been forgiven, going "into all the world". Where can I donate for support to missionaries in Cuba, North Korea, and Iran? So we have become spiritual darwinists and "evolved" Hyperfundamentalism that let's us feel good about ourselves.

Grace will not let us glory in ourselves, it ony allows us to glory in Him. Grace robs us of all of being little Jobs, it lets us be flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone.

Grace and peace to you brother

Tony

tonybones2112 07-03-2009 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 23014)
Luke (and anybody),

Would you consider yourself to be a libertarian freewiller? So far the best I can do is to stick with the truth that God's thoughts are higher than my thoughts and leave it at that while rejecting both Calvinism and Arminianism as unbiblical. I guess I have some vaguely defined idea similar to compatibilism but I guess that must be wrong if it hinges on Total Depravity, which I know is wrong.

Jennifer

Jen, I consider myself antinomian, and before arteries start to explode, the phrase simply means "no law", which is what Romans and Galatians are about. It's not a license to sin, sin is the antithesis of being created unto good works. I've known Christians who were degenerate gamblers. Hard to be an ambassador for Christ when your mind is constantly on the lottery numbers.

Arminianism, losing salvation, was Biblical in the OT. Judas Iscariot had the "signs" of an apostle, he was an apostle. It will be the same in the Tribulation, and even worse in the Millenium. I rejct Calvin's predestination, it's the Greek philosophy of Fatalism. The Stoics and Epicureans of Acts 17 were Fatalists.

Grace and peace

Tony

chette777 07-04-2009 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 23168)
It's really hard to classify each individual person Chette, Stam held to the outmoded "Lord's supper ordinance"

Stam also has the view that baptism is not for today based on every argument you showed on that subject in another thread. There was very little I disagreed with him in his dispensational teaching. His book of Acts study is another thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toneynbones2112 (Post 23168)
It's the lunatics who cause hyperfundamentalists like Dr. Ruckman and Ironside to classify Grace believers as "heretics", plus the plain cold fear of the simple doctrine of the free grace of God.

Ruckman as far as I have read calls Stam a hyper heretic not because of the doctrine of free grace but because at times he changes the KJV to fit his interpretation and because of his hyper-division of the New Testament. I have never read in any of Ruckman state anything against him that mention free grace. I agree with your conclusion of Bullinger's followers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toneynbones2112 (Post 23168)
Hyperfundamentalism allows us to glory in ourselves, in our flesh, with our water baptism and Lordly suppers(the meaning of the "Lord's supper" is every meal you eat you remember Who provided it for you and what it took for Him to provide it to you), out "tithing" and Cadillacs, three piece suits and hairballs, long dresses on our women that were considered "innaproptriate dress" in the 19th century because it was "attractive". "Confessing" sin "to God" that's already been forgiven, going "into all the world". Where can I donate for support to missionaries in Cuba, North Korea, and Iran? So we have become spiritual darwinists and "evolved" Hyperfundamentalism that let's us feel good about ourselves.

Now I am not one for enforcing tithing. I teach it only as a form of giving today seeing it is to be and I quote Paul, "2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." there is no tithing there and in Mal 4 it tells us that was given only for the nation Israel. I believe tithing for Christians is only a type of giving but they are under no such law to do so.

I am grateful for those who give to missions because without their support we would starve and would have to come home. I believe God uses people who can't go into the foreign field to help those who do. this does not negate their responsibility to reach the lost where they are at. I am not the typical missionary who went by a mission board required to raise $40,000 a year support so the board could take 10% for their operational costs. I went out with only a $20 a month promise from a man who may never have kept his word. I will have to share that story some time with you, but it was lunch hours spent in a dark basement praying to God to supply for me in the Philippines.

I am casual in dress and character. MY church is casual in dress and character as well, we simply worship the Lord and simply teach his word simply to simple men who desire the Lord more in their lives. My fellowship has been stable at 40 plus or so members for almost two years. we have had a 3 young men and a women in the last year join our fellowship. the average monthly offering in our church offering box opened at the end of each month is $10 an d it goes to the church needs. I and my wife give all the rest from our own support which varies from $50 to $500 per month.

We have seen the Lord use men and women to pay for a Car for us (which I could never have bought otherwise), the Lord used these people who give to build our house which for 10 year never had a finish coat of plaster on the out side and the birds were digging into the cement hollow tiles turning our home into a giant bird house. this last 2 weeks the plastering was finished. we have no ceilings in our home when it rains you can't even hear yourself think. We are praying for the Lords supply for that. My kids go to a school that the educational program is accepted in the States in case he calls us back it cost $350 per head per year. not a lot but when you don't have it to pay and you need to make payments each month. All that because people give to our mission work. we teach grace and faith.

I want to do aquabarrelponic seminars for the poor to teach them how to raise fish and vegetables in a small area of space. all that can only be don't by people giving as I have no money myself to do so. Just so I might have the chance to talk to them about Jesus Christ, seminars are a captive audience and when you meet their needs physically free they are happy to let you tell them about free salvation in Christ Jesus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 23168)
Grace will not let us glory in ourselves, it only allows us to glory in Him. Grace robs us of all of being little Jobs, it lets us be flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone.

As I learn to draw closer to Jesus Christ as my all in all I learn that all glory is unto him and to our God. I seek only to glorify him in all I do. though at times it may seem I come short of that goal to you and others. Gos knows my heart. that is why in my ministry is not about competing with other Missionaries to rack up souls or how big or how great a work we are doing. I don't inflate my ministry in any way. I simply share what is going on and let god have the glory.

Luke 07-04-2009 07:40 PM

Why would Ruckman sell & recommend Stam's books if he calls him a heretic?

chette777 07-05-2009 02:12 AM

You know Luke I was wondering the same thing when I read Tbones post. I concluded that TBones made a typo.

Does Ruckman endorse and sell his books? If so is he selling them for people to verify the errors or to gain better understanding in the problems that Ruckman identifies in Stam's books? or is he selling them for Stam's truthful teaching? we would have to ask Ruckman or someone at the Bookstore.

Some people do sell the material of those they critique so people can see the errors of extremism for themselves.

We will just have to wait and see if TBones can shed more light on that

Luke 07-05-2009 02:40 AM

Oh, I didn't even see Tony's post. I know it's a fact. He sells a few of Stams books. I think he has "things that are different" and "Dispensational Truth" or something. He even recommends one or two of them in his top 100 Christian books that I found somewhere on his website.

chette777 07-05-2009 02:47 AM

I have read both of those books by Stam. I agree with about 99% is it the 1% you have to be careful of.

Well then if Ruckman calls him a heretic it is only for some extreme views of the NT and his changing Gods word to fit his meaning


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