Is water baptism for today?
 

In one of the recent threads elsewhere in the forum, the issue of water baptism was brought up. I am not a dispensationalist myself, so my interpretation is different from the start, but I would like to find out how widespread is this doctrine that water baptism is not for today's believers.

I'll start out the discussion by saying that I fully believe in the ordinance of water baptism for believers today. If I am wrong, then I am in biiiig TROUBLE, 'cause I've lost count of the number that I have baptized.

Before I can vote on this, I need to know if you mean that water baptism is part of salvation, or if it done as a publick proclamation of what has already taken place for the believer?

I got baptized after I got saved, but not TO be saved.

And in no way can anyone scripturally support the lunacy of infant baptism, although they sprinkled me when I was a baby, accomplishing nothing.

The intent was baptism AFTER salvation, not as a part. That's why I used "for believers" in the question. There is not much room for the question so I took the best shot I could. I would HOPE that no regular posters here believe in baptism as a requirement for salvation, but there may be someone lurking here that does.

Please, anyone, comment along with your vote.

Of course Bro. Tim! Believer's Baptism is Biblical and yes---we understand it is NOT required as part of salvation---but definitely water baptism is most certainly for believers today. And let me be clear when we say BAPTISM we are not talking about a Catholic sprinkle---only immersion (burial) symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord. Christian baptism is important because it is a step of obedience – publicly declaring our faith in Christ. And I say that as an Independent, Fundamental Baptist. :)

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Roman 6:4

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col 2:12

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. Acts 16:31-33

Well said, Brother Parrish.

Yes, I believe that water baptism (by immersion) is Biblically correct today. However, I got baptized after I got saved, not before. Salvation is to put your trust on the Lord Jesus Christ and only Him to save you (John 14:6). I understand that baptism is nothing more than a public confession of faith for the born again believer, and NOT a requirement for salvation. Sure, I got sprinkled as a baby, but that's not worth anything in the LORD's eyes.

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." (1st Corinthians 1:17)

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Believers baptism is for today and until Christ returns...:)

In agreement with Bro Parrish.

Is water Baptism correct for believers today?

It is not for today if one is doing it to be saved?
It is not for today is one is doing it for the remission of sins?
It is not for today is one is wanting to join the Body of Christ?
It is not for today if it is for regeneration?
It is not for today if it is used for any other reason than the believers desire to make a public profession of their faith and Publicly identify with Christ?

You are a dispensationalist if you agree that Old Testament Salvation is different that Church Age Salvation.

You are a dispensationalist if you agree God has a different times dealt differently with mankind at different times. i.e. Garden, pre flood, post flood, pre-Israel, Israel, body of Christ, Tribulation, Millennial Kingdom, Eternity.

In my church we don't join by baptism...I was jumped into the fellowship by the deacons. Now I now why they carry canes and absolutely refuse to cash in their roles of nickels. :boxing:

I agree with all of the above, saved me a few lines extra :p

In WW2 Dick Winters of Easy Company led his men into the Battle Of The Bulge, to secure a perimeter around Bastonge to keep the Germans from accessing all the roads in and out of this city, as related in two episodes of the TV mini-series BAND OF BROTHERS. He also coined a world famous phrase. when told he would be surrounded, Winters said "We're paratroopers, we're supposed to be surrounded..." In that spirit and experience since first getting on the Internet in 1999 I have coined my own little phrase that many identify me by and with:

I'm Not Happy Unless I'm Outnumbered.

I'd like to offer this disclaimer: Since I joined this forum in Feb., one man came in here trying to I think preach Sabbatarianism and another tried to worm in with some kind of Gap Theory/Pre-Adamic Race cult. That is not the reason I came into this forum, I came for friendship, fellowship, and the chance to teach and be taught. My friends locally nicknamed me Apollos, but you never stop learning. I left a question on Pauline Dispensationalism by Bible Protector unanswered, and a question by Stephanos on my teaching on water baptism unanswered, and also when Tandi brought it up in another thread, I referred her to this thread. To those three and any others who asked me about it and maybe I missed answering them on this topic, I did not mean to be rude or ignore you. I'm not, as I stated before, here to preach Pauline Grace Movement dispensationalism. I'm here to help answer questions on general Bible topics and to lend my voice and identify myself as a "KJV-Only Extremist"/Discord-Among-The-Brethren-Sower/Church-Splitter on the bible "version" issue. Further, I am in no way affiliated with The Berean Bible Society or Cornelius Stam. Stam is a petrified extremist Calvinist, which he brought over into his dispensational teaching as baggage due to him being a prior member of The Dutch Reformed Church. Stam(I believe he died in 2003) was an Original Manuscript Fraud, and delighted in quoting the ASV of 1901 and retranslating the KJV. I studied under Pastor Richard Jordan who was fired as president of the Bereans by Stam in 1988 becasue Jordan said the KJV was the inspired word of God and the only version the Bereans would use. Jordan also attended Dr. Ruckman's school in Pensacola. I also reject the teaching among some sects of Grace Believers that the New Birth is not "for today", Ye must be born again, and also the kenosis theory of Christ "emptying Himself" of His Deity has also crept in unawares and I eschew and refute it. The Universalists have also a sect claiming to be "Pauline Mid-Acts Dispensationalists" who deny an eternal hell. Right, no hell. And my dog chews bubblegum too.

So, the overwhelming vast majority of you are Baptists, I am overwhelmingly a Great Commission/water baptism-denying Pauline Grace Believer. Is this a friendly, Scriptural debate, or just a poll? Are we just going to discuss why water baptism is not Grace Age Jewish-Gentile Body of Christ church doctrine for today, or just conduct a poll of who does and who don't? If so I will offer answers to objections to the doctrine of no water baptism for believers, if not, I'll return to my work of bible verse corruptions and the general forum.

Grace and peace my friends.

Tony

As the originator of the thread, I am qualified to define the purpose of the thread. I began with a poll because it is the simplest way to identify the degree of interest in the question.

I would hope that any (one at this moment-Tony) would expound on the reason why we today should not be baptized.

I would also hope that those of us who recognize the Scriptural mandate for believers to be baptized will back up our belief with evidence. [translate-show Tony the error of his ways and hope that he sees the light ... yeah,right! :( ]

Finally, I would hope that we who are right will present ourselves in a Godly way in all of our posts.

Be it known to all. I am not a dispensationalist. In this issue, I do not think that it makes a difference unless one falls completely over the dispensational ledge, as it appears that Tony has. [After all, he can't be right about everything! :) ]

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2...es/ban-him.jpg

Just kiddin' brother, you know I had to do it... :)
But seriously, do we have to go there?

Re: " Is water baptism for today?"
 

Aloha Brother Tim,

And as for me, since I am a Bible believer (who considers myself a "moderate" Dispensationalist) and have (in the past) attended "Brethren" churches and Independent Baptist churches; and other Independent "Bible" churches, etc., etc.; and for the last 17 years or so have been a part of a small independent Bible church (modeled on the churches of the New Testament). I not only find myself in agreement with brother Tony most of the time, but would prefer to have him as a friend and a member of this Forum than the Bible deniers; or the Bible correctors; or the Bible "harmonizers"; that have shown up or who may still be members on this Forum today.

I would rather have brother Tony "at my back" than the Humanistic, intellectual, elite, feminized, wishy washy, Humanisnistic "Christians" that abound in our country today. From the moment he joined the Forum, brother Tony has been open and above board about his belief (unlike many who come here), but he also has been circumspect about not "pushing" his personal belief on this Forum.

I personally don't want to see a "debate" over water baptism; we all know what he believes - what will such a debate accomplish? Who will be "edified"? Is the purpose going to be to "isolate" a fellow brother in Christ and possibly drive him away? I want no part in this.

I have disagreed with you on several issues - mainly because I hold dispensational convictions and you don't. But I have never "ragged on" you because we differ on the topic of dispensationalism; rather I have tried to stick to whatever issue we differ on and if at the end of an "exchange" between us, I see that no edification can be gained - I leave it be.

Why is that so? Because I appreciate your testimony; and your attitude; and conduct; and I have learned from your example. Even though we differ on some matters that are important to me (and to you), I consider you a fellow brother in Christ - just as I consider brother Tony a fellow brother in Christ (with whom I differ on a few issues also). I could fellowship with both of you, despite our differences.

I will not take part in a Scriptural "witch hunt" or a Bible "lynching". Brother Tony does not believe that water baptism is for the church; most of us on the Forum believe that it is - but in the broad scope of things that matter in the Bible are we going to castigate, or chastise, or censure him for his belief? I for one - will not participate in such a venture. I refuse to "gang-up" on a fellow brother in Christ over this issue.

If brother Tony came on this Forum and had been obnoxious or antagonistic over the issue, that would be another matter, but he has been careful not to push it, while still letting it be known where he stands. I respect his honesty, even if I disagree with him. And if we were sitting around the kitchen table hashing water baptism out with him, I would "put my oar" in once in a while in support of my belief. But I do not think that the Forum is the place for a knock-down, drag-out battle over water baptism since I know ahead of time that there will be absolutely no profit in the debate at all, and the only thing that we may accomplish is "hard feelings' (or worse) over an issue that has very little bearing on the spiritual state of individual Christians.

There are Scriptural issues that are worth fighting over (and you know that I don't "shy away" from them), but on the other hand there are issues where there is no "profit", i.e. no "edification" to be had. I would suggest we stop biting and devouring one another, and get on with the business at hand: "the ministry of reconciliation". Let sleeping dogs lie brethren, this thing could come back and bite us - big time. Worse yet, if we succeed in driving brother Tony away, we would have lost a fountain of Biblical knowledge , and a "viewpoint" that is both refreshing and unique.

Someday the Lord Jesus Christ is going to straighten us all out on the places where we have been wrong on doctrine; until then: lets extend the "right hands of fellowship" to a fellow brother in Christ. We are in a "WAR", and brother Tony would be a good soldier to have alongside of us as the battle intensifies; and I guarantee you - it will intensify! :(

We've got enough to contend with (the enemy without & traitors within), without shooting a "combat veteran" because he doesen't want to get wet! :rolleyes:

:amen: and :amen:, Brother George...I agree.

George, I'm not interested in getting into a fuss with Tony or seeing anyone else do so over this question. I would like to see Tony's explanation of his view so that I can better deal with the question should it arise by some seeker of truth. I know that Tony is settled in his belief as I am in mine, so fussing won't help. But there are those who are unsure. Should we not provide for them some evidence of what is right and wrong? It is not a minor "take-it-or-leave-it" decision.

I would like to know if Tony considers believer's baptism as practiced in the average Baptist church to be a sin.

I agree with you, Brother George.
Brother Tony, although I also disagree with you, :rain:well, "grace and peace" to you!:)

In my church I only Baptize the ones who request it. I hold a Bible study to be sure they are not using baptism for anything other than their personal Identifiation with Christ. I explain it is not for salvation, forgiveness of sns, entrance to the body of Christ, regeneration but simply personal ID withour Lord and His finished work.

if a person gets baptized or does not get baptised I will not condemn them. I want it to be something of their free will. when I come across the scriptures concerning it I teach it in light of the context and application.

Baptism
 

Yes.

Because the Bible tells me so. Matthew 28:19 and Acts 8:35-39.

{ IIRC, the Quakers (Society of Friends) and maybe (?) The Salvation Army are/were the folks that don't hold to water baptism anymore...
odd, because there is not one verse in the New Testament that says to stop baptizing believers.}

Not to be nit picky BUT,

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Matthew 28 was spoken to the (ye) 12 apostles and Jewish disciples.

there is not one verse where Paul has commanded us to Baptize nor not to. By example he did, but he did not make that the priority in his ministry and he literally can count the number of times he has done so.

Paul would be in violation to the commandment of Matthew 28 because he did not teach obedience to Jewish law or the Kingdom Gospel that Jesus taught his disciples to teach. and so would many of us as we do not teach those either.

here is an example of what Jesus commanded the disciples:
Matt 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. a different gospel than Paul's
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Do you also doing these? If not you are in violation to Matt 28:19, 20

Act 8 doesn't command Baptism or tell Christians or anyone to Baptize. It is an example of an apostle being obedient to Christ command of Matt 28. and remember the Ethiopian Eunuch was a Proselytize to Judaism.

Philip was not an apostle. This was Philip the "deacon".

The instructions to the disciples in Matthew 10:7 forward were specific to that one mission trip, not to be used as a standard operating procedure for all mission work.

First, Paul did baptize. Second he understood that not to be his primary mission. Third, Romans 6, written by Paul, explains the message of baptism. (to whom?)

Aloha brother Tim,

Philip did NOT stay a "DEACON".

Acts 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.

Granted, George. I was just pointing out a common misconception that the Philip of Acts 8 is not the Apostle Philip. He lost his deaconing job when the Jerusalem church was "downsized". God retrained him for a new job, which continued evidently with his daughters.

Friends, my exposition on water baptism covers a lot of ground as the practice overlaps several dispensations.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

God has dealt with his creation, his creatures, us, in different ways at different times. If my comments go off into the OT, Christ's ministry to Israel, before and after the resurrection, the ministry of Peter and then the ministry of Paul, the Great Commission, rightly dividing Paul and then Acts chapter 29, I'd ask you all not get into a heated discussion among yourselves.. Brother George pegged me exactly right: I'm your brother in Christ and all of you are mine(and sisters too). I don't want to start a contention among you. Let's discuss it, and comment as Christian gentlemen and ladies and once it's run out, I trust we'll be even closer and stronger.

I speak directly, not curt, dismissing, condescending, or short. When the topic runs out so do my comments. Grace and peace to you all, let me show what I am made of, and let's show the lurkers and those who drop by for a look what we all are made of.

Brother Tim, to you I want to say yes, it is sometimes so tiresome being right all the time. Woe is me, woe is we, Jesus wept:D:rolleyes:

Tony

He he, that was pretty good Brother Parrish. One of my favorite movies too.

Give me and Brother Tim a try:)

Grace and peace to you.

Tony

Well friends, Brother George has "found me out". George, you don;t know what an encouragement you are and all of you have been. When I came into this forum I was in bad shape. I have a family illness that eats me alive that I am worrying about because there is nothing I can do about it to relieve it. Since I've been in this forum I'm a better man and a better Christian. George is right and many of you saw it: I came in and right off said, hi guys, I'm Tony, the church splittin' hyperdispensational dry cleaner. I know Stephanos wondered publically why I made it a point to let you know that. I'm a guest here and Brandon Staggs is the webmaster and no doubt has others to help him. I've been treated with friendship and Christian love here, I hope I've reciprocated it. If my meat offends someone, water baptism discussion or no water baptism discussion let's discuss it, be reconciled and move on.

Brandon is the webmaster and the boss here. I know what Brother George's position on water baptism is. Water baptism is not the point, or discussion thereof. Bible study is, and George, I'm not placing a request on you or a burden maybe you don;t want, but I'm demonstrating my honesty and wish to bear witness to what you said about me by proposing you moderate this discussion, and if I were to get out of line, which I have no intention of doing, then spank me. The rest of you willing to place yourselves under George's authority? I am, as of this nanosecond.

Let everything be done decently and in order.

Grace and peace my friends, I'll be back, got to render unto Caesar.

Grace and peace to all.

Tony

Re: " Is water baptism for today?"
 

Aloha brother Tony,

I thank God for your testimony in this Post and your conduct on this Forum, and if Brandon and others on the Forum are willing to hear you out, that's fine with me - as long as we can keep it "civil" and between "friends".

I had a friend who was an atheist (with a very high I.Q.) and who worked for me (as an electrician - off and on) - who was always on-time; who always gave 100%; who was honest and always did excellent work; and who never charged me enough. I always tried to be up-front with him; and treated him fairly; and always paid him over and above what he charged me.

This man had more integrity than most of the Christians I have dealt with in my life. And, at times, we could (and would) get into some pretty "heated" Bible discussions about creation, the Lord, the Bible, government, etc., - you name it, and we probably talked about it.

The most amazing thing to me is, no matter how "heated" it got between us - we never got "personal"; we never made personal attacks; we never called each other names; and when it was over we continued as if there was nothing wrong. We "agreed to disagree" - it's too bad Christian brethren can't do the same (and I'm not talking about professing "Christians" who are hereticks, false teachers, compromisers, Bible deniers, or Bible correctors, etc., etc., etc.)! :(

About five years ago this man was dying of cancer, and my wife and I visited with him at his home - twice shortly before he died. He was in awfully bad shape (the cancer was a quick acting variety), and had we known how serious it was sooner - we would have visited with him sooner.

For the two days that we visited with him we held his hand and prayed, and tried to talk with him (he was barely aware of our presence the second and last day), I don't know whether he believed the Gospel and received the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour or not, but this I do know, although he could barely speak, he would squeeze our hands, and he knew that we were there and that we really and truly cared about him personally, and about his eternal welfare.

If we would keep our eyes on the Lord Jesus Christ, and look at things in terms of eternity - and through Christ's eyes, (and as dying men and women - 2Corinthians 6:9), I believe that we would be far less likely to condemn a genuine fellow brother in Christ for holding a conviction different than ours about a matter, which I consider important, but which conveys no special grace or spiritual sanctification, other than physically following the example of the Lord; the disciples; the Apostles; and the Christians in the early church.

If you decide to proceed:

1 Corinthians 14:26 . . . . . . Let all things be done unto edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 16:14 Let all your things be done with charity.

Well said, George. Excellent testimony as well. :amen:

Tony is my brother-in-arms as well as brother-in-Christ. I know that we can communicate on a decent spiritual level, if future discussion is warranted here. Most of the posters here know how to back off when it gets too hot, and the others are reminded to do so by the mature ones when necessary.

Sorry guys I've been busy at work and trying to get caught up,
so just curious---now that we've all held hands and sang Kumbaya, did Bro. Tony ever answer this question above (?) because I thought it was an interesting question... I mean is that what the Grace Brethren hyperdispensational movement teaches these days?

I'm an Independent Baptist so I voted yes. I believe it is one of only two ordinances given to the body of Christ to practise until the Lord returns, the other being the Lord's Supper.

Believer's Baptism is a wonderful figure of the salvation that has already taken place in the believer's life, to me it is an important Christian ceremony which publicly testifies of the new creature in Christ.

While water baptism is not required for salvation, I believe it is an important ingredient for the believer's testimony to the body of Christ, and so I encourage all new professing believers to be baptised in water as soon as possible, as a sign of their willingness to obey the scripture and witness their salvation publicly.

You guys are free to discuss the questions posed. I have no problem with it at all. I just want it noted that Tony has been specifically asked to state (and by extension, advocate and defend) his position here. I will not tolerate anyone accusing him of tying to cause division. Just keep that in mind and have an edifying discussion.

Well said Bro. Matt.... :amen:

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Water baptism as practiced by the average Baptist church is not a sin.
Water baptism as practiced today is a misapplication of a Jewish ordinance, part of the Law of Moses. It is a dead work and is the first step in consecrating a Levite:

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Note Jesus Christ preached this Scripture in Luke 4, to announce this eminent "kingdom of priests":

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.


Le 8:6 And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Please read the Scripture passages above in context. As I have stated elsewhere, I will explode before I quote Scripture out of context.

The passages in Hebrews deal with the whole workings of the Law as a picture, a like figure, a similitude, of Jesus Christ and His work as Redeemer.

I'm sure I'll be asked to elaborate on that and so I'll stop here for now and wait for Brother TIm's comments and ask him two questions?

1. Was John the Baptist the first Baptist?
2. Why was Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, baptized in water?

Grace and peace friends.

Tony

The same to you my friend:)

Grace and peace again,

Tony

PB, each Christian under God and in the Spirit has the right, protected also by the Constitution, to believe whatsoever he or she wishes regarding doctrine.

I do not accept Matthew 28 as anything more than similitudes nor do I accept it as Church Age doctrine. The reason being that one of the prime missions of the Great Commisson was teaching the Law: (verse 16 cross-references with brother Chette's reference to Matthew 10:7)

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Jesus said to the young man when he asked about salvation, believe on me and my resurrection, the gospel I have not yet given Peter and Paul, and you will go to heaven?

Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made unto the fathers (Romans 15:8) One of those promises was in Exodus 19 and Isaiah 61. Jesus taught not to follow the corrupt Talmud, the Writings of The "Rabbis" in Babylon,

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

...but to teach the pure word of God in The Law Of Moses, as He showed and instructed:

Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I have not been given a commission to go into all the world and preach the Law, your and my commission is:

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Brother, I have promised to be direct without sarcasm. I am sincere in saying that I am trained in guerrilla war-counter insurgency/sniper/recon, escape and evasion and tracking. I have a law enforcement background in intelligence gathering and covert operations. Anyone who wishes to go with me in parachuting into North Korea, Cuba, or Iran; find the money, the Bibles in the given languages, and the night vision equipment, I'll be the first out the door of the transport. Because we have not nor ever did carry out the Great Commission to go into all the world and preach the Law Of Moses to all the world for the restoration of Israel in the Millenium.

The 144,000 of the book of Revelation will.

Grace and peace to you my friend, I don;t believe we have ever met or spoken.

Tony

George, I agree to everything you say here my friend.

George, I am not slighting Brandon asking you to "moderate this discussion". Brandon is boss, yes, but you didn't really much kinda sorta want to have this discussion because I know you've had it before and all that was generated was a lot of blood and bad feelings. If I am out of line, you paddle me. Would the rest follow George's request in discussing this? Let's have the discussion, a very contentious one it's true, but let's have it under George's requests above. I accept George as a friend and brother in Christ, as you all, and he also as my elder, because he has been in the Lord longer than me.

Grace and peace friends.

Tony

Tbones,

I agree with most of what you shared.

However I don't believe or think that Baptism is an OT law. I would not liken it to the washing of priest in the Aronic priesthood. As these Israelite's being Baptized by John. and John himself would be in violation for that washing was ONLY for the priestly cast. the washing was for cleansing and Baptism today in both the HS and the Physical are not for cleansing.

The Baptism was a new thing even Pharisees would not/could not say where it came from. For if it was from the Law, as you claim, they could of answered Christ's question of where it came from and Jesus would of had to tell them who gave him authority to forgive sin.

I agree with the dispensational view of Baptism of Matt 28

I also agree that Paul never taught it.

Bro Tim, Philip was a disciple and Apostle Matt 10:3 lists him as an apostle and he was present at the time of the Lords ascension. the point is it was a direct act of obedience to Matt 28 because Philip was a disciple and the Eunuch was a proselyte to Judaism.

Then let's do it brother, and not take our eyes off enemy lines for too long.

Grace and peace

Tony