Refuting False Doctrine
 

How do I refute false doctrine from Christians who say that we are "spiritual Israel" and, therefore, must keep the Law, including the Sabbath? This person keeps emailing me and telling me that I'm breaking the Law that we are supposed to be keeping by not observing the Sabbath.

A little background: I used to be a member of the Worldwide Church of God, under Armstrong - but I came to see the incorrectness of what was being taught, the more I read the KJV Bible (rather than their books!), the more God opened up my understanding and I could see their errors.

I tried to search here at the Forum, but it won't allow me to search with a PHRASE, only a WORD. I wanted to search for threads regarding the so-called doctrine that we are "spiritual Israel." I know that is FALSE but I don't know how to prove it. This person keeps sending me emails regarding the LAW and the Sabbath, telling me that if JESUS is in me, then I should be able to PERFECTLY keep the Law, just as He (Jesus) did. I told him that we're not under the Law anymore but under grace, and that he is failing to rightly divide the Scriptures. So, now he is picking and choosing verses from Paul, not understanding the context.

Can anyone help me with refuting that false doctrine?

He uses the following Scriptures to make his case:

Galatians 3:29 - And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and the fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold before the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shall be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I've tried to show him Romans 6:14 - "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace."

He keeps pointing out Scriptures like Romans 2:13 - "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

And Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

And Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God to every one that believeth.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

And Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

And Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

I'm so tired of him wrestling with the Scriptures, in trying to pull me back under the law! I won't go back under the law, because being under grace is true FREEDOM in Christ.

He is more an SDA - but says he doesn't belong to a church.

Can anyone help me with this?

Jassy

Sister, that boy is so blind that he gave you scriptures that completely refute his entire argument.

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The scriptures are pretty clear, we aren't under the burden of keeping the commandments. We're justified and purified by faith and believing in Jesus, and that the commandment to keep the law was never given. The only thing that they found "necessary" was to abstain from idols, blood, and fornication, and they had already agreed that it was by faith, so they weren't even saying those things could affect your salvation.

Another thing, if he's so hell bent on fulfilling the law, then all he has to do is love:

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

You see, that ol' boy tricked you by wresting scriptures out of place:

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law was given for the knowledge of sin so that every mouth would be stopped, and they everyone would be guilty before God. God knew that there was no way that any human being could keep the law. Then comes Jesus, who becomes the righteousness of God manifested, who kept the whole law who will give you that righteousness by grace through faith, believing on the Lord Jesus. You see, even if we could keep the whole law, it wouldn't matter for one blip of a second because we have the one who kept them for us living inside us. Therefore, there will be no boasting of, "I kept the commandments, was buptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holyghost, and did this, this, and this, that....." You see, all that crap doesn't matter. The only reason we should even try to keep them is because we aren't to use our liberty as a cloke of maliciousness, but mortify the deeds of the flesh to exercise godliness.

Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Gal 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

I don't think I could make things any clearer than what the scriptures have. Only someone who has put blinders on could miss it.

There are no scriptures that support that the church has taken the place of Israel. A spiritual Jew or Spiritual Israel is still not a replacement of Israel by the church.

Just ask him if he is a jew? he will use the verse that say spiritual Jew spiritual Israel but tell him you did not ask hem that. then ask him again are you of Jewish blood physically? when he says no then you tell him that he are not Israel and that there is no scriptures that make him a Israeli or a Jew.

He is a Gentile salved by grace. spiritual standing before God does not make him or us a replacement of Israel.

"For Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness
to every one that believeth." Rom. 10:4

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law WAS our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are NO LONGER under a schoolmaster." Gal 3:23-25

If you are tired of false doctrine, then don't feel like you have to discuss it. You are correct, you have been set free and there is no reason to prove anything. Listen, I once knew a young Bible student who was always discussing things with the Mormons she worked with. I warned her about it because she was very smart and friendly but not well grounded in the Word, but she kept debating and talking with them. Eventually she started hanging around them socially. Guess what? Eventually she left our church and became a Mormon. :(

This is why the Bible tells us not to even let false teachers in our home. (2 John 1:10)

Brothers Kevin, Chette and Parrish -

Thank you all very kindly for your feedback. I appreciate all of the Scriptures and the information. Very, very helpful. It was good to know, also, that I would not be remiss in turning my back on this friend - if they continually try to sow dischord.

Jassy

Sabbath means rest....Christ is our Sabbath, He is our Rest. We keep Him everyday.

Israel is the family of God....His chosen. By belief in Him we are adopted into the family...we become Israel.

Israel is never called the family of God in the Bible and the Bible never says we are adopted into a family.

We do not become Israel.

That's a very unbiblical statement in light of the entire old testament.

He's SDA Jassy, they are just as deceptive as Mormons are with their "friendshipping" method of "evangelizing'.

In nearly 30 years dealing with cults I've found in most cases the individual is a lost sinner like any biker you want to encounter on the street. If they are saved it's a deal where the heart has believed unto salvation in spite of the mind, which is clogged with cultic doctrines. Jassy, I believe you are Scripturally grounded sister, and able to deal with this person. You have to be. In Acts for example, the sheet God let down in Peter's vision, the SDA will tell you, well, I think that was just a one time thing. If a Christian is not on their toes, they'll be on their nose with these cultists.

I've found little difference in Armstrong followers and SDAs, Armstrong was an ex-SDA. This constant back and forth between you and this person tells me that he probably by this time has given up on converting you, is examining your Scriptural arguments, and is using you as a whetrock to hone his own skills at countering your approach. See, the dispensational approach is something these cultists find difficult in countering. I want to cite the typical "debate" between a Church Of Christ and an IFB and then my own two debates I had with two COC "evangelist/elders" and the result.

In any typical debate between an IFB and COC, the debate will center around Acts 2:38 and water baptism as being necessary for the remission of sins. The COC will say it was efficacious then, it's efficacious now. The IFB will counter with arguing the meaning of the Greek word "for"("eis") meaning not necessarily "for" but "because of" the remission of sins. COC position is that it was operative for remission then, it's operative today.. The IFB position is it was not operative for remission then, it's not operative now. The objective judge of the debate will usually declare it a draw, both sides will declare themselves the winner.

Seeing the issue rightly divided though, we see the Scriptural truth and sound doctrine on the matter: The KJV translators knew exactly what they were doing, "for" means FOR the remission of sins. Water baptism was operative for remission of sins then, it's not operative for anything now.

The most hardened and seasoned COC debater is not prepared for this approach, I found that out in debating two of them. On both nights, at the beginning, I spent less than 90 seconds on Acts 2:38 and concentrated on Jesus Christ's baptism: work of righteousness or unrighteousness, yes or no? Basing that on Titus 3:5, the debate was basically over and I spent two nights each time preaching the cross rather than the water tank and the three Biblical dispensations. The objective moderators of both debates declared me the winner of both, 18 minutes into the first one and 22 into the second one. Here's the kicker:

A memo went out from the local district council of Churches Of Christ stating no more debate offers were to be made to me. I saw the original memo.

Here's my point and advice to you:

You need to map out a program of dispensational teaching that touches not only on the Law, on dispensational teaching overall. The difference between a Jew and Gentile, Israel and the Church, plus in his case the fact that nothing was "restored" in the 1800s, as they claim Ellen White did the SDA teaching.
Ellen White is impeached at the start by the fact that, ladies, I didn;t make this rule, God did, no woman is Scripturally qualified to found a "denomination" or teach a "restoration" of any "lost doctrine". Not Aimee Semple McPherson, not Joyce Meyer, not Gloria Copeland, Jan Crouch, Tammy Faye Bakker. You are, because you are a minister of the reconciliation, an ambassador for Christ, not a church or denomination founder.

He needs to understand the 3 Biblical dispensations: Time past, But now, Ages to come. He needs to know the present Body of Christ is a mystery, never prophesied until reveal to Paul. That's the gospel of Christ, Christ crucified provides our salvation through faith in it apart from the works of the Law. That's Grace, that is what Paul called "my gospel". In teaching the true dispensationalism of Ephesians 2 in 3 dispensations, you are preaching the gospel of the cross for everybody. Not of works lest any man boast.

Jassy you need to not let him have the initiative nor "equal" approach but you must take the initiative away from him and make every one of his thoughts captive for Christ.

If you studied the encyclopedia we wrote for Tandi, you'll see what was said, and can map out your own program in dealing with him, in dealing with anybody. With Tandi we gave her as much Scripture as we could because His words will not return unto Him void, and won't when you deal with this person.

Any further help I can offer just ask sister.

Grace and peace to you.

Tony

Israel is a God given name to Jacob.

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Genesis 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

The Children of Israel became a nation of God.

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
2 Samuel 7:23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?

Israel is still Israel even today. Gentile is still Gentile even of today. Filipino is still Filipino of today. But since I've been "born again", I became member of the Family of God (not an Israelite) by virtue of John 1:12.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Praise the Lord!!!

And....we are a "nation of God."
And...we are if we include ourselves in those of the "first resurrection."

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Quote:

2 Samuel 7:23 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people, even like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name, and to do for you great things and terrible, for thy land, before thy people, which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, from the nations and their gods?

We are His people. We are redeemed to Him. We carry His name....Christian. We are redeemed from Egypt (symbolic of the world and it's temptations) and from all nations and false religion.


Yes, Israel is still Israel. Israel is His family.....His chosen, all of them/us.

Israel means....the prince that prevails with God and...it is The Kingdom.

Romans 9:3-5 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever.

Note the Israelites of Romans 9:4 are called by Paul "my kinsmen according to the flesh".

Philippians 3:4-5 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Epheisans 1:4-5 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

This verse says nothing about being adopted into the "family of Israel". When I got saved I was baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27) and am now "of the household of God (Ephesians 2:19), but my adoption is future.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

As they should be...Paul being of the tribe of Benjamin they were of his flesh. :) But, the adoption is to be adopted to them...not them to gentiles.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye ae no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

And is His household those of Islam, those that worship Buddah, Hindus, or other Gentiles? Of course not....you are now of His family, His household. You have been adopted. Why do you believe it is future? You mention [3:27]but I ask you to read the next few verses.....

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male and female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

They don't become the seed of Gentiles....Gentiles become Abraham's seed and, as adopted children into their family....heirs according to the promise.

That "adoption" isn't as "heirs to the promise" but the adoption of our bodies. The change of [1 Corinthians 15:52] when "we shall all be changed."

Whirlwind,

Since you responded to my post, I would like to know what background you come from, brother or sister. I have gotten OUT of a very rigid false doctrinal church that wrongly taught that WE (the Church) are "spiritual Israel." Once I studied the Bible on my own - i.e. APART from the church's booklets, books and other materials - I came to know the TRUTH from the King James Bible.... and it was in marked contrast to what I had wrongly learned.

It really doesn't matter which CHURCH it is that is teaching wrong doctrine, since they all go about it in much the same way - and they all lead gullible new "babes in Christ" astray. This is to their utter shame.

After I left that church, I had to go through a process of DE-programming, by filling my mind with the TRUTH, thereby pushing out all FALSE doctrine, since it was replaced with the TRUTH. It wasn't an easy transition. However, now I am FREE! I am no longer under that burdensome LAW of the Israelites, because I no longer view myself as "spiritual Israel." Once my mind was open to the truth, God began to spiritually bless my life, with grace and knowledge.

I have successfully brought an atheist and a Hindu to Christ, amongst others. Now I don't say this for any accolades: ALL GLORY AND HONOR BELONGS TO THE LORD!!! That former Hindu (in India) may bring his entire family and the community around him to Christ also. It is immensely humbling. It is not I who lives, but CHRIST in me! Without Him, I am NOTHING and can do NOTHING! I had to realize how my own understanding of the Bible and my own understanding of the revealed doctrine of the apostle Paul was faulty and full of error, having been corrupted by this false church - before the Lord was able to use me in anything. I can clearly state that I was WORTHLESS, as I was. But now (as Paul was fond of saying!) I am BOUGHT WITH A PRICE: the precious blood of Christ. And I will do everything that Christ calls me to do to share that joyous fact.

I sincerely hope that you seek TRUTH. Only then can your mind be opened to it. Otherwise, it is like seeing TRUTH through a filter of tar. One has to be washed with the blood of Christ first and renewed. This is an INDIVIDUAL event. It is not one that happens through a church. It happens in a personal relationship with Christ.

I did not KNOW Christ - I only knew OF Him, from what the church I was involved in taught me.

My sincere wish and prayer is that you will come to KNOW Christ, as I did.

Blessings and Peace to you as you seek the TRUTH,

Jassy

:amen: sister.

Dear Jassy, you have a sweet and kind spirit. :) I am glad you are out of a restrictive church....I haven't belonged to a church of any kind for many, many years.

There is no need for you to pray that I will come to KNOW Christ for I do. But, I thank you for the kind thought.

Brother Tony,

Thank you very kindly for your long, informative reply. I hope it isn't plagiarism to use some of what you have said in responding to the Sabbath-keeper. Very helpful! I would like so much to learn evangelism - because I find myself often in the position where it would be very useful. I often meet misled Christians or people that are of other religions who are curious about what I believe. I did take a course on evangelism quite a while back - and don't remember where it was from. I think that some of what they taught, I would have to disagree with now. Can you recommend anything to hone my skills in everyday meetings with people that I need to "evangelize" with. I believe that God calls ALL to do that - and that He gives us certain opportunities to do so. In the past, I've felt ashamed that I didn't have enough confidence to share my faith with someone. It was probably due to still going through a process of "deprogramming" from the "cultist" church I had formerly been involved in. I didn't feel that I had enough Scriptural knowledge. Now I am gaining such knowledge, yet I need more help and advice in evangelizing.

Any suggestions or advice for me?

Jassy

Brother Luke :amen: I agree with you.

Whirlwind, thank you for the compliment. I assure you, however, I can be very firm (hard-nosed, if necessary) regarding what the Bible says or does NOT say. I will definitely defend the truth.

In another post here, you mentioned that the Sabbath meant REST... does that mean that you keep the Sabbath or that you think that the Body of Christ TODAY is to keep the Sabbath? I am just curious about what you believe. I do NOT believe that we are under any obligation to keep the Sabbath today.

I am also currently not a member of any church. I have found NO KJVO church anywhere near me. I am also Deaf, and would require a sign language interpreter, in order to "hear" a sermon. There are some websites that have sermons from some OLD KJV ministers in written format online. I gratefully utilize that to grow in grace and knowledge - ALWAYS reading the Bible for myself to compare and check on what is said (Acts 17:11). I'm very wary of taking someone's word for something without checking it out for myself.

I hope that you will be as edified here as I have been.

Jassy

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

That’s not hard to understand. Our identity is Jesus Christ! Not Jew. Not Greek. Not bond. Not free. Not male or female. We are one in Christ, sister.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Personally, I vehemently loathe ANY teaching that attempts to weaken, diminish, dissolve, damage, desecrate, or downplay my new life specifically in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I recommend you faithfully keep proclaiming the message of Christ who is now our life and faithfully direct this gentleman, or anyone else for that matter, to the ONE who is preeminent in all things. The ONE in whom we are complete. What then is the promise? I am in Christ and now a CHRISTIAN by faith. Faith is the link we have with Abraham. Not national heritage.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Jesus alone, sister Jassy. The truth will set him free.

:amen: brother Forrest!
Very helpful!

Jassy

Jassy I don't hold a copyright on anything Sister, I didn't write it for you not to use in any way you wish so feel free. I write what I do here for anyone who gets edification from it:)

Sister, I understand your issue about witnessing, and it's human, and based on what you came from, understandable. If you have a Bible program with word search or a concordance for a regular Bible, look up the words "bold" and "boldly" in Acts and Paul's letters. Being bold in witnessing for Christ is not like herding cattle, a cop breaking down a door, it's done out of charity for the person you witness to. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, they aren't, but it's done out of humility, He died for them the same as us. We don't become bulletproof when we are saved, we aren't better than anyone. That's why in the face of abuse to be longsuffering with them, same as you have to be sometimes in internet Bible forums.

Jassy, another unpleasant truth is this: The greatest opposition you will receive is not from sinners, it'll be from Christians. If you don't have the Denominational Background Check, a "profession of faith and obedience" that other Christians can see, well, you are a "false teacher slipped in unawares." This is why I say you can't pull any punches when witnessing as to life after Salvation. See, the Cadillac Crowd run from this verse:

2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

Do you know anything easy about being a soldier? I was 12, a child more or less, and the day after I was saved my grandmother died the next day 10 minutes before I got home from school, I walked up to the house and there was a hearse in the driveway. I have a cousin I never met, she was 21, she got saved through Pat Robertson's TV show, one of the few times they actually preached the gospel. Two weeks later she didn't win the lottery, her car stalled on the train tracks, the driver was drunk and went right through her car like a knife through whipped cream and killed her. Sister, there was't hardley anything left to bury. Does "Christianity" make your life "better"?

No, it makes it possible.

This is our "commission" for today:

II Cor. 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I'll look up those threads we wrote to Jassy, you do with what I wrote anything you want to. That's why I wrote them, to be used and studied and a help.

Grace and peace Sister

Tony

Sorry sir, Exodus 19:6 is about "... These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." not unless thou art a Jew but we are not.

Sorry sir, Rev. 20:6 pertains to the future where the Devil, the old serpent and Satan will be bound for a thousand (1000) years and Christ shall establish his Millinenial Kingdom.

Sorry sir, while we may be called the children of God, we are not a children of Jacob(Israel), while we are redeemed because Christ redeemed us through his blood, God went in 2 Samuel 7:23 to redeemed and to make him a name, to the nation of Israel.

God is not through with the nation of Israel.

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The details of Israel's future restoration and salvation are given in Zech.12:10-13:1.

Yes, Israel is still Israel.Filipino are still Filipino:eyebrows:

There are many "children of Israel" and a few of them are Jews. All are Israelites but not all are Jews.

Yes it does. I'm sorry I gave you the impression I thought otherwise.


Through adoption we are also of the nation of Israel. By that I don't mean the "nation of Israel" that was founded in 1948. I refer to the family of Israel....God's nation.


It is the "house of Judah," or Jews (tribes of Judah and Benjamin) that are in present day Israel. However, the "house of Israel," who are not Jews were scattered around the world. They never returned. It was to those lost sheep that Christ was sent to. Who carries His name today?

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

After Israel (Northern Kingdom) and Judah (Southern Kingdom) split.

2 Chronicles 11
1. And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he gathered of the house of Judah and Benjamin an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against Israel, that he might bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam.

2. But the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

3. Speak unto Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin, saying,

4. Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren: return every man to his house: for this thing is done of me. And they obeyed the words of the LORD, and returned from going against Jeroboam.

5. And Rehoboam dwelt in Jerusalem, and built cities for defence in Judah.

6. He built even Bethlehem, and Etam, and Tekoa,

7. And Bethzur, and Shoco, and Adullam,

8. And Gath, and Mareshah, and Ziph,

9. And Adoraim, and Lachish, and Azekah,

10. And Zorah, and Aijalon, and Hebron, which are in Judah and in Benjamin fenced cities.

11. And he fortified the strong holds, and put captains in them, and store of victual, and of oil and wine.

12. And in every several city he put shields and spears, and made them exceeding strong, having Judah and Benjamin on his side.

13. And the priests and the Levites that were in all Israel resorted to him out of all their coasts.

14. For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:

15. And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.

16. And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.

After Israel was taken into captivity

2 Chronicles 30
1. And Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh, that they should come to the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, to keep the passover unto the LORD God of Israel.

2. For the king had taken counsel, and his princes, and all the congregation in Jerusalem, to keep the passover in the second month.

3. For they could not keep it at that time, because the priests had not sanctified themselves sufficiently, neither had the people gathered themselves together to Jerusalem.

4. And the thing pleased the king and all the congregation.

5. So they established a decree to make proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beersheba even to Dan, that they should come to keep the passover unto the LORD God of Israel at Jerusalem: for they had not done it of a long time in such sort as it was written.

6. So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria.

7. And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the LORD God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see.

8. Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the LORD, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the LORD your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you.

9. For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.

10. So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them.

11. Nevertheless divers of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves, and came to Jerusalem.

12. Also in Judah the hand of God was to give them one heart to do the commandment of the king and of the princes, by the word of the LORD.

13. And there assembled at Jerusalem much people to keep the feast of unleavened bread in the second month, a very great congregation.

14. And they arose and took away the altars that were in Jerusalem, and all the altars for incense took they away, and cast them into the brook Kidron.

15. Then they killed the passover on the fourteenth day of the second month: and the priests and the Levites were ashamed, and sanctified themselves, and brought in the burnt offerings into the house of the LORD.

16. And they stood in their place after their manner, according to the law of Moses the man of God: the priests sprinkled the blood, which they received of the hand of the Levites.

17. For there were many in the congregation that were not sanctified: therefore the Levites had the charge of the killing of the passovers for every one that was not clean, to sanctify them unto the LORD.

18. For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim, and Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it was written. But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good LORD pardon every one

19. That prepareth his heart to seek God, the LORD God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary.

20. And the LORD hearkened to Hezekiah, and healed the people.

21. And the children of Israel that were present at Jerusalem kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with great gladness: and the Levites and the priests praised the LORD day by day, singing with loud instruments unto the LORD.

22. And Hezekiah spake comfortably unto all the Levites that taught the good knowledge of the LORD: and they did eat throughout the feast seven days, offering peace offerings, and making confession to the LORD God of their fathers.

23. And the whole assembly took counsel to keep other seven days: and they kept other seven days with gladness.

24. For Hezekiah king of Judah did give to the congregation a thousand bullocks and seven thousand sheep; and the princes gave to the congregation a thousand bullocks and ten thousand sheep: and a great number of priests sanctified themselves.

25. And all the congregation of Judah, with the priests and the Levites, and all the congregation that came out of Israel, and the strangers that came out of the land of Israel, and that dwelt in Judah, rejoiced.


2 Chronicles 31
1. Now when all this was finished, all Israel that were present went out to the cities of Judah, and brake the images in pieces, and cut down the groves, and threw down the high places and the altars out of all Judah and Benjamin, in Ephraim also and Manasseh, until they had utterly destroyed them all. Then all the children of Israel returned, every man to his possession, into their own cities.

2. And Hezekiah appointed the courses of the priests and the Levites after their courses, every man according to his service, the priests and Levites for burnt offerings and for peace offerings, to minister, and to give thanks, and to praise in the gates of the tents of the LORD.

3. He appointed also the king's portion of his substance for the burnt offerings, to wit, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the set feasts, as it is written in the law of the LORD.

4. Moreover he commanded the people that dwelt in Jerusalem to give the portion of the priests and the Levites, that they might be encouraged in the law of the LORD.

5. And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.

6. And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps.



2 Chronicles 34
1. Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem one and thirty years.

2. And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in the ways of David his father, and declined neither to the right hand, nor to the left.

3. For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.

4. And they brake down the altars of Baalim in his presence; and the images, that were on high above them, he cut down; and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images, he brake in pieces, and made dust of them, and strowed it upon the graves of them that had sacrificed unto them.

5. And he burnt the bones of the priests upon their altars, and cleansed Judah and Jerusalem.

6. And so did he in the cities of Manasseh, and Ephraim, and Simeon, even unto Naphtali, with their mattocks round about.

7. And when he had broken down the altars and the groves, and had beaten the graven images into powder, and cut down all the idols throughout all the land of Israel, he returned to Jerusalem.

8. Now in the eighteenth year of his reign, when he had purged the land, and the house, he sent Shaphan the son of Azaliah, and Maaseiah the governor of the city, and Joah the son of Joahaz the recorder, to repair the house of the LORD his God.

9. And when they came to Hilkiah the high priest, they delivered the money that was brought into the house of God, which the Levites that kept the doors had gathered of the hand of Manasseh and Ephraim, and of all the remnant of Israel, and of all Judah and Benjamin; and they returned to Jerusalem.

Apparently James was mixed up about the 10 lost tribes.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Sorry sir, I am not adopted as a child of Israel since I became a believer in Christ, Ive been adopted or received a position for being a son of God.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Sorry sir, it seems it gave you a problem of the statement of Apostle Paul in Romans 9:6, please refer to CKG post #14. May I add, that since this pertains to the flesh many children of Israel have gone to an interracial marriage and that their children produce a mixed blood hence, not all of Israel are Israel. The context of this particular passage do tell us that only those the seed of Isaac be called Israel. So that King Melkizedick of Salem, the priest of God could not be called the son of Israel.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(Not all residing in Israel, are israelites)
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
(Only those of the seed of Isaac be called Israel. Since I am a beliver in Christ, I am adopted to be in line with Abraham by faith. And be of Abraham by faith the scripture which cannot be broken told me, I do not belong to the famiuly of Isarreal.):):):)

Yes, some of the other tribes that wished to worship at the temple did so. They came to "sacrifice" but it didn't say to remain. Nor did it say all of, or many of, the house of Israel "came to Jerusalem." Did some of the other tribes stay and live in Jerusalem. I'm sure they did but not the whole, or majority of, the "house of Israel."



I believe they are those that came to worship there.


Yes...they were scattered abroad. James writes to them and us. Christ was sent to them and He sent His disciples to them and us.

Where at in Alabama are you from?

I saw in your profile that you were from the big AL and got excited. I live south of Huntsville/Huntsvegas

Deep Alabama....Mobile, the Azalea City and you can't believe how hot this past week has been. :eek:

If you're deep then I'm shallow. I'm in Decatur.

Originally Posted by CKG
After Israel (Northern Kingdom) and Judah (Southern Kingdom) split.
2 Chronicles 11

16. And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.

Whirlwind - Yes, some of the other tribes that wished to worship at the temple did so. They came to "sacrifice" but it didn't say to remain. Nor did it say all of, or many of, the house of Israel "came to Jerusalem." Did some of the other tribes stay and live in Jerusalem. I'm sure they did but not the whole, or majority of, the "house of Israel."

CKG - 2 Chronicles 11:16 Comments - It doesn’t matter if every single member of Israel came. It says “out of all the tribes of Israel came”. It didn’t say they remained, but it didn’t say they returned. The point is even after the kingdoms divided (and there was usually contention between the two kingdoms) there were still, out of all the tribes of Israel, those who came to Jerusalem to worship.

Originally Posted by CKG
After Israel was taken into captivity

2 Chronicles 31
1. Now when all this was finished, all Israel that were present went out to the cities of Judah, and brake the images in pieces, and cut down the groves, and threw down the high places and the altars out of all Judah and Benjamin, in Ephraim also and Manasseh, until they had utterly destroyed them all. Then all the children of Israel returned, every man to his possession, into their own cities.


6. And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps.

Whirlwind - I believe they are those that came to worship there.

CKG - 2 Chronicles 31:6 Comments - “And concerning the children of Israel and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah,”

2 Chronicles 30:6 tells us “So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria.”

Even though the northern kingdom had been taken into captivity by Assyria there were those that had escaped. Why would they want to return to the northern kingdom which was under Assyrian rule?

Originally Posted by CKG
2 Chronicles 34:9. And when they came to Hilkiah the high priest, they delivered the money that was brought into the house of God, which the Levites that kept the doors had gathered of the hand of Manasseh and Ephraim, and of all the remnant of Israel, and of all Judah and Benjamin; and they returned to Jerusalem.

CKG - 2 Chronicles 34:9 Comments – After the Assyrian captivity of the northern kingdom, there was a remnant of Israel in Jerusalem.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Whirlwind - Yes...they were scattered abroad. James writes to them and us. Christ was sent to them and He sent His disciples to them and us

That makes absolutely no sense (not uncommon for many of your statements). James writes to the twelve tribes. As far as James is concerned there aren't 10 lost tribes and 2 found; there are 12 tribes which have been scattered.

The writings of James were for all Israel. It is he that tells us they were scattered...not me. From the above I assume you believe the ten tribes never left, are not the lost sheep, were never scattered, or are all living in Jerusalem? :confused:

Ezekiel 37:16-17 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Has that happened yet? :nono:

37:21 And say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

37:24 And David My servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in My judgments, and observe My statutes, and do them.

Brother Tony, indeed we are promised trials and testing, persecution, and what I consider our own little version of Paul's "thorn in the flesh." The life of a Christian is not for the faint-hearted. I could tell some stories... I just become a bit wary and reluctant to share them here on a public forum. I've had all manner of reactions, most of which I've disagreed with, regarding the subject of "healing." There are many Christians, I have found, that believe that if a Christian is not HEALED and in perfect health, that their faith is WEAK and lacking. I would like to be able to exchange lives with one of those "perfect life" Christians - and see how they'd manage, if God didn't seem to be heaping blessings upon them! I thank God for the fiery trials - for I have learned much in them and they are of great value. I wouldn't change anything - God always knows best for me. He uses everything for GOOD in a believer. Perhaps we cannot always see the "big picture" - but we can be certain of the Lord's promises.

I sure wish that you could embark upon an email "debate" with this person. I am now at a loss. For every email that I've sent to him, he has had rebuttals and I can't keep up with it. I keep trying to bring it back to the MAIN POINT that I had about dispensations and not mixing LAW with GRACE - but he keeps pointedly asking me to ANSWER his questions. And they are always going back to the LAW and keeping the LAW and him saying that PAUL taught the keeping of the Law and Jesus kept it while on earth.

I can share his email address with you - because, at this point, I give-up. I am simply not equipped to debate with him. YOU ARE. I fully believe that God has equipped you with the knowledge and experience for this sort of thing. I am still gathering - and not at the point of debating beyond the fact of keeping the dispensations clear and not mixing Law with Grace.

I will email you off the forum and give you his email address. I hope that will be OK. I have told him that I will find someone more knowledgable than I am to help him understand clearly.

Thank you for your help brother. I am simply not prepared to debate with him.

Jassy

You don't have to do anything you don't want to. This is an SDA geek out to either recruit you or use you for a whet rock, turn him over to me and let's see how fast he runs from me. I give him a week. Nothing for a seared conscience like a good Two Edged skinning knife. Contact me anytime Jassy, you are always welcome.

Let's consider this:

II Cor. 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

Do you know what Paul called all this?

2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

I don't demean or marginalize what you yourself have been through, what we all have in just day to day life apart from our Christian service, but the Cadillac Crowd is a group I pity because they are not hardened to being soldiers for Christ, and why we have so many of them "losing their salvation" and "backsliding", and "rededicating" themselves. We used to have the Name it-Claim It crowd come out and get in a circle and growl and moan like a gang of Stonehenge druids and then leave, and not pass one tract out.My wife was hit with a rock on the street ministry, it just made her more zealous. We were spit on, had beer thrown on us, I was hit with a Ziploc bag of urine. I went into one of the bars, cleaned up, I had clean clothes in the trunk of my car, I expected to be hit with something.

Paul calls this light affliction.

Ro 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Arthur Blessit was spit on, rained on , snowed on, blistered by the sun, put up against a firing squadfor preaching the cross, he walked 36,000 miles. Yeah, Arthur was on Paul and Jan Crouch's TV show and is a Baptist, I don't hold either against him. If you are offered a door of opportunity to inspire people, as he did me, I say go for it.

I got a little brother buried somewhere in Kentucky. Mom's first husband beat her and beat the baby to death, she carried a brain dead baby inside her for two months. When it was born it's head was flat like a Frisbee from being beaten, it coughed once and its heart stopped. Mom had like dents and lumps in her back from where she was beaten. I go to bed every night I can still feel those lumps in her back.

Paul calls this light affliction.

We should not do like many metally ill people do and have a martyr complex and go looking for trouble, it will find us. And we should remember that our apostle has promised us, who was told by Jesus Christ to tell us, it is, no matter what we endure, light affliction. He took our place on Calvary so it would not be eternal affliction.

Grace and peace sister, I look forward to hearing from you.

Tony

Brother Tony,

Thank you for saying that I don't have to do anything I don't want to. I've sometimes felt like it's my "Christian duty" to defend the faith. However, when I fail at doing that... or don't feel I am doing it as well as another more well-equipped Christian would be able to do, then I think it's time for me to close the debate and agree to disagree. This person has ruffled my feathers quite a LOT and I am feeling plagued at this point. I hope that you are able to help him to see clearly. Does a Christian who is wrongly-led come to a "point of no return," where they blindly reject all efforts at showing the truth, preferring to be RIGHT than filled with the truth?

At times, I have had to withdraw myself from certain people, since I felt that it was not at all edifying to have constant conflicts with them. Agreeing to disagree seems much more peaceful. It is especially painful when I USED to have the same beliefs that they did. When the truth appeared to me, and I embraced it, I was scorned, admonished, challenged, and criticized by those former "friends." Again they want to be RIGHT. For them, it seems to be 'Do as I do, or NOTHING!' At that point, I'd honestly rather have nothing... because I still and always have the LORD.

You didn't demean or marginalize in any way what I myself have gone through. Besides that, you and others have no way of knowing, if I don't reveal that information about myself. Maybe in the near future, I will post my "testimony" in the Chitchat section here. I'm not sure where that would belong. I guess that would be the most appropriate category for it.

Arthur Blessit's sacrifices, steadfastness, and pure bravery in Christ are amazing! That brother has done much for modern-day Christianity. I don't judge a person by their denominational status - it's their personal relationship with the Lord that is at issue. It's literally between them and the Lord. Who am I to judge what their standing is in the Lord? Certainly the company we keep is something that others judge us by, unfortunately. But how many of us have befriended an angry, poor, smelly bum, in order to tell them about the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done in our life and can do in theirs? We definitely don't have any right to judge, based upon appearances. "there, but or the grace of God, go I."

The Lord has done so many dramatic things in my life that I could not but SEE His hand in it. And even though the atheist looks at my life and may see someone who needs a crutch to lean on, because of a life that they think cannot be much fun to live... it makes me sad that they assume that, without truly knowing me. So, when someone asks me for a reason for the JOY that is in me - I don't waste a moment in confidently telling them that, without faith in the Lord, I am NOTHING, and I live because He lives IN me. They will say, "How can you be so happy after all that you have been through?" or "What's your secret?" The truth is that they are IMAGINING themselves as me and thinking, 'Oh my! if I were her, I'd be so depressed!' And yet, there I am beaming with JOY. And they need to know it is not short-lived happiness... it is JOY springing from within.

Yes, I sure don't go looking for trouble... but Satan sends his minions to plague me, as he does all true Christians. I am NOT afraid!!! I have the POWER OF GOD!! I may not look like much - all 3'9 and 74 lbs of me - but the Lord has made me into a spiritual dynamo!

Brother Tony, please keep me informed. I would really appreciate knowing what happens in the debate and whether or not he folds. I have him in my prayers. And I have you in my prayers as well.

Jassy

Jassy, that's one powerful testimony. It's something we can all be edified about. I have computer problems, a Christian brother is solving that for me today, I hope to be back over the holiday and will answer your email ASAP.

We'll get our LAwkeeper friend back on course soon.

Grace and peace to you my sister in Christ

Tony