The Non-Evolutionary Gap Theory
 

I hope the following helps some of you understand a Gap view without supporting evolution.

reminder this view does not support the Evolutionary Gap theory or Theistic Evolution and Progressive Creation or day-age theories.

Just so those who don't read the post. this does not support the secular Intelligent Design movement that has been sweeping the Nation either. we hold to Biblical Literalism and agree with much of what the Young earth proponents teach. we are at odds only in a couple of areas leading to our rendition of the Non-Evolution Gap Theory

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The gap theory can't be supported when you step away from the muddy unclear verses that you can make any interpretation from and look the clear verses that show it to be a farce.

Notice in verse 1, it says the heavens and the earth were finished, and ALL the host of them. Verse 2 says he rested from ALL his work which he had made. Verse 3 says he rested from ALL his work he had made. These three verses say that God rested after he created ALL the host of the heavens and the earth and ALL of the work had made. Everything was made in the six previous days unless you include this gap as being part of the creation God rested from.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

In six days the LORD made heaven, and earth, the sea, and ALL that is in them. That means everything that dwells in the heavens, the earth, and the sea were created in the six day creation period.

Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

From the beginning of the creation? I thought angelic beings were only made at the beginning of creation. Sounds like Jesus didn't know about this gap.

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

This verse can sway either way, but the the phrase beginning of the creation shows up again and the last verse points out that God made us male and female and if we look at this verse that beginning was from the beginning until now.

When was the beginning though? Well, there only one verse that declares the beginning. Taken in context of the verses that I gave we can see that this period lasted 6 days, everything that dwells in creation was made in those six days, and that Jesus only recognizes the six days as the beginning as the creation of God. That gap must have been awful small.

Amen brother! PREACH!

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

Gen 2 speaks of the finished 6 day creation we do not disagree with that.
Exodus in speaking of the 6 day creation. we do not disagree with that.
Mark 10 speaks of the 6th day of Creation he made them male and female. we do not disagree with that.

The beginning of 6 day creation was by our view after a great affliction that had taken place as mentioned in Mark 13, so Jesus is correct for the affliction to come will be like nothing ever to have happened since the six days creation. that would indicate the flood of Noah was nothing compared to what is to come or what had preceded the current 6 day creation. There will be stars hitting the earth, planetary shift, increase in solar heat, world wide drought and no wind. Imagine nothing like that has ever taken place since the 6 days of creation ever. But before the six day creation the earth had suffered something devastating and left it covered in waters. So in that sense we agree wit the Lord Jesus not your view of what he is saying.

We agree that there was a six day creation. all that has to do with this present world that is reserve for the fire.

the Lord is not obligated to tell us what happened before. He has only revealed what pertains to the current creation, of which was a result of the 6 day creation and the purposes for this earth and its creatures. And the KJV Bible is clear what that purpose is, the Glory of God.

your argument still does not answer 2 Peter 2:5 nor Job 38:4-7

Please I would prefer, because we already know some of you do not agree with our view, though you have never fully known what our view is. So go argue somewhere else. This is here in part to present a partial view of what we hold when we say "we beleive in a gap". You don't have agree and we respect your view and your right not to agree with ours.

Any helpful comments or rebuttles should be directed to the Authors email address in the above post. He will read all emails but may not respond to all of them.

Remember most of what is taught by young earth advocate is agreed by us. We differ only on the fact that we believe the earth is older than the current 6 day creation, and we believe the sons of God were created before the six day creation.

Again we don't agree with Millions of years old earth Evolutionists, Theistic Evolution, or Progress Creationism, we don't hold any view like those of the Day/Age theory where Day represent longer periods of time. We agree in a six day current creation which we are living in today.

Also we are not in agreement with the Humanistic Intelligent Design Movement which denies a GOD. We do however affirm that God is the Intelligent designer of all the current 6 day Creation has, and before and yet to come.

:amen:, Brother Chette!

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Obviously this is the flood of Gen 7. I think you meant 3:5.

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Cross referenced with 2:5, Peter called the world before the flood of Gen 7 the old world, which would make this the same flood.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This could easily be on the first day. God was about to create the earth but decided He wanted something to see this and glorify Him, so He created these angelic beings.

I know what your view is. I used to believe it until I was shown the obvious that you can't get around which you didn't get. Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:11 and Mark 10:6 point to the obvious that the six days of creation were the beginning, and that there wasn't anything in creation before then. It says that God rested from ALL of his works and the creation of ALL that dwell in them. That means Satan, angels, cherubs, x, y, z, were ALL created in the six days.

If you're going to post something on a forum, don't expect everybody to let you post something and just pat you on the back for it.

yes you are correct 2Peter 3:5 was the verse I was referring too my mistake. well in Gen 1 the earth is already created. the Angels are already created for they were there and sang for joy.

those are the beginning of the current creation and we agree with that. but it is not referring to the earth in eternity before we find God spirit hovering over a waters covered earth.

God began his work by establishing time that never before was in existence. This is an important thing to understand. it was from this time forth that time is recorded. The Bible is the only book recording the times of men, their ages and length of life.

Work has to do with a 24/7 week Even God worked according to a 24/7 time frame (resting on the seventh day). It is at the time of Gen 1:2 God decided to bring in Time before this there was no time periods. It is interesting to note at the time God separates this current creation from his abode (the third Heaven) he brings time in to the picture. Separating the light and the darkness created the time cycle. later the sun, moon and stars are put in place for times, seasons and signs. between these the firmament was put into place and plants were created. these creation were done according to the 24 hour a day cycle.

Actually when we have all been through this before when one of the other views was posted namely the NO GAP view. there were all sorts of arguments. But the problem was no one understood our view and they kept labeling us Evolutionarians, theistic Evolutionists, or Progressive Evolution which we do not hold or agree too. that is the reason for this post to show our view.

We believe when there was no time God created the heaven and the earth. then something happened. we don't know exactly but the earth is found in a chaotic state covered in waters and the Holy ghost hovering over it. Then God (the Father) begins by calling forth light (not creating it, so this could be the God the Son) and he separated the light from the dark and started a time period system for the current creation which took 6 days. that time system needs to have the Sun and moon created to keep perpetuating the 24 hour day.

The creation of time is very important to keep in mind. for God and Angelic beings (Arch Angels, Angels, Cherubim and Seraphim exists without time. Only this current creation needs time. and it will all end just as it does in Rev 21 with a new Earth created in only moments as we can tell for time will be no more. the heaven and earth in Verse one were created before there was time> Verse tow we have the Spirit of God no time yet verse Gen 1:3 is the introduction of time and it ended as an evening and a morning were teh first day. what was created teh first day was TIME our twenty four hour day. which until this time never existed.

This is one factor the NO GAP guys never cover the creation of time. It seem they assume that time always existed. But it is clear when time was created on day one of this current creation and it could not be carried out for us over the 6000 years without the creation of the Sun, Moon and Stars.

Kevin, Thanks for the input I copied it an emailed to arched.

How were the heaven and the earth created in the beginning before there was time though. There can't be a beginning without time. I'm not saying that time has always existed. I am saying though that it doesn't say before time existed the heaven and the earth and the host of them existed with God.

It is clear that the deep is a body of water that separates the second and third heaven, and the face of it is frozen.

Job 38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

I think that this sea of glass is the frozen face of the deep. So, it would make sense that the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep if the throne of God is there. It doesn't say how the deep was made, but it exists after God created the heaven and the earth, so it was probably created then.

Plus, there is no evidence of a universal flood if 2 Peter 3:5 is a reference to the flood of Noah, which I think that Peter calling the earth before the flood of Noah the old world pretty much destroys it.

I'm still seeing a major lack of support for the gap theory in any of its forms.

God uses the word Beginning to communicate to us a starting point but God has no starting point and his measurement of time is not the same as ours. that is why Peter said a day is as a 1000 years and 1000 years as a day. I am not saying their was not way of time quantum. But from Gen 2 the earth was created before our current time measurement was established that is clear by Gen1:1 and Gen 1:3-5.

We are still developing this very imports point in our view of the Gap. All Peter is trying to convey is that God time quantum is different than ours. that verse of Peter's describing time different is what cause the Day Age theorists to stumble. Because they want to impose on God our current time quantum and it can't be done because our time quantum has a starting point and it is not at the beginning but 6000 years ago. it has an ending too found recorded in Rev 20-22

the face of the deep is the firmament as a frozen sea the solid liquid form the container for which all the rest of 6 day creation is encased. we know outer space also known as DEEP space is not frozen but is a vacuum. but if we were able to reach the fullness we would run into a solid wall of Ice keeping us from entering God's Abode or the third heaven.

Darkness upon it the face of the deep is a fact that shows something that never existed before. You will notice God calls for light he does not create light and when that light enters in then there is a separation one from the other and from that point a time quantum of 12 hour evening and 12 hour days is established. then later he creates lights Sun, moon and stars with a dual purpose to carry out the continuum of the Time quantum and for lighting the earth.

Once God removes himself from the creation process after the seventh day and he had no lights to light the earth would fall into total darkness, all of creation would have died because science proves that the Sun light is need to propagate plant life, we need it for to develop vitamins A and D especially.

look at the words again, the world that then was and the But the heavens and the earth, which are now. Were the heavens eve flooded by the flood of Noah? the previous verse speaks only of the world then was not the heavens. the next verses in Peter speak of a heaven and an earth. all that was created in the 6 days current creation will be destroyed just as the world that "then was" was destroyed.

if you are a fan of Hovin or Morris I have read a lot of their material and studied their DVD's. Remember this they spend most of their time one debunking Evolution, speaking about the garden of Eden, and the atmosphere before the Flood of Noah and how animals live long. And we don't disagree with them on that area.

They spend very little time speaking about the Gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. they simply say it never existed and that 1:2 is the beginning. For us Gen 1:2 is the Beginning of the six days creation of our current Earth state. there are very few verse and you will have to get God mind on what the Purpose of the Earth was, where was Lucifer's throne (it was below the stars of God, not the stars created in Gen 1:14-19, the north of the north is a reference point for us today just like beginning in 1:1, a point that we can find. it is a place of entrance into the firmament according to Ruckman.

Their teaching on the verses in Job, Peter, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isiah, Psalms and others that support a Gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 is very very shallow and often Kent Hovin will change the meaning of the word to fit his Young Earth view. but when we do the same we meet it with ridicule and scorn because of the prejudice against a gap theory because of the Theistic Evolutionist.

What these men teach on is basically between Gen 1:3 through Gen 7, and today's current world is only 4000 plus ears in existence. it is mainly just young earth theology. We believe that the current creation as we live in it is only 6000 years oldand that it began with a 6 day creation period.

Chette wrote:
What are you talking about? There is no creation "process".

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Your group is twisting the very simple and staightforward account that God gives us in His Word. Gen 1:31 tells us God saw EVERY thing he had made. This would include Satan and the angels. And it was VERY GOOD. God made this observation on the SIXTH day. So obviously, Satan had not fallen at this point.

Instead of listening to these teachers, why don't you listen to God's words? Nothing complicated here.

Gen 2:1 tells us the heavens and earth were FINISHED and all the host of them. There is no on-going process. And vs. 2 tells us God ENDED his work, and then re-emphasizes it by telling us on the seventh day he rested from ALL his work.

This sounds like Theistic Evolution to me. These are folks who try to reconcile the creation account with the false teaching of evolution. Evolution believes that creation is on-going and is still occuring. God clearly and simply states that all his work was finished and ended. God did not step out of the creation "process", creation was finished.

Now, that being said, there is a future creation coming.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So God will create again in the future. But this is not a continuation of an on-going process, it is altogether new.

6 days of creation. it is a process of time in which God created the current creation we enjoy. this is not a continuation of the old. It is a new creation epoch all together and the first thing created is not light but time.

Satan and Angels were created before the earth for they sang for Joy when God created it. Job 38:4-8 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? This is not about the Six day process of current creation or the flood of Noah. it is in reference to a period before time Existed in Gen1:2. they are not part of the six day creation. And God can create anyway he wants. The Angelic beings (arch angles, angels, cherubim, and seraphim's) were part of a creation without time, that is eternity God calls the beginning. but that beginning is not Gen 1:2 that is the beginning of the 6 day creation that must first have time created to even be 6 days. And Besides when did the sea need doors to shut it up in the six days creation? they didn't for they were already shut when you come to Gen1:2 that is why the earth was cover in waters. the earth was already fastened in heaven were it was to be. that didn't takes palce in the 6 days and it is not mentioned there at all either.

Gen 2:1 all the host of them is in reference to the Sun, Moon and Stars not to Angelic beings. It is God rehearsing what took place between the creation of time and the sixth day. Not what took place in Eternity before time.

Another interesting point is when Lucifer exalted his throne? That was a major event and if it took place during creation surely it would have been serious enough for God to take time out from his creation process of 6 days to deal with it. And because it was done during the current time quantum it would have merited to be mentioned as to time and length in the scriptures. unless you think the reference in Isaiah is only speaking about the King of Tyre.

We do not believe in Evolution in any way. We believe the fossil record records a flood of life forms that lived right along side man up unto the flood. We do not believe that creation is on going. God will create a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH so Isa 66:22 has to be reconciled to Rev 20 and 21 it is not the old Heavens and earth but a new Heavens and Earth. We don't disagree there so please don't try an make is sound as if we do. Remember before the Gen 1:2 there is only a Heaven, after time quantum is established in Gen 1:2 only later does God create a plurality of heavens with in the firmament separating it from The heaven of God or God's Abode above the firmament.

You are currently living in the result of the six day creation or what we termed the current creation. But if God makes all things new, and we have the promises of a new heavens and earth. we agree again this is a new creation just like the 6 days creation was a new creation. It is you guys who make the points that support continuing creation known as Progressive creationism from Gen1:1 to Gen 1:2. We don't agree with that.

It is good you can see God will create anew. He did it once before and he will do it again.

It is clear that a change in our atmosphere took place at the time of the flood. Before the flood there was no such thing as rainfall. This does not mean there was not water in our atmosphere, but it was contained.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

There is no rain recorded until the time of Noah.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

So, in Gen 2 the Bible clearly states that God had not caused it to rain upon the earth. However, there must have been a substantial amount of water stored in our atmosphere. And in Gen 7 God opened the windows of heaven. To me, the word windows suggests some type of containment. Not only do the windows on our house keep things out such as the heat or cold, but they also keep things in. We often open the windows to let stale air out of the house. And windows is the perfect word, because windows are transparent.

Since that time we have had rainfall. So there was a change in our atmosphere or heaven.

Now this is just a theory of mine, but I believe the heaven (outer space) changed as well. I believe that when the fountains of the deep broke up that there were gigantic geysers of water that shot not only water, but rock into space. This would account for many features such as comets, the asteroids, and even the craters on the moon. One of the best arguments for a young earth is comets. Comets cannot be more than 10,000 years old because they would have been depleted long ago. As a comet passes the sun it loses material, this is the long tail which is easily seen. Astronomers know comets contain water, but cannot agree where this water came from. I believe the water came from earth and was ejected in Noah's flood.

do some research go here and read some of our view http://www.kjvbible.org

As far as the comet thing I can go along with that.

you will noticed the window and doors of the Seas whether above or below were already established in the earth and in heaven. they were not created in the 6 day creation for surely God would have mentioned it. he only separates them by a firmament and separates them for land to appear in that case he calls it gathered the waters.

I agree there may have not been rain on earths until Noah's flood, just because the earth is covered in waters in Gen1:2 doesn't mean it got there by rain.

I have studied evolution for many years, I have visited that site some time ago. I disagree with it right from the start. As I have stated, this theory is trying to reconcile the biblical creation account (which is true), with evolution which is false. That is shown right in the introduction:

Why mention Darwin and the Theory of Evolution?? Obviously this author believes the universe to be many billons of years old as evolution teaches, and that evolution is a continual process.

As a Bible believer I reject evolution. I believe the theory is 100% false. I believe God created everything in six days (not 7 as the author states)

Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

So, this author does not know his Bible very well.

The author does not understand 2 Peter 3:5-7 either. Look and read for yourself.

2 Pet 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The author fixates on the phrase in vs. 6 "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished" and says the only time the world was completely covered in water was in Gen 1:2

The problem is that the author overlooks the phrase in vs. 5 "and the earth standing out of the water and in the water".

This is not referring to Gen 1:2 because clearly it mentions the earth standing out of the water, DRY LAND.

And God has already told us when the dry land first appeared in Gen 1:9-10

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.


So, the world mentioned in 2 Peter 3:5-7 has to be AFTER Gen 1:9
Now here we have both the earth standing out of the water and in the water. The earth standing out of the water is the dry land, and the earth standing in the water is the ocean floor.

Then the author again shows his belief in evolution by using their geologic ages.


The flood of Noah easily explains all of these events. The fountains of the deep were broken up. Huge geysers shot water high into the atmosphere, where it would have cooled, frozen and returned to earth as snow. Many animals would have been buried under this snow. There would have been volcanoes, tidal waves, the formation of strata, everything.

This fellow simply does not believe God's Word.

Well I don't agree with Gaines R. Johnson on the Sun moon and Stars being destroyed 12,000 years ago. and some other things but his work in some areas is excellent.

also none of the sites I have visited discuss the creation of Time Gen1:3-5. all including Gaines assume time has always been 24/7 constant. But for us we see time as a creation from which a time quantum (measurement) was established for the 6 days of creation on the first day of current creation.

we cannot argue with the fact that both the Hebrew and the English for "without Form" indicate destruction and desolation the meaning of the words in both languages are the same. and are only used twice in scriptures

we do not believe in Evolution and I will not go into debate over it. Kent Hovin, James Morris Gaines Johnson and others go to great lengths to combat it and I agree on that matter there is not evolution.

Again I agree the flood of Noah explains the fossil record.

As far as the Earth standing in and standing out. the Earth was standing in and out of the waters in Gen1:2 for on day two of Creation God creates a firmament (which later he spreads out the stars of our heaven for times and seasons and light) to separate the waters from which the earth was in and out of. The waters the earth was out of are now currently above the firmament of the stars, and the water the earth was in are our seas and atmosphere.

You would have to make the earth in Gen 1:1 also mean dry land to with that logic.

Not only that after the flood the atmosphere changed but the firmament was still there containing the Stars of heaven just as found in fourth day. Ge 1:17-19 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. If the firmament was the atmospheric Canopy that Hovin and others claim then there would be no firmament today for that canopy was partially where the waters came from for Noah's flood.

Chette

Well time is a very interesting subject. One of evolutions arguments is a Radiometric dating. This is all based on the belief that the speed of light and thus radioactive decay is constant. However, in the last few decades there has been substantial evidence that the speed of light has been slowing, and might have actually been billions of times faster just a few thousand years ago.

This evidence was first introduced by a Christian physicist in Austrailia named Barry Setterfield. He wrote a detailed paper on this back in the 80's. Of course, secular science ridiculed his study at first. But since then, numerous other physicists have shown that there is indeed strong evidence that the speed of light is slowing. This is a big controversy in science as it would overthrow Einstein's Theory of Relativity and the Big Bang theory. But more and more scientists are accepting this new view.

Now, this stuff is a little over my head, but basically it says that radioactive dating is on a different time scale than earth which is based on rotations around the sun and the revolution of the earth itself.

So, although the world is only about 6,000 years old in earth time, it can be billions of years old in radioactive time. This would explain how starlight from stars many millions of light years distance could be seen on earth although the earth is only about 6,000 years old. If light was billions of times faster, it could have reached earth almost instantaneously, even though these stars are very distant.

Here is Barry Setterfields site, there is lots of good information here.

http://www.setterfield.org/

Some of this is very complex and difficult to read and understand. Try some of the Setterfield Simplified articles first.

As far as the earth being "without form", this doesn't necessarily indicate destruction to me. It was just a ball covered completely in water, it had no features. When God caused the dry land to appear, then the world took on form or design.

Barry Setterfield believes in a Plasma model of creation, there might be something to this. He actually discusses what God might have meant by "void and without form" in Genesis at the end of the article.

http://www.setterfield.org/plasmamodelintroduction.html

Now, I don't agree with everything Barry Setterfield says. For one thing he often quotes other versions of the Bible (as well as the KJV).

Thanks for that info.

Most of the theory of Einstein and and the radiocarbon dating again are things brought to light in the current time quantum. and if Light is slowing it would make sense since their is a limit as to how far darkness is contained.

The word say God Jer 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. and that God Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens Ruckman brought up a good point to which he said if God flung out the stars he created from the point where He made them (the earth) they would appear to be moving away or that the heaven was expanding from the earth (which it does) and if they traveled as fast as God could fling them out into the firmament. Because of the laws of Physics they would eventually begin to slow down.

I think as the new earth will be without seas in Rev 22 so it was in it's original form. But it is clear there will be a pure river waters of life flowing from the Throne of the Lamb and God. that is after the current time quantum is removed though also.
Flowing water can be used to calculate time however there are many factors that would influence that type of time measurement.

Peter point when he mentions a day as a 1000 years and 1000 years as a day. He is not giving us dynamic equivalences but rather letting us have general understanding that God's time quantum is not equal to our current time Quantum which was established on day one and continued to be carried out by the Sun. Moon and Stars created on day four.

So a the question is if that being true, how long did the heaven and Earth of Gen1:1 exist before the established 24/7 time quantum created from verse 3-5 on day one? Until we can know what God's Eternal time measurement is that will remain a mystery. And I don't think we will wont know it until we are glorified in Christ. Our current understanding of time is based on our 24/7 time quantum so when we think of eternity we have a tendency to see in those values.

Back on the OP, I have a question for the "non-gappers":

Why not? I understand that you don't recognize the Biblical support for the Gap (it's plain as the nose on my face to me), but when there is a way to believe both a Gap and hold a Young-Earth Creation viewpoint, and if it were to not contradict Scripture whatsoever, why would you refuse to acknowledge at least the possibility?

I was a staunch Hovindite (still mostly am!) back in '02-'03 or so, but a man from Bro. Sturgeon's church in Montana showed me some Scriptures that didn't mesh with the rest of the view I held. Basically, my quandary is why people simply refuse to see what the Bible so clearly says when viewed Dispensationally, simply because they think the Gap was invented to fit evolution into the Bible.

Well, I can't speak for others, but I believe the earth is very young, about 6000 years old, and I do not believe in the Gap theory.

That said, one of the most difficult problems for young-earth creationists to explain is how starlight from stars and galaxies many millions of light years from earth could be seen at present. I thought on this for a long time. Now certainly God could have made the light to be here instantly, this is the appearance of age theory. And there is some substance to this, when God made Adam and Eve they probably looked like full grown adults, probably at least in their mid-twenties on the day they were created. So God could have made the light just be here.

What bothered me about this is that it makes God seem misleading. The great distance of the stars and galaxies gives the strong impression that the earth is indeed many billions of years old.

But I always believe true science will agree with the Bible. And now that much evidence is coming in that the speed of light was many millions or billions of times faster just several thousand years ago (in earth orbital time), the problem is solved. Light would have arrived here almost instantly, even from many billions of light years distance.

Here is a brief but good article on the subject.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=39733

Actually, if God flung them out into the deep space 6000 years ago you have been seeing light from them every night since as they were created and sent out. so the light you are seeing actually was closer than their actual position today.

the light you see tonight was traveling just shortly after they were created. but the current position if future and you haven't seen that light yet

I found the papers on the Zero Point Energy very interesting. If I understood it correctly (i am not done reading it yet) if you have an absolute vacuum with no light or any type of radio wave lengths. you would still have energy. that is what he called zero point energy. Something out of nothing is possible in that. but again all our study is based in our Time quantum because that is the system we are in. our whole universe is inside this firmament and is limited to the 24/7 Time quantum and that might be why the speed of light is slowing because our circular motion around the sun and our spin is also fluctuating and the stars can only go so far before coming back to earth again.

Something interesting that Kent Hovind brought up; I'm not sure if this is accurate still, but this is what he said:

Before the atomic clock, the speed of light was observed to slow down at a steady rate, and thus time itself was slowing. With the invention of the atomic clock, time is now based on the vibration of a Cesium 133 atom, and thus as the atom's vibration slows along with the speed of light, there is no way to measure it, since we're gauging time by time.

Sorry if that's too convoluted...I was trying to make it coherent. :cool:

No Ive heard that before and If I am right he does mention it in his DVD's. but he uses this to dismiss its accuracy as a measure of Age and time.

considering what the Scriptures speak of in that God put the stars out into the firmament. so from the earth where he was when He created them he flung them out, they traveled out into the deep space. The Bible also says they will during the great trib fall back to the earth as a fig tree drops her ripened fruit.

If that be true then not only will the speed of light based on the distance of stars appear to slow because the stars themselves are slowing in their trajectory away from the earth, They will do a full reverse in trajectory now in order for those same stars to make it here on time (24/7 time quantum) for the Trib they will already have to be returning Which makes them closer than their light makes them appear. for they are still looking at light from 6000 years ago or 3000. science still hasn't really proven with mathematics that it indeed takes 10,000 years for the light to reach us. it like evolution is a theory

We obviously don't know exactly how large the stars are, nor are we certain how far they are away from us (see Kent Hovind's video on the Age of the Earth), so we cannot say for sure, but if the stars are even 1/100 of the size that we think them to be, there is absolutely no physical way that all the stars could actually fall to the earth and this mud ball survive the impacts.

Basically, I think the reference to the stars falling to earth are actually angels, since stars are almost invariably pictures of angels in the Bible. At least it's something to think about.

Could be a meteor shower.

or a STAR Storm either way stars will hit the earth God does not differentiate between stars, meteors, planets, galaxies, Plasma bursts, quantum pulses, clusters, Nebula's. he does however mention a few star groups the Pleiades, Orion and Arcturus.

Science says that our earth sits in an upside down position compared to the other planets. and I found a verse that said he turned the earth up side down. Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. ssome say this is in reference to the Catastrophe that took place before Gen1:2 others say it was a solar shift that took placeat the time of dividing of the earth. Ge 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. But the earth was never made empty by the Lord at the flood or after. void means empty just as it was in Gen 1:2

Well said. Geologic deep-time does not equal evolution. Geologic time equals geologic time. I'm distressed that Chette is saying that the fossil record was created by Noah's flood. Noah's flood (which was real) did not leave a single fossil. The fossil record explodes roughly 600 millions years in deep-time. That means things started dying on this Earth at that time, which means that Lucifer fell sometime before the fossils started accumulating.

Evolutionary theory is man's way of explaining what he observes from the past and what exists now WITHOUT the input of God's truth. The "Gap Theory" is not a compromise of God's Word to evolutionary theory. On the contrary, it opens up a more perfect understanding of all things Biblical.

When we are dealing with an eternal God, with no beginning or end, and with angels and cherubs who were created by God long before the earth was created (at least 5 billion years), why can't we accept that such great time spans are certainly possible? Such does not contradict my King James Bible in the least way, nor does take anything away from the center of the Bible's whole story, the Lord Jesus Christ...past...present...and future. Why even look at silly things like time dilation and changes in the speed of light when such mental acrobatics are totally unnecessary.

The plain truth is right there, in our Bible, right in our faces.

What a load of gibberish. The Bible is CLEAR that:

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12 KJV)

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:15 KJV)

For the wages of sin is death; (Romans 6:23a KJV)

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; (Romans 5:17 KJV)

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (Romans 5:14 KJV)

Your heresy puts death and sin before Adam. You need to repent of this my friend. There was NO sin or death before Adam. Also, you need to put down the darwinian monkey men text books and get into the Bible. There are no "millions and millions" in God's Book.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

You need to get the beam out of your own eye, brother.

Geo,

I Haven't finished reading all the info you have your site yet. But Understanding our time measurement was only made 6000 years ago. puts us it quandary, as we would have to admit that there is indeed a different time system than ours and that it is based on Eternity.

I am still exploring the all avenues of the Gap theory. I have been known to change my mind on somethings when I have gotten more info.

Stephan try not to offend and be offended so easily. Death and Destruction in our 24/7 Time Quantum did start less than 6000 years ago. remember Lucifer and his angels never died. here is a quote from George for you to remember

You're right. I do need to not get offended so easily. Never the less, I still believe it is heresy to say that there was death before Adam. Perhaps Lucifer cannot die, but to saying that there is geological evidence of death before the fall of Adam is a position that cannot be defended with The Book.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

Brother, I'm sorry for my lack of humility and love in the way I spoke to you in my response. I read so many articles about the apostate nature of the Church in America these days that I often take out my frustration on those that I have no cause to be so frustrated with. Please forgive me. If it's any indication of my genuine need to reconcile with you, I got up at 5am to write this message, after God not allowing me to get more than two verses read in the Scriptures. Suffice it to say, the Lord does this often as of late. I need to learn humility...

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

I don't like the gap because I think it does contradict the clear verses that are given in the Bible about the creation. Moses clearly says that heaven, earth, and sea and all that is in them (Satan, angels, humans, cherubim, seraphim, animals, souls, spirits, devils, plants, and everything else that dwells in creation) were created in six days. People are trying to wrest the muddy unclear verses that need to be viewed in the light of the clear understandable verses to teach something that is mostly blown up by the flesh. I mean there's only like 3 passages that supposedly teach the gap, and somehow people get these big huge long essays about how Satan was created before time, and so was the earth, and Satan had dominion of earth before Adam and lost it and brought tons of angels down with him, then the earth was flooded, creating a bunch of fossils from animals that we would otherwise know never existed back then unless we believe modern pagan superstitious science, and then got it back from Adam. How did 600 million years pass by in eternity? THEY COULDN'T HAVE WITHOUT TIME! Just about everyone that supports the gap in this thread has a million different ideas on what could have happened, and all of their accounts hardly agree on more than one point. You know why? It isn't clearly written in the scriptures, that's why. It isn't obvious that there was a gap (especially not anything that happened during it) unless you start twisting verses in your head and ignore the clearly given scripture that you should be looking for instead of these mysterious verses to make false doctrine out of like ALL HERETICS DO.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Not a problem. I too suffer from the same affliction, at times. I think we all do.
God bless.
Gaines

With all respect, neither Moses nor the book of Genesis details the creation or beginnings of Satan, Angels, Cheribum, Seraphim or devils. Give me chapter and verse or amend your statement. Your statement is an assumption, not a Scriptural fact.

Ease up! This is not an issue to break fellowship over!

Can you elaborate? I wondered how you would differentiate between fossils if there were two floods. Why do you say Noah's flood would not have left a single fossil?


Tandi

Not in excruciating detail, but according to Gen 2:1 and Exo 20:11 they were all created during the six day period. Job 38:4-7 says these angelic beings were here at the creation of the earth, so logic would tell us that they were created on the first day just before God created the earth.

There was no death before Adam: Kent Hovind goes into excruciating detail of how Noah's flood did indeed produce the fossil record we see today, as well as the so-called "Geologic Ages" that exist nowhere outside of humanistic textbooks.

kevinw: I showed that the angels ("sons of God") were created before the earth, since they "shouted for joy" when God laid the foundations of it. You reference this verse:

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

But notice that the "heaven" is singular. It's imperative to notice not only tenses but quantitative adjectives in the Bible as well. The heaven that Moses is referring to is (since the rest of the verse is dealing with the earth) our atmosphere, so he's talking about all the flying creatures and the rest of the critters that inhabit or inhabited our earth, from Archeopteryx to the Bracheosaurus to the flying squirrel, whale and human beings.

Again, if the Gap were reconciled with the Bible, which I (after several years of study) firmly believe it to be, then why would anyone who claims to believe the Bible reject it?