We who are saved understand the grim reality of what it would be like to be out of God's presence for all eternity, and never know the ultimate Good, but the unsaved could care less, that's partly why they're going to hell. They don't care to know the Lord or His goodness during their lives on earth, therefore it will be that way for them forever. If it wasn't for the suffering and torments of hell, the damned would be quite content and comfortable there I'm sure, they are no strangers to being separated from God.

I am not sure where you get the idea that those in the lake of fire will be out of God's presence when the scriptures say,

Rev 14:10, 11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

The Lamb is God

Chette are you sure that passage states they will be tormented in God's presence forever?

That's a hard one to reconcile with the following verses of scripture:

"Depart from me" is not "in the presence of"...

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The location of the Lamb in eternity is the new Jerusalem...

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Christ dwells in the light...

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

The wicked are cast into outer darkness...

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The first thing I notice when I read these verses in context is that these events takes place DURING the Tribulation. The tormenting in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb in verse 10 could be only during that specific time frame. Then in verse 11 it's "the smoke of their torment" which ascends for ever and ever, that doesn't have to mean they will be in the Lamb's presence for ever and ever.

Bingo.
If I go out on the pool deck and observe my hamburgers on the grill at 7:30 p.m. then return to my living room at 7:45, the hamburgers have been grilled "in my presence," but that doesn't mean I have to keep watching them forever. It's a terrible illustration, but hey it's almost dinner time here.

Hmmm, well I too am skeptical of most of these out-of-body claims, but that's a little too sweeping of a statement for my taste. You can debate this statement with Dr. Rawlings and Ruckman. I am not ready to say that NO ONE has ever experienced at least a passing glimpse or tiny slice of the supernatural, including hell.

After all, it was the testimony of the man who was clinically dead who convinced the physician to seek a deeper knowledge of God in the Bible. That is undeniable. There were no drugs involved in this death experience. In the end, the experience didn't REVEAL God, it simply revealed a literal place called hell. Neither the doctor nor the patient was seeking a sign, nor were either of them "searching" for God. But that fellow saw something very real after he was clinically dead, and that's exactly what Bro. Ruckman believes too. It's a powerful little book, written by a respected cardiologist and recommended by Ruckman.

See link below...

"This isn't one of those books written by some quack out in left field, this one is written by a doctor, and one who has brought the dead back to life on more than one occasion. Here in this shocking book, people who have died and been brought back to life give their accounts as to what happened to them on "The Other Side". There is a Heaven, and there is a Hell, and once you read the true accounts from these ordinary people, you'll understand why you need to make a decision concerning Jesus Christ. Many of the folks in this book detail the horrors of Hell , and many share the warm loving and peaceful experience of Heaven. I have bought a number of copies of this book, and each time I lend a copy to a friend, it is never seen again. After one reads it, they share it with another , and then another and so on. This book will make you stop and think about death and about the after life."
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Deaths-.../dp/0553229702

I'm not ready to say that either brother (well, maybe about hell), but the catch phrase I mentioned is "that would cause them to believe". It just seems down right unfair to me that someone gets a glimpse of heaven or hell, then turns to God because of it, while everyone else is under the same rule of "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" John 20:29.

How about some Bible verses and not private interpretations.

Is that a "rule" or merely a statement? I can see your point, but then God Himself has already given them very clear view of hell in His Holy Word, hasn't he? I think there is a chance that deep down, even the unsaved are actually somewhat aware of hell among other things...

"For the wrath of God is REVEALED from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath SHEWED IT unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse..." Rom. 1:18-20

pffft, come on Chette, you never bothered to answer my question about the last verse you posted brother! How about engaging the conversation or stop being ugly. :cool: Now go back and reply to my post no. 83. :)

Agreed, the unsaved even use the very word "hell" in their vocabulary.

I guess what I'm trying to get across here is that I don't think God uses supernatural/paranormal experiences to lead men to Christ, such as near-death cases. Sure, He might shake up the reality of some people through bad accidents and funerals, etc, but give them a vision of heaven or hell? I just don't believe it. It could always be the Devil they're seeing as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14)??

Hmmm, that would make sense if it was just a vision, but the book does not contend that the event was a vision at all.

The book contends that the man ACTUALLY DIED, and he WENT TO HELL.
This happens every day, perhaps every second. As I understand it approximately 146,357 people die each day (that's about 2 per second), I'm sure you would agree that a percentage of them are going to hell. This is REAL, that part we agree on. What you are having a problem with is that one of them could COME BACK and TELL OTHERS ABOUT IT. This is certainly not common, it is highly unusual, but I'm not ready to say it could never happen. It happened to Jonah, so it is not completely outside the realm of the Biblical record. God allowed Jairus’ Daughter to come back, as He did with Lazarus. Those events were all REAL. I think all of this you would agree with.

So what's left? You are assuming they did not remember anything about it, and you are assuming they never told anyone about what they experienced, but the Bible doesn't say that, that is only an assumption. Who am I to say it can never happen.

So the patient is on the floor and he is dead.
The first chapter tells how Dr. Rawlings then inserted an electrical pacemaker wire into the vein under his collar bone and manipulated it through the venous system until the wire was dangled directly inside the man's heart, which shocked or stimulated the patient back into a living state.

At that point, the guy started screaming about being in hell and telling the doctor to pray for him because he was in great fear of going back into the fire. This was no vision, no drugs or pain killers were involved, the book contends it really happened and this is what the medical doctor is writing about.

Funny thing was, at this point the doctor was a devout atheist! :)

Good points there, and you're right that I am making assumptions about things that aren't crystal clear here.

Something else that crossed my mind...according to that book, did anyone actually face God when they died?

What do you believe about Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"? For years we've been preaching that when a man dies he immediately finds himself standing before God in judgment, then it's either to heaven or hell. If this isn't the case, and a person's soul goes straight to hell when they die in their sins, do you think that this judgment after death is a reference to the great white throne judgment that take place at least 1007+ years in the future?

More food for thought. Are you hungry?

Pr 15:11 Hell and destruction [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

If hell and destruction (the lake of fire is eternal destruction) is before him then it is in his presence forever and ever

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

I don't discount the fact that God is omnipresent and that the Bible teaches He is in hell and heaven (Psalms 139:8), but being in "the presence of the Lord" is something different, it looks like it refers to being in close proximity to the Godhead or the physical manifestation of the Lord:

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Genesis 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Jonah 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.

Aside from Revelation 14:10, which we've discussed, the scripture I've quoted in this thread doesn't support the lake of fire being "in the presence of the Lord" in eternity. Not that it won't be "before Him", for He sees everything, I just don't think it will be located right there in front of His throne "in His presence".

I never said is was right there in front of the throne. but he is as big as his heaven which is a lot larger than our universe.

As I read through all of this thread I saw many guesses as to hell and it's location. lots of links to works of men. I saw George had given a good study on the spirit and on the dead. I was waiting to see if any of you would indeed take the next step and first do a study on hell so that you would have some ground on which to build you ideas.

you made some good observations but no one did any study on hell. so here goes. I realize some of you could do a better job than I.

Excellent question.
Yep, I figure it has to be the great white throne judgment in the future.
I don't think the confidence for believers in 2 Corinthians 5:8 applies to all men.
When the unrepentant die they are placed "on second death row" into a temporary holding place (prison) to suffer until they are judged down the road. Sadly, they have no advocate with the Father, only the accuser. The very name of Satan means "the accuser."

where will Satan be accusing those who are in the temporary holding pin awaiting judgement?

Rev. 12:10 will give a hint, but not necessarily the complete answer.
Like I said before, the "location" of these things is a bit cloudy.

I agree that 2 Cori 5:8 is only for believers, being "present with the Lord" is a privileged position indeed, but I'm not convinced that the unsaved don't "meet" God immediately after death.

Amos 4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel.

When an unsaved man's soul leaves his body, surely God explains to him why he is sending him to hell, and that explanation in itself would be a judgment.

I think that's certainly possible, or it could be an angel with the message, or some creature in charge of hell who greets them with the bad news. God uses messengers sometimes. Either way, it's an unpleasant thought for sure brother.

And that creature wouldn't happen to be a talking invertebrate animal with a long, soft body and no legs by any chance, would it? :pound:

well if they are dead they are not the accused in Rev12:10. The context of Rev 12:10 the brethren is Israel on earth not lost men in hell. verse 11 lets us know that the loving not their lives was their requirement for salvation after Christ's blood and their Testimony. these are those that the souls under the altar are waiting for to be complete in Revelation 6.

Day and night would signify that it is taking place Now until Rev 20:2. and during the 7 year Great Tribulation. the woman mentioned at the beginning of this chapter and at the end is Israel. who is spoken of in Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

He most definitely could not be at the Great White throne Judgement accusing anyone.

As we looked through the scriptures on hell not once did we see anyone in charge of hell.

the belief that Satan or any being is in charge of hell comes not from the Bible but from Greek, Roman and Norse mythology just to name a few. Dante's Inferno also supports such. All world mythologies except Afircan have a hell type place. Jews had a two compartment, the Greek had a multi compartment as did Rome, and Norse had nine with a half blue face half black faced Hel in charge

while there may indeed be a personage in charge they are not there to torment anyone or torture as Kenneth Copland, Hagen, or Elizabeth Baxter claims in her book "Divine Revelation of Hell". For the flames and the worm are appointed for that purpose

We know that Angels are given the escorts for lost to cast them into the Lake of Fire. for we are told that the angles gather them like sticks and cast hem into the fire.

LOL, Kiwi you are a rascal, brother.... :rolleyes:

Really? And here I was thinking that Rosie O'Donnell would take over the job eventually...

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2...cal/Rosie2.jpg

If i put my money on it. I would say God is in charge of The lake of fire or eternal punishment.

Revelation says that there shall be no more sea(that big one that borders North Africa, western Asia, and southern Europe I have trouble spelling, lol) yet the location of the Land Of Promise remains constant. Matt, I'd say, if the lake does not burn during the Millenium, then the REAL "Big Bang" of Peter is the ignition point, that you just pointed out to us!!! I believe many locations and mysteries from the Bible are found in it and can easily be pointed out on earth. Just a little excercise in study, I think the Dead Sea is/will be the lake of fire. for one thing, it is the evil "dead" who will roast in it. For what purpose is the, as far as algae and aquatic life, a totally "dead" body of water bordering the Land Of Promise?

The eternal land grant to Abraham is found in Genisis 17:1-8.

1 ¶ And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 ¶ As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 ¶ And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Grace and peace brother.

Tony

There is more than one "sea" on this earth, I think you'll find that the "sea" in Rev 21:1 is a reference to the huge body of water above the firmament which is "frozen" in Job 38:30-31, this sea is "the deep" of Genesis 1:2.

Good observation Tony, but looking at this again I stand corrected and find that the first mention of the lake of fire buring is Rev 19:20 which happens at the end of the Tribulation at the battle of Armageddon!

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So it looks like it WILL be burning during the Millennium.
Yep, and Psalms 105:8-11 also...

He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations. Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac; And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant: Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:

God keeps his promises. You could be right about the geography of the new earth, with the land of promise being in the same location. I'll keep in mind your comments about the Dead Sea, I'm not completely dismissing the theory.

Of course He is brother, He created it...

Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." - Psalm 139:7-10

Matt, I really appreciate this forum where we can have fun and enjoyment; I believe you said something to the effect to George or Brother Parrish that it was neat that we can have these little studies we do and we can say, well, I stand corrected, without some Pharisee saying, I TOLD YOU SO!!!

Buddy, you want to see some hateful, vicious people, there is(was?) a forum called the "Fighting Funsadametalist Forum", most hate filled bunch of people I ever saw. I wasn't there long, but noticed most the messages were from 2005 and none after. They remind me of that bunch of rednecks who bashed Jack Nicholson's head in with axe handles towards the end of EASY RIDER.

Brother, you and Stephen think I'm off the wall about the location of the lake of fire, you ain't heard my belief on "ghosts" and the "cold spot", he he.

Hey, it's all good.

Grace and peace to you

Tony

I like what Kiwi said also

I have often wondered about these waters above the firmament.

Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

So, as Kiwi said, perhaps this "sea" or waters above the firmament will no longer exist. I gotta tell you, as a fellow that grew up on the beach in Florida who used to surf, I am hoping the seas will still be here. I don't know if we'll be allowed to do things like surfing in heaven, but I sure hope so. :)

We do know there is water in heaven

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

LOL, that is hilarious brother...
we only act that way when liberal Christians come in here and attack the KJV... :boxing:

Brother Parrish, once upon a time I went to hear a very prominent KJV defender speak; I was with the (then)pastor of a church I was in from the ground floor, I was there when it started though I was not considered a "founding" member. See, I owned a TV and watched it. Yet I went, (in jeans and flannel shirt, God looketh upon the heart, not the outer appearance)with a brother who is 6:3 and a former Marine drill instructor and another brother who is 5:7 and made up for lack of physical power with facial expression. We wanted to see if this KJV defender would discuss a Spanish New testament being represented as a "KJV in Spanish" that was actually the ASV in Spanish. The prominent KJV defender was quickly ushered out and any attempts by our pastor to address the brother in a Christian manner petered out, so to speak due to the fact of several young men who were bodybuilders(They were attired in suit would have made John Gotti weep with envy). Arm Twisters & Strong Arm Bodyguards For Christ. Though we went bearing precious seed we were somewhat rudely ushered out. I stood at the bottom of the steps and asked anyone in the crowd want to go down on the street where Christ is not named and witness with us? One of the young bodybuilders said rather loudly that, yeah, we were going donw to look at some leg. Some young families with children present stopped and stared at them, I thought these people would, whats the phrase, "sneeze kittens" in disgust? I said if you boys want a fight, come fight the devil on the street. To quote Amish from BRAVE HEART, theh gut ahll drrressed oop fer noothin'. They had to have the last word. The pastor of the church(now a "doctor") followed me out to my overpowered MOPAR and said I hurt those boys feelings and should apologize to them. I told him if any stepped off the stoop before we were all out of the parking lot I would circumcise them with a bloody husband knife(a small flint dagger, don't leave home without it) and then make them eunuchs. I used to be a bouncer in a biker bar that became a gay bar and closed after a week due to drug dealing by the new owners, I was a vending machine tech who had to service five adult bookstores who were overseen by a sergeant supervisor of the local police dept. on his days off. I guess my point is that Voltaire' once said there are men who can't control their families so they retreat to the attic to rule the world(as Karl Marx). I guess there are men who can't rule their apostate tendencies and retreat to the internet where they can rule the doctrine of inspiration. I'm not impressed with thug-enforcers, especially if they carry Bibles. I'm not impressed with Christians who think running a ministry is like an epsiode of The Sopranos. I'm not impressed with "Christians" who play the JW Shell Game of trying to say II Tim. 3:16 refers only to the "original manuscripts" when an 8 year old Sunday school child could rip his argument apart.

Bro. Parrish I have written ye in a small letter and depart with two questions: Is the weapons of our warfare carnal? And has the long held secret that will destroy Christianity, one indeed more damaging than The Da Vinci Code, has it leaked out, to wit, that poor old dumb God has finally succumbed to Alzheimers; He wrote these manuscripts and forgot where He put them...

...is that why we need all theses "doctors"?

Woe is me.
Woe is we
Jesus wept.

grace and peace

ynoT:jaw:

LOL Brother Tony, I would love to respond to that, but I'm going to need someone to translate it so I can understand exactly what you wrote.... :confused:

Forgive me brother, I have been out on the lake riding the Sea-Doos today and I am kind of exhausted.

he he, forgive me my friend. Just a little sarcastic levity pertaining to some antics of some of those silly Earthlings who look right, talk right, act right, carry the right book(KJV), separate themselves from the same things, and have lost the vision of what it's all about. Many have forgotten, while preaching against lifestyle evangelism, they have adopted it. One year we had a tract booth you could take apart and put together with wing nuts. We didn't sell lemonade, we gave the gospel of Christ for free. We paid for the tracts out of our own pockets which was no hardship. I got restless and went up the street, one of the bikers had pulled a knife on one of the men(the six foot+ ex-Marine). I told him, put the knife in me or put it away, I have no family, this man has 3 kids, put the knife in me. He said what if he didn?t put the knife away? I told him he had 2 seconds to put it away or it would be between the valley of his gluteal muscles(To be better understood I had to use the street colloqial and vernacular). While he was stunned I just reached out and FLICK!, took it right out of his hand.(nice GERBER GATOR, I still have it). While he protested about his knife he said, "Why do you look like US(I don't have a beard though)but you talk and act like THEM?"

I told him that he was not suppose to be LOOKING AT ME, but the words on the page of THIS BOOK. I thanked him for the knife and walked back to the booth. Bro. Parrish, I'm a tobacco using, gun-owning heterosexual(a rare type in America)who thinks Ted Nugent is easy listening music and am a fan of drag racing. I see no reason to be Pat Boone on the outside while I am Count Dracula inside.

I guess my point is you never know who's gonna pop up claiming to believe the KJV is the inspired word of God, and there are many who will claim to be willing to take a knife for Jesus and those who actually will. So much for me. He must increase while I decrease. Given that background though woe be unto he who cometh forth claiming only the original manuscripts are inspired. I threw bikers out of bars after disarming them then later years witnessed to them, so White, Kutelik, and Hudson are a Trio Of Miniscule Swine going squee squee squee.

I hope you had a laugh brother, I don't do the Skee Doo, I can't swim.

Grace and peace my friend

Tony

Haha, wow those are some crazy stories, and funny too...
I never took a knife from a guy but I did almost get a beating in front of an abortion clinic one time (that was as close as I have ever come to a demon possessed bunch for sure).
I salute you for your honesty Bro. Tony, a.k.a. Count Dracula! :D

Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

I would feel in a bit of a predicament were that to happen to me in lieu of the above Scripture Bro. Parrish, Doc Ruckman is not the only one trained in akido.
One brother once told me I was a lot like Peter. A bit passionate is the context. But Paul says also to in the same chapter to offer ourselves as a living sacrifice for the gospel's sake. We don;t go out to witness with the intent of turning it into a brawl, as Satan would like to happen.

The pastor of the church we attended for reasons unknown ended church support of the street ministry. We never got it off the ground again. In the months prior we had one man, a janitor, who drunkenly berated us in the most foul language, tired to embarrass the women, brandish a mop at us. I suppressed my Dracula-like tendencies and we just waited on God. We continued with no incidents, save for rocks and bottles and fluids in baggies. The very last night we were down there, this man came to my brother, the six foot+ exMarine, with tears in his eyes he apologized and said for us "...not to leave him, alone there..." I told him with God, you are never alone. My buddy witnessed to him with more tears, THAT made the entire sum total of abuse we took worth it. THAT was the power of God happening right there. To change a heart is the hardest thing to do, not exceed the speed of light or balance the national budget.

We're seated in heavenly places already. We could just be Calvinists and sit back and do nothing. We need to ignore the abuse and be compassionate with these people and compassionate to them. If taking a punch or a slash with a knife would help someone avoid hell, well, Paul said he'd gladly be damned in exchange for Israel's salvation.

We walk by faith and not by sight, but nothing edifies another Christian so much as to let them witness to a lost person. If a Christian don't love sinners then they need to write tracts, wax the church floors, bake pies for the charity auctions. Arthur Blessit logged 36,000 miles on FOOT for sinners, Jesus Christ died for them. What's so hard for us?

I never saw that drunk again, I hope someday I see him kneeling at Christ's feet where I can join him.

Grace and peace brother

A Kinder, Gentler Tony

That is very true brother... :thumb:

Ain't that the truth!

What always has, and probably always will, bug me, is the fact that 20-50-100 professing Bible-believing Christians come together in the same local church services every week, hear the same sermons, read the same Bible, experience the same blessings when together, yet only a few of them are actively serving the Lord through the church ministries? We can all say amen to the preacher in unison, we can all sing the hymns out loud and praise the Lord, yet only a few turn up on the streets to preach & witness, only a few get to church early and enjoy the extra fellowship & prayer, only a few learn their memory verses every week...I won't rant on.

"What's so hard for us" you ask, I suppose it's that 'dying daily' business that Paul spoke about. The older I grow the more of a mystery other peoples (Christians) hearts are to me.