Man, this is good stuff here Luke. You know, I never understood this subject much. I've just read that it's also known as Harrowing of Hell. There is so much that goes on outside of our perception. However, I don't think sacrifice was required for their salvation. You'd have to show me explicitly with the Word where it is clear that this is so. I know that there are scriptures that state that the blood of sacrificial animals could never take away sins.

Hebrews 10:1-6 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

I think it was faith that brought the OT saints into this place we call Abraham's Bosom. And it was their faith that God would redeem them that brought them there. Their obedience to Torah was just a result of that faith, since God was so very clear in his requirements, that it would truly take a reprobate mind to disregard the will of God for Israel in those times. I thank my God that He has raised his standards of those that fear Him (some people think we have an easy covenant, which indeed is true in regards to entering into that covenant, however the truth is that God has raised His standards for His people).

Anywho, thanks for giving me something to think about.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

Of course faith is always involved in salvation but they had to keep the law and commandments to prove their faith was genuine. they could believe and not kept the law and commandments but they would have no salvation. their faith needed to be accompanied by actions to secure God's favor.

Today is the only time you are saved through faith alone and when you believe on Jesus you are eternally saved for he is the Author of Eternal Salvation Heb 5:9

Greetings Luke,

I would have made a mistake if I had made that statement. I never said that Old Testament prophets were bought by the blood of the Lamb. What I said is that there were false prophets in the New Testament that were bought by the blood of the Lamb and they were headed for damnation. I was only repeating what Peter said.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

By the way, thanks for toning it down some.

Peace

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Gophgetter, you have caused offence to me because the salvation that you speak of is not the salvation I have been taught and believe, I refuse to bite at the bait you are clearly throwing among us anymore, In all honesty what you teach makes me feel physically Ill. What you post in no way edifies me personally and You have caused division in this forum because you have divided yourself against 99% of the forum members. I am simply doing what The Bible commands me to do and I will personally avoid your posts from here on in.

2nd John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

1st Tim 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Posted in the name of the Author Of My Eternal Salvation, The LORD Jesus Christ.

You are over reacting. There is no need to be offended by what he's said. It is no division to bring forth scripture to support what one says/asks. If you cannot stand the heat of a biblical debate/discussion then you shouldn't be involved in one. This issue of un/conditional security has been debated since our God moved the pens of men to write our beloved Bible. I have listened to people debate it, write about it, insult people about it etc, and I can still say there is evidence to support both doctrines within our Bible. Personally, I still believe that Salvation is conditional upon faith, and that faith is distinct from belief.

James 2:19-20 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (I don't want to hear that this book is not for me, I'm stating right now, I believe that it is for all Christians, and I've heard the arguments against this belief already)

Anywho, I think we all should take a moment and chill. Pray, read your Bible, fellowship with the brethren, whatever. Just do what you gotta do to relax and put away this spirit that is clouding our minds enough to go at eachother like this.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Renee,

I joined this group because I love the Word of God and I love to talk about the Word of God. I'm also very concerned about the preservation of the Word of God and the King James version. I never meant to cause offense or division in this group or any other for that matter. The Bible tells us to seek peace and ensue it. Paul also tells us in Rom. 14 that we should "follow after the things that make for peace".

Having said that, let me say something else. I am also one who seeks the truth of the Word of God. If you could hear my testimony and where God has brought me from and where He has brought me to, you might understand me a little better. Since I have joined this group, I have been insulted more than once and my words have been taken and twisted more than that. But I'm still here because I love the Word of God and the KJV.

You said that you were offended because the salvation that I speak of is not the salvation that you were taught and believe. Guess what? The salvation that I see in the Bible is not the salvation that I was taught and believed. Yet, I found out as I began to read the Bible for myself that there were some verses in the Bible that contradicted what I was being taught. And when I would ask a "man of God" what these verses meant, here are some of the answers I got.

"That verse doesn't apply to you"
"That verse is not for today"
"There are just some things that we won't understand until we get to Heaven"

Let me ask you this. Have you taken those verse that I posted and read them in your own Bible? I challlenge you to do so. You might be surprised to find out that some of the verses in the Bible, not me, contradict what you have been taught and believe.

Peace

That was good advice. You should listen to it. Instead of telling people Christ isn't powerful enough to save them "for good" without their "help," you should be studying your Bible to figure out these "contradictions" aren't actually contradictions but simply verses that need to be divided.

Brandon, this statement is doesn't help anyone. Instead of telling us that, in essence, we're wrong and need to think like you, you should show us how 2 Peter 2:1 isn't for us. Is this so difficult? At least this gives us a chance to state why we believe as we do.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

If salvation comes by persevering in righteousness and works, then Christianity is no different to any other religion.

Gophgetter I don't know why you addressed the reply to me as Renee but however.
If I came into your house and told you that you were bringing up your Kids wrong, that the things that you have been teaching them in love are completely wrong and you need to change right now or they will grow up twisted and wrong, would you do it ? would you go against all you believe and listen to a complete stranger? NO of course you wouldn't, the same way that I will not reconsider verses that you post that bring into scrutiny the salvation of My LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ, my Father in Heaven who IS powerful enough to hold my salvation for me, like George and myself mentioned in previous posts, that does not give Christians a license to sin.
In John 3:1-7 the bible is CLEAR that just as a child cannot go back into a mothers womb neither can a believer go back into an unregenerate state.
Are you fully trusting on the LORD Jesus Christ for you salvation? If you are then how can you be dependent on the life you lead to keep you there?
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." -Romans 4:5
You know what......I have blessed peace and assurance from My God, that it is he, who I rest upon SOLELY for my salvation, that his "FINISHED" work on that old cross was for ME. That I was a wretched sinner and I was saved by Grace through faith. Oh what a precious Gift I was given of eternal life,
"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
My salvation is based upon God's love for this sinner and not of my own self righteousness. I STILL SIN if I said i did not I would be a Liar,but I am absolutely more aware of what sin is and the form it takes and I do NOT LET IT REIGN.
I certainly did not do anything to save myself, except allow Christ to save me, therefore How can I do anything myself to unsave me?
Certainly a Christian can lose the JOY of salvation just as David sings of in Psalm 51:12
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
My LORD, My Saviour, My Rock in whom I put all my trust said
"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." and do you know what? I BELIEVE HIM
Closing this, can I ask you, Can a son no longer be a son, can a daughter no longer be a daughter? anymore than a saint can no longer be saved.
Stephanos Brother I have prayed wholeheartedly and studied my Bible with the author and rightly divided as BEST I CAN on this matter, and I have absolutely no malice or bad feeling towards Gophgetter in fact, I LOVE HIM. Gophgetter there is no attack on you at all, I personally am making a statement scripturally to say to you, I will NOT debate any further with you regarding ETERNAL salvation because it causes me Offence personally because Jesus Christ brought me from the brink of suicide and saved me and ANY MAN that comes along and tells me that He cannot hold me there I will certainly not entertain.

In My Saviour's name the LORD Jesus Christ.

Gophgetter,

Allow me to re-post this question that you never answered on another thread.

Are you saved, right now? Can you give us a day/time when you were born spiritually, or is your salvation an ongoing thing?

I am not implying that you are not saved, but I am interested in your replies.

I'm guessing by now that I'm not the only one interested in you reply.

Rightly Dividing and how it works with 2Peter 2:1
 

maybe I can help shed a liitle light here. ok let me first and please just follow along even if at this moment you are not wanting to rightly divide. and I will divide only the New Testament. and it wont be exhaustive but should give you a basic understanding of how to see applications from one Age or division to another.

1) Q: Ok when you look at the Gospels who is physically teaching?
A: John the Baptist, Jesus, the Apostles, the 70 disciples.

2) Q: what Gospel are they preaching?
A: the Gospel of the kingdom, repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. the same in Acts 2.
Here the gospel is accompanied by works. if they have faith in the mesage they were to be baptized for the remission of sins this would place them as subject ready to enter the earthly Kingdom which is being preached and at hand.

3) Q: Ok in the Books from Romans to Philemon who is teaching?
A: Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles.

4) Q: What Gospel is he Preaching?
A: For by grace are you saved through Faith and this not of yourselves it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. here the Gospel of Salvation into a spiritual kingdom and it is purely by faith no works of baptism or keeping the law is needed as in the Old Testament.

5) Q: in the books Hebrews to Revelation who is teaching?
A: The Apostles, 144,000 male virgin Jews, 2 witnesses.

6) what Gospel is being preached? the kngdom Gospel is again being preached. here they are required to endure to the end (as in Matthew 24, 25 in speaking of the Tribulation period), they must not take the mark. and they are saved to enter the Kingdom. Revelation 21tells us that those martyred for the word and Jesus were resurrected and brought into the Kingdom. their bodies are restored to former state not glorified bodies.

7) Q: Revelation 14 who is teaching?
A: An Angel standing in the sun.

8) Q: What Gospel in proclaimed
A: the Everlasting Gospel

Now we can see clearly from the answers to these questions and a simple reading of the NT that there are six basic division to the NT. the Preparation for the Kingdom Age Matt-Acts 8 (roughly), the Church Age Acts 12-Philemon, the Tribulation Hebrews-Revelation 20, the Millenial Earthy Kingdom Rev 21, and the Eternal Kingdom Rev 22.

fisrt let me say, 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: so we see that Scriptures have a four part or divisional use. you will need to divide to know which scripture is for doctrine, or which for reproof, which is for correction and which is for instruction in righteousness.

now how do we determine a doctrine for today? look at the Divisions and you will need to compare. lets take one doctrine in order to get an idea of how this works.

The Gospel.

How do we determine which Gospel is for today?

first stepis to determine which division of time you are in. we are currently in the church age our primary teacher is Paul the apostle to the Gentiles of which we are Gentiles.

now compare Pauls Gospel with that of the pre-cross Gospel of John the baptist. Are they the same? No of course not. Pauls says by grace through faith alone. John says be baptized for th remission of sins. Peter later teaches this same Gospel in Acts 2.

So the General rule is if it doesn't agree with Pauls teaching it is not to be classified as a Doctrine for today.

now lets look a 2 Peter 2:1.

What Age is it in? The tribultaion period according to the divisions we could see above.

Who is teaching? Peter. so it is not the apostle to the Gentiles. But the Apostle to Israel or the Jews. His ministry was always to those of the circumcision Jews and Jewish proslytes.

the verse in question 2Peter 2:1, 2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
now this verse is in agreement with Paul teaching on the subject of false teachers. especially in 2Timothy Chapter 2:14 through 3:9 and others. but the point is there willbe false teachers who bring in daminable teachings that other will follow and speak evil of truth.

ok here we have agreement. it is a teaching but not necessarily a doctrine. this would fall under reproof, correction or an instruction.

However this is not the issue of this post the issue of this post is the Loss of Salvation this would apply tothe post who first taught eternal salvation. of which Gophgetter said was a damniable heresy being taught today. I would say he is speaking evil of the ways of truth (see 2Peter2:2 last part of the verse).

can we look to Salvation.

What did Jesus Teach?
John 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. We see here everlasting means never ending
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. see Eph 1:13 for the sealing.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jesus clearly taught that beleif on him would result in everlasting life or eternal salvation.

What di Paul teach?
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. One of Paul's first messages taught everlasting life inthe belief on Christ.
Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. here Paul is teaching that you are free from the Eternal penelty of sin and are now servants of God with fruit unto holiness and in the end eternal life for thiose who were made free by believing on Christ.
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Paul teaches eternal life through Jesus Christ
Ephesians 2:6-9 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Our New life is to be shown through the Ages to come that is right through the tribulation into Eternity. and God who cnnot lie says he will do this and he will not change his mind on this issue. we are eternally set. Paul clearly taught etrenal life or salvation in Christ Jesus.

and even though the Author is unclear even though some say it is Paul, God taught in Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Jesus was made perfect in his obedience unto death and was risen from the dead that all those who believe shall have eternal salvation or eternal life in him in heaven. because God has so ordained he should be the Author of Eternal Salvation.

We here have thre divisions agreeing on this issue of Eternal Salvation. so Eternal Life or Salvation is a doctrine for today. Eternal Salvation is just that eternal once an eternal decree is set it cannot be changed. even if you sin it wont change a thing because it is an Eternal God who has set you into eternal life and salvation.

simple division can help you see truths clearly

Stephen, according to your statement I quoted. You are not a KJV beleiver because you don't beleive what it clearly teaches as shown above. you are revealing yourself more and more to be in error on many issues. But we also know the reason now don't we? It is because you took ofense to someone statements about Rightly Dividing scriptures when they corrected you because of a false beleif. and you carry that bitterness with you until this day and everytime someone reproofs or corrects you by right division you become antagonistic towards them. but learing to obey Gods word of 2Tim2:15 will be the turning point of your spirituality and will give you greater understanding of th word of God and help you to grow more in grace and be solid in clearly taught doctrine and apllications.

Learn Eph 4:17-32 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: hat ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you

Romans 12:1, 2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. you are conformed to wordly standards of music as states in your musical instrument posts, you are not allowing your mind to be renewed by God for his will by obeying his clear word on rightly dividing. and here you state you don't beleive what the KJV Bible clearly states on Eternal Salvation.

You are still conforrmed to this wolr din listening to other men and women rather that obeying God. Forget what sister Tracy taught. you get to the word and study as God prescribes you to in 2Timothy2:15 and you will know more than she ever did. and simply beleive Gods clear word on any issue dispite what false teachers or posters are saying.

I just don't see in Scripture where the writers of Hebrews through Revelation are speaking to anyone other than those who are followers of Jesus Christ, whether Hebrew/Gentile I make no distinction. Paul's teachings make it clear that once a Jew or a Gentile put their faith in Jesus Christ they are all one. Also where do you get that these books were written by 144000 male virgin jews, and the two witnessess? You see, you think I'm against right division, but you presume to much. The issue is that your method of division (in your eyes) is the ONLY one that is right. You show a lot of pride as well when you speak in regards to your understanding which rubs me the wrong way. You need to get over yourself and learn humility. You also need to quit stretching things when you read the Scriptures. You get a hint that something may be different than other parts of Scripture then you stretch it to fit into this precast mold of how the Scriptures ought to work (again in your eyes). I wish you would stop. Perhaps if you ditched your tone and presumptions about things, then maybe we could meet and have a discussion, but we can't Chette. You have already made up your mind and will not even consider that you could be wrong. I can say in all honesty that I have been willing to look at things as if I could be wrong, and have learned a great deal in regards to what you would call right division. But I do not agree with everything you say. If you (again) can ditch this puffed up attitude and be willing to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you, and more importantly that because they don't agree with you, doesn't make them wrong, then and ONLY then can we meet and discuss things.

for Jesus' sake,
Stephen

I don't see a puffed up attitude from Chette at all, I see a man that is using scripture correctly to try and show another brother the Light of Truth. Neither can I see any pride in his posts because he is simply trying to reach out to you in regards to what music you yield yourself to. As far as I have read he has gone to great lengths to show you that reggae music just isn't Godly music, I lived and breathed trance music but I just knew I had to leave that behind when I came to the LORD. I was in exactly, and I mean EXACTLY the same position as yourself I didn't want anyone telling me that my music wasn't godly and I fought with my own flesh over the issue and do you know what brother ? It was MY PRIDE that kept me from seeing the truth.
Its your choice, only you will stand before Christ and give account of what you have done in the flesh

In my Saviour's name The LORD Jesus Christ.

Greetings Brandon,

It's bad enough when the members of the group twist my statements to say something that I never did say, but when the forum administrator does it, it is a little disconcerting. Show me one place where I said that Christ isn't powerful enough to save them "for good" withour their "help".

Peace

Sorry
 

Greetings PB,

You're right. I did not answer your question and I apologize for that. No disrespect intended. I will answer your question on the thread it was asked.

Peace

"now lets look a 2 Peter 2:1.

What Age is it in? The tribultaion period according to the divisions we could see above.

Who is teaching? Peter. so it is not the apostle to the Gentiles. But the Apostle to Israel or the Jews. His ministry was always to those of the circumcision Jews and Jewish proslytes."

Greetings Brandon,

These statements that you are making are not supported by the scriptures. First, let's look at the time period that is being addressed.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

You'll notice that Peter is including himself in this statement of the promises that are given.

2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

Why would Peter us the words "present" and "be established" if he was talking about some future group of believers in the tribulation. Doesn't compute. The next three verses prove that he is writing to people that were alive while he himself was living.

2 Peter 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

How you can say that this is written to people in the tribulation period is beyond me. Now let's look at who Peter is writing to. You say it's to the Jews. You also said that Peter's ministry was always to the circumcision. Have you not read the 10th chapter of Acts where Peter opened the gospel to the Gentiles. What about Peters first epistle? Was it written to the Jews or the Gentiles? Let's take a look.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

The Jews were not referred to as strangers but the Gentiles were. Look at Ephesians 2.

Eph. 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


2:19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

If 1st Peter is written to the Gentiles, then 2 Peter is also. Look at the following verse from 2 Peter 3:1.

2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

Why would Peter use the term "second" epistle if one was written to the Gentiles and one to the Jews. Like I said brother, doesn't compute.

Peace

Sorry for calling you Renee. Got my posts mixed up.

hem talaga

Brandon did't write the Post you quoted Gophgetter I did and I am not him.

Yeah he was speaking to People who were alive at that time. Jewish people Peter beleived of the immenant return of Christ which would be proceeded by the TRIBULATION. It wont compute to you cause you don't rightly divided.

I never said his ministry was ONLY to the Jews I said always to the Jews. Peter was to confirm that The Gospel was meant for all men including Gentiles that is the whole point if Acts 10 and his testimony in Acts 11. but you never again see Peter ministring to The Gentiles in the church Age. By Acts 13 Peter is no where to be found. after this you never Read of peter anywhere doing ministry to the Gentiles nor is he in Rome.

the Jews were given the exceeding great and precious promises The us meaning they the Jews and Gentile converts that beleived Jesus would return and establish the Kingdom. At acts 2 the body is being built (even though you don't see it), so they were given the divine nature which is the Holy Spirit presently and completed in a future time. the only promises this age gets is Eternal Life in Christ by faith alone and you can't lose it, a new body and rewards. the promisses to Israel were teh great and preceious promises of a King who would rule in rigteousness over all the world and that with a rod of Iron.

but the Gentiles weren't scattered in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, that always was their lands, the Jews however were scattered in those lands as Peter adresses them and they are not appointed to return until the last days and in that sense they are strangers in the land they dwelt. You may have taken a cew from Ruckman on that one. I love that guy but sometimes he is wrong.

If you try to make the scattering the tower of Babel then you have to remove it from the context which is the scattering of the Tribulation. again a cultic practice of taking verse out of context.

the Strangers of Peter and Paul are different you have blended them to be all Gentiles. but as stated above the Gentile possessed those lands only Israel was scattered throughout them by the Roman Armies who destroyed their temple in 70ad. Peter was thinking they were in the Tribulation when he wrote his letters.

what agrees with Paul in teaching is for us. but just because they both use the word strangers don't make them the same thing. Again you took the verse(in this case the word) out of context.

Peter did minster to both Gentile and Jew and he is writiing to both in the tribulation. I did say that the above lesson of How to divide rightly of which you didn't care to learn from in the first place was not exhaustive. and we only addressed the verse Stephen quoted. and the context of this Post which is Loss of Salvation.

I'm new to this forum, and I was wondering why there is so much argueing going on instead of open discussion. Now I'm a Independant Baptist by doctrinal standing, but I'm first and foremost A born again believer. I say "believer" because others are to call us "Christains" not us.

Now I believe the Bible strongly teaches that salvation is eternal. I am a victim of easy beliefism, and the humanistic teaching that has been going on in Christian circles. When I was a child, an invitation was given, and I went forward to get saved. I was asked, as a child, if I wanted to go to Heaven. My obvious answer was "yes". They led me in a prayer and said I was saved.

On Feb.12,2007 I heard a message from the radio days that was played in my class on street preaching. Our salvation has nothing to do with whether on not we want to go to Heaven or Hell.

Our salvation is totally dependent upon the Holy Spirit drawing us to realize our standing as a sinner before a Holy, Sovergn, God; understanding that their is a penalty for sin; that God has provided payment for sin, Jesus' death, burial, and ressurection,; repentance of our sin before a Holy, Sovergn, God, and accepting what Christ has done on mankinds behalf as enough. That is what makes us a "bond servant", which Paul referrs to himself as being many times.

Salvation only occurs in this Biblical, none humanistic way. This may help explain why so many people could loss their salvation. It was because they were trusting in a prayer, works, on everything else we can list that is of themselves. Even realizing that you are lost is of God, not ourselves. That's why there can be no boasting.

If you can believe someone can loose their salvation? Please explain Peter's denying of Jesus before His death, and then Jesus forgiving Peter after His resurection. Did Peter finally get saved around the fire eating fish with Jesus.
Yes, grace is envolved, because God wants us to realize its not about us its about Him. We are his tools, but humanism has taught us that He is our tool. I belive this is call utilitarianism. I didn't use scripture because the Holy Spirit prompted me to share this with the whole forum. I'm not a great memorizer of Scripture, and the rest of you used so much scripture. My Question is what did the Holy Spirit that exsits within you say about what I just shared.

Be careful not to fight fleshly battles when we are supposed to be letting the Holy Spirit control us. I believe that has one of the most important things that God stressed throught Paul's writings. By the way a believer who lives in the flesh will appear as if they lost their salvation too.

Like I said I'm new

Stephanos,

Generally in the historical context Hebrews (if written by Paul) was to unsaved and saved jews under the Kingdom Gospel. the same with Peters writtings they are to the scattered Jews both beleivers and unbelievers but in the tribulation. because the disciples of Peters ministry were scarttered by persecution and Peter had to Leave Jerusalem because as far as the Romans were concerned he was an excaped prisoner. and all were saved under the Gospel of the Kingdom read teh transitional book of Act 1-8. the Kingdom gospel goes down hill from here and the Gospel of Grace become clearly evident in the rest of the Book of Acts.

your confusing the gospel of Grace taught by Paul with that one taught by the Apostles which was the Gospel of the Kingdom. this is the root of your misunderstanding and not seeing the clear light of the KJV in the books fromHebrew to Revelation 14

I am not presuming anything Gods word is quite clear if you would spend more time reading it rather than the works of others. the 144,00 and the 2 witnesses no where preach the Gospel of Grace that is where you are presuming.

The reason you don't see it is because you are closed minded to the process of how to rightly divide. there are many ways to divide but only one can be the correct way. so there are guidelines to how we do this. if you want to you will learn them.

you are interpreting the way I suggest to rightly divide as prideful. you are wrong. I learned this process because it is the only logical and proper way to divide the word of God that can be found. I found it to be the correct way and many will agree that it is. you don't have to agree but then you will be limited and confused as to what the scriputre teach.

so quit being so wicked as to constantly attacking me for being prideful and buffed up. that is only your interperetation from your egotisitical point of veiw as you read my text. You show no grace at all my friend. Get over yourself and learn for once. Only wicked people filled with bitterness attack people that way you do me.

Also quit speaking for me I never said I am not willing to learn. the point is I already thought the way you do in the past and by the Holy Ghost I learned certain things. then instead of reinventing the wheel I discovered others had already laid the ground works to what I was learning by the Holy Ghost. Maturity is really lacking in your post towards me.

pg 6 post 351 by pbiwolski
You also attributed a quote from peopleoftheway and applied it to me.

So come on and tell us of your salvation and where you came from and how you got to where you are now so "we can understand you better."

We are waiting.

Renee

PS got to read through all the post finally. I'll go check that thread out.

Renee,

Here is Gophgetter's answer to your guestion from "who was thefirst..."post

QUOTE
Stephanos,

Generally in the historical context Hebrews (if written by Paul) was to unsaved and saved jews under the Kingdom Gospel. the same with Peters writtings they are to the scattered Jews both beleivers and unbelievers but in the tribulation. because the disciples of Peters ministry were scarttered by persecution and Peter had to Leave Jerusalem because as far as the Romans were concerned he was an excaped prisoner. and all were saved under the Gospel of the Kingdom read teh transitional book of Act 1-8. the Kingdom gospel goes down hill from here and the Gospel of Grace become clearly evident in the rest of the Book of Acts.

your confusing (another case of the i'm right your wrong mentality) the gospel of Grace taught by Paul with that one taught by the Apostles which was the Gospel of the Kingdom. this is the root of your misunderstanding and not seeing the clear light of the KJV in the books fromHebrew to Revelation 14

I am not presuming anything Gods word is quite clear if you would spend more time reading it rather than the works of others (Again, the i'm right, your wrong mentality. You don't know me. The KJB is the only authority on matters of faith and practice, and that's how I've always stood). the 144,00 and the 2 witnesses no where preach the Gospel of Grace that is where you are presuming. (No, I was wondering why you made it sound like these folks wrong the books)

The reason you don't see it (and the beat goes on...) is because you are closed minded (and on...) to the process of how to rightly divide. there are many ways to divide but only one can be the correct way (that would be your way I'm guessing...) . so there are guidelines to how we do this. if you want to you will learn them. (*sigh*)

you are interpreting the way I suggest to rightly divide as prideful (nope, only the way you throw it in my face every time I say something). you are wrong (I guess so...). I learned this process because it is the only logical and proper way (oh now I see...) to divide the word of God that can be found. I found it to be the correct way and many will agree that it is. you don't have to agree but then you will be limited and confused (I really am...) as to what the scriputre teach.

so quit being so wicked (*sigh*) as to constantly attacking me (Chette, when will you realize that it is you that nearly always attacks me for something I say. I've been the one having to do the double take and defend myself against your attacks on the way I read the Holy Bible) for being prideful and buffed up. that is only your interperetation from your egotisitical point of veiw as you read my text. You show no grace at all my friend. (You've given me no room to) Get over yourself and learn for once. Only wicked people filled with bitterness attack people that way you do me. (perhaps if you quit calling me wrong at every turn, and presuming to know the ONLY way to rightly divide I would be more inclined to listen to you, instead of defending myself the way I've had to)

Also quit speaking for me I never said I am not willing to learn. the point is I already thought the way you do in the past and by the Holy Ghost I learned certain things. then instead of reinventing the wheel I discovered others had already laid the ground works to what I was learning by the Holy Ghost. Maturity is really lacking in your post towards me. (i'm sorry you feel this way Chette. I've tried reallyl hard to help you to see that I'm tired of the tone of your comments, and the constant "I'm right your wrong, LEARN THE ONLY WAY NOW" responses of yours but I'm finding it quite difficult)
QUOTE

I hope I've made my points clear.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

EDIT: I'm done. I'm not responding to these kind of posts anymore. I just don't have the stamina to do so, and I don't see how this is good for anyone.

Stephanos,

So you don't like the "I'm right, you're wrong" stuff.

Well, do you have a desire to be right in your interpretation and understanding of scripture? I've been reading your "anti-dispensational" posts over the last several weeks, and it seems Chette is the primary one that won't let you get away with your nonscense. If you don't want to get it right, then don't start with the crybaby routine like you're the victim of this mean monster Chette.

There's alot of folks on this forum that do have it right, but we all just aren't going to take the time with you. You've already (over and over) rejected the sound doctrine of proper Bible division, and show no interest in learning what you obviously do not understand.

So, don't jump on someone that is trying to aid you because you don't like his tone, for it wasn't always so harsh, you know.

Thanks Chette,
I did go and check that out on the other thread, but I do think it is good to have it here too.

Renee

Re: spiritualcrusader > "I'm new to this forum"
 

Aloha brother,

I appreciate your sentiments, but there are times when we must "contend" for the faith. I have been a member of this Forum for almost 7 months and during that time we have dealt with a number (approximately 12 or so) of "kooks", "Sophists", "blasphemers", "heretics" and "reprobates".

Although we are called to preach, teach, and to warn (for edification) - We are also called to admonish, reprove, and rebuke (for edification & correction).

I find it very instructive that since “gophgetter” joined our Forum that he has been the center of one “controversy” after another, and he has generated a great deal of strife, confusion and doubt {I wonder where THAT comes from?}

When he posted his first "Thread" on: "Who Was The First One to Teach 'Once Saved, always Saved'?" Under > AV1611 Bible Forums > Doctrine. He "insinuated" that those of us who believe in ETERNAL SALVATION (i.e. ETERNAL SECURITY) are False Prophets; False Teachers; and we have embraced a "damnable heresy" i.e. ETERNAL SALVATION! [The Accuser of the brethren - Revelation 12:10]

He then went on to state: Did you see the words "eternal life" (or even life) in the scripture verses "gophgetter" cited? Satan didn't promise them that they would have "Eternal Life" or "Everlasting Life" - he told them: "ye shall not surely die" (and he lied!). And so we have this stranger (a new-comer), "gophgetter", privately interpreting Scripture and making it say something that it didn't say (that is if words mean anything). "Gophgetter" ADDED to the words of God in order to PROVE his "false doctrine" i.e. damnable heresy!

"Gophgetter" continued on:
"Gophgetter" insults us by calling us "KIDS": ("Are ya ready kids?") I'm 68 years old {Saved for 50 years - preaching & teaching the Scripture of Truth for 40 years} I'm definitely NOT "a kid" by any stretch of the imagination. But that's not as important as the "damnable heresy" that he has embraced and is promoting: He stated that Satan . . . "He was the first one to teach that you can never lose eternal life." "Gophgetter" is impugning the truthfulness and integrity of Almighty God and His Holy word! He is attributing the doctrine of Eternal Security to Satan! And he has testified that this doctrine (that most of us on this Forum believe) is a damnable heresy!
[1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.]

On three (3) occasions I have asked “gophgetter” to judge us, as to whether we are False Prophets and False Teachers and whether we have embraced a "damnable heresy" and he has ignored my inquiries. He refuses to "man up" and answer truthfully and testify to what he really believes about most of us, instead he ignores my inquiries and continues to "engage" some of the brethren in strifes and debate [2Corinthians 12:20]. All the while feigning "innocence" (WHO me? WHAT did I say? WHY are you so upset?).

The man is clearly a HERETIC (according to the Scriptures) and I for one will not "engage" him in any more conversations. [Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;] "Gophgetter" has gotten far more than just one or two "admonitions" from the brethren and he still persists with his false doctrine and heresy.

I shall have more to say about Eternal Salvation and Eternal Security in a later "Thread", until then I will make this observation about the kooks, Sophists, blasphemers, heretics and reprobates that have shown up on this Forum. They ALWAYS come with a personal "agenda", which means that they will have to post several "Threads" (Not Posts) in a short time in order to get across their perverse ideas. I have been a member of this Forum for nearly 7 Months (approximately 25 weeks) During that time I have posted seven (7) "Threads". "Gophgetter" has been a member of this Forum for a little over 2 weeks and he has already posted five (5) "Threads". (The more "Threads" in a short time is a sure "sign" of one of the above offenders).

Check out some of the other "old-timers" on this Forum and you will see that they are here to "edify" and be "edified". They are not here just to generate controversy, strife, and debate, and you can usually tell that by the number of "Threads" they have posted (over several months) that they are not trying to "dominate" the Forum, but are looking to edify and be edified. There are some really knowledgeable brethren on this Forum, most of whom are also striving to obey God's word. However, there are also some people who have not been saved for very long (and who may not be "grounded" in the faith) and we cannot allow "false doctrines" or "Heresies" to go unchallenged (for their benefit and edification). It is our duty to earnestly contend for the faith when those who would subvert and pervert God's Holy words join this Forum.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

very well put George!

God Bless you.

You get me wrong pbiwolski. I am slowly opening up to some of the dispensational teachings. What you fail to get about me is that I don't like being force fed. I like people who have a spirit of humilty who guide people to the answers so that they get the feeling of coming upon the answers themselves, instead of being told "these are the answers, believe or you're a heretic." Another thing you fail to realize about me is that I come from an Anabaptist background (Mennonite, Amish, Hutterite, Dunkard etc), and we generally don't agree with dispensationalism, and some more so than others. We've heard you guys throw your teachings down our throats before, and even though some of what you guys teach is indeed correct, we feel that there are errors in your so called "right" divisions (and we are not the only ones to have heard the teachings and to not agree). So, please, keep these things in mind when I voice my disagreement with some of the things being taught. Please don't assume that I've just arbitrarily decided against dispensationalism, and also grant me a little grace as I seek what you guys teach from those who don't have the "convert or take down" mentality.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

My dear Stephanos,

nobody was force feeding you. I mearly tried to answer a question of Gophgetter's, by first giving some exapmles on how to rightly divide. No one was twisting your arm you by your own free will looked at the post.

I simply showed how we rightly divided and showed by right division what the answers were. no one said beleive or your a heretic. no one in any way was throwing things down your thoat. there you go again interpreting with your ego and bitterness instead of reading the posts in grace.

no one in anyway is trying to convert you. I mean those of us who rightly divide are plain Christians trying to live the life God wants us to by the strength of the Holy Ghost. We share what we learned so others may grow to. If you are in error we are to tell you so and that is Biblical.

Do you like Charels Spergeon?

Spergeon said, He who does not borrow from the brains of others proves that he has not brains of his own.

Re: "gophgetter" & Heresy
 

Re: "gophgetter" & Heresy

Aloha all,

I haven’t finished my reply to “gophgetter’s” blasphemous heresy. I did a study on the subject of Eternal Salvation (Everlasting Life & Eternal Security) years ago, but upon review (a further search of the Scriptures), I have discovered far more verses than the 300 verses that I found in support of the doctrine of ETERNAL Security which I discovered in my first study. It may take a while to finish the study, but in the mean time I have found an excellent essay by Charles Spurgeon in regards to the subject. [underlines are mine - G.A.]

As far as I know, this is the first time I have posted something on this Forum that is not my own. I hesitate to cite anyone or anything other than the Holy Bible, but this small essay is so appropriate that I hope you will forbare. :)

From Charles Spurgeon’s Morning and Evening:

Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.

“God’s altar was built of unhewn stones, that no trace of human skill or labor might be seen upon it. Human wisdom delights to trim and arrange the doctrines of the cross into a system more artificial and more congenial with the depraved tastes of fallen nature; instead, however, of improving the gospel, carnal wisdom pollutes it, until it becomes another gospel, and not the truth of God at all. All alterations and amendments of the Lord’s own word are defilements and pollutions. The proud heart of man is very anxious to have a hand in the justification of the soul before God; preparations for Christ are dreamed of, humblings and repentings are trusted in, good works are cried up, natural ability is much vaunted, and by all means, the attempt is made to lift up human tools upon the divine altar.”

“It were well if sinners would remember that so far from perfecting the Saviour’s work, their Lord alone must be exalted in the work of the atonement, and not a single mark of man’s chisel or hammer will be endured. There is an inherent blasphemy in seeking to add to what Christ Jesus in His dying moments declared to finished, or to improve that in which the Lord Jehovah finds perfect satisfaction. Trembling sinner, away with thy tools, and fall upon thy knees in humble supplication; and accept the Lord Jesus to be the altar of thine atonement and rest in Him alone.”

“Many professors may take warning from this morning’s text as to the doctrines which they believe. There is among Christians far too much inclination to square and reconcile the truths of revelation; this is a form of irreverence and unbelief, let us strive against it and receive truth as we find it; rejoicing that the doctrines of the Word are unhewn stones, and so are all the more fit to build an altar for the Lord.”

Here is one of the reason we find so many arguments about what the Bile teaches.

Thaks George that was a nice reading.

Brother George,

This post was not addressed to me but it was directed at me, so I would like to answer some of these accusations. You said that my first thread was "Who was the first one to teach once saved, always saved?". This is not true. My first thread was "Peculairities of the Bible" posted on 8-06-08. My second thread was "As the days of Noah were" posted on 8-09-08. "Who was the first one to teach Once saved, always saved" (my third thread) was posted on 8-10-08.

I don't know if you realize it or not but you are contradicting your self in the same post. First you say that I am calling you a false prophet, then you say that I'm not "man" enough to own up and call you a false prophet. Make up your mind brother. Which way is it?

As far as calling you a "kid", I apologized for this on the thread "Who was the first to teach once saved, always saved" on post #9. I also explained the situation that was going on at the time that influenced me to use that phrase. Let me be straight with you. I have offered my apology to you. If you can not find it in your heart to forgive me, then according to Jesus Himself, you are not forgiven.

Matt. 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

You said that I am clearly a heretick and you lumped me in with reprobates and blasphemers. You also said that it is your duty to contend for the faith. If this is true, then you should have no problem answering the following questions. If I am a heretick, that means that I have said things that do not line up with sound doctrine, in other words, the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. I have posted these questions before but never got a straight answer. But since you obviously have the truth, you should be able to handle them. Here we go.

Question 1

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Is this verse written to believers? If so, why is Paul warning those who are saved and secure about the consequences of living after the flesh?

Question 2

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Is this verse written to believers? If so, why is James instructing believers to receive the engrafted word that is able to save their soul if their soul is already saved?

Question 3

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Is James addressing believers in the church? If so, why would he use the words "save a soul from death" if a believer has eternal life and can never lose it?

Question 4

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Is this written to believers who are saved? If so, why would Peter instruct us to make our calling and election sure, if it is already sure and we can do nothing to influence it, positive or negative?

Question 5

Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Who are these sayings addressed to? Do they apply to us? If so, at what time? Before we get saved or after? What if we hold unforgiveness in our heart towards someone until the day we die? Can we really make heaven our home with unforgiven sin?

Here's the challenge George. If you cannot answer these questions directly and give scripture to support what you say, you have no right to call me a heretick or reprobate. If you can't answer these questions, then quit whining and hurling out unsupported accusations. I'm here because I love the truth. Not to debate with you. Debate is a work of the flesh and I am not here to glorify the flesh. I am here to glorify God and His word.

Peace

Hi Gophgetter, I will try to post this with more grace than I have done so previously.

You said above that you challenge us to find anything you saidthat does not line up with Jesus and the Apostles. If by that, you mean Jesus and the 12, then you'd be absolutely right. If the Books of the NT went like this

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Hebrews, James... etc etc

Then you would be absolutely right.

However, you are forgetting to rightly divide. The mystery of the revelation was given to Paul. His teaching is for this mystery age. The church age was not known about before Christ came. The doctrines for this age are within the Pauline epistles.

I noticed you quote Romans 8. That's true. If you live by the flesh, ye shall die. Then what? Die and go to hell? It doesn't say that. It just says die. Just like if ye live according to the spirit, ye shall live. Where? Here... on earth. Paul doesn't mention eternal life 5 verses either side. He mentions sonship, adoption. The entire chapter is on becoming more Christ-like in His power and faith, but there is no loss of salvation here.

The other verses you quote result in error because you have wrongly divided.

EDIT: It seems that whereever you have seen the word death, you think eternity in hell.

I hope Gophgetter wont mind my answering the same questions he asked Geo. I am not answering for George. but the answers are really clear to us who rightly divide.

Answer to Question 1: Paul was speaking to believer that they would indeed suffer early physical death if they continued in fleahly lusts and sins. see his teaching in 1 Corinthians 11:28-30 "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. they were in unconfessed and repented sinful activities and were taking the Lord cup in vain". All these are under the Gospel of Grace.

Answer to Question 2: James is speaking to beleivers under the Kingdom gospel in the preparation for the Kingdom in early acts and the Great Tribulation. during which time faith must have works the Kingdom Gospel. James big theme. .

Answer to Question 3: In the Kingdom is was the same as if a watchman failed to warn a person he was resposible for that mans blood with his own life. read Jerimiah. Even in this dispensation or age we should do our best to reach people with the Gospel. the you shall save a soul from death statement, well even James knew only Christ saves. but it is the duty of believer in that Age to help one another to live right because if they didn't have the works to prove their faith they were not going to heaven. again they are under the Kingdom Gospel found in the Gospel preparation for the kingdom that is at hand, and the tribulation.

Answer to Question 4: Peter is talking to beleivers under the Kingdom Gospel of faith plus works again like questions 1 and 2.

Answer to Questin 5: 1) we should as Christians strive to be at peace with all men. 2) we are commanded to forgive men as God has forgiven us for Christs sake. 3) unforgiveness will not keep any one in this age or dispensation from being saved seeing that is secured in Christ work not ours. Matthew falls under the Kingdom Gospel and need works to accompany faith. A teaching that is preparing the Jews-Hebrews-Israelites for the Kingdom Promise to David.

Learnig a proper way to rightly divide will clear up a whole lot of confusion in your teachings/sharings/understandings etc...
As George had shown in another post there are three application to all scripture but they can only fall under one of them, Historical, Spiritual, and Doctrinal. by learning which of your verse falls under for this age will help also clear up your confusion.

Aloha brother Luke,

I am "done" with "gophgetter". He cannot "bait" me with his Sophisticated questions or arguments. The man is not only a heretic - he is also a "Sophist" (the two usually go hand-in-hand).

However, I do appreciate you "answering" for me - since you were "dead-on" in your analysis. Have you ever considered this though? It is quite clear from "gophgetter's" Threads and Posts that he cannot "rightly divide the word of truth" and he refuses to receive instruction. Proverbs 15:32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding. If God isn't giving him understanding, do you think that any of us on this Forum can? :confused: I trow not!

Aloha brother Chette,

Please feel free to "answer for me" any time! I'm "finished" with "gophgetter" (it is impossible to "reason" with a sophist or a heretic).

Your answers to his juvenile challenge and questions were both succinct and appropriate. After dealing with "his kind" for 50 years, I have learned to cease striving and just avoid him (them). :(

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Proverbs 12:1 Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Amen Brother George, this is the best way. I see nothing that you need forgiveness for.
God Bless

PS I have been gleaming over your study on the heart on your site, only had a quick look but I must say I am looking forward to reading more.

In My Saviour's name , The LORD Jesus Christ.

Chette,

You said that the death that Paul was speaking of in Rom. 8:13 was speaking of physical death if they continued in fleshly lusts and sins. If he is speaking of physical death then he is also speaking of physical life when he said "but if you, through the Spirit, do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live". Do you really believe that Paul is teaching those in the church at Rome that they can live forever in the flesh? Paul is speaking of eternal life just as he is referring to eternal death if those believers live after the flesh. Why would Paul be warning them about physical death as a consequence, since all human beings face physical death, saved or unsaved? You can add the word "early" if you want to, but that is not rightly dividing the word, it is adding to the word.

Let me deal with your answers to questions #2,#3 and #4 together. You speak of a Gospel of Grace and a Kingdom Gospel. In other words, according to you, there are two different gospels. I don't know what book you got this from, but this idea is not found in the scriptures. There is not a gospel for the Jews and another gospel for the Gentiles. There is only one gospel. There is only one faith. The Gospel is the same for the Jew and Gentile. Consider the following verses.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

You will notice that even us Gentiles are built upon the foundation of the 12 apostles and the prophets. So much for this idea that the 12 apostles teachings were for the Jews and Paul's teachings were for the Gentiles. Do you guys actually believe that Paul's teachings contradict the 12 apostles teachings? Where you got this from, I have no idea, but one thing I do know. You didn't get it from the Bible. Chette, you have not answered these questions, you have explained them away. Why is it that when people who believe "once saved, always saved" are confronted with a scripture that clearly goes against this doctrine, they have to get their dictionaries, commentaries and books to explain these verses and call it "rightly dividing the word of truth"? But when you ask these same people about their favorite verses that they quote so often, they will tell you these verses mean exactly what they say. Sounds like convenient reasoning to me, not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Peace