He's no longer "with us."

John Hinton, complementary to Thomas Strouse
 

LOL, okay I thought it was a little quiet in here... :usa2:

On the whole "author of confusion" issue, I have a little thought that not many people have cared for, but it makes a whole lot of sense.

Mr. Banned-pants said that God "Authored" the confusion at Babel. Well, I didn't see God WRITE anything there, and since "author" by definition (not consistently throughout Scripture, though) means to "write" something, God doesn't "write" confusion. Of course the modern perversion morons don't like that, since that means their myriad perversions don't have God's power on them, since they're so utterly "confusing."

Excellent points to ponder. I am beginning to see it clearly. Thank you, Steven!

Shalom,

Tandi

I must kindly disagree with you. When I am on this forum I use the KJV only. I must use some other versions here to show you how it was interpreted by others. The KJV is not wrong but easily misunderstood here. I will not use any AT Bibles. I will only use TR versions.

Psa 12:6 The wordes of the Lorde are pure wordes, as the siluer, tried in a fornace of earth, fined seuen folde.
Psa 12:7 Thou wilt keepe them, O Lord: thou wilt preserue him from this generation for euer. -Geneva

Psa 12:6 The wordes of God be wordes pure, as the siluer tryed in a furnace of earth: and purified seuen times.
Psa 12:7 [Wherfore] thou wylt kepe the godly, O God: thou wylt preserue euery one of them from this generation for euer. -Bishops

Both of these say the same thing as thier meaning, so does the KJV. It is simply miss read do to the working that the translators chose.

God Bless!

That's fine, however: your only argument offered is that an inferior translation agrees with your reading. When sticking to the superior KJV, and examining the plain English, as well as the doctrinal ramifications, it's clear to me that the other translations are simply wrong. Of course, this is the 87th post and still nothing new is being said. :rolleyes:

I think you would be hard pressed to prove that the Bibles I quoted are inferior. :jaw: (no reason to use this guy but I could not resist.)

Their incorrect translation of this verse proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt!

The older English translations are inferior to the KJV for all of the reasons that the KJV was commissioned for. You may wish to examine http://av1611.com/kjbp for some more background on the KJV and translations of the Bible.

I think we deserve better than this
 

This is classic circular reasoning combined with begging the question. Can't you come up with anything better for an argument? I think we deserve better than this.

Solabiblia,

You have been on this Forum for less than a week and you are DEMANDING something "better than this" (from the "FORUM ADMINISTRATOR" - No Less? :eek:

Take some time and read through the HUNDREDS of Posts (& Threads) on the issue of WHICH BIBLE before you make your juvenile comments!:(

What is it with you anyway? This is an "AV1611 Forum" after all" - Why are you here If you don't like or agree with us? There are plenty of other "religious" forums on the net that you should feel right at home at.

It's a free country (for a little while longer) believe what you will, but don't make childish demands on us - we don't owe you any answers when you approach us with "attitude"! :(

Psalm 12
 

Right on, Brandon. I totally agree.

Will K

Hm.

There are dozens of posts in this very thread alone that explain why only the reading in the KJV can be correct so the "begged question" has been answered already. There's nothing circular about pointing out that a translation that disagrees with the KJV translation in this case is inferior. The correct reading has already been proved here, so it can easily be used as a standard by which to judge other translations.

Now, to the rest of your message:

1. I'm not sure what it is you think you "deserve" from me. I am not in any way in your debt and I am not the type of person who responds positively to presumption on my time and will. You can take or leave what I say but I don't owe you anything.

2. This thread has over 90 posts in it now. This website (start at http://av1611.com/kjbp ) has tons of articles and more than one of them on this very passage. This forum has close to 15,000 posts. If you think you deserve (whatever that means) more than one argument, there is plenty here for your perusal.

I have yet to see one post that proves the KJV is superior to the Geneva or any other Bible of that time period. I am certainly no critic to the KJV. It is an outstanding Bible but I see no true argument against that which I posted. The KJV agrees with the Geneva and Bishops. It is easily misunderstood. That was my point. Hammer it if you like but you have little proof on this and I have other translation taken from the same text to back me up.

Keep in mind that most KJVOs are hardcore individuals and mean well. There is, however, usually no way of changing thier minds or expecting a straight answer sometimes. If they have a good answer they are swift to give it. If they do not have a good answer they are gruff and sometimes very rude. They are good people though. They can have a love for God and feel they are doing His service by fighting those who disagree with them so gruffly.

And we keep this joker around because why? :tsk:

The statement follows verse SIX, not verse FIVE. To say that verse SEVEN is talking about verse FIVE and not verse SIX is STUPID because that is a grammatical ERROR to do something so ignorant.

I hugged my wife.
I killed a man.
They put me in jail.

In effect, you're saying that they put me in jail for hugging my wife. That's the ludicrous ignorance that you're pushing here, and I'm flat tired of it, as are all the people that actually BELIEVE THE BIBLE. You don't believe the Bible, we understand; but go to a forum where you can talk with other apostates who believe like you do. You'll be much happier there, trust me.

LOL, well I've been taking a look at your past posts, and I'm starting to get a picture of exactly what YOU think about the Bible... I guess most CBDs like yourself are softcore individuals who wouldn't know truth from a shadow, as shown by your reply to Brother Tim below back in October... :cool:

These are your words from your silly thread here:
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=649

Just today, you have attempted to cast MORE doubt on God's KJV, by starting a new thread here:
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=917

And I think showing a little more of your leaven will put everything in perspective for the readers:

So there it is, like a dead fish on the beach.
No wonder you have a problem with preservation.
You appear to be just another confused Bible denier who thinks there is no such thing as an inerrant Bible on Earth. Your comments do nothing to build this forum, I am surprised they are allowed to remain here, since I'm afraid your views are part of the problem, not the solution. Old news. :cool:

Wow, quite a discussion. I have a family member who does not believe the KJB to be the Word of God, and come to realize you cannot really reason with these people.

I got saved when I was a young boy, but did not live in a Christian home. I was kind of on my own. But I wanted to know God's word. I had an Aunt who sent me a Revised Standard Version I believe (it was many years ago, I am not absolutely sure of the version). I would read it for hours every day and tried as best I could to understand it. But I was constantly troubled by all the footnotes that said things like "better manuscripts omit this verse" and so forth. Man, I hated that. I wanted to know the truth. I wanted to know God's word. I used to pray and pray for God to show me the truth. Then one day I read Matthew 4:4:

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

That was it! I saw the word EVERY.

Jesus was saying that we must live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Now think about it, would it be fair for God to demand that we live by every word that proceedeth out of his mouth, and then not give us every word?

Would it? Would that be a kind and loving God? Would God put us here in a world of confusion and give us no way to find him?

And then, if we did not find this truth, sentence us to Hell?

No way. I knew right then and there that God's true word was out there for me to find. If God expects and wants me to live by every word that proceedeth from his mouth, then I knew he provided that word for me.

And God did provide his Word to me. It is the King James Bible. Yessiree, I am one of those dreaded KJBO or KJVO or whatever you call it. That's why I came to this forum, I tried a few others where there were all the elite intellectual types trying to disprove God's Word. They have their reward coming to them. These folks do not believe God's Word, they are full of pride, they think themselves more intelligent than simple folks like me who take God at his word. Their only motive is to try to prove to you that they more intelligent than us. FOOLS!

Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

You aren't going to get anywhere with these folks.

And that fellow who keeps writing about the poor doesn't understand his Bible. He also takes those verses out of context.

Matthew 26:7 There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.
8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?
9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.
10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.
11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

Jesus was not promising to preserve or keep the poor from generation to generation here. The disciples wanted to sell the ointment and give it to the poor. Jesus pointed out that he would be put to death in a short time, he would not be among them any longer, but the poor would always be around.

And God does not have to preserve the poor. There are many reasons for poverty. In this country most (but not all) are poor because they fail to work or save, or spend their money foolishly. Now, I know there are many who are poor because of sickness and even financial hardships not caused by themselves, but most of the poor are poor because of their own doings. We see immigrants who come here without a penny in their pocket and in a few short years are wealthy. So, in America anyway, there is no real reason to be poor. Other countries? Yes, war and corrupt govenments impoverish many.

But, I'm getting off the subject. Jesus was simply stating a FACT. The poor will always be here. He did not say "I will preserve the poor" or "I will keep the poor". This fellow is taking these verses completely out of context.

I am personally not too keen on elitist intellectual types. I believe in good old common sense. It is pretty easy to see where all these elitist folks are taking the economy right now. Yep, PhDs from Harvard and Yale, and they run a company into the ground. I am no scholar, but I have supported a family for many years and am not in debt whatsoever. These companies should hire some blue-collar types to run their companies, then maybe they would be making a profit. :)

Re: " Psalm 12:7 - the Promise of Preservation"
 

Aloha brother Winman,

Amen brother, I'm with you all the way! :amen:

These "intellectual", "pious", sweet talking "Christians" are the CURSE of Christianity! :eek:

They always appear (on the surface) to be so sweeeet :love: - but underneath that "slick veneer" is a gnat straining, camel swallowing, insincere hypocrite that has no more interest in the TRUTH, than the brightest Humanistic College professor you will meet on any Godless College Campus in America!

Have you ever wondered WHY they come on this Forum? {I have.} I have never had the desire to go on the dozens of so-called "bible" forums out there that don't profess to believe in any BOOK on earth being their "FINAL AUTHORITY"! I wouldn't be caught DEAD on those kind of Forums - would you? Then WHY do they come here? Hmmmm? :confused:

What is there about real Bible believers that just drives these guys bonkers? If they don't want to believe what we believe why do they bother with us?

I don't go on their forums and harass them! I don't seek out Bible "deniers" on those other forums and start an argument with them over their beliefs! I don't join their forums and agree to abide by their rules and then seek out (by subtefruge) brethren just to have a "debate" with them! I don't go on their forums and "insult" them! ("NICELY" :cool: - OF COURSE! No crude, coarse, or rough language for them - Oh No! Everything said has to be "couched" in a feigned, flattering, effeminate, clever, and P.C. manner - NO "PLAIN TALK" for them!)

WHY can't they just leave "sleeping dogs lie"? I believe I have the answer. They just can't stand that there are some Christians that are willing to take a stand on the Holy words of God; that there are some Christians that are willing to go outside of the camp and bear the "reproach of Christ" [Hebrews 13:13]; that there are some Christians that are willing to be labeled backward, ignorant, uneducated, illiterate, etc.; that there are some Christians that "embarass" them because they (genuine Bible believers) don't believe what they believe and are unwilling to "go along to get along" with "the pack" to keep the peace.

That is they cannot stand that we proclaim to the world (and to the "Christian" Bible "deniers") that we have a Book, the King James Bible, that is Holy, pure, and without error and that IT is our "FINAL AUTHORITY" in all matters of faith and practice!

They can't stand the fact that we WILL NOT FOLLOW THEM OR THE MEN THAT THEY ARE FOLLOWING, and so they must try at least, to talk us out of our faith in God's word and in God's PROMISE TO KEEP HIS WORDS!

We are an "embarrassment" to the whole "Christian" Academic establishment, and we must be stopped at all costs - just because they don't believe what we believe. Have you ever encountered such an INTOLERANT & BIGOTED ATTITUDE amongst Christians as that?

You can spot these charlatans a mile away by their sweeet demeanor; by their "enticing words of man's wisdom" [1Corinthians 2:4]; by their "good words and fair speeches" that are meant to "deceive the hearts of the simple" [Romans 16:18];

God's word has a commandment for us - that we are to follow when we encounter these kind of "Christian Skeptics":

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

I always do! I don't waste my time {or God's} once I discover WHO I am dealing with. :eek:

AMEN Bro. George! Let 'em have it!

:ban:

Amen Brother George!

Years ago I learned a valuable lesson. I used to go soul-winning on Saturday's with my pastor. I think he was the most godly man I've ever known, a terrific person, and smart too.

I remember one day we stopped at this house and a 30'ish lady invited us in. My pastor sat down with the lady and opened the Bible to show her verses on salvation. I sat quietly and observed. My job was to take care of kids and especially dogs. I used to laugh, my pastor said dogs worked for Satan, they will always try to distract you when leading someone to the Lord. :)

Anyway, no dogs or kids this day, but as my pastor showed the lady verses, a couple of times she said, "well, I don't believe that". Suddenly my pastor closed his Bible, stood up and very kindly thanked her for inviting us in. I was confused, because he had stopped short of leading her to the Lord.

When we got back out to the car, I asked my pastor why we had left so suddenly and why he hadn't tried to lead her to the Lord.

He said, "Didn't you hear her? She said she didn't believe the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible you cannot be saved."

He used to also say, "Those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still."

I learned something important that day. You are just wasting your time trying to talk to people who do not believe the Bible. The best you can do is pray for them that the Lord will open their eyes and mind to believe.

And of course, the Lord said,

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

These folks simply do not believe God's word.

Re:"Psalm 12:7 - the Promise of Preservation"
 

Aloha brother Winman,

Your Pastor sounds like a very wise man!

I have never heard: "Those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still"; but I have believed that for about 40 years now, and I intend to use what he said, because I have never heard it said so succinctly.

Back in 1969-1972, I once was largely responsible for convincing an Independent Baptist Church on Kauai about the King James Bible being God's Final Authority and that statement was written into the "Constitution and By-Laws of the church. Within 3 short years (after Bob Jones University graduates came and joined the church) most of the people abandoned their "belief" in THE BOOK" and have been on a down-hill slide ever since.:eek:

That sure was a blow to my PRIDE, but I learned a huge lesson from that incident. You can't "force" people to genuinely believe anything, and you can't (on your own) "persuade" people to believe something.

If the belief does not come from an individual's own heart, it's NOT REAL GENUINE BELIEF! It's an assent, or an acceptance, or an acknowledgment, or an occurence (with the mind - NOT the heart) to someone's ideas or someone Else's beliefs - but it's NOT TRUE BELIEF!

Keep up the good fight brother, it's really good to have you on board. :wave:

I was not aware that I was unhappy here. I enjoy reading the posts here. I may not agree but I grew up with the same beliefs you have for the most part. My parents are KJVO and I was until about a year ago. I understand the idea of preservation and I think there are better verses to try to prove it. I may not believe the Bible is preserved on earth but have nothing against those who do. I was not aware I was an apostate but thanks for pointing that out. I am glad to see you are throwing some punches at me after I did not insult or attack you in any way. Way to show a Christ-like attitude...:boxing:

Wow! I am not sure to people checking into me like this. It does not bother me though. I stand by all my previous posts.

Shadows are dark shadows created by light and an object blocking the light. Truth is something that is correct opposite of a lie or error. I do not, however, know what a CBD is.

I believe Jesus is the Word and He is in Heaven. I even have two verses to back my point. I am no Bible "denier".

They let me remain here because I do not name call or try to stir up trouble. Besides, if I was not here to challenge points then who would you have to criticize?

Thank you! I have never been called a "elitist intellectual" before. I guess there is a first time for everything.

Just a Thought

I wasn't necessarily speaking of you personally as an intellectual.

You say Jesus is the Word and he is in Heaven. I agree.

But look what Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3:13

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Now, here was Jesus talking with Nicodemus face to face. And Jesus was clearly speaking of himself when he said "the Son of man". Then Jesus says that he is in heaven at that very moment (present tense).

How do you explain that? You do not seem to be able to believe that God's Word can be both in Heaven and on Earth at the same time, but Jesus said it was so.

AMEN BROTHER!

Unbelief is the bane of Christianity! Shine the Glorious Light of Truth (Jn. 17:17) and the rats scatter.

Here's something else for the apostates to choke on: Jesus Christ is called the Word of God; why? If God has a written word, why would Jesus need to be called the Word? Come on, hit 'em where it hurts!

Oh, there's more.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

A CBD is a "Confused Bible Denier."
I don't use it a lot, but it seems to fit when people like yourself come on here and start throwing around labels like "KJVO," back in post no. 95. One label deserves another.

And I'm sorry my friend, but you have already proven yourself to be a Bible denier, by spreading the false teaching that God's inerrant Word is not preserved on paper today in the KJV, and we do not know which manuscripts are correct. You not only deny the preservation of scripture, you are projecting your views as if they are FACT, as shown below in your own blunt statements. What else can we call you, a KJV DEFENDER? Come on now...

I'm not attacking you, and I hope you see fit to rise above your confusion, but let's be honest---you have positioned yourself on the opposite side of the very heart of this forum. That's not a good place to be, if you expect people to take you seriously.

I agree that Jesus can be both in Heaven and on earth at the same time. He is omnipresent but I do not agree with the Word on man made paper and man made ink is Jesus. He is the Word but we can not create Him. I have heard that the KJV is a living, breathing book. It is not only the Word of God but it is God. I can not agree with this if that is where you are going with this.

I was not aware that being called a KJVO was an insult! I claimed that label proudly for over 15 years or more. It has no slander to the title. If I were to call you a KJV extremist or something like that I could see you being unhappy about that. I am certainly not here to name call. The name you have labeld me with is slander but I am not offended easily so I will move on.

Well, you are right I am not a KJV defender but I do promote the KJV. I believe it to be a very accurate translation. I find it rather odd that many people here find me so offensive on the issue. I read the Geneva and Tynsdale NT. Some of which the KJV was taken from. There are plenty of other Bible topics other than the KJV but here you are a heretic if you don't agree with KJVO'ism. I was not aware this was what Christianity was based on.

I have to have everyone elses views to be taken seriously? That would make for a shallow wolrd if everyone had to conform to someones beliefs. I am glad God gave us freedom of choice.

Well in your case it was packaged with a stereotypical wrapping and a judgmental ribbon, I don't think I was the only one to pick up on it, here are your words:

"Keep in mind that most KJVOs are hardcore individuals and mean well. There is, however, usually no way of changing thier minds or expecting a straight answer sometimes. If they have a good answer they are swift to give it. If they do not have a good answer they are gruff and sometimes very rude."

But how is it slander, when you indeed deny the nature of the Bible?
You deny the KJV is the INERRANT Word of God, do you not?
You deny the Word of God is PRESERVED ON EARTH, do you not?
You deny the Word of God is EXISTS ON PAPER, do you not?
Answer me straightly, or correct me if I am wrong about your doctrine, please.
You deny the very essence of the Bible, the nature of the Bible itself, thus it seems to me you are a Bible denier, and your rhetorical questions strike me as less than sincere. :cool:

Really?
How can you say that, when everyone can see you already stated,
"we do not know which manuscripts are right."

If you have no idea which manuscripts are right, you have no idea which Bible is right. Sorry, but you nailed yourself to the wall on this, and you keep pushing it. :rolleyes:

Well faith comes from hearing the Word of God, (Romans 10:17) so yes, it is very important that we identify and clarify exactly what that is. God did give us freedom of choice, but there is still only one way to Heaven and we have no other choices about that! But you wouldn't be able to agree, since you have no idea if any of the manuscripts are right, and the only Word of God is in heaven! I hope you can see my point, it's the 800 lb. gorilla sitting in the corner of your room. :rolleyes:

This is true in a lot of ways. I am sorry I stereo typed all KJVO's. This was my bad and I appologize. I did not mean to put it that way. I said it since the other poster was being slapped around. I still should not have stereo typed this way. It was not done on purpose. Again, I appologize.

You are correct on all three but this does not make me a Bible corrector in any way. Still even if you feel that this is correcting the Bible it is still slander. You are implying that I am correcting God and this is not the case.

I do stand up for the KJV. You have those who attack the KJV for being old and hard to understand. I find this argument poor. I do feel there are some parts that can be difficult to understand but not most of it. I also grew up with it. I may not be TRO but I am not ATO either. I use the Tynsdale NT, Geneva, KJV, and NKJV mostly. As you can see for the most part I use the TR. If I was so against it why would I use it? I wouldn't.

True...

Not true...you see, I compare scripture with scripture. I also pray the Holy Spirit will guide me. The Bible teaches salvation by grace through faith plus none minus none. This is very clear through the whole Bible.

In case you are wondering if I am saved or not, I am. I accept Christ as my Saviour when I was 6 years old. I say this because of your last paragraph. I am not sure if you were implying I am not saved or if you were trying to shoot down the lie that the KJV can not be understood today. The KJV can be understood and I agree with you.

The Word is Jesus which we agree on. I can not say that I completely agree with the rest but I do follow what you are saying. The problem with KJVOs as well as any other belief or denomination is that just because many people fall under the same name. My point, my family is KJVO and thier belief is having the KJV in hand is basically like holding Jesus in thier hand. Not every KJVO believes this but some do.

God Bless!

Hmmm, no... I am suggesting you are a Bible DENIER, not corrector.
Thank you for admitting that I am correct on all three above, and be advised; the only slander being done here is YOUR slander against the Bible. I realize this is not a church, but just for perspective I can tell you at my church, any person who denies the Word of God EXISTS ON PAPER would never be allowed a position of leadership or teaching, nor would they be given a free platform to address the body with that doctrine. Yes, it's that serious. This is not a "grey area" like the Gap Theory or what have you. This is important.

No one is angry at you here, (as your poll suggests) but you started all this yourself, and sooner or later, all Bible deniers on this forum end up exposed, with their puppet strings revealed in the light of the truth. The members of this forum are serious about the Bible, and as long as you project your leaven as outlined in the denials above, you will never be taken serious on this subject of Biblical authority. Please understand, it just won't fly here. You need to pray about this and repent of your attitude about God's Word. Read through the material posted on this site and ask God's Spirit to create a change in your heart, I wish you the best as you seek His truth on this issue.

I don't feel like a hard core KJVO. But by faith and personal experience I believe the KJV is far more superior than any edition since 1890.

Rashi on Psalm 12
 

Rashi on Psalm 12:7 - Midrash on Psalms
 

Rashi on Psalm 12:7b