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atlas 09-13-2008 03:04 PM

The Gap Fact or Theory
 
The Gap Fact or Theory

Quote:

Gen. 1:1

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Quote:

Matt. 19:4

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
When is the beginning?

Quote:

Gen. 1:1

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Quote:

Mark 10:6

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Jesus is saying he made man " at the beginning " and " from the beginning of the creation. "

We have man showing up in Gen. 1: 26 & 27 a few days later. Days " evening and the morning " it always says " evening and the morning. "

Now this tells me that Adam and Eve both were made right at the start, right in the beginning. He made man " from the beginning of the creation. " That makes me want to look at Gen. 1:1. What else could you call Gen 1:1 but " the beginning of the creation? " That was the start of creation no doubt about it whatsoever. Gen1:1 was the start of it all and Adam and Eve were there very soon. Only a few days out, that can be called " the beginning of the creation. "

He made man when creation took place at the beginning. This is Jesus saying here. He should know he was there.


Quote:

Ex. 20:11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
We also have the six day creation right here in God's top ten list. In 6 days he made the " heaven and earth and all that in them is,. "

I see The Gap as something out of line with all of these Bible verses.


Atlas

peopleoftheway 09-13-2008 03:19 PM

I will leave finding out the answer to that one until I am standing before the LORD in Heaven.:D

Debau 09-13-2008 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway (Post 7663)
I will leave finding out the answer to that one until I am standing before the LORD in Heaven.:D

I think Atlas showed the answer God has already given us in definite terms. I as a child in Christ understand the creation account as given without a gap, which is not a theory, just hypothesis. Surely not law. The gap "theory" is an hypothesis designed to compromise with evolution defending long ages. Having trouble with the first two verses in the Bible portends difficulty in believing the rest.

peopleoftheway 09-13-2008 04:14 PM

I believe in a literal 6 day creation. What I am talking about is what the gap theorists speculate, carbon dating and dinosaurs and the like.

These things about the existence of Dinosaurs are the things that I can settle on having answered in Heaven. I again have not made myself clear on a second post that you have commented on. I will think long and hard before I answer on any post from here on in as I do not wish anyone to suggest that I haven't grasped the 1st 2 verses of the Bible to have trouble with the rest.

Luke 09-13-2008 08:53 PM

There are several gap theories

I take no issue with the Gap theory that Dr Ruckman teaches and believes, a 1000 year gap (to mirror the millennial kingdom at the other end of God's age).

Personally, I don't believe it myself, but see no issue of fellowship with it.

On the other hand, the gap theorists who try to include evolution or something in their theory, and say the gap was millions of years, just annoy me, as they pander to the scientific community.

PB1789 09-13-2008 11:08 PM

Theory.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by atlas (Post 7662)
The Gap Fact or Theory < snipped for brevity >


We also have the six day creation right here in God's top ten list. In 6 days he made the " heaven and earth and all that in them is,. "

I see The Gap as something out of line with all of these Bible verses.


Atlas

Amen! Atlas. Good Points.

As I used to tell the kids in my Jr. High Sunday School Class: If you don't believe what it says in the first verse of God's Word...why believe all the "Precious Promise" verses in the New Testament ..?

stephanos 09-14-2008 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 7679)
There are several gap theories

I take no issue with the Gap theory that Dr Ruckman teaches and believes, a 1000 year gap (to mirror the millennial kingdom at the other end of God's age).

Personally, I don't believe it myself, but see no issue of fellowship with it.

On the other hand, the gap theorists who try to include evolution or something in their theory, and say the gap was millions of years, just annoy me, as they pander to the scientific community.

Amen brother! Did you hear that the Anglican Church is officially apologizing to Charles Darwin! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ars-death.html So much compromise these days.

I, however, believe God.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

atlas 09-14-2008 06:15 PM

Stephanos,


I think they need to offer an apology to God.


Atlas

Biblestudent 09-14-2008 06:29 PM

Hello, Brothers!

I don't believe in what they call the "gap theory" which includes a compromise to evolution. I graduated in a Christian high school and had held in the six-day creation week "without the gap". However, when I went through Bible school and having heard Bible believing teachers from both sides ("anti-gappers" and "pro-gappers"), I have been quite convinced of the gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 as a fact, and I see no compromise to evolution.

Concerning the question, I find David Reagan's articles to be very helpful:


"NOTE: The word beginning does not always refer to the same point in time or even to the same beginning. Here are several specific beginnings. Some are easy to pinpoint; others are not. But they are all a part of God’s truth and they make an interesting study."

http://www.learnthebible.org/genesis_in_the_beginning.htm


"Also, the devil was “a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44) and he “sinneth from the beginning” (1John 3:8). To what beginning does this refer? It must refer to the beginning of the six-day creation. Nothing else makes sense.
However, if there is no gap and the devil was created on the first day of the six days of creation, he must have been created as a sinner and a murderer—since he was these things from the beginning. But this is impossible for two reasons.
  • First, this interpretation would make God the author of sin.
  • Second, the Bible clearly states that the devil was perfect from his creation and that iniquity was not found in him until a later date (see Ezekiel 28:15).
He was perfect at the time of his own creation, but was a murderer and sinner at the time of the beginning or creation as we experience it. Therefore, the devil had to fall in sin somewhere between the time of his creation and the beginning of the world as found in the first chapter of Genesis. Only the gap provides a time for this. There is no other option."
http://www.learnthebible.org/q-a-when-was-satan-created.htm
http://www.learnthebible.org/q-a-satan-vs-lucifer.htm

"I admit that many of the early proponents of the gap compromised with modern science in their beliefs and teachings. They used the gap to explain the geological ages, the fossil record and the existence of dinosaur skeletons. Obviously, this was wrong.
There is no reason to bow to modern science in any of these areas. Creation with apparent age (meaning things looked mature at the time of creation just as Adam was created as a mature adult and not as a baby) and Noah’s flood could easily explain the geological structures as we have them. However, a weak argument in favor of a position is no reason to reject it. The gap I am talking about is not a scientific accommodation but a biblical doctrine. "
http://www.learnthebible.org/gap_or_not.htm (Please see also this article for some explanation concerning Exodus 20:11 and Exodus 31:17)




chette777 09-15-2008 06:48 AM

Please go to doctrine, "why isn't the second day...." thread and lets answer the questions and see if there is room for a gap in time. obviously God is eternal and long before 6,000 years ago God has been at work doing things that the Bible is not very clear on.

by the way not all who beleive in a Gap theory support Evolution. there are some who beleive in a gap and still believe in the six day literal reestablished earth within a firmament with the new creations of sun, moon and stars, fish, Reptiles, birds, animals and man.

Cody1611 09-15-2008 07:36 AM

Has anyone here ever studied Geology? My geology teacher is always bringing up how rocks are millions of years old and all that stuff. Then again, he believes in the big bang theory...lol :rolleyes:

chette777 09-15-2008 09:53 PM

Cody they saw every kind of rock created in 15 minutes of Mount St Helen's eruption. the problem is mans dateing system. often if it says between 6 a 10thousnad years they will had 3 zero's to support their theory

peopleoftheway 09-16-2008 07:04 AM

hey Chette, the few zero's that are added on are similar to the zero's men like to add on to money for the same reason, it makes it much more appealing to accept.

atlas 09-16-2008 09:06 AM

Guys,

I tend to agree with you. They always date every thing as billions of years old. Then say give or take a few hundred million years. You just have to love those ball park estimates. I always find this very funny indeed.


Atlas

Brother Tim 09-16-2008 12:45 PM

The only gap that truly exists concerning Genesis 1 is the gap in the thinking of those who believe in the "gap theory". :rolleyes:

Gord 09-16-2008 02:28 PM

lol, well put Brother Tim. :)

PB1789 09-17-2008 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 7774)
The only gap that truly exists concerning Genesis 1 is the gap in the thinking of those who believe in the "gap theory". :rolleyes:


A M E N !!!

Diligent 09-17-2008 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cody1611 (Post 7734)
Has anyone here ever studied Geology?

This is the problem -- what the world says about geology is irrelevant to Biblical doctrine and history.

That doesn't mean the earth's creation doesn't pre-date Adam's creation by a long span of time -- maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But trying to pander (perfect word) to modern science by "fitting" their mythology into the Bible is coming at it entirely backwards.

Scott Simons 09-19-2008 07:47 PM

Has anyone every heard of Kent Hovind? http://www.drdino.com/index.php

atlas 09-19-2008 08:35 PM

Scott,

Quote:

Has anyone every heard of Kent Hovind?
Yes I know a Kent Hovind, he has done some wonderful work in the past. Sadly he is in prison for the next few years over tax issues. Get any of his information you can, it's all very good information. If he ever starts giving financial planning or tax advice for the hills, or you may end up behind bars like he is.


Atlas

Steve Schwenke 09-19-2008 08:36 PM

To Gap or not to Gap...
 
some of the accusations here are extremely uncharitable and very condescending. It is unbecoming to those of us who really believe the KJB (I don't mean that condescendingly - I am NOT accusing anyone here!)

Someone who accepts a "Gap" to support evolution is in fact a Bible rejector, and should be soundly rebuked. These folks generally believe in the "Day-Age" theory, meaning that the six literal days were not literal 24 hour days, but instead ages.

Dr. Ruckman has never believed evolution (at least AFTER his conversion), has preached against it, debated against evolutionists, has a 5 video set against evolution, and recommends several books from ICR and the like. But he teaches the "GAP." Dake's reference Bible teaches a Gap, as does Larkin. Neither of them accepted evolution.

I do not make the GAP a point of fellowship, since I can see both sides. However, as a child, before I found out about the KJB, I often wondered when and how Satan fell. Once I learned about the Gap - as taught by Bible believers - all of the pieces to my little theological puzzle fell into place. I have never questioned it since. Again, I do not make it a test of fellowship.

There are many good men who believe the Gap, and I believe they are correct. I admit, the Scriptural evidence is scant, but I believe there is sufficient evidence. It is similar to finding scriptural support on the Trinity (Godhead in the AV). By putting several cross-references together, we can see the truth of it. Of course for us as KJV believers, we have the silver bullet in I John 5:7, but everything else has to be pieced together by careful comparison.
I believe this is also the case for the gap, except that there is no SEEMING silver bullet.

Now for all you Anti-gappers, my question is this:
What happened in v. 2, and WHEN did it happen? Before day 1? During day 1? How do we get from v. 1 (creation) to v. 3 (the first day?) From my view, the gap fits very nicely right there in v. 2, and explains a lot of things.
I am not an evolutionist - nor am I in any way seeking for ways to accomodate evolution. I preach against evolution. I have TV broadcasts to prove it.

If you do not want to accept a gap - fine. I have no quarrel with you (as long as you believe that ole' KJB at least!) All you "anti-gappers" should have enough charity and grace to extend the same courtesy to us "pro-gappers."

In Christ,
Steve Schwenke

atlas 09-19-2008 08:56 PM

Steve,

As a fellow Bible believer as well as imported Texan, ( was born and raised in the great state of North Carolina ) I'll do my best to respect you my friend. I know many good men that believe in the gap. I am not one of those good folks. C. I. Scofield, Dr. Ruckman, and Dr. Greg Estep and Dr. Carl T. Lackey just to name a few. All of those men are and were good men of God, and have done far more d works for the Lord than I have ever done. However good Godly men are not 100% perfect. I am opposed the gap for many reasons, all of witch are found in the Bible. You can see my reasons for what I believe and why on the 1st post of this topic. The gap is a side issue, IE: NOT MAJOR LIKE SALAVTION FOR EXAMPLE.

Now I will not divide ( break fellowship ) with others over minor Bible issue like the gap theory. The gap issue is in the Bible, we need to study this issue debate the issue. I also hold to the belief that no one should insult others over minor Bible issues. We do however have liars and apostates on this forum. They do not believe any of us have God's Word. I do not mind calling a spade a spade over a major issue like God's Word.

It is my hope that we and others can debate issues like the gap theory with respect. Even other issues like UFO's, ( taught by Dr. Ruckamn ) giants, unicorns, and dinosaurs in the Bible for example. Folks like my self that love Dr. Ruckman do not agree with him on all of his issues, however we love him. The same can be said for my wife. I do not always agree with her but she is a Godly lady that loves the Lord and I love her very deeply. No one agrees 100% of the time.


Atlas

stephanos 09-19-2008 10:08 PM

I don't think you need a gap to account for the fall of Helel and the angels that followed him. For one thing, are we certain that the heaven that God resides in are included in the 6 day creation?

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


If not, perhaps Helel was ultimately cast into the firmament to keep him from corrupting things further. But this also leaves the question of how Helel (Satan, sorry) came before God in the book of Job. I think perhaps this was the second heaven, but that's just a stretch on my part.

My point is is that one doesn't have to reason around the Scriptures to fit in parts of the Bible we are uncertain of, and certainly not to fit in secular sciences and its theories on the origin of things.

just mytwocents(tm).

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Steve Schwenke 09-20-2008 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 7939)
I don't think you need a gap to account for the fall of Helel and the angels that followed him. For one thing, are we certain that the heaven that God resides in are included in the 6 day creation?
[B]....


My point is is that one doesn't have to reason around the Scriptures to fit in parts of the Bible we are uncertain of, and certainly not to fit in secular sciences and its theories on the origin of things.
just mytwocents(tm).

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Again, the Bible-Believer's view of the Gap (for those who accept it) has absolutely nothing to do with accepting evolution, or attempting to allow for it. Anyone who is familiar with Ruckman, Larkin, et. al. know this. So why bring it up as though we ARE supporting evolution?

As I said before, I do not break fellowship over the Gap discussion. I simply don't appreciate the derogatory tone from some people over it. And I really don't like the insinuation that the Gap - as taught by a Bible Believer - somehow has something to do with accomodating evolution.

In regards to your first line, we won't always understand everything in the Bible, but I know that the Lord never asks us to believe something that is unreasonable. So in a sense, you are correct; yet in another sense you are not. Everything the Lord does has order and sense to it. I have never yet heard anyone who is Anti-Gap give a reasonable, logical explanation for when and how Satan fell. The Gap answers this in a reasonable fashion, without violating any scripture.

In Christ,

stephanos 09-20-2008 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Schwenke (Post 7982)
Again, the Bible-Believer's view of the Gap (for those who accept it) has absolutely nothing to do with accepting evolution, or attempting to allow for it. Anyone who is familiar with Ruckman, Larkin, et. al. know this. So why bring it up as though we ARE supporting evolution?

As I said before, I do not break fellowship over the Gap discussion. I simply don't appreciate the derogatory tone from some people over it. And I really don't like the insinuation that the Gap - as taught by a Bible Believer - somehow has something to do with accomodating evolution.

In regards to your first line, we won't always understand everything in the Bible, but I know that the Lord never asks us to believe something that is unreasonable. So in a sense, you are correct; yet in another sense you are not. Everything the Lord does has order and sense to it. I have never yet heard anyone who is Anti-Gap give a reasonable, logical explanation for when and how Satan fell. The Gap answers this in a reasonable fashion, without violating any scripture.

In Christ,

When God hasn't given us an explicit word on something, please don't reason around the Scriptures in order to make it seem He has. Also, please don't make it appear that we who don't believe the gap theory are unreasonable and unlogical. We simply believe that when God said "In the beginning" means in the beginning of creation by the virtue of the word "created," and that God did all His creating (in regards to the creation we find ourselves in) in 6 days, not 6+x where x is loosely translated as "how ever much time it takes to fit in all these other things we are uncertain about".

Please understand that I do understand why people believe the gap theory. However, I also understand the history of how the gap theory came into being, and for that reason I cannot support it. Also, I do believe that it is solely because of 'accomodation' (of both secular and non-secular theories) that people support the gap theory. This is another reason I do not agree with it. Like you said, this isn't a break fellowship issue, but I do want to be clear that I do not support the gap theory as being the one that states there is a gap of an undefined amount of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. I do believe that God is eternal, and as such He was around before Gen 1:1. I don't know if there is much Scripture to help us to understand the workings of God before He began the creation we all find ourselves in. But I do believe that He was active before Genesis 1:1.

So that's where I stand.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

atlas 09-20-2008 08:16 PM

Steve,

Quote:

I have never yet heard anyone who is Anti-Gap give a reasonable, logical explanation for when and how Satan fell.


I have never heard a reasonable, logical explanation of how or why Satan's fall has anything whatsoever to do with creation. Would you care to give us one?



Atlas

herami 09-20-2008 09:56 PM

The question of the gap in Genesis has always been an intriguing one to me.

Atlas, I think brings up the strongest puzzle to the doctrine - the comparison of Gen 1:1 with Matt 19:4 and Mark 10:6.

I have yet to hear a good answer to that.

Given that perplexity, the gap theory still stands very strong in Scripture. The simple fact of the matter is that there are MANY gaps in Scripture.

A couple of examples would be --

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen. 5:1-3



Only Seth is mentioned as Adam's son. No mention of Cain and Abel whatsoever. God chooses not to mention them. A GAP exists in Genesis 5 that is filled in by looking at OTHER Scripture.

Now all kinds of explanations could be given as to why Cain and Abel are not mentioned in Genesis 5, but whatever the reason may be, there is no getting around the ABSENCE or GAP that exists of Adam's first two sons in that passage.

Another interesting gap is found in Isaiah 61 -

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Isaiah 61:1,2


In Luke 4, Jesus quotes Isaiah 61:1,2, but only quotes the FIRST HALF of verse 2. Then Jesus sits down and proclaims that this scripture has been fulfilled.

The second half of verse 2 is not fulfilled until Jesus comes back.

So in Isaiah 61:1,2 we have the First Coming and Second Coming of Jesus Christ with a GAP of 2,000 years (the dispensation of grace) represented by a comma.


All kinds of gaps such as these can be found in Scripture.

It is entirely plausible that such a gap might exist between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2

atlas 09-20-2008 10:51 PM

Herami,


I know their are gaps in the Bible. That being said I do not believe there is a gap between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2. My reason for this is listed below.


Quote:

Gen. 1:1

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Matt. 19:4

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,


Mark 10:6

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

Ex. 20:11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

All of these verses say it is six days, or that man and woman were made in or at the beginning. The Bible gives the creation of man a few days ( 24 hour days ) from the start most would agree a few days out could still be called at or in the beginning. This is not unreasonable to make this statement if their is a six day creation without a gap. It is very unreasonable if their is a gap of thousands, millions or billions of years.

I do not see how gappers over come all of these Bible verses. I'm not trying to be mean by saying any of this, I'm just trying to make a very valid Biblical point. How can it be a few days if it had a gap of thousands, millions or billions of years. Also notice it always says the evening and morning were day. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th day. This is 24 hour days, no doubt about this any whatsoever. This can not be a thousand year day as some claim

Six 24 hour day creation, no gap. This is the only way any of these Bible verses posted above makes common sense. God wrote the Bible to make common sense for a common man. I think some folks sometimes get a little deep and over look something very common. I have found that in the Bible most of the time the simple answer is the correct answer. I think the case for this can also be made for creation.




Atlas

herami 09-20-2008 11:05 PM

Hi Atlas!

Your point is a very valid one!
I have been looking for an answer to that one point for years and have yet to find one I am satisfied with.

However, I still see some very strong Biblical evidence on the PRO side of the gap argument also.

Right now, my stance on the gap is "it's a strong possibility."

I don't see it as a fact, and I don't see it as completely implausible.

I will be glad to lay down some of the stronger Biblical evidences on the side of the existence of a gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2, if you are interested.

atlas 09-20-2008 11:14 PM

Herami,


I have read most if not all of the pro gap side. Others may not have read the pro gap side of the issue. So I think you need to post it my friend. It will be good for other folks to see both sides of the gap issue. I know the case is made very well for the 6-24 hour day creation. I also know that many good folks are gappers. I just happen not to be one of them. I think you have to over look all of the Bible verses I have posted a gapper.

If you will can you also tell me how Lucifer's fall has anything whatsoever to do with creation? That would be nice. Most tend to dodge this question for some reason.


Atlas

herami 09-21-2008 12:12 AM

Hey Atlas,

I appreciate your approach and attitude in discussion of controversies such as this.

In presenting some of the stronger Biblical support, I'd like to start with a question, if I may, Atlas.

What method did God use to create the world?

stephanos 09-21-2008 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herami (Post 8017)
What method did God use to create the world?

He used a 25ft Stanley FatMax tape measure; I know for certain...

*sigh* 2 Timothy 2:23

Stephen

Scott Simons 09-21-2008 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlas (Post 8016)
Herami,


I have read most if not all of the pro gap side. Others may not have read the pro gap side of the issue. So I think you need to post it my friend. It will be good for other folks to see both sides of the gap issue. I know the case is made very well for the 6-24 hour day creation. I also know that many good folks are gappers. I just happen not to be one of them. I think you have to over look all of the Bible verses I have posted a gapper.

If you will can you also tell me how Lucifer's fall has anything whatsoever to do with creation? That would be nice. Most tend to dodge this question for some reason.


Atlas

Good job Atlas, I like Peter Ruckman, but on this one he is totally wrong, and that is about the only major thing I can think of, for him. The gap position in just plain and simply against what the bible says, you have to twist logic and understanding english into a contorted confuted thought.
Gap is wrong and if you want to believe it go ahead but you better not try to teach in the church I go to.

herami 09-21-2008 05:56 AM

The Gap Fact or Theory
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 8018)
He used a 25ft Stanley FatMax tape measure; I know for certain...

:) Well, not quite.

God created by His word that went forth from His mouth!

We see the words "and God said..." over and over in the creation account.

Compare that fact with this -

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11


God said His word does not return VOID.

Look at Genesis 1:2 -

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

If God created the world by His word, and God's word doesn't return VOID, then something happened between Gen 1:1 and Gen. 1:2.

Note the elements present in this Genesis 1:2-
- earth without form and void.
- darkness

These are not elements of CREATION.
They are elements of DESTRUCTION.

By comparing Scripture with Scripture, we might find out what's going on in Genesis 1:2.

"Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled : suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment." Jer 4:20

Jeremiah is giving a prophecy of future DESTRUCTION.
Take a look at how he describes it -

"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void ; and the heavens, and they had no light." Jer. 4:23

Jeremiah's description of the FUTURE fits Moses' description of the PAST in Gen. 1:2 perfectly.
-earth without form and void
- darkness

What is darkness an indication of in your Bible?
Remember 1 John 1:5?

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Scripture seems to strongly indicate that something happened between Genesis 1:1 & Genesis 1:2.

Like I said, I am not fully convinced of the gap theory, but I dare not brush it away as nonsense either.


I will post more when I have more time.

Steve Schwenke 09-21-2008 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlas (Post 7997)
Steve,





I have never heard a reasonable, logical explanation of how or why Satan's fall has anything whatsoever to do with creation. Would you care to give us one?



Atlas

Ok then, when did he fall? How does verse 2 fit into the creation? So God's original creation (v. 2) was void? Where did those waters come from? Verse 3 gives us the first day, but verse 2 is not part of verse 3, so far as I can tell.

Steve Schwenke 09-21-2008 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 7989)
...
Please understand that I do understand why people believe the gap theory. However, I also understand the history of how the gap theory came into being, and for that reason I cannot support it. Also, I do believe that it is solely because of 'accomodation' (of both secular and non-secular theories) that people support the gap theory. ...
So that's where I stand.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

David Walker has demonstrated in his book on Dispensationalism that many different believers have accepted a gap long before Darwin came along. I ask you, what exactly am I accomodating? I have repeatedly stated that I do not accept evolution - in any form. The "anti-gap" theologians have used this tactic to put mud on those of us who believe it - the old "guilt by association" trick. This does not make it true.

I believe that v. 3-31 are literal 24 hour days - six of them. On the 7th 24 hour day, the Lord rested.
So your verses using the phrase "in the beginning" simply mean "in the beginning" of this current system.
Your verses about Adam and Eve are irrelevent to this discussion - they were created on the sixth day, which is not "at the beginning" - six days into a project is not "at the beginning." Thus the phrase is a reference to the beginning of the population. Also, there is no record that Eve was created on the same day as Adam - is it not possible that she was created after the original (re)creation week? We don't know - the Scripture is not clear on this. All we know is that she was created AFTER Adam.
So, two of the references you used to prove "in the beginning" are really proving "in the beginning of the human race", not "in the very beginning of the creation week (i.e. the first day.) Since we don't know exactly when Eve was created, it would be hard to apply those verses to Genesis 1:1.

In Christ,

chette777 09-21-2008 07:37 AM

Steve,

Check out the Thread

Why isn't the Second day of Creation said to be good?

atlas 09-21-2008 11:32 AM

Steve,

As always I ask the question.

Quote:

I have never heard a reasonable, logical explanation of how or why Satan's fall has anything whatsoever to do with creation.
You come back with questions about the fall, as everyone else dose.

Quote:

Ok then, when did he fall?
Can you show me one place in creation where the name of Satan is even mentioned? Satan had absolutely nothing to do with creation whatsoever.

Can you also tell me what this verse is saying?

Quote:

Gen. 20:11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is,...
I can tell you what it is saying. Their was a 6 day creation. The heaven and earth and everything that is in them was made in those 6 days.

Was Satan ever in the heaven or the earth? If so he was made in one of those six days. As was everything else that has ever been in heaven or the earth.

How do you deal with this simple plain verse that deals with a 6 day of creation and what was created? This is the real question here. Did not God give the 10 commandments to Moses with his spoken Word, IE: The very mouth of God? The verse I am quoting came from the very mouth of God himself.


Quote:

Gen. 20:11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is,...


Atlas

herami 09-21-2008 12:10 PM

Hi Atlas!

The wording in Exodus 20:11 is very important in the King James Bible.
(The beauty is in the details!)

Our King James Bible is AMAZING in its accuracy and its ABSOLUTELY CORRECT use of words.

Going back to Genesis 1:1 we find something astounding.
Check it out -

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen. 1:1

In Genesis 1:1, God says that he created the heaven and the earth.

God does not use the word "created" again until we get to the WHALES in Genesis 1:21. [The whale must have been created for some special purpose, eh? (Jonah?!) ]


Instead, we see the word "made" used -

"...God made the firmament..."
"...God made two great lights..."
"...he made the stars also..."


To MAKE something is to form something out of already existing matter.
To CREATE something is to cause something into being out of nothing.



Look at what we find when we get to man -

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 1:26,27

We find that God both MADE man (God formed man out of the dust of the earth) and CREATED man (God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.)

Now look at the incredibly accurate wording of Exodus 20:11 in our King James Bible -

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20:11

Exodus 20:11 does NOT match Genesis 1:1.
It matches Genesis 1:3-31

Steve Schwenke 09-21-2008 12:59 PM

Thank you Herami for your response.

Atlas, I believe that when God re-created everything, that it was in done in 6 literal days. I just don't believe that v. 3 is a continuation of v. 1-2. So the verses you quoted in 1:20 are accurate - the things described from v. 3 and following were created in 6 days.

v. 2 simply does not fit with v. 1 and then vs 3ff. As was pointed out earlier, Darkness and Void seem to indicate a cataclysmic destruction of something that was there. Then vs 3 and following show the recreation, which took place in 6 literal 24 hour days.

In Christ,


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