AV1611 Bible Forum Archive

AV1611 Bible Forum Archive (https://av1611.com/forums/index.php)
-   Doctrine (https://av1611.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Jesus-is-lord.com and Loss of Salvation (https://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359)

Luke 07-01-2008 02:30 AM

Jesus-is-lord.com and Loss of Salvation
 
Despite sister Tracy's claims to be a Bible Believer, here she goes and completely turns God's grace into something it isn't

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/walkaway.htm (apparently you can lose your salvation according to her).

Also, here is another heretical page

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/lordship.htm

In it she says that you can't be saved without complete surrender to Jesus Christ. On the site, she gives a definition of antinomian

ANTINO'MIAN, n. One of a sect who maintain, that, under the gospel dispensation, the law is of no use or obligation; or who hold doctrines which supersede the necessity of good works and a virtuous life. This sect originated with John Agricola about the year 1538.

While that is a right definition, Bible Believers and Non-Lordship People (Charles Ryrie, Charles Stanley for example) do not fall into that category. No free grace advocate I know of will exclude good moral behaviour from the christian life. Nor will they exclude the law from salvation, because the Law LEADS us to Christ (it is a schoolmaster!). What they will claim, and is true, is that good works and morals do not contribute to salvation, or even prove salvation.

The Lordship Salvation groups takes the opposite stand, and if you read that article, you will see that Tracy teaches none other than a works based gospel, and this is evident in her outstanding support for Charles G Finney, on her other website "oldlandmarks.com"

Sister Tracy accuses Bible Believers of believing something that they do not. Be warned about Jesus-is-lord.com

Jesus-is-savior.com is a much better site, but not without it's own pecularities.

God bless
Luke

Paladin54 07-02-2008 07:22 PM

Yes, Luke,
It was jesus-is-lord.com that made me a AV defender, and while she has some great articles and some amazing links...she is very wrong in several places. Her article "Can a Man Walk away from Jesus?" is a perfect example. When i was curious about the Calvinism debate, I curiously posted that article on this site, which brother Atlas simply destroyed, along with several others here. Since Tracy had been right so many times before, I was inclined to believe her, but she was plain wrong here.


I'm impressed, Brother Luke, by your zeal to defeat those of the Lordship Salvation movement, and you have a good reason to do so that I do not think others can possess. Well done.

stephanos 07-03-2008 11:48 PM

The Scriptures speak for themselves concerning Jesus Christ as both Lord and Saviour. I don't need to waste my time (again) on this subject. The Scriptures will defend themselves.

Concerning loosing ones salvation, no one, I repeat no one has been able to completely prove to me that it is impossible to loose ones salvation. I've heard all the calvinist rhetoric before and it doesn't hold up in light of ALL the Scriptures.

To be honest I'm not sure why you antinomians want to pervert the Gospel of Peace into a gospel of freedom to sin without consequence. I assure you that this was NEVER the gospel Paul taught...

Concerning the link to the JIL page. I'm not quite sure why there is confusion and turning away from it. 90% of it is Scripture. Does Scripture not speak for itself?

Luke, can you at least answer this question?. Can a Christian's name be removed from the Book of Life? Think carefully how you answer this question. What you say could take away from what is written in Revelation. I didn't want to lead you into this, but you've left me no choice.

Righteousness MUST stand!

btw - Jesus-is-Saviour is so Calvinist it is almost rediculous. Not only is it blatant Calvinism, it's also a blatant rip off of JIL, and I... I don't have the time to get into this. I could spend all night talking about JIS, but I won't. Some people need another go through in their Bibles...

a fool for the Lord Jesus Christ,
Stephen

chette777 07-04-2008 05:06 AM

Stephanos please be graceful in your statements. it is not just Calvenist who believe in eternal salvation. that doctrine is very well established in scriputre as well. I am not a Calvinist, nor a hyper-dispensationalist. please don't assume you are talking to them here. there are some but most of us are not.

Remember Jesus is said the be the author of eternal salvation. that scripture alone holds a lot of wieght. Hebrews 5:9

None of us beleive we have a lisence to sin because we are eternally saved. Grace gives us the power to say no to sin, not live in sin. And I assure you this, you are by no means sinless yourself. So what sin will it take to lose your salvation?

A saved individual may sin and not lose his salvation (you look to yourself as internal evidence for this). that is what 1 John 1:9 is for. if a person says they are saved continue to sin and be in wickedness and bitternes like Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8, i would have to say they are not saved. Simon believed and was baptized but he never received the Holy Ghost. he tried to buy the free gift.

the Holy Ghost is given freely in every dispensation. In the past it was always removed when God was finished using those whom he had given it, and it was only for a purpose of service to God. Only in ours is The Holy Ghost to live the Christ like life in us because it is impossible for us to do. in the Millennial the Holy Ghost is given to put the Laws on their hearts (Israel only) so they can keep the law and ordinances to serve God. He does not help them keep the law. we are an unique creation in Christ called the New Creation, the New Man and we are eternaly saved by the one who saved us.

ask the question why did they have to lay hands on the people in Samaria to receive the Holy Ghost? (if you find the answer you will be surprised because it has nothing to do with receiveing the Holy Ghost at all.) Paul needed it too in Acts 9 and other than John the Baptist's 12 disciples Paul never laid hands on any one to receive the Holy Ghost. When one has the Holy Ghost one is saved and it can't be removed because in this dispensation it is the sign or earnest of your redemption of the purchased possesion.

We been through this before, but the removal of the name in the lambs book of life in Revelation is for another dispensation or division of Time, the Great Tribulation (dividing the Word of truth iliminates any confusion as to eternal salvation). In the Great Tribulation there is no salvation by grace through faith alone. that method of salvation is removed with Christ's body, and reverts back to one of Law of Israel. So their salvation is not just faith they must add works with their faith. and if they do bad works they can have their names removed. so it is not talking about a Christian in Revelation it is speaking of a person who will be a subject in a kingdom. they are not part of the Body of Christ, that is finished before the Great Tribulation.

stephanos 07-04-2008 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 6009)
Stephanos please be graceful in your statements. it is not just Calvenist who believe in eternal salvation. that doctrine is very well established in scriputre as well. I am not a Calvinist, nor a hyper-dispensationalist. please don't assume you are talking to them here. there are some but most of us are not.

Remember Jesus is said the be the author of eternal salvation. that scripture alone holds a lot of wieght. Hebrews 5:9

None of us beleive we have a lisence to sin because we are eternally saved. Grace gives us the power to say no to sin, not live in sin. And I assure you this, you are by no means sinless yourself. So what sin will it take to lose your salvation?

A saved individual may sin and not lose his salvation (you look to yourself as internal evidence for this). that is what 1 John 1:9 is for. if a person says they are saved continue to sin and be in wickedness and bitternes like Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8, i would have to say they are not saved. Simon believed and was baptized but he never received the Holy Ghost. he tried to buy the free gift.

the Holy Ghost is given freely in every dispensation. In the past it was always removed when God was finished using those whom he had given it, and it was only for a purpose of service to God. Only in ours is The Holy Ghost to live the Christ like life in us because it is impossible for us to do. in the Millennial the Holy Ghost is given to put the Laws on their hearts (Israel only) so they can keep the law and ordinances to serve God. He does not help them keep the law. we are an unique creation in Christ called the New Creation, the New Man and we are eternaly saved by the one who saved us.

ask the question why did they have to lay hands on the people in Samaria to receive the Holy Ghost? (if you find the answer you will be surprised because it has nothing to do with receiveing the Holy Ghost at all.) Paul needed it too in Acts 9 and other than John the Baptist's 12 disciples Paul never laid hands on any one to receive the Holy Ghost. When one has the Holy Ghost one is saved and it can't be removed because in this dispensation it is the sign or earnest of your redemption of the purchased possesion.

We been through this before, but the removal of the name in the lambs book of life in Revelation is for another dispensation or division of Time, the Great Tribulation (dividing the Word of truth iliminates any confusion as to eternal salvation). In the Great Tribulation there is no salvation by grace through faith alone. that method of salvation is removed with Christ's body, and reverts back to one of Law of Israel. So their salvation is not just faith they must add works with their faith. and if they do bad works they can have their names removed. so it is not talking about a Christian in Revelation it is speaking of a person who will be a subject in a kingdom. they are not part of the Body of Christ, that is finished before the Great Tribulation.

I don't believe as you do about Salvation changing in your so called dispensations, as we've been through before. Concerning loosing ones salvation, I still think it is possible for one to excersice their free will and choose not to make Christ Jesus their Lord and Saviour. I know some may say that they never had salvation, and therefore could not loose it. I can't speak against that myself, only God can say with all certainty if someone was His or wasn't. What I can say is that I know people that in no uncertain terms was a Christian in faith, and practice, and now denies Jesus Christ and all notions of a creator and doesn't want to have any part in our blessed hope. It is my belief that this person failed the one condition upon which our salvation rests: faith on Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


I think sometimes I'm not getting through with what I believe. I do believe that it is by faith on Jesus Christ ALONE that saves us, but where I part from most of you is that I believe that we are called to good works in Christ Jesus, and that this IS a sign of belonging to Him.

Titus 2:11-15 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Concerning laying on of hands, please explain your take on this further. I've never heard anyone expound upon this before and you've stoked my curiousity.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

chette777 07-05-2008 04:08 AM

Well I haved tried to help you make sense of the Bible you love so much. but you are unwilling to to do. that is why you beleive that someone could lose salvation. Your friend whom you say has stopped being a Christian if he was truly saved he can't unsave himself. he is still saved. if you hold all the scriptures up as you do it will contradict unless you can rightly divide. and put things in order. a good book to read to help on this matter though I don't agree with all their teaching is from some Baptist guy by the name of Stoufer it is entitled "One Book Rightly Divided"

My friend we believe that we are called to good works in Christ Jesus. I never said otherwise. We are called to walk in good works that God has purposed for us to walk in. just that not all believers do that. your friend what caused him to turn his back on Christ?

there are different times in the Bible I don't understand why you don't see them when the Bible clearly teaches them. Are you in the Tribulation now or is it to come? are you in the Millennial Kingdom now or is it to come? those are dispensations or differnt times periods when God deals differently with men. pre flood and post flood are two differnt dispensations. you will notice the different dietary laws given in each one. there are scriputres for each of the periods past and future. all of which are for our learning.

the laying on of hands to the Samaritans has to do with authroity and submission to Jerusalem. Read the history of the Samritans, their origins, their rebellion to Jerusalem, and the setting up of their own temple against Gods clear word not to. Seek the Holy Ghost to teach you and you will have illumination. it is a wonderful experience.

Here is somethings that will help and I know you practice some of them but not all of them, I can tell by your posts. I try to follow these simple rules when studying the Bible. 1) Never add or subtract words to or from the text. 2) Never go to any scholarship where the Bible has already defined the words or terms. 3) Always notice the context. 4) Never begin with obscure verses; always interpret a “cloudy” passage with a clear passage. 5) Always interpret an incomplete statement in the Bible with a complete statement. 6) Always ask who is talking and to whom he is speaking. 7) Always take the plain, literal meaning if possible; if it is impossible, then take the passage figuratively—but only if it’s impossible. 8) In the Bible there are three distinct types of applications: a historical application, a doctrinal application, and a devotional application. 9) rightly divide the word of truth useing the previous 8 rules.

Diligent 07-05-2008 08:27 AM

God has given me the faith of Christ. I only had to believe; now I have Christ's faith. It would be impossible for me to "willingly walk away" from Christ since God gave me the faith of Christ! He is always faithful! Christ's faith works for me. What works of mine would matter?
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
It helps a lot to be able to rightly divide your Bible -- since there are indeed verses that say someone can lose their salvation. But even without understanding the division, no one today should think that the Faith of Christ could be inadequate once given to them. (The people who can "lose it" aren't given the faith of Christ; they have to live by their own faith.)

chette777 07-05-2008 08:33 AM

very good explanation Brandon.
I would have to agree it is Christ's Faith being worked out in our lives and keeps us safe in him.

Brother Tim 07-05-2008 04:50 PM

Brandon, to add to your powerful statement:
Quote:

It would be impossible for me to "willingly walk away" from Christ since God gave me the faith of Christ! He is always faithful! Christ's faith works for me.
is the proof from the Scriptures:
Quote:

If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (II Timothy 2:13)

gophgetter 08-06-2008 06:01 AM

You are leaving out an important part
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 6028)
Brandon, to add to your powerful statement:

is the proof from the Scriptures:

Greetings Brother,

My only concern with your post is that you quote only part of 2 Timothy. You leave out a very important statement by Paul in the previous verse.

2 Tim. 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Here is a question for you. This statement is written to Timothy concerning believers. How can believers "believe not"? Isn't that impossible according to the doctrine of predestination?

Peace

Josh 08-08-2008 12:55 PM

Predestination? Do you mean the Calvinistic heresy that says God created men to send them to hell with no way out?

No, it's not impossible. You can sin, backslide, and yes, even stop believing, but if you're saved then you are SAVED glory to God!

This passage is very simple: "if we deny him, he also will deny us:", this is if we reject the gospel. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before the Father. He that denies Christ is anti-christ. "if we believe not, yet he abideth faithfull: he cannot deny himself.", this means simply if we quit believing, He cannot deny Himself and "unsave" us. We will lose rewards, "but he himself shall be saved".

In Christ,
Josh

peopleoftheway 08-08-2008 01:02 PM

Amen to that Josh!:)

stephanos 08-08-2008 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh (Post 6635)
Predestination? Do you mean the Calvinistic heresy that says God created men to send them to hell with no way out?

No, it's not impossible. You can sin, backslide, and yes, even stop believing, but if you're saved then you are SAVED glory to God!

This passage is very simple: "if we deny him, he also will deny us:", this is if we reject the gospel. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before the Father. He that denies Christ is anti-christ. "if we believe not, yet he abideth faithfull: he cannot deny himself.", this means simply if we quit believing, He cannot deny Himself and "unsave" us. We will lose rewards, "but he himself shall be saved".

In Christ,
Josh

I think you are correct about rejecting the gospel. But I don't think this 'belief' has anything to do with belief in Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour. I just cannot believe Salvation is found in those without faith. Perhaps God's grace is extended to those without faith in Christ Jesus, perhaps not. I will continue to live my life by faith (not just belief) in Christ Jesus.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

chette777 08-09-2008 02:47 AM

the Words Believe and Faith are some what interchangable when it comes to our personal decision on Christ. if you say you have faith in the work of Christ it is the same to say I beleive in the work of Christ. but even in this example faith in Christ is stronger than just beleif. I know people who beleive but have never had faith in Christ.

so faith is the most important factor in our lives. As a saved person whether you live by faith in Christ or you live by belief in Christ you would be saying the same thing.

but what is more important than living by faith, is living in charity. for the Bible tells us that Faith is nothing if we have not charity. this is not about giving gifts to poor lost folks. it is about giving charitable love towards other believers. something I saw and is not preached on in scriptures is the "love of the Spirit" I have heard preaching on the Love of God and the Love of Christ. But I have yet to hear a sermon on the Love of the Spirit. I look forward to that one.

Though I have faith I will choose to live my life in Charitable love with my brethren in Christ and with those of the world in which we live.

gophgetter 08-09-2008 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh (Post 6635)
Predestination? Do you mean the Calvinistic heresy that says God created men to send them to hell with no way out?

No, it's not impossible. You can sin, backslide, and yes, even stop believing, but if you're saved then you are SAVED glory to God!

This passage is very simple: "if we deny him, he also will deny us:", this is if we reject the gospel. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before the Father. He that denies Christ is anti-christ. "if we believe not, yet he abideth faithfull: he cannot deny himself.", this means simply if we quit believing, He cannot deny Himself and "unsave" us. We will lose rewards, "but he himself shall be saved".

In Christ,
Josh

Greetings,

When you say you can stop believing and you are still saved, you are adding words to this verse that are simply not there. If the verse that says "if we deny Him, He will also deny us" was referring to the ungodly that have never been saved, then Paul would not have used the pronouns "we" and "us". Instead he would have used terms like "they" and "them". You will notice that in the same context, Paul says that "if we suffer with him, we shall also reign with him". I hope that we all believe that this a promise to those that Christ is returning for. I have two questions for you about this verse.

Since you believe that the "we" that deny Him is those who have never been saved, what about the "we" in the sentence previous to that? Next question. Why does Paul use the word "if" we suffer with Him, we shall also reign with Him, seeing that this has been already settled when we first got saved? Do we really suffer with Him simply by saying a sinners prayer? Can we backslide, as you say, and really say that we have suffered with Him? Think about it.

Biblestudent 08-10-2008 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gophgetter (Post 6573)

2 Tim. 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Here is a question for you. This statement is written to Timothy concerning believers. How can believers "believe not"? Isn't that impossible according to the doctrine of predestination?

Peace

Who's the WE?

2 Tim. 2:12, WE suffer
WE shall also reign with him
if WE deny him
he also will deny US
2 tIM 2:13 if WE believe not, yet he abideth faithful:

The WE is obviously believers.
BELIEVERS suffer
BELIEVERS shall also reign with him
some BELIEVERS deny him
the Lord will deny some BELIEVERS the reign (see context)
some BELIEVERS later "believe not", yet the Lord abideth
faithful to His BELIEVERS.

That's why believers can never be saved by their own faith, for sometimes they "believe not" (doubt,unfaithfulness, faithlessness - just like the prophets, apostles, and early believers). But we are given the FAITH OF CHRIST, which "abideth faithful".

stephanos 08-10-2008 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 6673)
Who's the WE?

2 Tim. 2:12, WE suffer
WE shall also reign with him
if WE deny him
he also will deny US
2 tIM 2:13 if WE believe not, yet he abideth faithful:

The WE is obviously believers.
BELIEVERS suffer
BELIEVERS shall also reign with him
some BELIEVERS deny him
the Lord will deny some BELIEVERS the reign (see context)
some BELIEVERS later "believe not", yet the Lord abideth
faithful to His BELIEVERS.

That's why believers can never be saved by their own faith, for sometimes they "believe not" (doubt,unfaithfulness, faithlessness - just like the prophets, apostles, and early believers). But we are given the FAITH OF CHRIST, which "abideth faithful".

Why is it then that the unbelievers aren't give the faith of Christ? And why if the devils of hell believe in Christ Jesus that they aren't saved as well?

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Biblestudent 08-11-2008 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 6681)
Why is it then that the unbelievers aren't give the faith of Christ? And why if the devils of hell believe in Christ Jesus that they aren't saved as well?

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Unbelievers were not given the faith of Christ because they did not believe.

What did the devils believe about Christ? That Christ died for the devils' sins? Of course, Christ did not die for devils and devils do not believe that Christ came to save them.

Luke 08-12-2008 11:32 PM

Far out gophgetter. If there is a false prophet in the midst, it is you. I'm not a sissy, so I'll come right out and say it.

If we deny him, he will also deny us. Deny him what? Deny us what?

Suffering and Reigning is the context.

If we do not suffer for him, he will deny us reigning with him. The only time any Christian reigns is during the millennium. 2 Timothy 2:15 - Read it and Eat it.

In Grace ;)
Luke

Luke 08-13-2008 12:13 AM

And Stephanos, Jesus is Savior dot com is not Calvinist AT ALL

Check it out

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/D...vation/toc.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...in_exposed.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...sm/limited.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...ism-hutson.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...hat_a_mess.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False..._calvinism.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books...rcalvinism.htm

And there are another 15 or so on this page if you scroll down to Calvinism. David Stewart couldn't be less of a Calvinist if he tried. He is all about free-will.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False..._doctrines.htm

pbiwolski 08-15-2008 02:02 PM

It sure helps to READ the Bible verse in question before starting with the questions.

Luke and Biblestudent, you guys got it, and it really isn't that hard to get, is it?

gophgetter 08-16-2008 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 6740)
Far out gophgetter. If there is a false prophet in the midst, it is you. I'm not a sissy, so I'll come right out and say it.

If we deny him, he will also deny us. Deny him what? Deny us what?

Suffering and Reigning is the context.

If we do not suffer for him, he will deny us reigning with him. The only time any Christian reigns is during the millennium. 2 Timothy 2:15 - Read it and Eat it.

In Grace ;)
Luke

Greetings Luke,

I can see I have made an enemy without even trying. How can I be a false prophet when all I have done is ask some questions. To be a prophet means to prophesy or preach. Show me where I have been doing this.

Peace

stephanos 08-17-2008 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gophgetter (Post 6798)
Greetings Luke,

I can see I have made an enemy without even trying. How can I be a false prophet when all I have done is ask some questions. To be a prophet means to prophesy or preach. Show me where I have been doing this.

Peace

Man, I'm sorry gophgetter. Some of these folks have forgotten their place. I think some of them have altogether forgotten to read 1 John (really the whole thing). Of all the Christian forums online, this is the one that lacks love more than any of the others i've been to. I only remain here because there are a few smart, and yet humble, brothers who defend the KJB, and occassionally speak on here, and answer questions etc.

Just remember that when dealing with a lot of these baptist types, you have to just be ready for them to go on the offensive about every itsy bitsy little thing they don't agree with (... because thou hast left thy first love?), and cherish the few humble and God fearing among them. I think that a lot of them are so used to being attacked for their stance for the KJB that they remain in that offensive and defensive position towards those that aren't here to attack our cherished Bible. This is just my guess of course.

Anywho, know that you are loved brother. Make yourself at home.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

Luke 08-17-2008 12:33 AM

Gophgetter, you called us all false prophets in a subtil way. Don't go out and feign innocence, when you know full well that you said those that teach eternal security are false prophets.

Biblestudent 08-17-2008 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbiwolski (Post 6788)
It sure helps to READ the Bible verse in question before starting with the questions.

Luke and Biblestudent, you guys got it, and it really isn't that hard to get, is it?

That's right, pbiwolski! Blessed is he that READETH.:)

Stephanos, does John the Baptist have charity in his preaching? What do you think?

stephanos 08-17-2008 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 6810)
That's right, pbiwolski! Blessed is he that READETH.:)

Stephanos, does John the Baptist have charity in his preaching? What do you think?

I understand what you're trying to get at biblestudent. However I'd just like to point out to you that none of you are John the Baptist, and also that there is a season for all things. There is a season for compassion, and a season to save with fear. With wisdom one will know when to use either or.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

1 John 2:9-11 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

John 17:20-23 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Biblestudent 08-17-2008 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 6804)
Of all the Christian forums online, this is the one that lacks love more than any of the others i've been to. I only remain here because there are a few smart, and yet humble, brothers who defend the KJB, and occassionally speak on here, and answer questions etc.
Just remember that when dealing with a lot of these baptist types, you have to just be ready for them to go on the offensive about every itsy bitsy little thing they don't agree with (... because thou hast left thy first love?), and cherish the few humble and God fearing among them.

I asked if you think John the Baptist has charity. Your right in saying a "lot of these baptist types" lacks love, but many of the "lovely types" I know were the Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, etc. etc. I wonder why you're singling out the baptists. (By the way, John the Baptist is the only Baptist in the Bible, and he's not a Baptist like me -- saved by grace.)

stephanos 08-17-2008 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 6821)
I asked if you think John the Baptist has charity. Your right in saying a "lot of these baptist types" lacks love, but many of the "lovely types" I know were the Roman Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, etc. etc. I wonder why you're singling out the baptists. (By the way, John the Baptist is the only Baptist in the Bible, and he's not a Baptist like me -- saved by grace.)

I hate to break it to you biblestudent. John the Baptist is in heaven right now because of his faith in Jesus Christ. Salvation is always by grace, and obedience is our response, whether it was obedience to Torah in the days of the old covenant, or obedience to the commandments given us in the new. There is only one doorway into heaven, that is the person of Jesus Christ.

I think that John had charity, since he loved people enough to tell them the truth. But you want me to think (i'm assuming here) that a lot of the folks I've encountered with this rebuke/admonish mentality are all doing so out of love, which is not true. It takes a wise man to know when to rebuke/admonish and when to use compassion to speak the truth.

You want to know why I singled out baptists, well I think perhaps I misrepresented what I meant. I attend an independant fundamentalist baptist church, and I love these people. It wasn't my intention to grossly generalize, and perhaps I did. If that is the case, then please accept my apology. I truly love the fundamentalist baptists, but the fact of the matter remains, I have been openly attacked (90% of the time by by dispensationalists) by these folks more often than not.. I think this is inapropriate behavior on their part. I've tried really hard to just let their comments pass me by (to turn the other cheek so to speak), but there are those that make this really difficult. I think I would be more open to their teachings if their (this isn't to say all) words and lifestyles were more in line with the teachings of the Lord they profess to serve.

So to finish this off, let me just say that I also agree with you in your observation of Papists, Mormons, and JW's (although not so much with these folks). However, if we fundamentalist independant baptists could somehow find the balance necessary to stand unwaveringly for sound doctrine, while also being a light of love, compassion, peace, and good stewardship, then I believe that more liberals, and non believers would be more inclined to hear what we have to say. I'm not professing that we should be like them in conversation, but that we should reach out to them in <b>love</b>. Knowing how desperate their condition is, and how unlikely they are to hear us if we are constantly pointing the finger. Again, this is also where wisdom is important, in that there are those that simply need a verbal thumping to the head, and then there are those that just need someone to let them know that they are significant in God's eyes, and that they truly are loved.

Anywho, thanks for your time biblestudent.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

gophgetter 08-17-2008 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 6805)
Gophgetter, you called us all false prophets in a subtil way. Don't go out and feign innocence, when you know full well that you said those that teach eternal security are false prophets.

Like I said brother, show me where I have been doing this. I'm waiting.

Peace

Luke 08-18-2008 12:26 AM

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=403

George 08-18-2008 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Luke

Quote:

Far out gophgetter. If there is a false prophet in the midst, it is you. I'm not a sissy, so I'll come right out and say it.

If we deny him, he will also deny us. Deny him what? Deny us what?

Suffering and Reigning is the context.

If we do not suffer for him, he will deny us reigning with him. The only time any Christian reigns is during the millennium. 2 Timothy 2:15 - Read it and Eat it.

In Grace ;)
Luke

Originally Posted by gophgetter
Quote:

Greetings Luke,
I can see I have made an enemy without even trying. How can I be a false prophet when all I have done is ask some questions. To be a prophet means to prophesy or preach. Show me where I have been doing this.
Peace

Originally Posted by gophgetter
Quote:

Like I said brother, show me where I have been doing this. I'm waiting.
Peace

Gophgetter,

Wait no longer - Here is your answer:

In your past post: (Who Was The First One To Teach "Once Saved, Always Saved"?) - You clearly insinuated that we are either "False Prophets" or "False Teachers"; and that the "doctrine" (ETERNAL Salvation) that we believe in is "heresy" and comes from or "originated" with Satan!

Gophgetter quote (2 sentences - a declarative statement & a question):
Quote:

"Just like there were false prophets in the Old Covenant, Peter says there will be false teachers among us. What will be one of the messages ,or damnable heresies, of these false teachers?"
Gophgetter quote (a declarative statement - NOT a question):
Quote:

"Just like there were false prophets in the Old Covenant, Peter says there will be false teachers among us. {???}
You didn't just - "ask some questions" (like you just claimed above!). I didn't see a Question Mark after your declarative statement (Did you?). Who were you referring to when you quote the Apostle Peter {"among us"}? Among WHOM - Hmmm? The "inference" is those of us on the Forum! Who else could you have been referring to? Someone in your neighborhood? Someone in your church? Someone in your Denomination? Someone out there on the NET? Someone out there "SOMEWHERE"? "among us" has to apply to SOMEONE. You were addressing those of us on this Forum - Who did you have in mind, if it wasn't some of us on this Forum?

Not only that, you stated:
Gophgetter quote:
Quote:

"Who was the first one to teach once saved, always saved?" . . . . So with this in mind, let's look in the scriptures and see who was the first one to teach this. Who was the first one to teach that you can have eternal life and never lose it? Are ya ready kids?" . . . . "There you have it. It was none other that the serpent. He was the first one to teach that you can never lose eternal life."
Here are some of the questions you "asked" - to which you gave us your "private opinion" and answered them:

Gophgetter quote (a question):
Quote:

"What will be one of the messages ,or damnable heresies, of these false teachers?"
Gophgetter quote (a question):
Quote:

"Who was the first one to teach once saved, always saved?" . . . . So with this in mind, let's look in the scriptures and see who was the first one to teach this. Who was the first one to teach that you can have eternal life and never lose it? Are ya ready kids? . ."
Gophgetter quote (a declarative statement):
Quote:

". . . There you have it. It was none other that the serpent. He was the first one to teach that you can never lose eternal life."
You didn't just "ask some questions" - You made some declarative statements and accusations!

You can't have it both ways (like all Sophists). Declare for us right now - Are we "False Teachers"? (Most of us teach ETERNAL Salvation). Have we embraced a "damnable heresy"? (Most of us have embraced the doctrine of "ETERNAL Security"). Are we following "that old serpent - the Devil? I trow not! (If we are guilty of these things that you claim, then we are false teachers, heretics, and have been blinded by Satan.) But , on the other hand, if what we believe is true then - you ("Gophgetter") are promoting a "damnable heresy" by inferring that the doctrine of ETERNAL Salvation is NOT from the God of the Bible, but from "the god of this world"! :mad:

chette777 08-18-2008 02:11 AM

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The Bible clearly uses the words Eternal Salvation. and it is God that decalres it so.

Biblestudent 08-18-2008 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 6823)
I think that John had charity, since he loved people enough to tell them the truth. But you want me to think (i'm assuming here) that a lot of the folks I've encountered with this rebuke/admonish mentality are all doing so out of love, which is not true. It takes a wise man to know when to rebuke/admonish and when to use compassion to speak the truth.

You want to know why I singled out baptists, well I think perhaps I misrepresented what I meant. I attend an independant fundamentalist baptist church, and I love these people. It wasn't my intention to grossly generalize, and perhaps I did. If that is the case, then please accept my apology. I truly love the fundamentalist baptists, but the fact of the matter remains, I have been openly attacked (90% of the time by by dispensationalists) by these folks more often than not.. I think this is inapropriate behavior on their part. I've tried really hard to just let their comments pass me by (to turn the other cheek so to speak), but there are those that make this really difficult. I think I would be more open to their teachings if their (this isn't to say all) words and lifestyles were more in line with the teachings of the Lord they profess to serve.

Have not anti-dispensationalists "openly attacked" the dispensationalists 90% of the time, too?

I accept your apology and you are right about the Fundamental Baptists, and unbelievers are right about the Christians. They (Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics, etc. etc.) refuse to believe the TRUTH because true believers lack "charity". My answer to all of them is why do they stay believing in a lie even if those that teach lies are just as inconsistent as real Christians.:confused: (That is, a Baptist going to jail is a big deal; but no one asks how many of the Muslims, Catholics, etc. are in jail.)

Nope. Personally, I don't think that people who will not accept the truth will be convinced even with a consistent lifestyle. Christ did back His words up with His life, but He Himself said only few find the right and narrow way.

I didn't accept dispensationalism because I looked at it as a threat to practical Christian living, not until I realized that you can be a dispensationalist and live a much better life than those who know it or didn't know it. Furthermore, my father once denounced it as a heresy when he heard of "more than one gospels", but later understood that there is more than one gospel in the Bible (ex. Rev 14 - "everlasting gospel" is never about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ), but there is ONLY ONE SAVIOR from eternity to eternity! Of course, there is ONLY ONE GOSPEL that should be preached in this AGE OF GRACE.

I didn't know you were Baptist, so now I understand why you single out the Baptists. It's okay to criticize our own selves to keep us in balance. No problem with me.;)

chette777 08-18-2008 05:12 AM

The reason Stephanos feels attacked is because he has been corrected for some misinterpretations of Scripture and admonished to rightly divide the scriptures in which he was in error (mind you he does have some applicable truths that were good) but he will not do as commanded in Gods word to rightly divide and he has fought against it by attacking those who do. His battle however is not with me or others but with God as he is in disobedience to that portion of scripture that tell him to rightly divide

I too did not beleive that there was more than one Gospel. but then I went through and I found in the Gospels what is taught by Christ in Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. This clearly is not the gosepl of Christ finished work for the forgiveness of sins Because it is Jesus preaching it. NO death on the cross yet nor did he even hint at going to the cross for that reason either.

Then the Gospel Paul teaches is totally different and as you pointed out the Everlasting gospel. which is a different one preached by an angel. Paul said if anyone including an angel would be accursed to preach another Gospel. but that would only apply to the current division of time the Church Age.

the first Gospel of the Kingdom is for Israel to prepare them for the Kingdom and only Jews and their believing proslytes could enter and be saved, the second Gospel of Grace which Paul taught and is for this Age only, is for all men, and the Everlating Gospel is not a gospel of Salvation at all it is simply preparing man for judgement. there is no salvation in the everlasting Gospel.

so in the NT there are three Gospels but you have to rightly divide the scriptures to know where to apply each one and know how it works for that age too.

in most Churches today they blend them all into the gospel of grace. having Adam, Moses and the OT prophets looking forward to the cross (which they were not for no one knew they would crucify the Lord of Glory) and they have everyone after Christ looking back to the cross (that may be true in a sense).

I was raised a Christian (that is after I was born again) to study the Bible inductively and as I did I began to see there were holes in some charismatic teachings, and in some Baptist teachings. I have strove to get to a balance in these by keeping the teaching centered on the Bible. Once I got into a King James Bible alot of things began to fall into place more rapidly.

I love you Stephen. and I wish to see you grow in the word and not be tossed around in weak Bible teaching of other men and women. But rather to see you study the way God wants you too and to see you grow in more grace and the doctrines as the HOLY GHOST guides you in your correct study of Gods word.

Biblestudent 08-18-2008 08:55 AM

Just finished teaching in our Bible school's night class. The students are (or came from these backgrounds) Fundamental Baptist, Southern Baptist, Baptist Brider, Calvinist, and Pentecostalist. But hey! It's not an ecumenical movement. All are united in their desire to know which Bible is the Word of Truth and how to Rightly Divide it!

We discussed "progressive revelation" of the Scripture. We learned that while the Twelve preached a "gospel" in Luke 9:6, they didn't understand and knew nothing about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (Luke 18:34), which (according to Paul) is the gospel for today (1 Cor. 15:1-4). Anybody who doesn't know it had to be lost (2 Cor. 4:3).

If the gospel for today is that Christ died for our sins (1 Cor. 15:3,4),
if that gospel be hidden it is hid to them that are lost (2 Cor. 4:3),
if it was hidden to the Twelve in Luke 18:33-34,
and if the Twelve were preaching a "gospel" in Luke 9:6,
then it's either the Twelve are lost or they were preaching "another gospel which is not another" (Gal. 1:6,7)

gophgetter 08-18-2008 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 6826)

Greetings,

In the post "Who Was The First One To Teach Once Saved, Always Saved", I showed scriptures in the Old and New Covenant where preachers had preached peace and security when the people they were trying to assure of their place in God and were lying to the people. As a matter of fact, I showed through the scriptures that these same false prophets (I didn't say that, the Bible did) were bought by the blood of Christ and yet they were headed for damnation.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

I was using scriptures such as these to show the message of false prophets. I never directed these scriptures at anybody in this group, directly or indirectly. I wish you and I could deal with the scriptures as two mature brethren but it seems that you only deal in accusations, not scripture. When you get ready to dicuss the Bible and not call each other names, let me know.

Peace

gophgetter 08-18-2008 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George (Post 6827)
Originally Posted by Luke

Originally Posted by gophgetter
Originally Posted by gophgetter
Gophgetter,

Wait no longer - Here is your answer:

In your past post: (Who Was The First One To Teach "Once Saved, Always Saved"?) - You clearly insinuated that we are either "False Prophets" or "False Teachers"; and that the "doctrine" (ETERNAL Salvation) that we believe in is "heresy" and comes from or "originated" with Satan!

Gophgetter quote (2 sentences - a declarative statement & a question):
Gophgetter quote (a declarative statement - NOT a question):
You didn't just - "ask some questions" (like you just claimed above!). I didn't see a Question Mark after your declarative statement (Did you?). Who were you referring to when you quote the Apostle Peter {"among us"}? Among WHOM - Hmmm? The "inference" is those of us on the Forum! Who else could you have been referring to? Someone in your neighborhood? Someone in your church? Someone in your Denomination? Someone out there on the NET? Someone out there "SOMEWHERE"? "among us" has to apply to SOMEONE. You were addressing those of us on this Forum - Who did you have in mind, if it wasn't some of us on this Forum?

Not only that, you stated:
Gophgetter quote:
Here are some of the questions you "asked" - to which you gave us your "private opinion" and answered them:

Gophgetter quote (a question):
Gophgetter quote (a question):
Gophgetter quote (a declarative statement):
You didn't just "ask some questions" - You made some declarative statements and accusations!

You can't have it both ways (like all Sophists). Declare for us right now - Are we "False Teachers"? (Most of us teach ETERNAL Salvation). Have we embraced a "damnable heresy"? (Most of us have embraced the doctrine of "ETERNAL Security"). Are we following "that old serpent - the Devil? I trow not! (If we are guilty of these things that you claim, then we are false teachers, heretics, and have been blinded by Satan.) But , on the other hand, if what we believe is true then - you ("Gophgetter") are promoting a "damnable heresy" by inferring that the doctrine of ETERNAL Salvation is NOT from the God of the Bible, but from "the god of this world"! :mad:

Greetings George,

I stand corrected. I did make some statements but they were in another thread, not this one. Deal with the "statements" I made in this thread, not another one. Why are you and Luke hijacking someone else's thread. Deal with the posts on this thread. If you don't like the "statements" in another thread, show some respect and post your complaints in that thread, not someone else"s.

Peace

stephanos 08-18-2008 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 6841)
Just finished teaching in our Bible school's night class. The students are (or came from these backgrounds) Fundamental Baptist, Southern Baptist, Baptist Brider, Calvinist, and Pentecostalist. But hey! It's not an ecumenical movement. All are united in their desire to know which Bible is the Word of Truth and how to Rightly Divide it!

We discussed "progressive revelation" of the Scripture. We learned that while the Twelve preached a "gospel" in Luke 9:6, they didn't understand and knew nothing about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (Luke 18:34), which (according to Paul) is the gospel for today (1 Cor. 15:1-4). Anybody who doesn't know it had to be lost (2 Cor. 4:3).

If the gospel for today is that Christ died for our sins (1 Cor. 15:3,4),
if that gospel be hidden it is hid to them that are lost (2 Cor. 4:3),
if it was hidden to the Twelve in Luke 18:33-34,
and if the Twelve were preaching a "gospel" in Luke 9:6,
then it's either the Twelve are lost or they were preaching "another gospel which is not another" (Gal. 1:6,7)

Yeah, I don't have any issues with this, since it is clear that Jesus' ministry took different directions at different times, but my primary issue is with those that say salvation is sometimes by works rather than by grace through faith. I do believe that at times God required strict obedience to Torah to be a shadow of what was to come in Christ Jesus, however I still believe that salvation then was by faith in the knowledge that God would save His people from their sins. Disobedience prevented the blessings of God, when Israel disobeyed. Just look at Moses for example, he didn't even get to enter the promise land, yet he appeared at the transfiguration with Elijah. So, if salvation was by strict obedience to Law, then why is Moses not in hell?

Numbers 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Matthew 17:1-5 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

I guess that's all I got for now.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

George 08-18-2008 08:46 PM

Gophgetter,

Your quote:
Quote:

Greetings George,

I stand corrected. I did make some statements but they were in another thread, not this one. Deal with the "statements" I made in this thread, not another one. Why are you and Luke hijacking someone else's thread. Deal with the posts on this thread. If you don't like the "statements" in another thread, show some respect and post your complaints in that thread, not someone else"s.

Peace
You still haven't dealt with my original premise, and that which I repeated on this thread:

I believe in Eternal Salvation - Am I a heretic?

I teach Eternal Salvation in church and elsewhere - Am I a false teacher?

I teach that the doctrine of Eternal Security is Biblical truth and originates with the God of Scripture - Am I teaching heresy?

Like you told Luke - "I'm waiting" for your reply! :rolleyes:

Luke 08-18-2008 09:01 PM

Gophgetter, you make a fundamental mistake

No Old Testament Saint had security because no Old Testament Saint was BOUGHT BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

It was not yet shed for them.

Old Testament Saints kept the Law. If they broke the Law, they sacrificed with a repentant heart(which was part of the Law). If they did not sacrifice, they had no covering for sin, and went to hell. If they did, and died covered by a sin COVERING, they died and went to Abraham's Bosom.

Then Jesus died on the cross, descended to the lower parts of the earth, and led captivity captive, and took paradise (Abraham's Bosom) up to Heaven.

No Old Testament Saint was washed in the blood of Jesus Christ until Jesus Christ died for them.

And the Israelites wanted this (Exodus 9 - They could have plead for continued grace that was given to Abraham, but instead, they said "We will do all that you command").


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:54 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.

Website AV1611.Com.
Posts represent only the opinions of users of this forum and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the webmaster.

Software for Believing Bible Study