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-   -   Jesus-is-lord.com and Loss of Salvation (https://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359)

Josh 08-08-2008 12:55 PM

Predestination? Do you mean the Calvinistic heresy that says God created men to send them to hell with no way out?

No, it's not impossible. You can sin, backslide, and yes, even stop believing, but if you're saved then you are SAVED glory to God!

This passage is very simple: "if we deny him, he also will deny us:", this is if we reject the gospel. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before the Father. He that denies Christ is anti-christ. "if we believe not, yet he abideth faithfull: he cannot deny himself.", this means simply if we quit believing, He cannot deny Himself and "unsave" us. We will lose rewards, "but he himself shall be saved".

In Christ,
Josh

peopleoftheway 08-08-2008 01:02 PM

Amen to that Josh!:)

stephanos 08-08-2008 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh (Post 6635)
Predestination? Do you mean the Calvinistic heresy that says God created men to send them to hell with no way out?

No, it's not impossible. You can sin, backslide, and yes, even stop believing, but if you're saved then you are SAVED glory to God!

This passage is very simple: "if we deny him, he also will deny us:", this is if we reject the gospel. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before the Father. He that denies Christ is anti-christ. "if we believe not, yet he abideth faithfull: he cannot deny himself.", this means simply if we quit believing, He cannot deny Himself and "unsave" us. We will lose rewards, "but he himself shall be saved".

In Christ,
Josh

I think you are correct about rejecting the gospel. But I don't think this 'belief' has anything to do with belief in Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour. I just cannot believe Salvation is found in those without faith. Perhaps God's grace is extended to those without faith in Christ Jesus, perhaps not. I will continue to live my life by faith (not just belief) in Christ Jesus.

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

chette777 08-09-2008 02:47 AM

the Words Believe and Faith are some what interchangable when it comes to our personal decision on Christ. if you say you have faith in the work of Christ it is the same to say I beleive in the work of Christ. but even in this example faith in Christ is stronger than just beleif. I know people who beleive but have never had faith in Christ.

so faith is the most important factor in our lives. As a saved person whether you live by faith in Christ or you live by belief in Christ you would be saying the same thing.

but what is more important than living by faith, is living in charity. for the Bible tells us that Faith is nothing if we have not charity. this is not about giving gifts to poor lost folks. it is about giving charitable love towards other believers. something I saw and is not preached on in scriptures is the "love of the Spirit" I have heard preaching on the Love of God and the Love of Christ. But I have yet to hear a sermon on the Love of the Spirit. I look forward to that one.

Though I have faith I will choose to live my life in Charitable love with my brethren in Christ and with those of the world in which we live.

gophgetter 08-09-2008 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh (Post 6635)
Predestination? Do you mean the Calvinistic heresy that says God created men to send them to hell with no way out?

No, it's not impossible. You can sin, backslide, and yes, even stop believing, but if you're saved then you are SAVED glory to God!

This passage is very simple: "if we deny him, he also will deny us:", this is if we reject the gospel. If we deny Christ, He will deny us before the Father. He that denies Christ is anti-christ. "if we believe not, yet he abideth faithfull: he cannot deny himself.", this means simply if we quit believing, He cannot deny Himself and "unsave" us. We will lose rewards, "but he himself shall be saved".

In Christ,
Josh

Greetings,

When you say you can stop believing and you are still saved, you are adding words to this verse that are simply not there. If the verse that says "if we deny Him, He will also deny us" was referring to the ungodly that have never been saved, then Paul would not have used the pronouns "we" and "us". Instead he would have used terms like "they" and "them". You will notice that in the same context, Paul says that "if we suffer with him, we shall also reign with him". I hope that we all believe that this a promise to those that Christ is returning for. I have two questions for you about this verse.

Since you believe that the "we" that deny Him is those who have never been saved, what about the "we" in the sentence previous to that? Next question. Why does Paul use the word "if" we suffer with Him, we shall also reign with Him, seeing that this has been already settled when we first got saved? Do we really suffer with Him simply by saying a sinners prayer? Can we backslide, as you say, and really say that we have suffered with Him? Think about it.

Biblestudent 08-10-2008 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gophgetter (Post 6573)

2 Tim. 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Here is a question for you. This statement is written to Timothy concerning believers. How can believers "believe not"? Isn't that impossible according to the doctrine of predestination?

Peace

Who's the WE?

2 Tim. 2:12, WE suffer
WE shall also reign with him
if WE deny him
he also will deny US
2 tIM 2:13 if WE believe not, yet he abideth faithful:

The WE is obviously believers.
BELIEVERS suffer
BELIEVERS shall also reign with him
some BELIEVERS deny him
the Lord will deny some BELIEVERS the reign (see context)
some BELIEVERS later "believe not", yet the Lord abideth
faithful to His BELIEVERS.

That's why believers can never be saved by their own faith, for sometimes they "believe not" (doubt,unfaithfulness, faithlessness - just like the prophets, apostles, and early believers). But we are given the FAITH OF CHRIST, which "abideth faithful".

stephanos 08-10-2008 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 6673)
Who's the WE?

2 Tim. 2:12, WE suffer
WE shall also reign with him
if WE deny him
he also will deny US
2 tIM 2:13 if WE believe not, yet he abideth faithful:

The WE is obviously believers.
BELIEVERS suffer
BELIEVERS shall also reign with him
some BELIEVERS deny him
the Lord will deny some BELIEVERS the reign (see context)
some BELIEVERS later "believe not", yet the Lord abideth
faithful to His BELIEVERS.

That's why believers can never be saved by their own faith, for sometimes they "believe not" (doubt,unfaithfulness, faithlessness - just like the prophets, apostles, and early believers). But we are given the FAITH OF CHRIST, which "abideth faithful".

Why is it then that the unbelievers aren't give the faith of Christ? And why if the devils of hell believe in Christ Jesus that they aren't saved as well?

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Biblestudent 08-11-2008 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 6681)
Why is it then that the unbelievers aren't give the faith of Christ? And why if the devils of hell believe in Christ Jesus that they aren't saved as well?

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Unbelievers were not given the faith of Christ because they did not believe.

What did the devils believe about Christ? That Christ died for the devils' sins? Of course, Christ did not die for devils and devils do not believe that Christ came to save them.

Luke 08-12-2008 11:32 PM

Far out gophgetter. If there is a false prophet in the midst, it is you. I'm not a sissy, so I'll come right out and say it.

If we deny him, he will also deny us. Deny him what? Deny us what?

Suffering and Reigning is the context.

If we do not suffer for him, he will deny us reigning with him. The only time any Christian reigns is during the millennium. 2 Timothy 2:15 - Read it and Eat it.

In Grace ;)
Luke

Luke 08-13-2008 12:13 AM

And Stephanos, Jesus is Savior dot com is not Calvinist AT ALL

Check it out

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/D...vation/toc.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...in_exposed.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...sm/limited.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...ism-hutson.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...hat_a_mess.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False..._calvinism.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books...rcalvinism.htm

And there are another 15 or so on this page if you scroll down to Calvinism. David Stewart couldn't be less of a Calvinist if he tried. He is all about free-will.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False..._doctrines.htm


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