What are the tabrets and pipes of Ezekiel 28?
 

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. (Ezekiel 28:13-14)

Some commentators say the tabrets and pipes are "the sockets and grooves used as the settings for the precious stones", but most every other place these words are used in the Bible they are referring to musical instruments.

Tabret
Genesis 31:27
1 Samuel 10:5
1 Samuel 18:6
Job 17:6
Isaiah 5:12
Isaiah 24:8
Isaiah 30:32
Jeremiah 31:4
Ezekiel 28:13

Pipes
1 Samuel 10:5
1 Kings 1:40
Isaiah 5:12
Isaiah 30:29
Jeremiah 48:36
Ezekiel 28:13
Matthew 11:17
Luke 7:32
1 Corinthians 14:7
Revelation 18:22

The exception with the pipes would be two verses in Zechariah which talk about the lamp stand.
Zechariah 4:2
Zechariah 4:12

Hi there Brother
The tabrets and pipes in Ezekiel 28:13-14 Refers to musical instruments, satan was created for worship and certainly has musical abilities, refer to the scriptures to back this up
Isaiah14:11-12
"Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols [stringed instruments]: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

We only have to look around us at the music industry and its "Rock and Pop stars" to see how much of an influence satan has on music and its corruption, it is most certainly one of the devils strongest tools to corrupt the Word of God and influence the lost away from Godliness and to place strongholds on them via music.

It also sounds as though Lucifer was created as an organic organ. A living musical instrument. The tabrets and pipes were IN him.

When he fell, perhaps his musical ability was disfigured and hindered, and that is why we have rock and roll and heavy metal and rap music, because it is the sounds that the devil produces from his corrupted body.

That's right, man has only one windpipe, Lucifer had multiple "pipes" created in him, as well as multiple tabrets (small drums/timbrels).

He could well have been the song leader/maker for the "sons of God" choir before man was put on this earth. See Job 1:6; 38:7.

from the loins of Cain comes the first to make musical instruments. Gen 4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

Music is the universal language of emotion. A piece of music that stirs up the emotion of suspense or fear in an English speaker will have the same effect on non-English speakers. That is why, when a movie is dubbed into several different languages, the movie's musical score does not need to be changed to be just as effective.

Of course, the music business is big $$$ and the prices the lawyers charge for use rights are obscene. You are absolutely right; the world system uses music to corrupt and gain riches. Too bad, since music is really a good thing and was originally created for the worship and praise of God.

Remember it is men who attribute the design of Lucifer to music. There is absolutely no Biblical grounds that Lucifer was a heavenly worship leader. the reason the purpose was not mentioned in scriptures is because at no time during this current 24/7TQ did Lucifer lead worship in heaven. We know that the morning stars sang together of which Lucifer would have been one of them and we know he made noise of viols in Isaiah.

the description in Ezekiel is given to show how beautiful and perfect he was until Iniquity was found in him not to describe his past position as a music player. Some of you would judge me for my claims from silence of scriptures then you do the same with these scriptures.

If Lucifer ever did lead worship in heaven is was before the current 24/7TQ not afterwards.

No, I think Ezekiel 28:13 is fairly clear that God created him with organs (plural) within him capable of making music:

Ezekiel 28:13b ...the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Tabrets and pipes are associated with other instruments in scripture, and with song:

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.

Genesis 31:27 Wherefore didst thou flee away secretly, and steal away from me; and didst not tell me, that I might have sent thee away with mirth, and with songs, with tabret, and with harp?

The Biblical grounds have already been posted. If Satan, who is called the "son of the morning" in Isaiah 14:12, was among the "morning" stars singing and sons of God shouting for joy in Job 38:7, then why wouldn't he be leading them, considering his musical abilities and authoritative position revealed throughout the scriptures.

Huh? How does that relate to the OP?

You are something else Chette, you told me to "take a hike" because I disagreed with your Gap Theory (and still do) in your " The Non-Evolutionary Gap Theory" thread, but you try to introduce it in many threads.

These very verses in Ezekiel contradict your theory if you will notice:

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


What is the first thing God tells us here? He tells us that Satan or Lucifer "hast been" (past tense) in Eden, the garden of God.

Now, according to your theory, Satan fell between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. But we know the Garden of Eden was not created until at least the third day when God made the dry land appear, and then caused the earth to bring forth grass, herb yielding seed, and trees yielding fruit.

I think even you would agree that a garden should contain plants.

Then God tells us that Satan or Lucifer was perfect in his ways from the day he was created UNTIL iniquity was found in him.

This contradicts your Gap Theory completely. However, for those of us who believe Satan fell sometime after the 6 day creation (plus the 7th day God rested), there is no contradiction whatsoever. I believe Satan could have been in the Garden of Eden for as long as 100 years before he deceived Eve. That is just a rough estimate based on the births of Cain and Abel, Cain murdering Abel when they were adults (they both had livlihoods) and then Seth being conceived and born after Abel's death when Adam (and Eve) were 130 years old (Gen 5:3)

So, approximately 100 years were available, but Satan could have rebelled anytime after Day 7 until Cain was conceived (after Adam and Eve's fall).

But, back to the subject, I have read these verses before and was amazed to read Satan was covered with these stones, the fact he was also covered with musical instruments escaped me. He must be an extraodinary looking creature.

Five of the stones mentioned are also mentioned in the gates of the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21. Little side-track here, but here is a site that shows the 12 stones mentioned in Rev. 21.

http://www.rivercitylures.50megs.com/njd/ston/ston.htm

I agree with the others, while we cannot know for sure he led the heavenly choir, there is certainly the great possibility that he did, seeing he was "prepared" with these instruments, and his position as one of the highest angels (Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth).

I still have seen no PROOF from the Bible Lucifer ever was a musician, worship leader or anything else. Where are the scriptures to prove Lucifer's "musical abilities"? Isa 5:12 is a very poor text to use to prove anything about Lucifer being a musician seeing it speaks of Israel's rebellion to God. this is one of those places even if you put verses together you can't prove the point at hand.

you are all quick to defend a description interpreted by a man. But where are you Bible proofs that Lucifer ever played any music?

Pipes and Tabrets are also known as plumbing fixtures (pipes connected to valves with a small reservoir) he could be a beautiful walking oil lamp as far as those descriptions go.

Winman,

Day might be a reference to a a descriptive stating point of his origin, not necessarily a specific day like one of the six days you are referring too. Remember in our 24/7Time Quantum or Time Measurement if you like. words like day have to be used that you and I will have a point of understanding. there is no way for us to understand Eternity until we are perfected so God chooses to use words we understand. However that doesn't mean they are all in the same reference to the same thing.

covering like that of a veil, or pan cover, valve cover? it says the cherub that covereth. but never says what he covered. If you can find a Bible verse that shows what it was he covered I would be glad to see it. if you can't find it ask why God didn't tells us what it was he covered?

God's word tells us to rightly divide. divide the scriptures if you will that are pictures of eternity form those of of the 24/7 weeks of man. you will be surprised to discover some interesting facts about those scriptures and the things they describe.

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

The definition of viols is:

1) a skin-bag, jar, pitcher

a) skin-bottle, skin

b) jar, pitcher (earthen)

2) harp, lute, guitar, musical instrument

A skin-bag, jar, or pitcher do not produce noise, so this verse must be referring to a musical instrument.

a tabret is also a drum like seat, a harp is also a seive that separates small particle from larger ones, Pipes are tubes.

While verse 12 speaks specifically of Lucifer the surround verse speak of an earthly king. the verse on Lucifer is mysteriously inserted for us to have a certain truth placed into our understanding concerning him and his power over the world and that in the end no one will fear him.

argue argue argue is it all you know how to do?

Chette

I like sparring with you a little, sure you noticed. :fencing:

Actually, I agree with you to a point. Yes, there are no direct scriptures that say Lucifer played music. However, the original verses (Eze 28:13) questioned here point to musical instruments. Then, when you compare the verse I showed (Isa 14:11) it makes perfect sense.

This would be a case of Occam's Razor which states "the maxim that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity"

What that says is when you have a choice of assumptions, pick the assumption that fits most easily.

So, if Eze 28:11 says Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments, and Isa 14:11 says Lucifer made noise with musical instruments, you have an assumption that fits neatly and does not need any additonal assumptions.

So myself, I believe Lucifer was adorned with musical instruments and played music (or at least made noise) with them.

This idea also has support among other theologians. J. Dwight Pentecost wrote of these verses:

Winman, I find myself agreeing with you on this issue. I have been trying to envision what the Anointed Cherub must have looked like, so I can illustrate him in my movie project. The fact that the Bible verses, and cross references, seem to clearly indicate some kind of built-in musical ability in the creature is certainly something to ponder. My question, at this point, is this: Are we talking about some kind of bag-piped dragon or reptilian like creature, or what?

Good points Bro. Winman. There are some things in scripture that are not clearly defined, and a good sense assumption is what we end up with.

unfortunately it says pipes and tebrets not musical instruments.

Isa 14:11 has more to do with the celebrations of victory of the king of Babylon than it does describing Lucifer's calling to be a worship leader. but where did Lucifer if he was such a beautiful creature pay his pipes and Tabrets? Where are the stones of fire (one of those non existent places)

Esekiel 28 decribe him, it does not say or describe the use of the pipes and tabrets. that is a guess at best.

Geo,

A cherub looks like a Ox and and Ox like a cherub study these verses and their surrounding verses closely.

Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Eze 10:14 And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle.

these are the only two faces that don't match an Ox and a Cherub all others have their match. so a Cherub looks like an ox. large rounded eye, small horns, legs of a calf, and a tail. Hence why some would say the Bible stole its description of Satan from Roman or Greek mythological creature called Pan. but in reality the Bible has always described him as such and mythology borrowed their description of Pan from the Bible.

Once you have this upright Ox Cherub with wings cover him with These stones. they don't have to be whole pieces you can cut and paste them as needed. I am reminded of the different colors certain fish and Birds give off their scales and feathers that reflect blues, greens reds, purples, orange and reds the whole spectrum of the rainbow.

This is what the anointed cherub looked like an OX of many colors

KI,

Why doesn't the Bible go further to describe the use of these Pipes and Tabrets?

Could it be in the 24/7 he has never used them?

I can list you a very long list of things mentioned in the Bible that are not mentioned in detail mainly because such things were created in a different Time measurement or before our current 24/7 time establishment the first day of our six day creation account. they are not detailed because they are not of or for this current TQ.

Things like the wheeled chariot throne of God and full of eyes, the stones of fire, Lucifer's fall, the creation of Seraphim's, Cherub's, and angels. the New Jerusalem, God throne in the North of the North, the Altar, the heavenly tabernacle pattern shown to Moses, Horses upon which Christ and the Saints ride through heaven to earth upon, fire, water, the original earth prior to the six day events, the third heaven. which was the only one heaven of Genesis 1:1 until the firmament was created on day two (the only day not said to be good on that day though its creation is good to serve God's will). And these are only a few things.

I listed all scriptures that have an element outside the 24/7TQ we are in and many things fit in that division. because they are things that were made or existed before the 6 day creation and our current 24/7. it is a two part dispensational division eternity and the 24/7 everything falls into those two areas in Scriptures.

Are you sure it doesn't?

The scriptures posted thus far satisfy me enough to draw some conclusions.

1. When Lucifer was created by God there were tabret[s] and pipe[s] prepared inside him. Ezekiel 28:13

2. Tabrets and pipes are associated with music in scripture. Gen 31:27; 1 Samuel 10:5; 1 Samuel 18:6; Isaiah 24:8; Isaiah 30:32; Isaiah 5:12.

3. "the noise of thy viols" is a clear proof that Lucifer made music. Viols are associated with idol worship in Amos 5:23-26, and chanting in Amos 6:5.

4. Lucifer is called the "son of the morning" in Isaiah 14:12, he (Satan) was among the sons of God in Job 1, it's probable that he was with them also when the foundations of the earth were laid in Job 38:4-7 when the morning stars "sang" together (read: made musick) and the sons of God shouted for joy.

Do you not believe in Satanic music?

Paul said in 2 Corinthians 2:11 "Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."

I believe Satan is very influencial in music within this 24/7TQ. He may not be the one sounding out the music from his inner organs, but certainly him and his devils play a big part inspiring or possessing the musicians of this world to make sounds that glorify the god of this world.

Lets throw a little something else into the Mix here.

Now I know that some agree that tabrets and pipes were literal musical instruments and some agree that they are sockets and settings etc, but why not take the two together, how about the tabrets, pipes, viols are not literal musical instruments embedded into his body but simply a description of his vocal chords. As we know from scripture the devil beguiled eve through his voice with enticing and seducing speech

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
We know from scripture that he will deceive many in the last days

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now none of us can say we have ever heard the heavenly host singing, our feeble unglorified bodies and minds couldn't comprehend the beauty and majesty in the sound they would make. So those who are left under the antichrist rule are going to be so entranced and beguiled as eve was by his seducing speech (vocal Chords).

http://www.voicelessons.com.ar/libra...arynxcutsm.jpg


Look at this section of a vocal Chord, turn it upside down and what instrument does this look like that is used today to create seductive and devilish sounds?

Kiwi you were the one who said the Bible doesn't go further is describing certain things quote "There are some things in scripture that are not clearly defined". in the description of Ezek 28 it doesn't go any further than to describe the beauty of this creation. it never says what the pipe and tabrets are for, everyone assumes they are for music People brought in an interesting thought.

The seven lampstands or candlesticks were made the design of what is known as a Menorah(pron?). these were beaten gold which formed little tubes (pipes) that had branches (pipes with tees) and on them were six on each side and one in the center a bowl shaped like an almond (Tabret-small drum) it would be capped with a small cover with a wick. Oil was placed in the tubes and the wicks would siphon oil to light the lamp. if the oil ran out all wicks went out at the same time.

That's right, it was in relation to what Bro. Winman said about "Occam's Razor." On the other hand, there are many things in scripture not clearly defined in one single verse, but clarity comes when you study the Bible and compare scripture with scripture, as you well know. Hence why I gave you more than just Ezekiel 28.

I saw that in Zechariah 4:2 when I searched for "pipes" in my Bible software. You say the centre bowl is shaped like a "tabret-small drum" yet I can't find where the Bible gives it that description using the word tabret? Every mention of tabret or tabrets I found in scripture is connected with music, same as every mention of the word viol or viols in scripture is connected with music, and we know that Lucifer made noise with his viols in Isaiah 14:11.

So I, and others here, are not just basing this belief on one verse that gives limited information, it's scripture with scripture.

KI,

I was just giving you an example of plumbing of the lamp. I know there are no reference to those words but when you understand all the meanings of the English words then you can have a fuller understanding. a Tabret (in plumbing) is a drum (a bowl)like container generally small not much bigger than your thumb (an Almond) that has a valve connected to the pipe to control the flow. the old oil lamps used in some old Victorian styled houses had these some people even called the Tabret lamps. they were filled via a oil can and the wick was lit to give off light.

My point is there is not proof that he ever played music from the Bible. you can connect all sorts of verse to show they are musical instruments but to claim he was a worship leader in heaven would be a guess at best. so any guess would be a good as another.

and if he did play music when did he? where did he? why? the Bible is silent.

the descriptions in Isaiah are of the King of Babylon and that his music and pomp would not be heard or seen any more when he was brought into the grave where the worm eats his flesh. then mysteriously God inserts the Lucifer notes on his rebellion.

If Lucifer did lead worship he is not now, and he has not been cast into the hell yet. so his music is no longer heard in heaven yet he is still alive. which doesn't match to that of Isaiah14:11

I pointed out if he did it was in a time that had no connection to our present time. there is a difference between eternity and our 24/7 time measurements as mentioned by Peter and the Psalmist. I don't think either were saying that a day is equal to 1,000 years but rather describe in our words of understanding that would convey that God's time measurement is different than ours. So Why would God lets us know so clearly there is a difference in our TQ's? (TQ=time quantum=time measurement)

anyway, I like to bring in to the post a variety of views and understandings on things so we can all think deeper for those things which are revealed are for our learning.

It is ok to stretch your bible a little on issues like this as long as we remember that God and his word has the final say. I learned that from Peter Ruckman

Well, I would like to introduce a new question that has been on my mind.

Has Satan "fallen" yet??

I believe most Christians would say yes, but I am not so sure. Probably the most important verse to support this belief is Luke 10:18

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Is it possible the Lord was speaking of a future event here?

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The reason I ask this (and this is a sincere question) is because Satan still has access to heaven as shown in Job.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

So, it is clearly written here in scripture that Satan has access to heaven, or at least he still had access in the days of Job.

So, I am not asking if Satan sinned, it is clear that in Genesis chapter 3 that Satan is evil, adding to the Word of God and deceiving Eve.

But from what I read, Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven, and will not be so until the end as shown in Revelations chapter 12.

Any opinions on this?

Satan Crawls
 

Has Satan "fallen"? Yes and absolutely yes. Actually, the verse you provide in Luke 10:18 or in Isaiah 14:12 is a clear indication that he was. It all began when Lucifer said "I will" in Isaiah 14:13-14 so that he was fallen and was cast in the first heaven and become "...the prince of the power of the air..." Ephesians 2:2. Now in Job 1:6 we are not sure that God was in His abode when Satan came also. If this is heaven, it might not be the third heaven(God's abode where no sin can enter) but probaly the second heaven. Whilst Satan had to come to present himself before the Lord, the Bible is not definite to where it occur but the best probality, it occur in the second heaven. Again In Revalation 12, Satan was yet to cast down. Accordingly, Satan is to be cast out into the earth. No more he will be called the prince of the power of the air. Again,Satan will lowered in his position. He will now be next crawling into the deep abyss or the bottomless pit.
Has Satan not fallen yet? He has been fallen but not yet into the ground and in the bottomless pit.:flame::angel::crutch:


Jude 25
www.fredsites.weebly.com

I had thought about the second heaven or our atmosphere, but Rev 12:10 seems to point to the third heaven.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This sounds exactly like Job where Satan appears before God in the third heaven.

Heaven where Sun and moon dwelleth
 

Exactly in Revelation 12, the context is well defined that heaven is no more of the third heaven. Notice the following:
1. Revelation 12:1, heaven is where is where the sun, moon and the stars are mention. It is no longer a third heaven as it is supposed to be.
2.Revelation 12:3-4, surely the third heaven is not a home of a dragon so that his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven.

So that the war in heaven is no longer in God's abode. Jesus and the believer will meet in the air during the rapture so that again, God will not let him got a stronghold, so Satan might be fleeing to the second heaven but God will no longer allow such. He will be thrown down into the earth 'till he will be cast into the bottomless pit and Christ will set up his millenial Kingdom.


Jude 25

I agree with you Rev 12:1 mentions the sun, moon, and stars, so this must be the second heaven or outer space.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

So, perhaps when Satan spoke to God in Job, it was in outer space?? But still, it sounds like the 3rd heaven to me.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

I don't know, I really don't picture God sitting in outer space. I know it is completely possible, but I picture God sitting on his throne in the third or highest heaven.

Now I am not questioning the term "fallen" in sense of being sinful, it is obvious Satan is sinful in Genesis chapter 3. No question there.

What I am questioning is his location. Where was Satan? The first heaven (atmosphere), second heaven (outer space), or the third heaven (where God resides)? This is what I mean by "fallen", not talking about sin or iniquity.

Now, if this is so, then isn't Isaiah chapter 14 future?

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

This would not seem to be when I believe Satan rebelled in the Garden of Eden, there really were no "nations" then. And "didst" is past-tense.

And which heaven is Satan falling from here? First Satan says he will exalt his throne above the stars (2nd heaven), then in vs. 14 above the heights of the clouds (1st heaven). It also mentions the mount of the congregation (3rd heaven).

And if Satan is not cast down to the Earth until Revelations 12, then isn't Isaiah 14 future? For it is here that it says he is "cut down to the ground".

And how can we say sin cannot enter heaven when the unjust will be judged before God?

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Here are sinners in heaven. It is after sinners are cast into the lake of fire that no more is sin allowed in heaven.

Neither the Bible in Job 1:6 speaks that God is sitting in His throne. Is God confined only to sitting in His throne? I think, God may Stand as in the case of Apostle Paul that Jesus stands in heaven. He may come down from his place just like our Lord Jesus came into the earth. God is everywhere, He too can go into heart of the earth or "hell". Is this possible? I believe with all my heart that he can. "For with God there is nothing impossible". (Luke 18:27). Of course in Isah 14, he was talking to himself while in heaven, whereas in Job 1:6, he no longer in God's abode. To note, in God's abode(Isah 14) he was named as Lucifer but in Job 1, he was Satan (named after he was cast). The ground refers to the ground of third heaven so that he was cut down, meaning he can no longer enter therin.


Jude 25

Fredoheaven

Yes, I agree with you, God can be everywhere. But that is not the picture a person would get from reading Job without bias.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

This sounds like a very formal affair to me. God did not go to meet the angels, they came to present themselves before the Lord.

This almost sounds like a military inspection to me.

And Satan left God's presence, the Lord did not depart from Satan.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

I think the problem is that everyone assumes that sin cannot enter heaven. But that cannot be so, all sinners will stand before God when he is on the Great White Throne.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

These verses are absolutely speaking of the unsaved (the dead). And they are in heaven, standing before God who is sitting on the great white throne.

It is after Satan, his angels, and the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire that the Bible says no sin shall enter heaven.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I am not trying to cause controversy here, but when I read the scriptures I am told that Satan can still come and go and enter heaven at times, and has not been cast down to the ground yet.

You are correct Fred. this verse is not the third heaven but the second where the Stars are. He is cast down from the third into the second where the firmament encases it. and then eventually he will be cast down to earth and he will draw the stars with him. this is not a past reference to some past event but actually a future event yet to take place. Remember Revelation is a book of prophecy not a narrative of past events.

This earth is where His sin began in eternity past and it will end here. after his eternal death in the lake of fire, then God does away with the first and second Heaven literally abolishing the 24/7TQ and everything enters into Eternity at the end of Rev 20. with a new Earth and heaven in Rev 21.

Seems like Satan has had access to the earth, the first, second and third heaven ever since he fell from perfection.
He's found in a physical embodiment in the Garden of Eden, he's the prince of the power of the air, and he has access to the throne of God.

About this supposed 24h Time Quantum:
by saying that things occured outside time (ie: eternity) according to some other eternal timeline, seems like a contradiction to what eternity is supposed to be.
Eternity shouldn't have a timeline, its outside of time. Its basically a continual state of being. To say that thing A happened before thing B during eternity would have to invent two kinds of time: the time we live in (24/7), a second imaginary time line outside of ours, and then eternity.

That's part of why it makes sense to me that Satan's iniquity was found in him during our 'TQ', in the Garden of Eden, since all of the references to him have a tense to them, and a passage puts him in the Garden before he sinned.

As for the music aspect, I think its very logical and probable that Lucifer was a master musician. Wether one can prove he was the worship leader is inconsequential, for his influence in music today is undeniable, both in secular and Christian genres.

Yes, it is clear to me that Satan is not cast out of heaven until the great tribulation. We know he has access to heaven because Rev 12:10 says he accused the brethren before our God day and night.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And this must be the tribulation period as Rev 12:12-14 shows

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens (plural, which would include the 3rd heaven), and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The time, and times, and half a time are clearly the last 42 months of the great tribulation.

Besides Job, we have other verses showing Satan in heaven.

Zech 1:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4 And he (the LORD) answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Only Jesus has power to forgive sin. This was Jesus in heaven, not outer space.

The argument that this is the 2nd heaven or outer space does not hold water. Revelations 12 clearly shows that Satan was cast out of the 3rd heaven where he accused the brethren before our God day and night, just as Satan was doing in Job and Zechariah.

Yet again, more scripture that contradicts the gap theory that claims Satan fell to earth between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.

But it seems like he has access to all three already. He was indeed on earth a few times:
In the Garden of Eden, before and after his fall;
When the devil tempted Jesus in the wilderness;
Entering into Judas Iscariot Luke 22:3, John 13:27;
Satan himself says he walks to and fro in the earth Job 1:7;
Standing beside Joshua before the angel of the Lord in Zec 3:1;
Jesus called Peter Satan (indwelt?) Matt 16:23, Mark 8:33, Luke 4:8;
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven Luke 10:18.

Then there are the plentious references of him interfering in the things of men, although not locally present on earth per se.

Perhaps his casting out of heaven in Revelation is permanant.


Remember:

Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

that would be special access not unlimited access.

in the second starry heaven and the third he has unlimited access.

He will not stand at the Great White Throne Judgement to make accusations against anyone, Praise God.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God. This is the earth in it's original state before Lucifer's fall where he brought darkness and destruction came upon it with a flood Genesis 1:2. God did later plant a garden east in Eden. Eden was God's name for the earth. and he in his defiled state also walked there. But he never walked in that Garden of Genesis 2 in his perfect state.

Too bad you don't have scripture to support all that.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

These verses say about Satan

1) He was full of wisdom and perfect in beauty
2) He had been in Eden the garden of God
3) He is the annointed cherub that covereth
4) He was upon the holy mountain of God
5) He was perfect until iniquity was found in him (vs 15), he sinned (vs 16)

Now we see a change. The Bible says God will cast Satan out, but does not specify when.

6) "therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. (vs 16)

7) "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. (vs 18)

So, this does not contradict scripture where Satan has access to heaven in Job, Zechariah, or Revelations 12.

This tells me Satan was perfect and walked in the Garden of Eden. This absolutely contradicts your gap theory that Satan fell between Gen 1:1 and 1:2

After Satan sinned the scriptures say God "will" cast Satan out of the mountain of God, and destroy him. But it does not specify when. All the words God uses are future ("I will" , "therefore will I" "it shall" etc...).

We know from Job, Zechariah, and Revelations 12 that Satan still has access to God in heaven. And Satan has not been destoyed yet, so these are future events.

It also says Satan will be brought to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. This agrees perfectly with Rev. 12

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So, the saved in heaven will witness Satan being cast to the ground, which before did accuse their brethren day and night before God, and they will rejoice. But it is also obvious that NOW is Satan cast down to the earth because "Woe" is pronounced upon the inhabitants of the earth because Satan has great wrath knowing his time is short.

And we know this is the tribulation because he persecuted the woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

This is Israel and identifies with Joseph's dream.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Joseph is the twelve star.

And we know it is the tribulation because the woman is nourished for a time, times, and half a time.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Notice that Satan himself sees that he is cast to the earth during the tribulation.

Sure there are. you just have to rightly divide. Like dividing to find there are three types of "church" or finding that there is more than one "Gospel" in the New Testament. in this case it comes from dividing everything into two dispensations eternal and 24/7. By rightly dividing in that way you will find three "earth's".

if you study and divide properly you will see there was rain before Genesis 7. unlike what we have been taught that it never rained before the flood of Noah. But It did rain after men began to till the earth.

Job, Ezekiel and Revelations are all limited accesses unlike all free run privileges he had prior to his fall.

yes I agree the woman in Rev12 is Israel no doubt about that.

his casting out is like his sentence it is in steps. God is still using Satan to do His will.

P.S.

And remember he is no longer covering what ever it was he was created to cover. though he may hold that title. so he has no access to cover as he did before. If he did lead worship he is limited to access the multitude of Angels for he no longer does that if he did in eternity past. so obviously his access into the third heaven is limited.

Can Sinners parade in the heaven's gate?
 

It seems that wicked dead to be jugded at the Great White Throne will not be a literal heavens door, hence in Revelation 20:11 states that "...there was not found a place for them". The dead, small and great and the Bible speaks of them as standing before God is not to be intrepreted as they were all parading at the very ground of the third heaven or God's abode. The scripture is silent as to where they will judge, maybe an empty space not being mention in the bible. By the way can you or anyone help in telling me where was God before He created the heaven and the earth?:baby:

Jude 25
www.fredsites.weebly.com

Satan or Lucifer?
 

In Ezek. 12 refers to Lucifer when he was not yet cast off. There was all there "full of wisdom and beauty" etc. "Now we see a change. The Bible says God will cast Satan out, but does not specify when. " I guess what the Lord God cast was not Satan, it was the annointed cherub referring to Lucifer. The name of Satan in the Bible never refers to the one decsribe in Ezek. 12, though I believe that Lucifer was named later as Satan by virtue of his casting down.

Jude 25