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-   -   Do you have to be KJVO to be here??? (https://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216)

Greektim 05-04-2009 06:26 AM

Do you have to be KJVO to be here???
 
If you do not then...

Just curious about the constituancy of the forum and how non-KJVO's are treated.

Brother Tim 05-04-2009 07:50 AM

GT, you have been monitoring this forum for long enough to know how non-KJBers are treated. It all depends on their approach. Those who come on telling us that we are wrong are quickly and sternly dispatched. They have plenty of other places to throw that stuff out to the internet. Those who come on pretending to be something they are not, either pretending to ask an innocent question or pretending to be a KJBO, are removed or "excommunicated" as soon as the truth is revealed.

If a non-KJBer wants to come on this forum and discuss any of the other myriad of topics available and active here, I, for one, have no problem with that. If you agree that the text issue is the one area that you will avoid, then I think that there are plenty here who will receive you as a brother. I know personally that you are serious about your walk with Christ, and that you are deliberate with your discussions.

I would welcome you here, with the one topic exception.

Greektim 05-04-2009 07:54 AM

Thanks for your reply, brOTHER Tim.

Just to clarify, I actually do not monitor this forum very much. I just recently came back out of mere curiosity. I will do my utmost to keep my discussion respectful and seasoned with salt.

Winman 05-04-2009 03:54 PM

Greektim

I have only been on the forum a short while, so I have not had a chance to speak with you.

I just have a simple question really. Why did you come back?

Bro. Parrish 05-04-2009 03:55 PM

Greektim,
I think that's a fair question. I guess it depends on why they are here and their attitude about the Word of God as it exists in our King James Bible.

For example you say you are here because of curiosity, but some others have come here simply exhibiting different forms of Bible denial, to that point I posted the following on another thread a while back...



It seems to me we get three types of Bible deniers on this forum:

1. Those who are honest about their confusion, they are having trouble with the KJV issue, but they really are seeking truth and asking honest questions about the KJV. We can help these people, if they listen and research the issue. I shall think of these as CBD's (Confused Bible Deniers). Perhaps we should pray for more of these people, so we can help them with God's truth on the KJV.

2. Those who are blatantly in denial of the inerrancy of the King James Bible as it exists today. These people seldom seem to repent, they are here merely to create strife, and usually find themselves quickly escorted off the site with a ban. I shall think of these as BBD's, (Blatant Bible Deniers).

3. Those who are sneaky about their denial. These guys come on here and start asking rhetorical questions and they APPEAR to be a category one above, but in reality they are perhaps the worst type. I say they are worst because they lurk here for a while and put on appearances, and it takes a fair amount of effort and patient replies to "figure them out." I shall consider these as SBD's, (Sneaky Bible Deniers).

Of course I am conscious that these are all precious souls, and I think we should pray for discernment as we try to deal with these confused people. I have already noticed that some like Bro. George are pretty good at this already.

But in the end, I am still amazed at how many of them align themselves with the Alexandrian Cult doctrine as outlined by Brother Ruckman so many years ago.

Greektim 05-04-2009 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 19149)
Greektim

I have only been on the forum a short while, so I have not had a chance to speak with you.

I just have a simple question really. Why did you come back?

So iron can sharpen iron. And of course that works both ways. I hope to contribute to this forum in the same way I might recieve contribution.

Brother Tim 05-04-2009 04:16 PM

Now GT, if you start commenting on "going to the Greek", "final authority", etc., the iron around here is going to justifiably bonk you on the head. If you don't want to get disenfranchised before you get started, keep messing around in those threads. We don't need to get that fuss going again. There is plenty of other stuff here to work on. As a friend, I am asking you to not comment on areas having to do with the text, including gray areas.

Greektim 05-04-2009 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 19157)
Now GT, if you start commenting on "going to the Greek", "final authority", etc., the iron around here is going to justifiably bonk you on the head. If you don't want to get disenfranchised before you get started, keep messing around in those threads. We don't need to get that fuss going again. There is plenty of other stuff here to work on. As a friend, I am asking you to not comment on areas having to do with the text, including gray areas.

So I can't add in comments on any textual/translational issue?

Winman 05-04-2009 04:28 PM

Quote:


So iron can sharpen iron. And of course that works both ways. I hope to contribute to this forum in the same way I might recieve contribution.

Well, thanks for the honest answer. But if you do not have God's Word, then you do not have any iron.

Greektim 05-04-2009 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 19160)
Well, thanks for the honest answer. But if you do not have God's Word, then you do not have any iron.

I have plenty of KJV's. So that's not a problem. And I am pretty sure "iron" does not refer to the Scripture but the saint. So I am iron.

Bro. Parrish 05-04-2009 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 19160)
Well, thanks for the honest answer. But if you do not have God's Word, then you do not have any iron.

Good point.
I hear there are quite a few versions on the market today that suffer from IRON DEFICIENCY. ;)

Winman 05-04-2009 04:43 PM

Quote:

I have plenty of KJV's. So that's not a problem. And I am pretty sure "iron" does not refer to the Scripture but the saint. So I am iron.
Then you admit that the KJV is the Word of God?

If so, all others cannot be, because they are not the same.

Correct?

Greektim 05-04-2009 04:45 PM

I admit that the KJV is an old English translation of the Word of God. But I don't admit that it is iron.

Winman 05-04-2009 04:48 PM

Quote:


I admit that the KJV is an old English translation of the Word of God. But I don't admit that it is iron.
Well then, if you admit the KJV is the Word of God, then we are in agreement.

Luke 05-04-2009 04:52 PM

But he didn't. He said it was a translation of the word of God. In other words the non existant "originals" are the work of God, and God lost them.

Bro. Parrish 05-04-2009 04:54 PM

:pop2: :pop2: :pop2:

Brother Tim 05-04-2009 04:59 PM

Well, Tim, you can see how quickly the topic can move into a confrontation. I am only saying that you started with a question in this thread, and I am plainly telling you that there are areas in this forum where you will not be welcome. This forum is not the place to do battle over the text (original or English).

Winman 05-04-2009 05:02 PM

Bro Luke

I wanted to hear him admit he does not believe the KJV is the Word of God.

You noticed he didn't answer?

Greektim 05-04-2009 05:07 PM

I answered...#13. Is it not a translation of the Word of God?

But I would call it the Word of God. I don't have a problem with that.

Bro. Parrish 05-04-2009 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 19173)
Well, Tim, you can see how quickly the topic can move into a confrontation. I am only saying that you started with a question in this thread, and I am plainly telling you that there are areas in this forum where you will not be welcome. This forum is not the place to do battle over the text (original or English).

Bro Tim, I was looking at the other thread and I have to ask,
is GreekTim really your little brother?

Greektim 05-04-2009 05:15 PM

I'll answer if that's ok...

Only in the faith. Brother Tim is a man that I greatly respect though I don't always agree with him. I'm sure he'll have something else to add or clarify.

Winman 05-04-2009 05:40 PM

Quote:

I answered...#13. Is it not a translation of the Word of God?

But I would call it the Word of God. I don't have a problem with that.
Again, if the KJV is the Word of God, then all other versions cannot be, because they are not the same.

Correct?

Greektim 05-04-2009 05:46 PM

I would not agree. Translations might be deficient in the translational philosophy and lose the message. Not a fan. But faithful translations to the HOT & GNT are the Word of God, in my opinion. What we might disagree on is the complete Word of God.

Winman 05-04-2009 05:49 PM

Do you have all the faithful (and how do you determine that?) translations to the HOT & GNT? In other words, do you have and possess the complete Word of God yourself?

Bro. Parrish 05-04-2009 05:55 PM

LOL, I can see where this is headed... :rolleyes:

Greektim 05-04-2009 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 19181)
Do you have all the faithful (and how do you determine that?) translations to the HOT & GNT? In other words, do you have and possess the complete Word of God yourself?

I don't have ALL reliable translations. I'm too poor :(

You would say I do. I would as well, but it would not mean the same thing.

Winman 05-04-2009 06:02 PM

Quote:

I don't have ALL reliable translations. I'm too poor
Then you have nothing. You have come to a gunfight with a knife.

How are you going to correct us?

Greektim 05-04-2009 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 19185)
Then you have nothing. You have come to a gunfight with a knife.

How are you going to correct us?

Well...owning a copy of Scriptures was a luxury in the old days.

I don't believe I said I was. Did I say I was? I don't recall saying that.

Winman 05-04-2009 06:09 PM

You said you wanted to sharpen iron with iron. But you have no iron.

And how can you have faith? Faith comes only by hearing the Word of God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And that is not meant to be a contentious question, it is sincere. How can you trust in God's Word if you do not have it?

Greektim 05-04-2009 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 19187)
You said you wanted to sharpen iron with iron. But you have no iron.

And how can you have faith? Faith comes only by hearing the Word of God.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And that is not meant to be a contentious question, it is sincere. How can you trust in God's Word if you do not have it?

Iron is not the Word of God but the saints. So I am the iron. You would be more correct in saying that I am not iron.

By your reasoning, only those saved under the KJV are saved. Is that right? I was saved w/ the KJV. I don't use it anymore (rarely to be accurate). Did I lose my salvation? Or was I never actually saved? Is faith in the KJVO doctrine part of the Gospel? Serious questions.

Again, I do have the Word of God. I didn't say otherwise.

Winman 05-04-2009 06:22 PM

I have to get off the computer, maybe others can take over.

But it is not I that says you must have the Word of God to have faith, the Bible itself says that. Not only must you HAVE it, you must also BELIEVE it.

Now, I'm not saying you are a believer or not, only God knows that. But the Bible says you must hear the Word of God to have faith. And if you do not have the Word of God you cannot have faith.

And that makes perfect sense. If you do not know in your heart that the Bible is true, then surely you cannot have faith and trust in it. If you don't know which words are God's or man's, how can you trust it?

I am glad I have the infallible Word of God that I can put my complete trust in.

Wish I could continue, really have to go, but perhaps I will be back tomorrow. Others can answer your questions.

Nice talking to you (and I really mean that).

peopleoftheway 05-04-2009 07:00 PM

Quote:

By your reasoning, only those saved under the KJV are saved. Is that right? I was saved w/ the KJV. I don't use it anymore (rarely to be accurate). Did I lose my salvation? Or was I never actually saved? Is faith in the KJVO doctrine part of the Gospel? Serious questions.
No one is saying that the KJB is the only Bible people can get saved from, the "simple" truth is one can get saved from a Gospel tract, no one is saying that modern versions don't contain the words of God, they just don't contain all the words of God. They are leavened with Greek philosophy and roman catholic teaching and the sound of a cash registers "ching ching"
Let me get this right out of the way and brushed out the door, not one person on this site worth his salt is saying the KJB is a requirement for salvation, this is an appalling misconception modern version advocates will bring up to make Bible believers look cultist.
We simply trust and believe that God has preserved his words (all of them) without error in English in one Book, the KJB, nothing more, nothing less.
Shame you cannot hold one Book up in the air and claim the same.

Luke 05-04-2009 07:00 PM

Pro 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Uhh....

Stop arguing about Iron. You are all wrong. It's a proverb.

Iron is Iron. There were not "saints" when this was written, and the word of God is not in context.

As a proverb, it could be used in any situation as a likeness.

tonybones2112 05-04-2009 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greektim (Post 19111)
If you do not then...

Just curious about the constituancy of the forum and how non-KJVO's are treated.

Tim, I'd suggest you contact the webmaster for any particular questions. I am what is known in IFB circles as a "dry cleaner", I didn't come here to preach or make converts to the Grace Movement and answer question son that topic where they are posed to me. I am "KJO" and in spite of my differences with most the people on this forum, they have been perfect gentlemen and ladies to me and have treated me in a polite and Godly manner I do not think could be surpassed. Contact Brandon Staggs is my advice.

Grace and peace to you

Tony

tonybones2112 05-04-2009 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greektim (Post 19180)
I would not agree. Translations might be deficient in the translational philosophy and lose the message. Not a fan. But faithful translations to the HOT & GNT are the Word of God, in my opinion. What we might disagree on is the complete Word of God.

Tim, nowhere in the Scriptures is the issue of "faithful translations" addressed.

2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

Ac 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.


1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The sign gifts of Mark 16 are given to witness to unbelieving Israel, to Jews who do not understand the language of the speaker(the disciple, apostle, whoever is witnessing to them) and not for believers. This verse above has the same application in that speaking in German to English-speakers is just as forbidden. Rome broke this rule in keeping the Scriptures in Latin, when most of Europe and the rest of their pashaliks spoke the native tongues.

The doctors and professors within Christianity is also breaking that commandment in trying to place the "HOT" and "GNT" as being more authoritative than the English Scriptures the average, common English speaking Christian has in his hands. The Scriptures are not to be locked away in seminaries and institutions of higher learning to be autopsied but in the field in the hands of the average Christian. Transferring authority to a myriad of texts merely creates a priestclass of scholars, in the Age of Grace, the Church Age today, there are NO priests.

We view the KJV as given by inspiration based on the internal evidence found within it:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

As Paul said, we receive this as the word of God, "all the counsel of God", and do not make that determination via ,manuscript evidence since that was settled and determined in 1611 without any Catholic interference with exception of a few dozen barrels of gunpowder. We receive the KJV as the word of God becasue it works effectually in us and in others.

I believe that might be a good primer in explaining the "KJVO" belief on the Scriptures in English.

Grace and peace to you

Tony

Bro. Parrish 05-04-2009 11:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman
Do you have all the faithful (and how do you determine that?) translations to the HOT & GNT? In other words, do you have and possess the complete Word of God yourself?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greektim (Post 19184)
I don't have ALL reliable translations. I'm too poor :(

Greektim, do you think that in order to for a man to have the complete Word of God he would need multiple translations?

bibleprotector 05-05-2009 01:53 AM

Bro. Parish, I liked that thing about Sneaky Bible Deniers!

I would say that the intrinsic problem with others is that they are Parroting Bible Deniers. “The KJB is not perfect, because, look, everyone says so, and those who say otherwise are unscholarly.”

What I really want to see is people are Unwilling Bible Deniers who come to understand the truth, and are wanting to conform to God’s true and pure Word, the King James Bible.

Bro. Parrish 05-05-2009 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector (Post 19210)
Bro. Parish, I liked that thing about Sneaky Bible Deniers!

I would say that the intrinsic problem with others is that they are Parroting Bible Deniers. “The KJB is not perfect, because, look, everyone says so, and those who say otherwise are unscholarly.”

What I really want to see is people are Unwilling Bible Deniers who come to understand the truth, and are wanting to conform to God’s true and pure Word, the King James Bible.

Good points brother! :thumb:

Winman 05-07-2009 02:08 PM

Greektim

Sorry to take so long to get back to you. As others said, I am not saying you can only be saved through the KJV. A person could be saved from a Bible tract, or listening to preaching.

But when I asked how can you have faith, I meant exactly that. In your own words you implied the KJV is not reliable. Well, what is the definition of the word reliable? It means something that can be trusted, something faithful, something someone can believe in. By your own words you do not believe the KJV to be reliable. So by your own words you do not have faith in the KJV.

And that is the problem with you folks that claim the Word of God is here, there, and everywhere... everywhere but in one complete book. You don't know where the true Word of God is, so you cannot have faith.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The Bible says (not me) that without faith it is impossible to please God. For you must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now read that last part carefully, "that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him". Do you understand what that means? God is telling you that you can find him if you seek him.

But the Bible correctors and deniers do not believe this. They are not really completely sure where the Word of God is. They do not believe that one can truly find God's infallible Word. They have no faith.


What you need to do is believe God's promise that he would preserve his word and that you can find him, and quit listening to the doubters.

tonybones2112 05-07-2009 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peopleoftheway (Post 19191)
No one is saying that the KJB is the only Bible people can get saved from, the "simple" truth is one can get saved from a Gospel tract, no one is saying that modern versions don't contain the words of God, they just don't contain all the words of God. They are leavened with Greek philosophy and roman catholic teaching and the sound of a cash registers "ching ching"
Let me get this right out of the way and brushed out the door, not one person on this site worth his salt is saying the KJB is a requirement for salvation, this is an appalling misconception modern version advocates will bring up to make Bible believers look cultist.
We simply trust and believe that God has preserved his words (all of them) without error in English in one Book, the KJB, nothing more, nothing less.
Shame you cannot hold one Book up in the air and claim the same.

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

I agree. The vast majority of members of this forum hold to the belief that God provided in 1611 through King James what's in the verse above, the whole counsel of God, not bits and fragments here and there in this text and manuscript or that payrus fragment or Vaticanus. A very good test for authenticity of any bible or manuscript or text is the reading of the next verse in Acts, verse 28 and whether it's been altered to hide the doctrine that God purchased the Church with His own blood, pointing to the Deity of Christ, the number one corruption category among the texts, manuscripts, and versions.

Grace and peace friends.

Tony


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