Good point...

Hi all, I learned earlier that the sound byte from that earlier website is only a snip of a full version that's available at the following link; however, downloading the byte is from somewhere else, but I'm passing these along. I have listened to it in greater detail & filed it in iTunes - a fierce reminder to be completely obedient to the Word of God.

• http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billi...ng_to_hell.htm
• http://www.coasttocoastam.com/audio/sounds_of_hell.mp3

Thank you for all this insight. :) It has helped greatly in my understanding of where I need to be in Christ Jesus, to be spared forever from the reality of what awaits they that enter & enjoy the wide gate.

I'm glad these discussions have helped you, but I wonder if you would hold the same conviction of hell that you do now if you had never listened to that sound clip?

Personally, I think belief & faith in God's word is sufficient enough to preach the reality of hell with a strong conviction. I also think there is a danger of anyone relying on extra-Biblical evidence, such as sound recordings (of which I am sceptical of the one you posted), to support their belief. Again, the word of God is sufficient, and I believe that's how God wants it:

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Location of the "lake of fire"
 

The quite literal location of the lake of fire as described in Scripture is The Dead Sea. You can't drink it, or even float in it, due to the high petrochemical content. An nuclear explosion at 500 feet in the 2 kiloton range will ignite a fire no man can put out.

Just my 2 shekels...

Grace and peace

Tony

The Dead Sea huh? Chapter & verse please?

I do believe we will be able to view the lake of fire in eternity, according to Isaiah 66:23-24.

Hehe, you got some wild ideas brother.

Peace and Love,
Stephene

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Rev. 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

It's apparent mankind is a triune entity and that the soul is the exact matrix, or pattern, of the physical body. In Revelation we have souls wearing robes, and John didn't have an hallucination.

Dr. Ruckman told a joke in one of his books: An elderly woman mocked a preacher's sermon on wailing and gnashing of teeth in hell. She said, preacher, I ain't got no teeth. The preacher responded, Madam, teeth will be provided.

pa dump pssshhhhhhhhh

Grace and peace

Tony

You just gave it Matt. Let's look at the passage in Isaiah 66:

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

When we back up and read verses 10-13 we see the geographical location of this worship and the viewing of the damned in the lake of fire is Jeruslaem. Let's look in Romans 8:

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

This passage in Romans and related verses lead me to believe the Universe is in a sort of state of "suspended animation" and is decaying(entropy).

Common sense tells me there is a giant inland sea in the vicinity of Jerusalem that contains almost more flammable sodiums and petrochemicals than water.

Waiting to be ignited. As the Universe waits to be remade for habitation as it was in Genesis 1.

God of course does not need thermonuclear weapons to do His will, it is an illustration from physics what the Dead Sea is. A seething cauldron waiting to be ignited. The lake of fire is a literal lake in a literal location. It's nothing to build a theology on and won't save souls, only the gospel of Christ can do that, but I believe it is a salient point in discussing hell with those who deny it, as the Seventh Day Adventists and the JWs, and is a good point of bible study and illustration of prayerfully seeking an answer to a small question from the Scriptures.

Grace and peace my friend

Tony

As I told Matt, it's nothing to start a sect on or contend over, but I think when we view it Scripturally the answer is right there. If a good topical bible study is like a meal, this is a little snack. It may seem wild at first glance, not quite as wild as a Man rising from the dead or the man in II Thes. 2:3 and John 17:12 being the same man. There are all kinds of little tid bits will curl your hair if you research them such as the fact the "star" of Bethlehem was an angel, the number of wise men is not given, and that Satan is not a "fallen angel" but was the leader of the highest order of created being, a cherubim.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

I don't necessarily agree with the Dead Sea theory,
but I couldn't resist adding more "fuel for the fire"... :rolleyes:

"RE-ACTIVATING THE DEAD SEA AS THE LAKE OF FIRE"
http://www.newswatchmagazine.org/res...akeoffire4.htm

Actually it appears Bro. Ruckman (like Bro. Kiwi), clings to the WORM SOUL theory. No hands, no ears, no feet, no eyes, just a big pile of red maggots squirming in the Lake of Fire for eternity.
Yes, I think they could BOTH be wrong, but don't tell Bro. Ruckman I said that. :rolleyes:

It also appears that Bro. Ruckman thinks the Lake of Fire is located somewhere off the rim of the universe.

Doc Pete had a dissertation on Jonah and the gourd and the worm, he gets something from that about the worm soul. Isaiah 66 makes it pretty clear the damned are pretty recognizable as tormented humans, with eternal worms eating them. I don;t see the sense in turning into a worm for eternity, Doc Pete may have read Rod Serling down the line somewhere(I write horror fiction also).

Isaiah 66 10-13 gives the general location of the lake of fire, near Jerusalem. I think the "rim of the universe" thing is like the "gap" theory, wild speculation and a bit ethereal.

I'm pretty sure Doc would not talk to me, I'm "the enemy", one of them dry cleanin' hyperdispensationalist Calvinist Stamite-Jordanite-Darbyite-O'Hairites who wants to destroy the church John The Baptist founded with my ASV.

Right

Grace and peace to you brother

Tony

It's a pretty common belief Bro. Parrish. Like I say, believe what you want to, not a point of contention, but I got ridiculed in front of my science class in 8th grade in 1968 for bringing out my belief The Dead Sea was the future lake of fire. Interesting link:) Thanks.

Grace and peace

Tony

More fuel for the flames... :)

This author says the location of the Lake of Fire is Babylon (Iraq):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/520968/The-Lake-of-Fire

This author says the location of the lake of fire cannot now be known; it may even be a star:
http://www.icr.org/article/lake-fire/

This author says Babylon (Iraq):
http://www.pawcreek.org/articles_pcm...bylon_hell.htm

This author agrees with your assertion:
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d810201.htm

The Dead Sea... :cool:


http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2...an/DeadSea.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2...n/DeadSea2.jpg

:pound: hehehe, Bro. Parrish said "flames."

Get it? :p

Flames, hell.... :flame:

ahhhhhh, never mind....:D

But the location of Isaiah 66:23 & 24 is relating to verse 22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD". I'm not so sure there will even be a Dead Sea on the new earth? I believe that the current one will be melted up with everything else before the Lord creates the new heavens and earth.

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Hey, I never went into that much detail about their worm, they may still have those 'body' parts in their soulish form, my main contention is that the worm is THEIR SOUL and not some other creature eating or tormenting them.

So there.

Yeah, this is what I was about to post. I don't think it will be on the newly created earth since I don't think God would want people bearing their own sins on His new creation. Also, wherever it is it needs to be big enough for death and hell to be cast into it. Also, I've been reading some recent theories about where matter originally came from. Some scientists are speculating that if you focus enough "light" somehwhere that matter will spontaneously be created. I imagine that God's unfiltered glory is bright enough to do the trick! Hehe. Nevertheless, I also think that God's glory is enough to burst any sinner into flames if he were so caught in the presence of the Lord bearing his own sins.

For our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29 KJV)

Just an idea...

Peace and Love,
Stephen

You're just trying to "wiggle" your way out of this brother... :bounce:

I'm not sure about the Lake of Fire location, but you have all made some good points. I'm just thankful we don't have to go there. :)

Not to hijack the thread, but I have always thought that the Dead Sea was created at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Here is a site that claims to have found the actual ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is fascinating, with lots of pictures.


http://english.sdaglobal.org/evangelism/arch/sodom.htm

I'm not sure about the Lake of Fire location either, but I think we tend to be too limited in our surmisings. I think God already has things sorted out that we can't begin to imagine with our finite minds.

:amen:

It is limited in every aspect as to creation and location because it was created prior to the current 24/7TQ and it's location is outside the TQ as well.

So would you have us resign our efforts to further study Gods word in hope of finding the answer/s? :) There is so much treasure in that Book that great men of God have admitted at the end of their lives that they didn't know the half of it. What a statement that is! I'm reminded of 1 Corinthians 2:9-10:

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

I enjoy these discussions about the deep things of God with other believers, because we can learn from our limited surmisings, when in contrast to the Bible that is. I believe God's word contains many answers yet undiscovered, and God reveals them to whom He will, usually to them who are closest to Him and are seeking the answers from His word.

Thank you Bro. Parrish.

I do not believe it is Iraq, Iraq is not in the vicinity of Jerusalem as Isaiah 66 says it is.

I believe if we look in the Scriptures and as Jesus said, he that has ears to hear(and eyes to read) can find where the lake is. I think the "star" theory is a good plot for a horror story, but bad speculation of men.

Babylon is not in the vicinity of Jerusalem.

I'll study the final link, I believe it is The Dead Sea.

Thanks again:)

Grace and peace

Tony

I think though Laura that to give glory to Him and His Scriptures He will reveal to anyone who honestly inquires as to what is where and how something is(was) done.

The Apostles were gathered together and suddenly Jesus appeared right through the door. Understanding physics we know, since He made the laws of physics, He can bend them to His will, so He walked through the door by throwing the molecules of His Body out of magnetic/atomic phase to the door and passed right through, something we cannot do.

Like the lake of fire, again, not something to argue over or build a theology on, but being in season and out and quick, someone asked me on the street once how Jesus walked through the wall into the room while I was explaining the story of Thomas. That info didn't save that person, it made them more sympathetic to listen and not mock as they did on Mars Hill, and a seed was planted when we gave them the gospel of Christ.

On another plane I do not know and it is nor will be revealed to us the biology of raising a decomposed dead body to life(Lazarus), I only have faith He did.

Grace and peace to you.

Tony

Matt, we have the mind of Christ. we don;t know the biology of raising decomposed human bodies to life or how to create matter from nothing, but I believe as you do, He will answer a question IF IT IS FOR HIS GLORY. For His glory He revealed to me the fact the firstborn is always rejected. He had TWO sons, the first being Isreal, the second Christ. He teaches by similitudes. Look at Cain and Abel. Look at Ishmael and Isaac. Look at Jacob and Esau. Then He says, you are my firstborn son, Israel(the nation). The wise men of the east knew a son(Israel)would be rejected and the Second Son the accepted. I believe the antichrist is Judas and will be a Maronite Catholic, half Jew, who will mediate the surrender of Israel to the Gentile nations. I believe the Pope is the False Prophet who will declare him Jesus Christ, and He will sit in the temple as God. Am I correct? I base these on the Scripture, not my own beliefs.

Grace and peace to you, and happy hunting:)

Tony

Well, wherever it is situated will be need to be somewhere within the confines of God's creation (new heavens & earth), for it will be accessible and able to be viewed by "all flesh" (those flesh creatures who will be inhabiting God's creation at that time, us included) according to the Isaiah 66 passage.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Note also that these worship services take place every week (sabbath) and every month (new moon), so there will be familiar time constraints in place in God's new heavens and earth.

How big do you think it needs to be? How much space do billions of human souls, fallen angels & devils take up??

Mark 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Horror story, well I agree my brother...
Then again, what could be more horrible than billions of people burning for eternity? Does it sound like science fiction to you, well okay brother but have you ever read Ruckman's description of the New Jerusalem, the Great White Throne Judgement or the flying roll of Zech. 5? :)

The more I look at Isaiah 66, the less I am convinced it is teaching anything about the Dead Sea being the Lake of Fire or its distance from Jerusalem. Please forgive me guys, maybe it's there, but I'm just not seeing it.

Let's face it, Isaiah 66:22 sets the context as the NEW heavens and the NEW earth, if God wants to he can set up a system for all flesh to see them burning on the surface of some NEW version of a sun or sun-like creation, a great burning mass of fire, who knows. The sun---now THAT is one big lake of fire, (maybe 11000°F) and it's close enough that everyone on earth already sees it every day. The rich man in Luke 16 was able to SEE Abraham, even though there was a "GREAT GULF fixed" between them. Even with our primitive video systems we can see things in great detail that are far away right now.

Again, the context of Isaiah 66:22 sets the context as the NEW heavens and the NEW earth, so I'm not sure the passage in Isaiah 66 is teaching anything about the Dead Sea being the Lake of Fire, I guess to me that feels like speculation of men as well. But there is nothing wrong with that of course---after all, we are not discussing doctrinal foundations here.

The first setting of Rev. 20-21 is marked by a spiritual being with a key of the "bottomless pit" and a chain, where Satan is imprisoned. By the time we get to wherever and whatever the Lake of Fire is, (vs. 10-15) this burning thing is able to hold not only the devil and his angels for which it was prepared, it is also going to HOLD "DEATH AND HELL." This does not sound like a lake on earth to me with earthly fire, this seems more unearthly. Besides, the first earth has "passed away." This isn't Kansas anymore. (Rev 21:1, II Peter 3:10)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think in this setting we will be witnessing and dealing with events and locations that are on a different physical and spiritual plane than we can imagine. Try as we might to grasp all this, the reality is that God has prepared some things that have not even entered into our hearts or imagination (1 Corinthians 2:9).

Now THAT is a good question brother...
are we talking worm souls or full size human souls?

Forgive me Kiwi, you know I had to ask this... :D

sort of depends on the size of the worm...

http://www.seasky.org/deep-sea/giant-tube-worm.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm..._worms02m.html

http://animals.jrank.org/pages/1689/...-ACCOUNTS.html

It's probable that the soul, once it has left a man's body, takes on the exact shape and size of that man's body. In the case of damned souls, God may change their size & shape? I still think that "their worm" is referring to their soul, but whether or not it takes on the shape of an actual worm I do not know. Dr Ruckman thinks that their shape will degenerate into a form resembling their father the Devil, that old slithering serpent.

I've been thinking about the phrase Christ used three times in Mark chapter 9 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched", and if this worm is another creature and not the soul itself, then the text is not teaching eternal damnation of the soul, but only teaching that the worm creature never dies? See what I mean, jellybean?

Yep, it's in his commentary.
And like yourself, I am not sure about all this either brother.
Oliver B. Greene believed as you do, but he avoided any details.

I don't follow you brother, but clearly you have sucked me into this cursed worm debate once more (you rascal). :)

Okay let's see...

The word "damnation" does not appear anywhere in this chapter, however:

I see the UNQUENCHING FIRE no less than six times in that passage.

I see the word HELL no less than three times in there.

So, whether this worm is the human soul or a devouring maggot that never dies, it would have no bearing on the fact that there is severe and everlasting BURNING punishment implied.

I still think these are the supernatural worms of hell which cover Lucifer (Satan) in Isaiah 14:9-15.

Furthermore, I think the the rich man in hell appeared to Abraham as a MAN in flames. Abraham seemed to recognize this fellow as a human, for he detailed his life on earth and referred to him as a "son" not a degenerated worm without hands or feet, etc.

Food for thought, just food for thought. :)

That's true, but that was in "hell" NOT in the "lake of fire". Two different locations, one is a temporary 'prison' until the resurrection of the dead, and the other is their final and permanent destination, and that's the context of Isaiah 66:24 which Jesus was referring to.

Brings up an interesting point, those in hell will be resurrected before they are tossed into the lake of fire, so maybe they retain their human form until the resurrection and then begin their degeneration once in the lake! :eek:

Problem is, that would mean the human soul is a worm, and we have already covered that. These horrible creatures are not human souls, not degenerated former human-worms, not armless men, not maggot-men, not worm-boys, not homo-sapiens-worms, and not cute little wiggle-worms. The little book Ruckman preaches about called "Beyond Death's Door" by Dr. Maurice Rawlings gives a good description; they are big and nasty enough to be considered as "red snakes" by a patient who apparently died and saw them in chapter one. The description of that hellish vision convinced the atheist Rawlings to reconsider his position of "higher learning" and get saved. (the fact that the patient's hair was standing on end probably helped).

Let's review...

These creatures are made for a special purpose, they NEVER die, just like "the fire that NEVER shall be quenched." (Mark 9:43-48). These nasty worms are associated in scripture with hell and satan. (Isaiah 14:9-15).

God apparently used some unusual worms to devour Herod Agrippa in a matter of seconds (Acts 12:23), and we know God has used fiery serpents to torment and kill people (Numbers 21:6-9) so I have no problem seeing these as His instruments of eternal torment... just like the torment of those horrible flames.

To me the picture is clear; this means the child murderer who killed little six year old Adam Walsh and tossed his severed head in a Florida canal will not only BURN forever, he or she will be GNAWED UPON by worms, like rotten fruit for all eternity.

Matt, God gave Abraham and his seed a land grant that is eternal. Jerusalem and Israel, even in New Heavens and New Earth, will be in the same location. If the lake of fire is eternal it;s location is eternal.

But you know what? I'm gonna take everything you have said to me on the topic and study it. It's a little side study, but interesting as Sheol:)

Grace and peace to you

Tony

I'm not so sure that the new earth with be an exact duplicate geographically of this present one, I don't think the scripture necessitates it. Can you please post the verses you have in mind about this eternal land grant brother Tony?

The lake of fire will not be burning until after the existing elements burn up and the great white throne judgment takes place, so technically it doesn't even exist yet!

It's not a problem as far as I'm concerned brother. :p

I'm highly sceptical of these near-death/clinically dead experiences that people have written about, especially when they go into much detail about hell and it's inhabitants. A good example is "23 Minutes in Hell" by Bill Wiese:

http://spiritlessons.com/DOCUMENTS/B...nHell_Text.htm

"Bill Wiese saw the searing flames of hell, felt total isolation, and experienced the putrid and rotting stench, deafening screams of agony, terrorizing demons, and finally, the strong hand of God lifting him out of the pit.
"Tell them I am coming very, very soon!" "

To me this nullifies faith, I don't believe God allows people to see & experience supernatural things that would cause them to believe in Him. Sure, in Old Testament times God worked that way, through dreams and visions, but not in this Church Age.

I didn;t mean to drag hell down to the level of a fictional story brother, I agree hell is terrible beyond human understanding.

Or is it?

The fire and the worms, yes, the real hell is being out of God's presence for all eternity, never knowing the ultimate Good, never resting, never a nanosecond's relief.

Isaac Asimov once write a story called HELLFIRE where a highspeed film was taken of a nuclear explosion, when the film was played at normal speed the face of Satan was seen, course the worldly image of Satan: Van Dyke beard and the horns on the forehead.

The idea hell is a star, pardon the pohrase, inspires me to develop a story for my scifi collection. Think I'll call it A STAR NAMED GEHENNA.

Grace and peace brother Parrish

Tony