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greenbear 07-21-2009 01:41 PM

Hi PaulB,

Quote:

Yes, there are occasions in the OT were things happened that are contrary to the norm, but the historical recording of them isn’t the spiritual endorsement of them.
Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. He had two wives at the same time.

The twelve tribes of Israel came from Jacob's loins by 2 wives and their handmaidens.

David was married to Michal Saul's daughter, Abigail, Bathsheba, and that young woman to keep him warm in his old age, maybe others, I don't remember.

Elkanah had two wives. Samuel the prophet was his son through Hannah.

Maybe these multiple marriages were contrary to the norm but the patriarchs and King David and the father of Samuel were certainly not incidental to God's plan.

How many wives does or will God have?
How many god's do believers in the God of Israel have?

It was not allowed by God that a woman could have more than one husband at a time ever at any time in history.

It was allowed by God for a man to have multiple wives at the same time throughout most of history.

Marriage is a similitude of God's relationship with His people, both Israel and Christ's body the church and perhaps by other saints when the new earth is created, (I'm not sure about that).

All I know is that Muslim gentleman with seven wives would be be ignoring Paul's admonitions and instructions as to how believers are to conduct their affairs if he abandoned six of his wives and his children by them. I suppose if it could be determined from scripture that he is not joined to the last six by God he could offer dowries and try to marry them off to other believers, that is assuming the six women are believers, as well. But once he took his second wife wouldn't he have been breaking the law by staying with the first one according to Deut 24:4? If that's the case then David and Elkanah would have been breaking the law of Moses. I honestly don't know the answer. What I do know is that if my husband took another wife he would have trouble in the flesh. That is an understatement. :D

PaulB 07-21-2009 02:37 PM

Greenbear
 
Hello again!

Thank you for sharing your examples from the Old Testament it is good food for thought.

If I were to tell you that you have to keep the commandments you would probably reply by saying that that is Old Covenant and Christ has fulfilled it and you would be right! But you do seem to be using the opposite kind of philosophical rule by which to interpret the NT rather than approaching the OT with the words of Christ on the subject.

There is no doubt in my mind that God has allowed things to take place throughout history that needed to take place even though it would seem unimaginable until it was done (Judas betraying Jesus was all included in that!)

I also recognise the following: Nu.22:28 “And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?”

This doesn’t prove that we should expect that to happen again (these are exceptions to what Asses were originally created for!).

Marriage is unquestionably there as a shadow representing Christ and His church (not churches – but church) Eph.5: 31-33 “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.” (nothing plural there).

There is much more to marriage than what we see here on earth it has an original design by a designer! Now if a wife can only have one husband (as you say) but a man can have a multitude of wives then how does that fit into the Passage above.

We must approach this subject from the basis of Christ as the final revelation on the matter;

Mt.5:31-32 “It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.”

Yes there were the things that went before “BUT I SAY UNTO YOU..”

Mt.19: 3-10 “The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.”

This is how seriously Jesus takes marriage and its original purpose – these words were so convicting that His disciples thought that it is better to stay clear of such a demanding ordinance. Re-marriage didn’t seem to be a problem for them and they knew how (by their traditions which they would have formed from OT interpretations) to justify exceptions to the rule. So Jesus gave it to them as it stands (and was always to have stood) and this is what Paul is picking up on in Ephesians chapter 5.

There is no way that a handful of examples from the OT can possibly outweigh the authority of what Jesus Himself has to say on the matter as He created marriage. I would rather hear Christ on the matter than those in the OT who are fallen creatures and did not have the light that He has.

After saying this – I am enjoying our interaction as this is helping us all to dig deep and weigh all of the given evidence.

God bless you Greenbear:)

PaulB

greenbear 07-21-2009 03:14 PM

PaulB,

It is a pleasure to discourse with you as well, brother. I do believe I have enjoyed reading every post you have ever posted.

I am in no way endorsing polygamy. You are absolutely right in saying that from the beginning God meant for one man and one woman to marry. I don't think I even need to comment on the question of whether a man can marry a man or a woman a woman. The practice of homosexuality is an abomination to God. Jesus gave the final word on marriage. His words are the final authority on any topic.

Yet, we are informed that God allowed, even worked through marriage with multiple wives. He allowed for it although it was not how he created marriage in the beginning. He also allowed for putting away His first wife Israel for a time, and taking a second wife, the Church.

Consider these verses.

Quote:

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Quote:

1 Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
I would ask why Paul found it necessary to stipulate that bishops, deacons, etc. be husbands of one wife if there were no members of the church who had more than one wife? If only one wife was allowed in those times among the gentiles, why did Paul bother to mention it? The leaders of the local churches were to perfectly represent Christ and His church in that way. We should keep in mind, as well, that they were not to be single, either. They were to be married to one wife.

I believe I am right in my answer about your example of the Muslim man but I am certainly not dogmatic about it. I just don't see what other answer there could be. I will ask my husband what he thinks. Your example of the muslim man with seven wives is a very good one. I appreciate the opportunity to "dig deep and weigh all of the evidence given", as you said.

May God bless you as well, PaulB :)

Amanda S. 07-21-2009 03:33 PM

Greenbear

Quote:

I would ask why Paul found it necessary to stipulate that bishops, deacons, etc. be husbands of one wife if there were no members of the church who had more than one wife? If only one wife was allowed in those times among the gentiles, why did Paul bother to mention it?
Yes, we have to wonder a great deal of why Paul said certain things don't we? We could wonder that the reason he stipulated that a bishop or deacon be the husband of one wife is to differentiate between the OT where leaders such as Moses were permitted to have more than one wife.

Quote:

I don't think I even need to comment on the question of whether a man can marry a man or a woman a woman. The practice of homosexuality is an abomination to God. Jesus gave the final word on marriage. His words are the final authority on any topic.

Believe it or not I recently got into a rather heated discussion over homosexuality not too long ago. A homeschooling "christian" friend said that while sodomy was wrong and an abomination in the OT the fact that very little if anything was said to the church that it wasn't necessarily wrong. There were things in the OT that were an abomination that we don't consider as an abomination now, according to her argument...I am not at all trying to hijack as this could be debated on another thread but you did remind me of this discourse :)

greenbear 07-21-2009 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24536)
Greenbear



Yes, we have to wonder a great deal of why Paul said certain things don't we? We could wonder that the reason he stipulated that a bishop or deacon be the husband of one wife is to differentiate between the OT where leaders such as Moses were permitted to have more than one wife.




Believe it or not I recently got into a rather heated discussion over homosexuality not too long ago. A homeschooling "christian" friend said that while sodomy was wrong and an abomination in the OT the fact that very little if anything was said to the church that it wasn't necessarily wrong. There were things in the OT that were an abomination that we don't consider as an abomination now, according to her argument...I am not at all trying to hijack as this could be debated on another thread but you did remind me of this discourse :)

Oh, really? I reminded you of that discourse?
What does that have to do with me? I'm tiring of insinuations that I only apply Paul's words as having anything to do with the church. I'm also tiring of false accusations about what I have and haven't said. I think we're through discoursing.

Amanda S. 07-21-2009 04:06 PM

Greenbear,

Quote:

Oh, really? I reminded you of that discourse?
Again no insinuations.

You said and I quote:

Quote:

I don't think I even need to comment on the question of whether a man can marry a man or a woman a woman.
Believe it or not, that is up for debate among some Christians :)

greenbear 07-21-2009 04:38 PM

Quote:

Believe it or not I recently got into a rather heated discussion over homosexuality not too long ago. A homeschooling "christian" friend said that while sodomy was wrong and an abomination in the OT the fact that very little if anything was said to the church that it wasn't necessarily wrong.

OK Amanda, you got me... I'm still discoursing. :)

What did your friend say when you shared these verses with her? These are just from Paul's letters. And sodomy is dealt with by Peter and Jude and John, as well.

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1 Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Amanda S. 07-21-2009 05:18 PM

Greenbear, she stated that homosexuality may not be best, but that we all lie, covet etc and we sin everyday so how is homosexuality now this big bad abomination in the church age. Well, much like the argument that is given for marrying an unbeliever.

Also, that the Lord would not punish someone for the way He made them.

According to her 2 people of a different sex can love each other in a romantic way and as long as they don't sodomize each other then it's acceptable.

Luke 17:34 has 2 men in bed together...

Just her arguments.

greenbear 07-21-2009 05:41 PM

Brother PaulB,

The first words out of my mouth tonight when my poor husband came home from a hard day of work were, very loosely quoted:

Quote:

What would you say to a new convert (a muslim convert) who has come to Christ in repentance and tears, wants to serve Him with all of his heart, but he has seven wives?
I am not playing the devil's advocat - but I am curious as to how we would deal with such a case as Christians (especially if he has had a child with every one of them!
After an unguarded moment of staring at me as if I were a crazy person he asked:

"What country does he live in? What are the laws in that country regarding polygamy?"

After a another few moments of my worried conjecture about how much he has actually thought about this topic in the past, and determining then and there to never agree to move with him to a Muslim country (or Utah, for that matter), I realized that the point he was making is that there is no biblical "law" against having more than one wife. There are, however, laws of human government that we are to obey. If there is a biblical law against multiple wives, we don't know about it. Is it God's perfect will? No.

You cited Jesus:

Mark 10:2-12 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

My husband pointed out the context is about a man putting away his wife. The context is not about whether you should have more than one wife. There is no question that Jesus says that from the beginning God intended one man and one woman. But whether or not a man is allowed to have multiple wives is not the topic He was addressing in that passage.

If you disagree with this, then I have a few questions for you:

Where in scripture does God say that Abraham, Jacob, David sinned by taking more than one wife?

Where does it say in the scriptures that Leah and Rachel weren't both the wives of Jacob?

Where does it say in the scriptures that either Leah's or Rachel's children were illegitimate in God's eyes? Or those of their handmaids (Jacob's other two "wives")?

If there was no biblical law against taking multiple wives back then, when did that change? We are speaking about a law prohibiting the practice. We are not speaking about what is God's perfect will in the matter.

If there is no law given about taking multiple wives in scripture then wouldn't the muslim man be disobeying Jesus by putting away any of his wives according to His own words "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder"?

Your sister In Christ,
and the sole wife of one husband, thanks be to God!

Jennifer

Amanda S. 07-22-2009 10:02 AM

Hi Jessica,

We got off topic with the topic of homosexuality, but I was just curious what you thought of this speculation I had mentioned earlier.

Quote:

Greenbear Quote:
I would ask why Paul found it necessary to stipulate that bishops, deacons, etc. be husbands of one wife if there were no members of the church who had more than one wife? If only one wife was allowed in those times among the gentiles, why did Paul bother to mention it?

Me:
Yes, we have to wonder a great deal of why Paul said certain things don't we? We could wonder that the reason he stipulated that a bishop or deacon be the husband of one wife is to differentiate between the OT where leaders such as Moses were permitted to have more than one wife.
Both are speculations.

PaulB 07-22-2009 10:44 AM

Greenbear
 
Oohhhhhhhhh Greenbear what are you trying to do to me!!!!!!!!

I am not sure whether we will ever see eye to eye on this issue and I’m afraid that if we ever do come to an agreement that I will be inviting you to one of my many weddings to come!

You agree with me that Jesus’ words on the topic are the final authority and then you go on to say “yet” and then go back to your original argument! Those don’t sound like final words of authority to me!

Then you go on to say that God has two wives (Now this I think is a gross error!) God has one wife, which is spiritual Israel Romans 11 makes that very clear. We are simply grafted into the same olive tree as they belong to which is also emphasised in Ephesians 2:12;

“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:”

This does not even hint at the possibility of God having “two wives” the text in itself is pretty clear especially when it is seen in the light of the entire context of Romans chapter 11. So as you can see I do not buy that idea in any way or fashion.

When you raise the issue concerning the qualifications of a bishop having only one wife it seems to me that Paul is ruling out those who have been divorced and then remarried, as such could possibly qualify any adulterer to stand in an ordained position. But a man who has more than one wife isn’t something that I see him addressing here because I don’t see it even as a pagan Roman problem, let alone a gentile church problem. (e.g. Mt.27:19 “When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.)
Pilate had one wife, Acts.24:24 Felix had one wife, Acts.18:2 Pontus had one wife, John.19:25 Cleophas had one wife and so did Annanias! So I don’t see the qualification of a bishop relating to a man with a number of wives, but rather he is ruling out those who have had previous wives.

If (like you & your husband seem to be suggesting) that there are no biblical laws against having more than one wife then what would you call me if I got married again tomorrow? If there are no biblical laws against having more than one wife then what do you think that Exodus.20:14 is? Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Concerning your question “Where in scripture does God say that Abraham, Jacob, David sinned by taking more than one wife? I have already put numerous examples to you in my previous posts. But it is like I said in one of them – where does it show that such actions were given by the command of God?

God intervened in the lives of very imperfect people and He certainly didn’t wait until the vessels that He chose for certain operations in His plan of redemption were without blemish.

Acts.17:30-31 “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”

Your questions are like someone saying, “where does it say in the Bible that there shouldn’t be an eleventh commandment” does God forbid? – then prove it!
The context of marriage is seen very clearly in the teachings of Christ and echoed by Paul and to suggest that Christ is only addressing the subject of “unlawfully putting away a wife” is to miss the entire point that He is making (i.e. the oneness of flesh until death between two people as authorised by God). If it were any other way then He would have made that clear!

Like I said before, why would there be the need to put a wife away if it is all right to have a number of them? It would be absolutely pointless, as all that the Pharisees needed to do was to shift their attention to a new one! The context is clear – they wanted to put away their wives (singular) so that they could justify an occasion for re-marriage and it is this that Jesus is addressing.

To say as you said: “We are speaking about a law prohibiting the practice. We are not speaking about what is God's perfect will in the matter.” Is to defeat the entire issue – what God says is in very essence His perfect will on the matter!

Hb.1: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”

So what Jesus says on the matter is exactly what God says and that is that anything other than the two made one flesh is out of those boundaries.

To follow the ultimate conclusion to your line of reasoning is to suggest that Islam has upheld the right biblical traditions on this matter and that somehow the church has gone astray!

I think that it is much safer to stand on what is clear on this subject than to build on what isn’t clear and that is exactly what I have been presenting to you.

Think about it also - why has Christendom and Judaism (on a global scale) continued to uphold the one man one woman concept of biblical marriage?
Your position on this is not just in opposition to me alone but a great chunk of history.

I honestly don't think that there is much more that I can put your way on this, as your mind does seem to already be made up on the issue.
But please consider my points!

God bless

PaulB

greenbear 07-22-2009 11:19 AM

PaulB,

I have a Dr's appt now so don't have time to read your post until later. My post below is in response to Amanda, just want you to know I haven't even read your response yet. :)

Jennifer

greenbear 07-22-2009 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24564)
Hi Jessica,

We got off topic with the topic of homosexuality, but I was just curious what you thought of this speculation I had mentioned earlier.



Both are speculations.

My quote was based on pure deductive reasoning.

However, I have had just a precursory look at the topic just now.

My additional understanding of polygyny (one man having multiple wives) being practiced by early converts to the apostolic gentile churches, especially in Greek culture (Ephesus and Crete) is based on the fact that "polygamy/polygyny/polyandry" are Greek words and although under Roman (a monogamous culture) rule it was not an uncommon practice among those of means.

Here is more interesting information from Wikipedia:


According to the Ethnographic Atlas Codebook, of the 1231 societies noted, 186 were monogamous. 453 had occasional polygyny, 588 had more frequent polygyny, and 4 had polyandry. Apparently more societies have allowed for polygamous marriages than have not.

Israel

"The State of Israel has made polygamy illegal,[25][26] but in practice the law is not enforced, primarily so as not to interfere with Bedouin culture, where polygamy is common. Provisions were instituted to allow for existing polygamous families immigrating from countries where the practice was legal. Furthermore, former chief rabbi Ovadia Yosef[27] and Israeli columnist Greer Fay Cashman[28] have come out in favor of legalizing polygamy and the practice of pilegesh (concubine) by the Israeli government."

The Hebrew scriptures document approximately forty polygamists. Notable examples include Abraham, who bore for himself a child through his wife's maidservant;[15] Jacob, who had fallen in love with Rachel, but was tricked into marrying her sister, Leah;[16] David, who inherited his wives from Saul;[17] and perhaps most famously, Solomon, who was led astray by his wives.

In practice, multiple marriage was considered a realistic alternative in the case of famine, widowhood, or female infertility.[19] One source of polygamy was the practice of levirate marriage, wherein a man was required to marry and support his deceased brother's widow, as mandated by Deuteronomy 25:5–10

The Torah, Judaism's central text, includes a few specific regulations on the practice of polygamy, such as Exodus 21:10, which states that multiple marriages are not to diminish the status of the first wife (specifically, her right to food, clothing and conjugal relations). Deuteronomy 21:15–17, states that a man must award the inheritance due to a first-born son to the son who was actually born first, even if he hates that son's mother and likes another wife more;[20] and Deuteronomy 17:17 states that the king shall not have too many wives.[21] The king's behavior is condemned by Prophet Samuel in 1Samuel 8. Exodus 21:10 also speaks of Jewish concubines. Israeli lexicographer Vadim Cherny argues that the Torah carefully distinguishes concubines and "sub-standard" wives with prefix "to", lit. "took to wives."[22]

The monogamy of the Roman Empire was the cause of two explanatory notes in the writings of Josephus describing how the polygamous marriages of Herod were permitted under Jewish custom.

The State of Israel has made polygamy illegal,[25][26] but in practice the law is not enforced, primarily so as not to interfere with Bedouin culture, where polygamy is common. Provisions were instituted to allow for existing polygamous families immigrating from countries where the practice was legal. Furthermore, former chief rabbi Ovadia Yosef[27] and Israeli columnist Greer Fay Cashman[28] have come out in favor of legalizing polygamy and the practice of pilegesh (concubine) by the Israeli government.

Church history

Some fifteen years earlier, in a letter to the Saxon Chancellor Gregor Brück, Luther stated that he could not "forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture." ("Ego sane fateor, me non posse prohibere, si quis plures velit uxores ducere, nec repugnat sacris literis.")

"On February 14, 1650, the parliament at Nürnberg decreed that, because so many men were killed during the Thirty Years’ War, the churches for the following ten years could not admit any man under the age of 60 into a monastery. Priests and ministers not bound by any monastery were allowed to marry. Lastly, the decree stated that every man was allowed to marry up to ten women. The men were admonished to behave honorably, provide for their wives properly, and prevent animosity among them."

In Sub-Saharan Africa, there has often been a tension between the Christian churches' insistence on monogamy and traditional polygamy. In some instances in recent times there have been moves for accommodation; in others churches have resisted such moves strongly. African Independent Churches have sometimes referred to those parts of the Old Testament which describe polygamy in defending the practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Christianity

CKG 07-22-2009 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 24542)
Brother PaulB,

The first words out of my mouth tonight when my poor husband came home from a hard day of work were, very loosely quoted:



After an unguarded moment of staring at me as if I were a crazy person he asked:

"What country does he live in? What are the laws in that country regarding polygamy?"

After a another few moments of my worried conjecture about how much he has actually thought about this topic in the past, and determining then and there to never agree to move with him to a Muslim country (or Utah, for that matter), I realized that the point he was making is that there is no biblical "law" against having more than one wife. There are, however, laws of human government that we are to obey. If there is a biblical law against multiple wives, we don't know about it. Is it God's perfect will? No.

You cited Jesus:

Mark 10:2-12 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

My husband pointed out the context is about a man putting away his wife. The context is not about whether you should have more than one wife. There is no question that Jesus says that from the beginning God intended one man and one woman. But whether or not a man is allowed to have multiple wives is not the topic He was addressing in that passage.

If you disagree with this, then I have a few questions for you:

Where in scripture does God say that Abraham, Jacob, David sinned by taking more than one wife?

Where does it say in the scriptures that Leah and Rachel weren't both the wives of Jacob?

Where does it say in the scriptures that either Leah's or Rachel's children were illegitimate in God's eyes? Or those of their handmaids (Jacob's other two "wives")?

If there was no biblical law against taking multiple wives back then, when did that change? We are speaking about a law prohibiting the practice. We are not speaking about what is God's perfect will in the matter.

If there is no law given about taking multiple wives in scripture then wouldn't the muslim man be disobeying Jesus by putting away any of his wives according to His own words "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder"?

Your sister In Christ,
and the sole wife of one husband, thanks be to God!

Jennifer

I'm not good at answering multiple quotes so bear with me.

Greenbear - "My husband pointed out the context is about a man putting away his wife."

True, but in answering their question about putting away, Jesus points out God's original intentions for marriage.
Matthew 19 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife (not wives): and they twain (two) shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain (two), but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Why did Moses allow putting away? Because of the hardness of their hearts. They were not interested in honoring God's original intentions for marriage.

Greenbear - Where in scripture does God say that Abraham, Jacob, David sinned by taking more than one wife?

Where in scripture does it say God commended or encouraged anyone to take more than one wife? Obviously God allowed it, but when you study the lives of Jacob, David, and Solomon you will see their biggest problems were family issues. They are certainly not commendable examples to follow for raising Godly families.

When you read the commandments God gave to Israel there is nothing said that would encourage or commend multiple wives. For instance in Exodus 20:17 God said
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife (singular), nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
The assumption was that they, Israel - God's chosen people, would honor His original intentions for marriage.

It's interesting that when you get to Jesus' earthly ministry and the rest of the new testament books there is only one mention that even remotely comes close to suggesting multiple spouses and that was when Jesus encountered the woman of Samaria (John 4) and even then it doesn't say she had had 5 husbands at the same time. God allowed folks like Jacob, David, and Solomon to have multiple wives, but he also allowed them to suffer the consequences of those unions. I haven't checked this out, but I'm thinking once the Babylonian capitivity was over and the Jews returned to the land polygamy was never a problem again.

CKG 07-22-2009 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKG (Post 24573)
Matthew 19 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
.

Actually with this statement, our Lord Jesus has refuted divorce, polygamy, and homosexuality. Paul reinforces this in Ephesians 5:31.

Amanda S. 07-22-2009 12:31 PM

Quote:

Greenbear: Here is more interesting information from Wikipedia:
Well, as long as we're posting interesting information -


Quote:

But first the historical setting:


1. Polygamy was NOT practiced in Greek and Roman societies of the time:


"Even though we may find numerous traces of polygamy and polyandry in the Gk. myths, monogamy predominated in the Gk. world in the historical period. Morality within marriage was strict. The Homeric hero had one wife, who was faithful and inviolable, a good manager of the home and mother. Gk. marriage was monogamous. [NIDNTT:s.v. "Marriage, adultery, bride, bridegroom"]


"Polygamy was not practiced in the Roman world outside Palestine, though illegal bigamy and certainly adultery were. [EBC: in.loc. 1 Tim 3]


2. Polygamy was practiced somewhat in 1st century Palestinian Judaism (by the government/aristocratic leaders):

"In the Second Temple period, Jewish society was, at least theoretically, polygamous, like other oriental societies of the time but in contrast to the neighboring Greek and Roman societies...."[HI:JWGRP:85]

"There is evidence of the practice of polygamy in Palestinian Judaism in NT times (cf. J. Jeremias, Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus: An Investigation into Economic and Social Conditions during the New Testament Period, 1969, 90, 93, 369f.). Herod the Great (37-4 B.C.) had ten wives (Josephus, Ant. 17, 19f.; War 1,562) and a considerable harem (War 1,511). Polygamy and concubinage among the aristocracy is attested by Josephus, Ant. 12, 186ff.; 13, 380; War 1, 97. The continued practice of levirate marriage (Yeb. 15b) evidently led to polygamy, which was countenanced by the school of Shammai but not by that of Hillel. [NIDNTT:s.v. "Marriage, adultery, bride, bridegroom"]

3. Among the Jews, it was not accepted by the prestigious school of Hillel (above), nor by the strict Dead Sea Sect (Qumran), and was not widely practiced, esp. among the rabbi's:

"But even if polygamy was permitted by tannaitic halakhah, other halakhic systems counseled otherwise. During the Second Temple period, monogamy was preferred even on the conceptual plane by, above all, the Dead Sea Sect whose halakhah explicitly prohibited polygamy. In the reworked version of the statutes of the king in the Temple Scroll, it is stated: "he shall not take another wife in addition to her, for she alone shall be with him all the days of her life" (LVII 17-8). In the Damascus Covenant, criticism is leveled against the 'builders of the wall' (Pharisees?) in the following terms: 'they shall be caught in fornication twice; once by taking a second wife while the first is still alive...' [HI:JWGRP:85]

"it was known in Jewish society as represented in rabbinic literature, polygamy was not widespread in practice, especially not among the sages themselves." [HI:JWGRP:86]

So, polygamy was present only in a particular subset of Palestinian Judaism (not in Roman society, Greek society, Diaspora Jewish communities, the Hillel-school, or Dead Sea Sect), and generally confined to the aristocracy.

greenbear 07-22-2009 05:17 PM

CKG.

CKG's
Quote:

Obviously God allowed it
Exactly! I can't say I disagree with anything you wrote. I'm glad we agree, brother.:)

P.S. What would you counsel this muslim gentleman to do about his seven wives?

Jennifer

greenbear 07-22-2009 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24579)
Well, as long as we're posting interesting information -

Amanda,

Maybe. I don't know for sure. Is your source wiki?

Jennifer

greenbear 07-22-2009 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulB (Post 24566)
Oohhhhhhhhh Greenbear what are you trying to do to me!!!!!!!!

I am not sure whether we will ever see eye to eye on this issue and I’m afraid that if we ever do come to an agreement that I will be inviting you to one of my many weddings to come!

You agree with me that Jesus’ words on the topic are the final authority and then you go on to say “yet” and then go back to your original argument! Those don’t sound like final words of authority to me!

Then you go on to say that God has two wives (Now this I think is a gross error!) God has one wife, which is spiritual Israel Romans 11 makes that very clear. We are simply grafted into the same olive tree as they belong to which is also emphasised in Ephesians 2:12;

“That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:”

This does not even hint at the possibility of God having “two wives” the text in itself is pretty clear especially when it is seen in the light of the entire context of Romans chapter 11. So as you can see I do not buy that idea in any way or fashion.

When you raise the issue concerning the qualifications of a bishop having only one wife it seems to me that Paul is ruling out those who have been divorced and then remarried, as such could possibly qualify any adulterer to stand in an ordained position. But a man who has more than one wife isn’t something that I see him addressing here because I don’t see it even as a pagan Roman problem, let alone a gentile church problem. (e.g. Mt.27:19 “When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.)
Pilate had one wife, Acts.24:24 Felix had one wife, Acts.18:2 Pontus had one wife, John.19:25 Cleophas had one wife and so did Annanias! So I don’t see the qualification of a bishop relating to a man with a number of wives, but rather he is ruling out those who have had previous wives.

If (like you & your husband seem to be suggesting) that there are no biblical laws against having more than one wife then what would you call me if I got married again tomorrow? If there are no biblical laws against having more than one wife then what do you think that Exodus.20:14 is? Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Concerning your question “Where in scripture does God say that Abraham, Jacob, David sinned by taking more than one wife? I have already put numerous examples to you in my previous posts. But it is like I said in one of them – where does it show that such actions were given by the command of God?

God intervened in the lives of very imperfect people and He certainly didn’t wait until the vessels that He chose for certain operations in His plan of redemption were without blemish.

Acts.17:30-31 “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”

Your questions are like someone saying, “where does it say in the Bible that there shouldn’t be an eleventh commandment” does God forbid? – then prove it!
The context of marriage is seen very clearly in the teachings of Christ and echoed by Paul and to suggest that Christ is only addressing the subject of “unlawfully putting away a wife” is to miss the entire point that He is making (i.e. the oneness of flesh until death between two people as authorised by God). If it were any other way then He would have made that clear!

Like I said before, why would there be the need to put a wife away if it is all right to have a number of them? It would be absolutely pointless, as all that the Pharisees needed to do was to shift their attention to a new one! The context is clear – they wanted to put away their wives (singular) so that they could justify an occasion for re-marriage and it is this that Jesus is addressing.

To say as you said: “We are speaking about a law prohibiting the practice. We are not speaking about what is God's perfect will in the matter.” Is to defeat the entire issue – what God says is in very essence His perfect will on the matter!

Hb.1: “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”

So what Jesus says on the matter is exactly what God says and that is that anything other than the two made one flesh is out of those boundaries.

To follow the ultimate conclusion to your line of reasoning is to suggest that Islam has upheld the right biblical traditions on this matter and that somehow the church has gone astray!

I think that it is much safer to stand on what is clear on this subject than to build on what isn’t clear and that is exactly what I have been presenting to you.

Think about it also - why has Christendom and Judaism (on a global scale) continued to uphold the one man one woman concept of biblical marriage?
Your position on this is not just in opposition to me alone but a great chunk of history.

I honestly don't think that there is much more that I can put your way on this, as your mind does seem to already be made up on the issue.
But please consider my points!

God bless

PaulB

Paul,

Apparently our views are so different that it would take too long to merely reach an understanding, if that would even be possible. I don't have that kind of time, as I know you don't. Let's just agree to leave it at that.

Jennifer

johnlf 07-22-2009 06:19 PM

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother: 3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity. 4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

5 And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,

36 The LORD said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations; 37 That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.

43 Then said I unto her that was old in adulteries, Will they now commit whoredoms with her, and she with them? 44 Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women. 45 And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.

Ezekiel 23
King James Bible

God describes both Samaria and Jerusalem as adulteresses against him. There is nothing in the Bible saying it is a sin to have more than one wife. But it is clearly a sin for a woman to have more than one husband. These are types. I you do not understand the typology, you can never understand why this is so.

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Romans 7
King James Bible

This is not said of the man, but of the woman, again the same typology:

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 11
King James Bible

This is not something I would seek to be contentious about. Nevertheless, to seek to impose modern human traditions of western society upon biblical typologies is a grave error. It is a sin for a woman to have more than one husband but it is not a sin for a man to have more than one wife.

The sole reason it is a sin today is that it is breaking the civil law of the nation that defines bigamy, and we are to obey the laws of the land we live in. Anything more than this is in my opinion simply adding to God's Word by reading into it modern traditions.

CKG 07-22-2009 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 24587)
CKG.

CKG's


Exactly! I can't say I disagree with anything you wrote. I'm glad we agree, brother.:)

P.S. What would you counsel this muslim gentleman to do about his seven wives?

Jennifer

I hope I never have to deal with such a situation. Of course if this Muslim gentleman lived in the United States I would point out to him the laws of our country. If he lived in a country that allowed polygamy then that would be a different story. I could tell him to remain in the situation that he is in, but I would also have to remind him that God's original purpose in marriage was one man and one woman. Of course if he were saved would he still be a Muslim? :)

CKG 07-22-2009 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulB (Post 24464)
What would I say to a new convert (a muslim convert) who has come to Christ in repentance and tears, wants to serve Him with all of his heart, but he has seven wives?

PaulB

Just out of curiosity what difference would it make whether he came in tears or not? :)

CKG 07-22-2009 08:20 PM

I don't think any of us are going to get too up tight over the polygamy issue because, let's face it, most of us aren't going to actually ever have to deal with it. But the topic does test us and make us look in the scriptures more closely. I still stand by my statement that God's original intention was one man for one woman and that He allowed for multiple wives. I'm still searching but I don't see any polygamous relationships for the Jews after the Babylonian captivity and no born again believers in the Bible had multiple wives.

God stated it.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Jesus and Paul reaffirmed it.
Matthew 19:4-6 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

1 Corinthians 7:1-2 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

greenbear 07-22-2009 08:39 PM

CKG,

CKG:and even then it doesn't say she had had 5 husbands at the same time.

I had to laugh because I thought if she was a 5 time widow no wonder the sixth wouldn't marry her!

We don't exactly line up on our views but it's nothing worth quibbling about.
The typology is a very interesting study.

Amanda S. 07-22-2009 08:54 PM

Quote:

Jennifer asked Amanda,

Maybe. I don't know for sure. Is your source wiki?

Nooooo...Is Wiki the only thing that can be quoted here? I missed that rule.

Is Wiki THE source to go to?

?

Amanda S. 07-22-2009 09:09 PM

Quote:

CKG said:

I don't think any of us are going to get too up tight over the polygamy issue because, let's face it, most of us aren't going to actually ever have to deal with it.
Well, I myself am completely appalled at the turn this thread had taken and am very seriously considering unsubscribing.

It is very serious and worth getting uptight over.

greenbear 07-22-2009 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24596)
Nooooo...Is Wiki the only thing that can be quoted here? I missed that rule.

Is Wiki THE source to go to?

?

I was just wondering if it was online so I could read it.

greenbear 07-23-2009 12:22 AM

Unless every family in Israel kept a spare single son on hand then it seems God commanded the taking of another wife in the this event, no?

Deuteronomy 25:5-10 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel. And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother. Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her; Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house. And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

CKG 07-23-2009 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24597)
Well, I myself am completely appalled at the turn this thread had taken and am very seriously considering unsubscribing.

It is very serious and worth getting uptight over.

I apologize if I have said anything to offend you and I may have to retract an earlier statement I made. With the way things are going with homosexual unions in our country we may have to face the issue of polygamy one day.

CKG 07-23-2009 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 24607)
Unless every family in Israel kept a spare single son on hand then it seems God commanded the taking of another wife in the this event, no?

Deuteronomy 25:5-10 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel. And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother. Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her; Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house. And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

This was a unique situation given under the law to the Jew and does not sanction polygamy. I'm having somewhat of a difficulty understanding this preoccupation with running to Old Testament passages in an attempt to sanction something for born again believers in the church age.

We know God's will for marriage.
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Jesus, whose ministry was during the time of the Law reaffirmed it.
Matthew 19:4-6 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Paul, in the church age, the apostle to the gentiles also reaffirmed it.
Ephesians 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

1 Corinthians 7:1-2 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Amanda S. 07-23-2009 08:13 AM

Bro. Craig,

Quote:

I apologize if I have said anything to offend you and I may have to retract an earlier statement I made. With the way things are going with homosexual unions in our country we may have to face the issue of polygamy one day.
Thank you brother. I am just dumb founded that anyone could suggest that ploygamy was "allowed"?

I have never heard the word "allowed" so much before in my life until I came here LoL

Maybe I am confused. I'll fully admit that.

But when there is an "Ah HAH!" moment and one discovers God "allowed" something to go on and so therefore we say it must not be so bad, then I have a problem with that. Especially when the Bible is PERFECTLY clear on what GOD considers a marriage!?!? Or is it being said that while having 1 wife is God's "perfect" will His "acceptable" will is polygamy as long as it is legal!?

We have a free will. God allows us to do as we wish. He does not make us do anything. But this is something we all know.

I see no verses where God blesses or condones polygamy. Even the verses in Deuteronomy 25 I am failing to see multiple wives? I've read it a dozen times and I certainly must be deft. LoL

Again, I am not offended but highly disturbed by some comments made with supposed Bible and history to back it up.

I would love to see Bro. Brandon chime in on this thread.

PaulB 07-23-2009 08:18 AM

Amanda
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24597)
Well, I myself am completely appalled at the turn this thread had taken and am very seriously considering unsubscribing.

It is very serious and worth getting uptight over.

Hi Amanda - please don't leave the forum I think that the questions and the points that you raise are very valuable and I also love interacting with you!

The reason that I added the Muslim issue was because I see Islam multipying at an alarming rate throughout the west, and there is a reason for that. I believe that some of them will get saved and that these are issues that churches will shortly be having to deal with if theye already aren't!

Please stay with us sis as your are a very valuable member!

By the way Craig "with tears" was just a way of expressing that he was a genuine convert and not a simple church addition!


God bless

PaulB;)

Amanda S. 07-23-2009 08:44 AM

Bro. Paul,

After talking with my husband I've decided to stick around awhile longer as we both feel that this forum is helping motivate me to understand and study my Bible more. For that I am grateful.

Bro. Paul, nothing you said offended me. I wasn't upset by the Muslim w/ 7 wives question, because when discussing these things I ALWAYS like to throw in a hypothetical. :D LoL Drives my dearest hubby insane.

And as you said, it very well might be something we'll need to deal with before our Lord raptures us out of here! Even so come quickly Lord Jesus!!

But I was in shock for 1/2 the day when I saw that the Bible was being used to support such practice!?

Thank you Bro. for your kind words and am looking forward to more discourse with you.

greenbear 07-23-2009 09:45 AM

This is an instance where the Law of Moses prescribes taking another wife in a certain situation. If it's in the Law then I daresay God didn't frown on the practice as has been maintained by some. Exodus 21:10-11, regulations on the practice of polygamy. Deuteronomy 21:15–17, inheritance to go to the first-born son, even if he hates his mother and loves another wife better. Deuteronomy 17:7, instructions on a king not taking too many wives.

Matthew 19:3-10 and Mark 10:5-12 Jesus was answering a question about the putting away of a wife. He stated that a man and his wife are no more twain, but one flesh. He isn't addressing the issue of multiple wives in this passage or in Mark 10. Was not Jacob one flesh with each of his wives?

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

I believe monogamy is the type for Christ and His church. However, unbelievers don't necessarily live by that type in some cultures. If a man comes to Christ with more than one wife, if we require that he abandon his wives and children, we are requiring him to disobey Jesus' clear statement, as well as Paul's.

Clearly, some people have a problem with this, but in my humble opinion, your problem is not with me but with God's word.

CKG 07-23-2009 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24620)
Bro. Paul,

After talking with my husband I've decided to stick around awhile longer as we both feel that this forum is helping motivate me to understand and study my Bible more. For that I am grateful.

Bro. Paul, nothing you said offended me. I wasn't upset by the Muslim w/ 7 wives question, because when discussing these things I ALWAYS like to throw in a hypothetical. :D LoL Drives my dearest hubby insane.

And as you said, it very well might be something we'll need to deal with before our Lord raptures us out of here! Even so come quickly Lord Jesus!!

But I was in shock for 1/2 the day when I saw that the Bible was being used to support such practice!?

Thank you Bro. for your kind words and am looking forward to more discourse with you.

I think this is the best forum I've seen because (1) no KJV correctors are allowed and (2) you just can't throw out anything and get away with it. You have to give some sound scriptural reasoning for what you are saying or folks here will cease bothering with your posts.

For me "allow" does not equal "condone". Just because God allowed certain things doesn't mean He condoned them. There are a lot of lost people who are being allowed to do things (they think) they are getting away with, but one day they will give an account at the Great White Throne Judgment. Most of the people previosuly listed who had the mutiple wives paid for it with family problems.

If I had been thinking last night I probably wouldn't have given my reply about the poor Muslim guy and his seven wives. I'm not saying a situation like that hasn't come up somewhere in the world, but its highly unlikely I will ever be consulted about it. We can come up with all kinds of "what if" situations that will, if we're not careful, only detract us. We have to stick with what we know and we all know God's will for marriage.

Amanda S. 07-23-2009 10:22 AM

Quote:

Greenbear said - And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

I believe monogamy is the type for Christ and His church. However, unbelievers don't necessarily live by that type in some cultures. If a man comes to Christ with more than one wife, if we require that he abandon his wives and children, we are requiring him to disobey Jesus' clear statement, as well as Paul's.
If we don't require that he abandon this lifestyle we are allowing him to fornicate and therefore we will have to put him away from the fellowship of the believers.

Paul says - I Cor. 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.


Quote:

I Cor 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
And please do not use this verse to defend having more than one wife!? The context is completely having to do with believers and unbelievers staying married! If one is going to use this verse to defend polygamy then one must use it to defend homosexuality.

Quote:

Greenbear said: Clearly, some people have a problem with this, but in my humble opinion, your problem is not with me but with God's word.
And in my humble opinion, my problem is with you on this subject as I completely understand what the Scriptures say regarding this.

Amanda S. 07-23-2009 11:14 AM

In the above post I should have said use it to defend "same-sex marriage"...Ugh I hate wording it that way...

PaulB 07-23-2009 11:18 AM

Good points Amanda!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24627)
If we don't require that he abandon this lifestyle we are allowing him to fornicate and therefore we will have to put him away from the fellowship of the believers.

Paul says - I Cor. 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.




And please do not use this verse to defend having more than one wife!? The context is completely having to do with believers and unbelievers staying married! If one is going to use this verse to defend polygamy then one must use it to defend homosexuality.



And in my humble opinion, my problem is with you on this subject as I completely understand what the Scriptures say regarding this.


Well said Amanda, I also have no problem with God's word (I have used it all the way through this subject and never out of its context!)

Personally, I don't think that this thread can keep going in this direction much longer. In a way I wish I hadn't presented the 7 wives situation - My intent was to provoke additional thought on the matter for healthy interaction but when people start getting accused of having a problem with God's word (I wonder who?) then what else can I say.

I have no bitter feelings towards Greenbear as she is my sister in Christ, plus a healthy interaction about biblical subjects are always beneficial. But I cannot accept the way that some passages of Scripture are being presented to defend the very thing that they are speaking against.

I feel for Brandon and the rest of the folks on the forum because things like this could prove to be the final straw (I sincerely hope not).

If it has gone too far then I will say that I am sorry to all of you for raising the question in the first place.

God bless

PaulB

Amanda S. 07-23-2009 12:43 PM

Quote:

Greenbear said:Unless every family in Israel kept a spare single son on hand then it seems God commanded the taking of another wife in the this event, no?

Deuteronomy 25:5-10
Aaaaaaaahhhhh....ok.....I had missed this speculation earlier.

I read this passage umpteen times trying to find the second wife in this passage and I honestly thought I had a screw loose LoL I then asked my husband to point out the 2nd wife and he said obviously it's not there.

It is mere speculation that there was no single brother for her to marry. Is there an instance at all in the Scripture where this was carried out and the brother had another wife?

Amanda S. 07-23-2009 01:45 PM

Was Bathsheba David's last wife?


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