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boaz212 04-29-2009 06:05 PM

Question on John 6
 
I had a discussion with some friends who believe in predestination taught by John Calvin. One of their strongest argument is based on John 6.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Their emphasis is on the drawing of the Father, without which no one can come to Christ to be saved. Therefore, their conclusion is that the Father chooses whom He would save and give them to His Son so they can believe on Him. And no man can come and believe on Christ if the Father chooses not to save him by drawing him to His Son.
I don't believe Calvin's understanding of predestination because the scriptures do teach the contrary. So my questions are: on what basis does the Father "draw" and "give" sinners to Christ so they will get saved? And what do sinners need to do to either not get "drawn" or get "drawn" by the Father unto salvation?

So far, I think this verse below may explain part of the questions. Those who will "hear" and "learn" from the Father by their own choice will be "drawn" and those refuse will not be. Does it make sense so far? Please feel free to share your insights and understanding with me. Thanks!!

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Winman 04-29-2009 07:30 PM

Show them John 12:32

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Now, read this carefully. Jesus said he will draw all men to himself. So every man is drawn to Christ. But that does not mean everyone will be saved, and John 6:44 does not say that every person who is drawn will be saved either.
It says that everyone who is saved will be drawn by Jesus to himself. Big difference.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

You love Jesus because he first loved you and revealed his love for you by dying on the cross for you, bearing your sins upon himself, and rising from the dead. He introduced himself to you, you did not go looking for him.

You know, when I was 11 years old, a neighbor who had been a missionary asked if she could take myself and brother to church. My Dad let us go. That day the Pastor preached about the torments of hell, and I tell you, it scared me to death. And he told how Jesus died for me in my place, so that I would not have to suffer for my sins. Then the Pastor invited anyone down who wanted to receive Jesus as their Savior. Man, I jumped out of my seat and almost ran down. I wanted to be saved NOW!

I was just a boy, I didn't think that much on those kind of things. But God sent someone to bring me to church and hear his Word. His Word created faith in my heart and I got saved that day by asking Jesus to forgive all my sins and to come into my heart. But Jesus came after me, I did not go after him. And when I heard God's Word, it drew me to Jesus.

chette777 04-29-2009 09:00 PM

Who was John written too? Is it before the Cross or After the cross? Why did Jesus Say what he said in light of the OT?

right division and context is needed in such verses. it in no wise teaches Calvinism

peopleoftheway 04-30-2009 06:08 AM

There is little profit in engaging a Calvinist in study or debate, to accept all 5 points of Calvinism you have to be rooted in that horrible doctrine, It appalls me when I look at how scripture has been wrested by John Calvin and accepted by many many people as Doctrine, even when refuted CLEARLY with scripture is twisted furthermore to fit.

2 Peter 3:14-16 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I believe in the "Whosoevers's" of scripture, point your finds a few chapters before and on in John, although im sure Calvinists have a way of twisting the whosoever's also.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life
.

John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Thats the "whosoever's" from John, there are many many more in scripture that testify WHOSOEVER

And FINALLY in Scripture

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
:amen:

boaz212 04-30-2009 06:17 PM

Thanks for responding to my question. The "whosoever" verses did not make a dent in their thinking. I also used John 13:32. They are stuck on this chapter on the Father drawing the people to Christ for salvation as their basis for predestination.
Now I am trying to look into the scripture to see why these people were not drawn.
Chette, I am following up on your "hint". Feel free to elaborate if you have the chance too. :D

Winman 05-01-2009 10:43 AM

Quote:

Thanks for responding to my question. The "whosoever" verses did not make a dent in their thinking. I also used John 13:32. They are stuck on this chapter on the Father drawing the people to Christ for salvation as their basis for predestination.
Now I am trying to look into the scripture to see why these people were not drawn.
Chette, I am following up on your "hint". Feel free to elaborate if you have the chance too.
You did not pay attention to my post. God's Word says every man is drawn to Christ. It does not say that every person who is drawn will be saved, it says that every person who gets saved was drawn to Christ.

You see, that is important. It is Jesus who saves us 100%. We cannot claim we have a good heart and that we chose Jesus. No, we are all ungodly, all wicked sinners. It is only when God's Word creates faith in the hearts of those who hear and believe God's Word that a person gets saved. If Jesus did not come to you first, you would have never gone to him.

And not to criticize Chette, because we are told to diligently study and rightly divide the Word, but you know, sometimes you just need to read the Bible and listen to what it says, and not worry all about these dispensations and all that stuff. Man, there are people that can explain all this theological stuff to you forward and backwards who do not believe God's Word one bit, and are not saved. God did not give us the Word to be intellectuals. God's Word is for every person, whether small or great, intellectual or simple. You do not need to attend a seminary to hear God's Word, be saved and serve the Lord.

Some people are so busy studying the Bible like it is a science, that they do not bother to actually listen to what God is saying, often in very simple and straightforward language. This intellectual stuff is nothing but PRIDE plain and simple. I am not saying every one who diligently studies the Bible is on an ego trip, but sadly, many are.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

You know what children have that adults do not have? Humility and simple child-like faith. They do not care if they are more intellectual than other children or adults. And they do not question God's Word, they hear it and believe. I forgot the exact numbers, but many years ago I read a study that showed that most Christians accepted Christ as a child, something like 90% or more. I myself was only 11 years old when I accepted Jesus. I am so glad that God was merciful and came after me when I was young. I have wondered that if I had not got saved then, would my heart have hardened against the Gospel as I got older?

I'll never know, but I thank the Lord for coming to me as a child. I couldn't care less about all this theological science, I just knew I was a sinner and that Jesus loved me and died for me, and that he would forgive me and save me from my sins if I would simply pray and ask him to. That was the greatest day of my life, nothing in my adulthood could possibly surpass it.

Winman 05-01-2009 11:44 AM

Here are some verses to show your friends.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

OK, how do you get faith to receive Jesus as your Saviour? You must hear the Word of God. This does not mean to simply hear the audible sound, it means to geniunely listen and take God's Word to heart, to trust and believe his Word.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

You know, when my son was about 2 years old, he kept trying to reach up and touch a lightbulb on a lamp. I said, "Don't touch that, its very hot!" He dropped his hand but slyly smiled at me and reached up again. Again, I told him not to touch the light, because it was very hot and would burn him. He dropped his hand again, then again gave me a sly little smile and reached up to touch the light. This time I said, "OK, go ahead and touch it.". He did touch the light with his finger and immediately screamed in pain, and ran crying to his mother. She of course came in and wanted to know what happened, and I explained that he kept trying to touch the light, and that I had repeatedly warned him it was hot and would burn him, but that he wouldn't listen, so I allowed him to touch the light.

So you see, my son heard me. You should have seen his little devious smile, it is amazing how intelligent a small child can be. He knew quite well he was defying me, and even delighted in it. He heard my words, but he did not believe he would come to any harm. Well, he learned the hard way that Dad was telling the truth, and never again attempted to touch a light bulb that was on. :)

And you see that in Rom 10:21. God's had been diligently (all day long)stretching out his arms and calling Israel to himself. He was drawing every single one of them. But they refused to listen and come to him and so were not saved.

So, you can be drawn but not saved.

CKG 05-01-2009 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boaz212 (Post 18900)
I had a discussion with some friends who believe in predestination taught by John Calvin. One of their strongest argument is based on John 6.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Their emphasis is on the drawing of the Father, without which no one can come to Christ to be saved. Therefore, their conclusion is that the Father chooses whom He would save and give them to His Son so they can believe on Him. And no man can come and believe on Christ if the Father chooses not to save him by drawing him to His Son.
I don't believe Calvin's understanding of predestination because the scriptures do teach the contrary. So my questions are: on what basis does the Father "draw" and "give" sinners to Christ so they will get saved? And what do sinners need to do to either not get "drawn" or get "drawn" by the Father unto salvation?

So far, I think this verse below may explain part of the questions. Those who will "hear" and "learn" from the Father by their own choice will be "drawn" and those refuse will not be. Does it make sense so far? Please feel free to share your insights and understanding with me. Thanks!!

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

There was always a Jewish remnant that was faithful to God. There was that faithful few (Zacharias, Elisabeth, Simeon, Anna, John the Baptist, the disciples…etc) who were looking for the coming Messiah and these were the ones that the Father gave to Jesus. Someone once asked what happened to a Jew who died before the cross since the new birth and sealing of the Holy Spirit was not yet occurring. Jesus made it plain what would happen; “all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day”, the all referring to those faithful Jews waiting for the Messiah and then believing Jesus was he.


THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Luke 1:5)

And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. (Luke 2:25)

And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. (Luke 2:36-37)

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (John 1:19-23)

One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. (John 1:40-41)

George 05-11-2009 11:49 AM

Re: "Question on John 6" - Brother Winman
 
Aloha brother Winman,

This Post is in regards to some of the comments you made on 05-01-2009 > AV1611 Bible Forums > Bible Studies > Question on John 6 > Post #6

Quote:

And not to criticize Chette, because we are told to diligently study and rightly divide the Word, but you know, sometimes you just need to read the Bible and listen to what it says, and not worry all about these dispensations and all that stuff. Man, there are people that can explain all this theological stuff to you forward and backwards who do not believe God's Word one bit, and are not saved. God did not give us the Word to be intellectuals. God's Word is for every person, whether small or great, intellectual or simple. You do not need to attend a seminary to hear God's Word, be saved and serve the Lord.”

Some people are so busy studying the Bible like it is a science, that they do not bother to actually listen to what God is saying, often in very simple and straightforward language. This intellectual stuff is nothing but PRIDE plain and simple. I am not saying every one who diligently studies the Bible is on an ego trip, but sadly, many are.


2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

You know what children have that adults do not have? Humility and simple child-like faith. They do not care if they are more intellectual than other children or adults. And they do not question God's Word, they hear it and believe. I forgot the exact numbers, but many years ago I read a study that showed that most Christians accepted Christ as a child, something like 90% or more. I myself was only 11 years old when I accepted Jesus. I am so glad that God was merciful and came after me when I was young. I have wondered that if I had not got saved then, would my heart have hardened against the Gospel as I got older?”

I'll never know, but I thank the Lord for coming to me as a child. I couldn't care less about all this theological science, I just knew I was a sinner and that Jesus loved me and died for me, and that he would forgive me and save me from my sins if I would simply pray and ask him to. That was the greatest day of my life, nothing in my adulthood could possibly surpass it.”

I think we have to clarify WHERE we Christians are to be “as” children, and WHERE we are NOT to be “as” children. The following comments are not meant to castigate, demean, or embarrass you – I am just putting them out for you to think about.

When it comes to God’s people being “as” or “like” children the following verses of Scripture are our “guide” as to WHERE this applies:

We are to be as or like children in “Attitude”, “Qualities” of Character, and “Faith”

Matthew 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven
. {ATTITUDE}
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
{ATTITUDE}
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


Matthew 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
{QUALITIES}
15
And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

Mark 9:33 And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.
36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,
37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.
{ATTITUDE}

Mark 10:13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the
kingdom of God. {QUALITIES}
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the
kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. {FAITH}
16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.


Luke 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.
{ATTITUDE}

Luke 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
{ATTITUDE}

Luke 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the
kingdom of God. {QUALITIES}
17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the
kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. {ATTITUDE}


We are to be as or like MEN (not children) in “Learning” & “Judgment”

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. {LEARNING}
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity
.

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
{JUDGMENT}
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


1 Corinthians 10:15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. {JUDGMENT}

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. {LEARNING}
13
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. {LEARNING}
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
{JUDGMENT}

I believe that there are at least three major "failings" that almost all so-called Bible believing churches (all others are not in view) in America today are guilty of: No. 1. = The lack of true WORSHIP of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ [John 4:23-24]; No. 2 = A lack of genuine LOVE for God – [2 Thessalonians 3:5; Jude 1:21}; and N0. 3. = The failure to TEACH – “HOW TO STUDY THE BIBLE” [2 Timothy 2:15].

The first two “failures” eventually leads to making the cross of Christ of “none effect” [1 Corinthians 1:17]. And the third “failure” eventually leads to making the word of God of “none effect” [Mark 7:13]

As to the first two “failures”, I recommend that you check out brother Forrest Wychopen’s Posts on this Forum and his Web Site: http://www.christdirected.com/ <> I know of no other person on this Forum that is better suited to comment on these matters than brother Forrest – he has been a real blessing to me and has helped me to reexamine my attitude towards my SAVIOUR, the LORD Jesus Christ, and reevaluate my relationship with Him.

As to the third “failure”, I have plenty to say about that! Most of the genuine Bible believing churches today in America (all others are not in view) are focusing on the “cult of personality”; that is, they focus on a man - the “PASTOR”, and NOT the Lord Jesus Christ. Or they emphasize the “CHURCH” (the “WORK”) and NOT the Holy word of God.

In doing so, these churches are producing “passive” Christians who “tithe”; give offerings; and attend most (if not all) church services and functions; but who (sadly) DO NOT STUDY the Holy Scriptures on their own; and who, are NOT encouraged to study God’s word; and who are NOT instructed on HOW to study the Holy Bible; and who (personally) know very little Bible other than what little they “hear” from the “pulpit”. They depend on a man (the “PASTOR”) for their knowledge, discernment, and understanding of God’s Holy words, and in doing so they become “stunted” in their own growth as a child of God – that is they remain “babes” in Christ! [Hebrews 5:12-14]

The “failure” to FEED & TEACH on the part of the PASTORS has led to the horde of “Christian” commentators today, and is the main reason why we see so many Christian people (many on this Forum) continually “recommending” this man (commentator), or that man (commentator), or their books, or audio and video tapes & CD’s.

In Paul’s day a couple of “ordinary” Christians (Priscilla & Aquila) knew enough about the Holy Scriptures that they “straightened out” a great preacher (Apollos) on his doctrine. Today, most Christians don’t know enough about doctrine to “straighten out” their Catholic neighbors! And the few that might know something about doctrine are not going to get a “hearing” from a know-it-all “Doctor” who matriculated at his favorite “Bible” school.

The Lord Jesus Christ said: “. . . . It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” [Matthew 4:4] God’s word is likened unto food (food sustains us). The Scriptures liken God’s Holy words to: Honey [Psalms 119:103]; Bread [Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4]; Apples [Proverbs 7:2]; Milk [1 Peter 2:2; Hebrews 5:13] and Meat [Hebrews 5:12-14]. God’s word is also likened unto water; that is - it “washes” or “cleanses” us. [Ephesians 5:26]

If God’s word is all sufficient to sustain and cleanse us - WHY don’t Christians read it; know it; and rely on it? For the most part, today’s Christians DO NOT STUDY; instead they rely on men (pastors & commentators) to do their studying (and "thinking") for them. They would rather follow a mere man than God!

I hope this Post may have of some help in clarifying WHERE we are to be like children, and WHERE we are to be like men. I shall be posting a very short study on “How to Study the Bible” following this Post - in case you are interested in some of the basic “KEYS” in studying the Bible.

George 05-11-2009 12:22 PM

Re: "Question on John 6"
 
Aloha all,

In order to study the Bible, in accordance with the principals set down in the Scriptures, in regards to “study”, a Christian must be aware of three “KEYS” for spiritual understanding.

The First KEY To Understanding the Bible is: THE HOLY SPIRIT
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.[1 Corinthians 2:13]

“But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.” [1 John 2:20]

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” [1 John 2:27]

If the Holy Spirit doesn’t instruct you; guide you; and convince you (personally) of Bible Truth – you will NOT receive spiritual discernment, understanding, or wisdom. IF you do NOT look to the Holy Spirit (instead of men) for guidance, you’ll end up with the “tradition of men” [Colossians 2:8] instead of “the word of truth” [Ephesians 1:13]. Without the Holy Spirit’s Guiding and Teaching, the Book will remain a “mystery”; or a source and a tool to bring men into bondage to a religion, a church, or a man.

Without the Holy Spirit’s “unction” and “anointing” the Bible is just a collection of old books or writings that are quaint and possibly of some interest, but having no real significance in our modern sophisticated world. I cannot emphasize this point enough. Of all the things a person can do to learn the Bible, it is imperative that they receive instruction from God. No school; no college; no church; no man can substitute for the Holy Spirit!

No matter how high your I.Q. may be; no matter how much education & “schooling” you may have received; No matter how much reading & studying you may have done; IF the Holy Spirit does not “instruct” you, you CANNOT “receive spiritual things”!

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Tell me: WHERE does our “intellect” enter into the equation; WHERE does our “schooling” enter into the equation; WHERE does our “reading” & “studying” enter into the equation? IF we DO NOT seek “instruction” from the Holy Spirit; and if the Holy Spirit IS NOT instructing us; just WHAT exactly are we receiving - if not man’s wisdom and understanding?

HOW are we to study? WHAT are the Scriptural principles for sound Bible study? According to the Scriptures, we MUST COMPARE “spiritual things with spiritual” – NOT the “comments” or “opinions” of men!

We receive spiritual discernment when we compare “spiritual things with spiritual” as illustrated in Isaiah 28:10-13:
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

You see – it’s NOT only about Bible KNOWLEDGE! You can receive “knowledge” from any place or anyone (Schools; Commentators books, tapes, CD’s and DVD’s; etc.; etc.); but the genuine “spiritual things”, i.e. discernment, understanding, and wisdom are another matter. These “spiritual things” cannot be taught by men, and we cannot receive them from men – these are the “things” that ONLY “the Holy Ghost teacheth”, and that is why it is imperative that we look to God for understanding and not men.

The Bible says that we have the mind of Christ [1 Corinthians 2:16] – then we should seek out Christ’s mind on all spiritual issues, and seek the Holy Spirit’s guidance in our studies.

When studying the Bible there is one word to always keep in mind: WHO?

Like the “Wise Old Owl” we should be asking:

WHO – Said that?

WHO – Was he speaking to?

WHO – Should follow and obey?

WHO – Does this apply to?

WHO – Is this written to?

You would be surprised how much confusion can be avoided by simply asking - “WHO”? - A Bible study principle that takes us to the second “KEY” in understanding the Bible:

The second KEY to Understanding the Bible is: RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. [2 Timothy 2:15]

SOME EXAMPLES OF “RIGHTLY DIVIDING”

1Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
{The Scriptural “Division” of man’s “SUBSTANCE”}

1Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
{The Scriptural “Division” of ALL the people in the world}

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


{The Scriptural “Division” between Paul’s “Gospel” [Romans 2:16] & ALL other “Gospels”}

MORE EXAMPLES OF “RIGHTLY DIVIDING”

#1. Earth before the fall of man:
No Bible, no rain, no pain, no sickness, no death - Paradise on earth.

#2. Earth after the fall:
No Bible, no rain, extreme longevity, the earth cursed, pain, sickness and death ushered in - Paradise lost.

#3. Earth soon after the flood:
No Bible, rain, diversity of tongues, diminishing longevity.

#4. Abraham to Moses:
No Bible, God chooses a people for Himself – The Hebrews.

#5. Moses to the Lord Jesus Christ:
Old Testament {The Law}, God makes a nation out of His chosen people - Israel.

#6. Death, Burial, and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ to the present:
New Testament, God temporarily sets aside the nation of Israel – [His chosen people], and takes out a people from among the gentiles for His Son – (the church - the Body & Bride of Christ).

#7. The future of the world and mankind
Israel will be reinstated, Christ will rule and reign with his Bride - Paradise will be restored.

Have you Notice Anything Strange or Peculiar? – The Bible is a Jewish Book!

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

God’s written revelation to man, His thoughts, His truth, His wordswere given to the Jews first! - Which brings us to the third “KEY” in understanding the Bible:

The third KEYto Understanding the Bible: THE JEW {Hebrew - Israelite}
{Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, Joshua, the Judges, David, Solomon, the Kings, and the Prophets, etc. - All Jews i.e. Hebrews, Israelites.}

Please keep in mind this simple Scriptural FACT = an Undeniable Truth

Almost all: False Teaching or Perverted Doctrine or Heresy

Comes from: GOD’S COMMANDMENTS – Given to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}

That have been EXPROPRIATED by - A church
That have been EXPROPRIATED by - A cult
That have been EXPROPRIATED by - An individual


Or from: GOD’S PROMISES – Given to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}

That have been STOLEN by - A church
That have been STOLEN by -A cult
That have been STOLEN by -An individual

Or from: GOD’S PROPHECIES – Concerning the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}

That have been APPLIED to - A church
That have been APPLIED to -A cult
That have been APPLIED to -An individual

Try to remember - All Scripture has 3 applications:

#1. Historical {The historical setting in which events took place}

#2. Spiritual {“Spiritual” application can be made of nearly all Scripture – within “reason”}

#3. Doctrinal {The most difficult to determine (in certain instances) - what we all “fuss” over} :(

All Scripture must be taken literally – unless it is impossible to do so.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Scriptures are not to be privately “interpreted”.
2Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

All Doctrines derived from the Scriptures must be drawn from and built upon Scripture ONLY.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weanedfrom the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


Remember: there are three (3) “kinds” of LEAVEN {Doctrine, Hypocrisy, & People}
Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of
thedoctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. {Doctrine}

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. {Doctrine}

Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. {Hypocrisy - WHY I am sometimes so "hard" on certain "types" of "Christians"}

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? {People - WHY I am sometimes so "hard" on certain "kinds" of "Christians"}

Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. {Doctrine- WHY I am sometimes so "hard" on certain "types" of "Christians"}

The principles and precepts that I have presented here are some of the very basic “things” that ALL Christians should know – a “starting point”, so to speak, from which to begin the study of God’s Holy word. These are the “things” that it took me years to learn, and sad to say, no one (no pastor, asst. pastor, or any other church leader), in any church that I have attended ever taught me any of these “things”; {I had to “dig” them out on my own} which is a sad commentary on today’s churches and “pastors”.

A “pastor” is supposed to be “apt to teach”. The “aptitude” to teach is a GIFT from God [Romans 12: 6-8;1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4: 11-12 – God doesn’t “give” teachers that are not “apt” to teach!], it CANNOT be learned in a SCHOOL – and that is the main “problem” with today’s Christianity.

According to “secular standards” – if a man goes to College and earns a “degree”, he is supposed to be able to DO the work in the area of his study. And the assumption is made that the same holds true when it comes to Bible School or College. The problem is (according to the Bible) “spiritual things” are taught by the Holy Ghost and NOT by man, and so, although students who attend Bible schools may acquire a lot of KNOWLEDGE about the Bible; church history; etc.; - they CANNOT acquire spiritual DISCERNMENT, UNDERSTANDING, or WISDOM, from a school (or those who teach) since these “spiritual things” CANNOT be taught by men!

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

1 Timothy 4:11 These things command and teach.

1 Timothy 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

Finally, we must beware of false brethren; false teachers (hereticks); and false doctrine. Today’s churches are full of all three and so are the “Christian” Forums and “Blogs” on the net.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the
church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter
inamong you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

peopleoftheway 05-11-2009 02:03 PM

:amen: Brother George, and thank you.

God Bless

boaz212 05-11-2009 07:42 PM

Thank you all again for responding to my question. I do read them several times and prayerfully consider the scriptures and the reasonings you have put down.
Thanks George for more of the foundational studies that will help my overall study of the word of God. I appreciate your time and thorough explanations.
Please take care.

Winman 05-12-2009 03:56 PM

Bro George

Thanks for both of those great posts. And I did not take offence. And perhaps you may misundertand what I meant to say. I completely agree with you that we are to have both the qualities of a child and an adult.

1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

So, I did not for one moment mean to imply that we should be childlike in every aspect of our Christian walk. We are to study and grow always.

What I meant was that sometimes a person can over analyze scripture. Instead of reading a verse that is very simple and straightforward to understood, some try to spiritualize it, and make it mean more than it really does.

The verse in question was John 12:32

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

To which Chette replied:

Quote:

Who was John written too? Is it before the Cross or After the cross? Why did Jesus Say what he said in light of the OT?

right division and context is needed in such verses. it in no wise teaches Calvinism
To me, "all men" means just that "all men". Simple. As I pointed out, it does not say that all men who are drawn will be saved. This misunderstanding some people get results from not reading the verse straightforward, and reading into it things it does not say.

John 6:44 does say that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, if a person assumes that only persons drawn are saved, then you have the Calvinist view. But even that is wrong, because John 12:32 says all men will be drawn, therefore all would be saved.

So, this is reading into the verse what it does not say. Sometimes you have to simply read the verse as is.

Now, I appreciate your post about failure #3, how people are not properly taught to study the Bible, and I hope you do not take offence, but you can over-study. Maybe that is not the right way to say it. What I mean is that sometimes you have to take scripture for simply what is says directly, and not always assume it has some greater or different meaning than what it actually says.

I hope you understand what I mean. Sometimes we fail to see the forest for the trees. I think you might understand what I mean by that.

But your posts were great and I enjoyed them both.

George 05-12-2009 07:27 PM

Re: " Question on John 6"
 
Brother Winman's quote:
Quote:

"Now, I appreciate your post about failure #3, how people are not properly taught to study the Bible, and I hope you do not take offence, but you can over-study. Maybe that is not the right way to say it. What I mean is that sometimes you have to take scripture for simply what is says directly, and not always assume it has some greater or different meaning than what it actually says.

I hope you understand what I mean. Sometimes we fail to see the forest for the trees. I think you might understand what I mean by that."
Aloha brother Winman,

I am not offended in the least, and I also agree with you 100%. I believe that there must be "BALANCE" in our Christian walk; and our life in Christ cannot just be about "STUDY". And not only that but we have to be very careful when we do "rightly divide the word of truth" - that we "rightly divide" it, and NOT "CHOP IT UP" so much that it has no bearing or application to us.

This is not always easy; but if a believer approaches God's word simply and with a "sincere" heart, I believe that God will show him spiritual "things" that he will not show the "best & the brightest" that the "Bible" colleges have to offer.

That's why, as a Bible believing Christian, I say that I embrace a MODERATE Dispensationalism. I believe that the entire Bible is written for our learning and edification; it's just that not all of it applies to us, and that is where "rightly dividing the word of truth" comes in. :)

chette777 05-13-2009 05:58 PM

Great study KEYS George thanks.

I am not sure what Winman is trying to say or insinuating about my remarks in my post but my remarks in post #3 are clear instructions on following the general rules of Bible study Observation, Interpretation and Application. I made no reference to its meaning or application.

for the record I am a moderate dispensationalist.

kns215 05-18-2009 12:41 PM

Quote:

The problem is (according to the Bible) “spiritual things” are taught by the Holy Ghost and NOT by man, and so, although students who attend Bible schools may acquire a lot of KNOWLEDGE about the Bible; church history; etc.; - they CANNOT acquire spiritual DISCERNMENT, UNDERSTANDING, or WISDOM, from a school (or those who teach) since these “spiritual things” CANNOT be taught by men!
That hit me hard. Not because I believe I have so much knowledge about the Bible, but because I actually have been praying for wisdom, understanding, and especially DISCERNMENT from God. I really do not want to be "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine".
Thank you for explaining the important keys simply, brother George. It makes my heart bit lighter in question to what should I do to study the Bible.

ScotArt 05-18-2009 01:24 PM

George
You posted
Quote
"The problem is (according to the Bible) “spiritual things” are taught by the Holy Ghost and NOT by man, and so, although students who attend Bible schools may acquire a lot of KNOWLEDGE about the Bible; church history; etc.; - they CANNOT acquire spiritual DISCERNMENT, UNDERSTANDING, or WISDOM, from a school (or those who teach) since these “spiritual things” CANNOT be taught by men!"

Not to be pendantic but are you not here applying restrictions to where and when and with whom the Holy Spirit may work and reveal Truth and wisdom.
Does the Holy Spirit spend time away from the "student" that his ability to "spiritually discern" is not in place for that particular time frame?
Also does the Holy Spirit not use "means" such as the pastor, teacher, faith sharer??? Is that "means" ie the Christian involved as instrument of Truth/wisdom, not also provided with grace and the Spirits divine power to bring the Word within the discernment provided for the hearer/student?

If I have misread your article I do apologise. But I don't see "spiritual discernment" as having an on/off switch in the true believer, whether they are being used by the Holy Spirit to communicate the Word or receive the Word. The Holy Spirit is surely a permanent resident when "indwelling" in the Christian. This would imply that HIS work is ongoing and continuous!

In Christ.
Art.

chette777 05-18-2009 08:01 PM

Scotart,

Our spiritual life does indeed have and on off switch because of our sin nature. that is why Paul encourages us not to quench or grieve the Holy Ghost. depending on many factors you can indeed turn off the Holy Ghost. Intellectual Pride, continued unconfessed sin, cultural contamination (worldliness), changing the word of God to conform to scholastic interpretation just to name a few.

There are many and subtle ways in which we can turn off spiritual discernment and other spiritual activities in our life. The way to keep them on is where most lack the ability. Prayer, Purity, and Permissiveness of the Holy Ghost

Eph 4:30 A
nd grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

Bro. Parrish 05-18-2009 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boaz212 (Post 18900)
I had a discussion with some friends who believe in predestination taught by John Calvin. One of their strongest argument is based on John 6...

Their emphasis is on the drawing of the Father, without which no one can come to Christ to be saved. Therefore, their conclusion is that the Father chooses whom He would save and give them to His Son so they can believe on Him...

Boaz, please be advised...
tulip or no tulip, once you get past the flower it's still Calvinism—stinking like a dead catfish in the sunlight. The problem with Calvinism is they always end up forcing God to predestinate certain people to hell. However we know that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9) Don't ever forget that.

Predestination in the KJV is ALWAYS associated with and based on FOREKNOWLEDGE, and God's foreknowledge existed before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13) God's foreknowledge allowed Him to look down through time and KNOW who would accept the Saviour, and God then elected them, called them and predestinated them to glorification (Rom. 8:29-30). But it all STARTED with free will and foreknowledge. Nothing like a King James Bible to clear up doctrinal issues.

Beware the "tulip" doctrine of Calvinism, it is a leaven that can lead to much confusion. Stay in that KJV, and don't argue with these people. More here from Jack Hyles:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books..._salvation.htm

chette777 05-19-2009 08:13 AM

Boaz212,

In regards to Predestination. Study the context of the passages where the word predestinate and predestinated are used it is always applied to someone who is already saved. this would make them church doctrines. never is predestinated used in context for unbelievers. it is something applied only to person already in Christ

Rom 8:29, 30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph 1:5, 11 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, . . . In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

George 05-19-2009 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScotArt (Post 20008)
"George
You posted
"
Quote
"The problem is (according to the Bible) “spiritual things” are taught by the Holy Ghost and NOT by man, and so, although students who attend Bible schools may acquire a lot of KNOWLEDGE about the Bible; church history; etc.; - they CANNOT acquire spiritual DISCERNMENT, UNDERSTANDING, or WISDOM, from a school (or those who teach) since these “spiritual things” CANNOT be taught by men!"

"Not to be pendantic but are you not here applying restrictions to where and when and with whom the Holy Spirit may work and reveal Truth and wisdom.

Does the Holy Spirit spend time away from the "student" that his ability to "spiritually discern" is not in place for that particular time frame?

Also does the Holy Spirit not use "means" such as the pastor, teacher, faith sharer??? Is that "means" ie the Christian involved as instrument of Truth/wisdom, not also provided with grace and the Spirits divine power to bring the Word within the discernment provided for the hearer/student?

If I have misread your article I do apologise. But I don't see "spiritual discernment" as having an on/off switch in the true believer, whether they are being used by the Holy Spirit to communicate the Word or receive the Word. The Holy Spirit is surely a permanent resident when "indwelling" in the Christian. This would imply that HIS work is ongoing and continuous!
"

In Christ.
Art.

Aloha ScotArt,

Here is what the Holy Bible has to say about this issue:

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


I don't know what part of my little essay you don't understand (brother Chette and sister Nasil had no problem understanding), but I am puzzled by your reply. First off - you wrote: "pendantic", did you mean "pedantic":
Quote:

pe-dan-tic [puh-dan-tik] - adjective

1. ostentatious in one's learning. 2. overly concerned with minute details or formalisms, esp. in teaching.

Also, pe⋅dan⋅ti⋅cal.

Origin:
1590–1600; pedant + -ic http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.png

Related forms:
pe⋅dan⋅ti⋅cal⋅ly, adverb
pe⋅dan⋅ti⋅cal⋅ness, noun

Synonyms:
2. didactic, doctrinaire.

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.

pe-dan-tic (pə-dān'tĭk) adj.

Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details.
pe·dan'ti·cal·ly adv.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Secondly: I am not "applying restrictions to where and when and with whom the Holy Spirit may work and reveal Truth and wisdom." at all! :confused: I would NEVER try to RESTRICT the Holy Spirit's work in anyway. You are "reading into" what I wrote - a private interpretation that was not meant or implied.

I am simply saying that when I teach the Bible, I can only teach "knowledge". I can point out differences, such as the the difference (in the Bible) between the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church, but unless the Holy Spirit instructs the believer (that is "gives" them the "discernment" to distinguish the difference between the three Scriptural divisions of all mankind) they will not "get it".

So, I may try to teach about "discernment" i.e. contrasts, differences, etc. (as I have often done here on the AV1611 Bible Forums), but if God doesn't instruct the believer, he cannot receive spiritual "discernment" (not from me).

And as far as spiritual "understanding" and "wisdom" go, I cannot "teach" those things at all! This is the reason I keep saying that Bible schools, colleges, and seminaries can teach Bible "knowledge", but genuine spiritual "discernment", "understanding", and "wisdom" come only from God and CANNOT be taught - not by pastors/elders; not by Sunday School teachers; and especially not by "Christian" college professors.

WHY is it that every single "Christian" College or University ever established eventually "apostatizes" (without one exception)? The answer is very simple (that is to someone like myself) "knowledge puffeth up" [1 Corinthians 8:1].

Church history has demonstrated (over & over again) that over time - Christians (in all Denominations & Sects) eventually "think" that "knowledge" (alone) qualifies a man to teach the Bible. That is: "Christians" - who lack not only "knowledge", but who also lack spiritual "discernment", "understanding", and "wisdom", entrust the instruction of future pastors, elders, and evangelists to extremely intelligent men who are very "knowledgeable" about the Bible, but who, more often than not, have very little spiritual "discernment", "understanding", or "wisdom". {Origen, Eusebius, Jerome, Augustine, & Calvin being "prime examples" - "Intelligence": erroneously referred to as "head knowledge", is in reality having to do with the "intellect", i.e. the mind - not the heart.}

But God is not interested in how "smart" (our intelligence) we are; or how much "education" (schooling) we have received; He's interested in "FAITHFULNESS" [1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.] and the only way a man can be "faithful" to God is - he must be "faithful" to God's Holy words. God is not concerned with our "intellect" or "schooling" (like most Christians are today); God is concerned with our heart attitude, as the Scriptures clearly testify to:

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Do these verses describe the average "Christian" Bible teacher or professor in the "Christian" Schools and Colleges today? I trow not! But it does describe Paul & Peter; and James & John; and Timothy & Titus. WHY then has God chosen "the foolish things"; "the weak things"; the "base things"; the "things which are despised"; and the "things which are not"?

SO THAT:

29 That "no flesh should glory in his presence".

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Most Christians today "glory" in their "pastor"; or "teacher"; or in their "favorite Bible commentator"; or in their particular church (Denomination); or in their "Christian" School; or in their "Christian" College "professors". They "glory" in ANYTHING - but God and His Holy word!

According to the Scriptures - most of today's "Christian" churches (Evangelical & Fundamental - all others are not in view) in the Western world are "CARNAL" [1 Corinthians 3:1-4]. They are worse than the Corinthian church, the most "carnal" church in the New Testament. The fact that most Christians today cannot "discern" this, or do not "understand" this, speaks volumes about the true "spiritual condition" of the Evangelical & Fundamental churches (especially in the Western world) today.

Over the years, I have learned that, as far as the Bible is concerned - there are basically FOUR KINDS of people in the world; and THEIR APPROACH to the Bible is determined by WHO THEY ARE - there are:

Those Who ____________________________ Those Who Study _________________________ Those Who Study __________________________ Those Who Study
IGNORE IT _____________________________ TO DISPROVE IT _________________________ TO KNOW ABOUT IT ___________________________ TO BELIEVE IT

Most People -------------------------------- Agnostics Religionists --------------------------- Pharisees & Sadducees --------------------------- Genuine Bible Believers
Majority of Mankind -------------------- Adherents to World’s Religions ----------------------- Cults – False Religions ----------------------------- Sincere Truth Seekers
-------------------------------------------- Humanists -Secularists --------------------- “Scribes” - “Christian Educators” ------------------- Trust God for Its Preservation
------------------------------------------- “Scholars” - “Educators” ------------------------- Historians - Archeologists ---------------------- Believe God Rather Than Man
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- Anthropologists, etc, etc. ----------------- Accept What’s Written & Don’t Change

The following verses are just some of the reasons I believe that the King James Bible is THE Holy Bible - inspired, perfect, infallible, and without error; and that is WHY it is my FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice. WHAT IS YOUR FINAL AUTHORITY?

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Psalms 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Psalms 56:10 In God will I praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word.

Psalms 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Psalms 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

Psalms 119:42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.

Psalms 119:74 They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.

Psalms 119:81 CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

Psalms 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Psalms 119:114 Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

Psalms 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.

Psalms 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it givethunderstanding unto the simple.

Psalms 119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.

Psalms 119:140 Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.

Psalms 119:147 I prevented the dawning of the morning, and cried: I hoped in thy word.

Psalms 119:148 Mine eyes prevent the night watches, that I might meditate in thy word.

Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Psalms 119:161 SCHIN. Princes have persecuted me without a cause: but my heart standeth in awe of thy word.

Psalms 119:162 I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.

Psalms 119:169 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.

Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Psalms 130:5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.

Psalms 138:4 All the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O LORD, whenthey hear the words of thy mouth.

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for
thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.


Real genuine Bible study should not be just an academic exercise or a mere intellectual pursuit. Instead, true Bible study should be an honest and sincere search for the truth. “What saith the Scriptures?”

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

tonybones2112 05-19-2009 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 20056)
Scotart,

Our spiritual life does indeed have and on off switch because of our sin nature. that is why Paul encourages us not to quench or grieve the Holy Ghost. depending on many factors you can indeed turn off the Holy Ghost. Intellectual Pride, continued unconfessed sin, cultural contamination (worldliness), changing the word of God to conform to scholastic interpretation just to name a few.

There are many and subtle ways in which we can turn off spiritual discernment and other spiritual activities in our life. The way to keep them on is where most lack the ability. Prayer, Purity, and Permissiveness of the Holy Ghost

Eph 4:30 A
nd grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

Whoa, sorry brother Chette but red lights and alarms are going off all over the place here. What is "...continued unconfessed sin..."?

Grace and peace

Tony

johnlf 05-19-2009 11:04 PM

John 6
 
I always like to try to put troublesome verses in context. Who, what, why, when, where, how, etc. Let's look at the whole story.

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him

When we concentrate on the highlighted verses we see the context clearly. Jesus was at this point being thronged by people who had just seen him miraculously feed five thousand people. What was their first reaction?

15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

What was His response?

26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.



So here we are with an amazing miracle that only God could have done and what do people want? Why to make him their king of course! Free food for everyone forever! But he departed because he knew they weren't getting the point. Next, when they finally catch up with him, they have accepted that he won't be their king. So the next best thing is to learn how to make miracle bread for themselves:

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

But he rebukes them again. They just aren't getting it. He is the bread! The bread represents eternal life that all who BELIEVE on him receive. But they still don't get it:

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

And this is where we get the key verse:

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me

You see, they said that God was their father. But they did not believe that the father had sent him. They didn't know they father, so they didn't believe him either. He said the same thing in other places:

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

John 14
King James Bible

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. 41 I receive not honour from men. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

The ones who were drawn to Jesus were the ones who already knew the Father. To all the rest he was just a miraculous breadmaker. But to the ones who already knew the Father, he was the Son of God, the only one with the power of eternal life:

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16
King James Bible

chette777 05-20-2009 12:30 AM

I don't think it is that hard to understand Tbones. you call it backsliding. you may be forgiven in Gods eyes by Christs work. but don't you think for a moment that the Holy Ghost wont be grieved or quenched because of it. Sin has results even for believers. many a problem with believers today is their getting in sin and not confessing it and forsaking it and they end up confused, sick, sometimes even dead. We don't get a free ticket to sin you know. Check out 1Cor 11:27-34 and see what happens to those who partake the lords supper in an unworthy manner-they are instructed to judge themselves before taking it. because of unconvicted and unconfessed sin many were weak, sick and sleeping (dead).

I am not however talking about sin before one is saved I am talking about what one does after being saved. all sin is forgiven but you can't be a believer and continue to sin and do nothing about it. so shut down your red lights and alarms you got them tuned to the wrong cord. I am not talking about confessing sin before one can be saved, I am talking about confessing ones sin after being saved. 1John 1:9

johnlf 05-20-2009 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 20164)
Check out 1Cor 11:27-34 and see what happens to those who partake the lords supper in an unworthy manner-they are instructed to judge themselves before taking it. because of unconvicted and unconfessed sin many were weak, sick and sleeping (dead).

First of all let me say that it is always good advice for us to be told to examine ourselves. But how many of us confess our sins daily? Or even better, as they happen? I always have a good belly laugh every time I hear a brother talk about how he hasn't sinned in a month. Hahahaha, that's a great one. I say take a look in the mirror brother, God's Word says you're fibbing:

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John 1
King James Bible

Here's a perfect example of my pet peeve or bugaboo. Taking a verse out of context to promote a tradition. Let's examine the verse in context:

17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. 20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.




Please take note of the above highlighted verses. Paul was not condemning them for not examining themselves with a fine tooth comb before coming to church. He was condemning for being selfish GLUTTONS at the Lord's table. Now please note that they were partaking of a REAL meal and drinking REAL wine, not grape juice and crackers.

Some people were getting drunk on the wine because they had no meat to go with it, and others who were poor were ashamed because they were hungry, and there was nothing left for them to eat because the big fat SELFISH gluttons had hogged it all up!

So here you have quite a picture. Believers coming together to remember the most selfless act in the universe, the Godman Jesus allowing his body to be broken and his blood to be poured out to save all mankind from a fate worse than any of us can imagine. And how do they signify it? By being selfish greedy gluttons who care nothing for others except for their own belly. Can you blame God for judging them?

So next time you are trembling in a wooden pew, worried about possible sins that you've committed, waiting for them to come by with grape juice and crackers, think about the real MEANING of this verse. Don't be a selfish glutton and put your needs above the needs of the needs of others. Think of other people first, especially the less fortunate:

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Walk in love my brothers

boaz212 05-20-2009 07:10 PM

Thanks johnlf for your thoughts on John 6. I have been reading over the whole book of John. I am getting bits of understanding here and there but not in a whole picture yet. Your study helps a lot. Please take care.
And, welcome to the forum!

chette777 05-20-2009 07:55 PM

NO verse 31 is not out of context Judge ourselves for what are you going to judge that you didn't eat out of place?

There is a contextual change at verse 23 to speak of the Lords supper and how it is to be properly done. Look closely and prayerfully and you will see more than the sin of gluttony going on in the previous verses. you limited your study to your own Private Interpretation of gluttony and it is more than that.

Before Verse 23 there is the issue of proper Prayer and in vs 13 you have the term Judge IN yourselves.

Then you have Paul commenting on "Coming together not for better but for worse." This covers a lots of issues, you will notice Paul's comment "For FIRST of all" Which tells you there are divisions, (secondly)then Heresy, (thirdly) and then he covers the issue of not waiting for everyone to assemble before partaking(thinking higher of ones self). and One is going without food and is hungry which means the poor were being neglected, (fourthly) and then he mentions drunkenness.

so you see your interpretation that these verses are dealing with the problem of Gluttony is a private interpretation. For Paul is covering a lot more than gluttony here. he is talking about the over all sin that was prevalent in the lives of the Corinthians.

Seems to me you would never apply that verse to yourself or the church.

I do try at the end of each day to examine my day by the Holy Sprint and see if I needed to confess anything. It is not needed but helpful for anyone who desires continual spiritual growth in their life. And before we take communion in our church I teach Cor 11:23-31.

chette777 05-20-2009 08:53 PM

Let me ask you Johnlf.

You claimed I was teaching a Tradition. Can you tell me what one that is. I was teaching a spiritual application not a tradition.

Do you think it is wrong to teach a spiritual application of searching ones heart before communion from Cor 11:23-31?

Do you think it is wrong to make a spiritual application to confess one sins from 1John1:9?

would you feel it was wrong to teach a spiritual application to search and confess sins before coming to the Lord in prayer? or before coming to him for Bible Study?

I would not list them amongst major doctrines mind you. but for personal discipleship I would teach these applications.

things we would not think of of sins and we generally see it in others is pride, arrogance, knowledge.

Now, if Paul said that because of the many sins (wrong prayer, not caring for the poor in the assembly, causing divisions, teaching heresy, eating out of places, drunkenness) that many were sick ,weak and dead. would you think that because we are not Corinthians that the Idea of judging ones self before taking the Lords supper is wrong?

johnlf 05-21-2009 04:24 AM

Brother

My point here is about tradition. I think that somehow it is easier for me to see man-made tradition because of my own unique circumstances. I have never been a member of any denomination or sect because I have studiously avoided that for 23 years as the Lord has led me. I do not forsake the assembling with other Christians, but I also steadfastly refuse to bring myself under the yoke of any man-made doctrine.

We must always remember that our Lord Jesus was also a prophet. He was a tremendously controversial figure who overthrew centuries of accepted understanding of Scriptures and tradition. He also HATED the traditions of men and the adding to the Word of God. In his denouncing of man-made traditions, he in my opinion reached the pinnacle of his office of prophet:

1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. 2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables. 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. 10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: 11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. 12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; 13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: 15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. 16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. 18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; 19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? 20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Ever since Cain and the founding of Babylon mankind has attempted to reach God and seek righteousness through works, ritual, and tradition. It is the nature of the flesh. I denounce man-made traditions of my day in the same way my Lord did in his day.

I see traditions which add or subtract from the Word of God as being on the same level as Bible versions which add or subtract from the Word of God. I fear no man or devil, but I tremble in abject terror at thought I might add or subtract from God's Words.

Now to revisit the issue. I maintain that most of what passes today as the Lord's supper is the result of man-made tradition. People sitting in wooden pews taking a sip of grape juice and a bite of a cracker is not in my opinion what our Lord intended. And it is certainly not what Paul is describing as going on here in this verse.

I did not say that this verse is only about gluttony. I said it is about selfishness which was manifested as gluttony, and had the result of drunkeness as well as the shaming of the poor. That is what Paul is denouncing.

To re-iterate. This verse is NOT about examining ourselves for any unconfessed sin before following what is in my opinion a man-made ritual of sitting in wooden pews and partaking of a small wafer and grape juice.

But this verse IS about Christians coming together for a meal and sharing bread and wine together in remembrance of the selfless sacrifice their Lord made for them. And being rebuked because some of them were so selfish that they made gluttons of themselves by hogging up all the food, which caused others to become drunken and the poor to be ashamed.

chette777 05-21-2009 04:48 AM

John,

Why do you feel the verse cannot carry the application of examining or judging ones heart of any sin before taking of the bread and the cup? Are you saying then these scriptures have no application for us today because we don't feast as they did in the days of Roman rule? what and why was Paul telling them to examine and judge then?

I agree that the Lords supper can be a little ritualistic and cold. I would be interested in hearing more form you on the issue of the Lords Table.

Would you start another thread and expand more on your idea of the Lords Table. what it should be, how it should be carried out etc. Mind you lets keep it inline with the Bible. It is obvious you have given this much thought and you may be a benefit to edify us all.

johnlf 05-21-2009 06:10 PM

Brother chette777,

I want to apologize. While I think that most of what I said was doctrinally correct, it was not spoken in a loving manner. I can honestly say that I do not know what is the "proper" way for Christians to practice the Lord's supper, so I am in no position to judge anyone on how they decide to keep it.

My snide comments about grape juice and crackers was just plain wrong. If believers choose to practice the Lord's supper in that way it is none of my business. The Catholic tradition of communion is a grave error in my opinion, and that's the cause for my reaction. But that does not mean that everything that is the least bit similar to it is heresy. I hope you understand the reason for my concern. But again, I am not the judge and the only person I really need to spend time in judging is myself. Heaven forbid that my words would place a stumbling block in front of another brother.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Colossians 2
King James Bible

chette777 05-21-2009 10:27 PM

I have because of some on this site learned not to read my emotions into another's post. I did not judge your remarks as snide or unloving I took them with a grain of salt. no problem to me.


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