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chette777 02-18-2009 06:26 PM

A true Calvinist rejects none of the TULIP. anything less is not what is known as Calvinism. it is generally just people who haven't got it all rightly divided in areas of the terms elect, church, chosen, and the different dispensations with different Gospels or ways to be saved.

I am not Saying Will is that I like. Will's study's have shown some great effort in showing the infallibility, integrity and preservation of Gods Word in the KJV. but we all have our weak points

stephanos 02-18-2009 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 15615)
A true Calvinist rejects none of the TULIP. anything less is not what is known as Calvinism. it is generally just people who haven't got it all rightly divided in areas of the terms elect, church, chosen, and the different dispensations with different Gospels or ways to be saved.

I am not Saying Will is that I like. Will's study's have shown some great effort in showing the infallibility, integrity and preservation of Gods Word in the KJV. but we all have our weak points

Any Calvinist or Reformed doctrine is a HUGE weak point. It is major leaven and should not be ignored.

For Jesus' sake,
Stephen

Luke 02-18-2009 09:42 PM

Will Kinney's articles on the KJB have zero calvinism in them.

stephanos 02-18-2009 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 15620)
Will Kinney's articles on the KJB have zero calvinism in them.

Right, but if that sort of thing starts to shew itself it should be dealt with in a biblical fashion.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

George 02-19-2009 01:55 PM

Re: "CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"
 
Aloha all,


Sorry for the delay, but this part of the study has turned out to be the most difficult - so far. :eek: We are now ready to examine the third main tenet of Calvinism in the light of God’s Holy word:

T.U.L.I.P. {the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

L =“Limited Atonement”(also known as Particular Atonement)

Calvinists state:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

The fact that the word “LIMITED” only shows up once in the Scriptures, and the only use of the word in that one single verse being peculiarly anti-Calvinistic [
Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and LIMITED the Holy One of Israel.] should have given John Calvin (or some of his followers) at least pause in using it to describe the “Atonement”.

Before I begin my comments on the third “pillar” (premise) of Calvinistic doctrine - “Limited Atonement” (and as brother Forrest has said: “which I personally think is the most heretical doctrine in the wilting T.U.L.I.P arrangement.”), I believe it is necessary to determine, as best we can, what the “Atonement” is all about.

Words are strange and peculiar things. Our Lord and Saviour is described as “The Word”.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Why would God choose to describe The Son as “The Word”, unless He was trying to convey to us that there is a constant, persistent, enduring, indissoluble, permanent, perpetual, everlasting, and eternal connection between “The WORD” and God’s “words”?

God’s words (spoken or written) are powerful:

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

The Scriptures state that the Lord Jesus Christ spoke all of creation into existence, and that all of creation is upheld “by the word of His power”. They also state that the words that Christ spoke are “life”. Peter said that “thou (the Lord Jesus Christ) hast the words of eternal life!

Like I said at the beginning, words are strange and peculiar things. God has used words (spoken & written) to convey His thoughts and His ways to mankind from the very beginning of the creation of Adam up to the present day; and men and women have used words ever since to express their thoughts, feelings, beliefs, ideas, etc.

So the question arises – WHAT are words? {Check the Dictionary for the exhaustive definition} I believe that words not only express most of those things that are said about them in the Dictionaries; but more than that – words (spoken or written) paint a verbal “picture” of our thoughts, feelings, beliefs, ideas, etc.; and not only ours, but God has used His words to “illustrate” for mankind His thoughts and His ways.

By now you are probably saying – What’s the point? The point is that God has been “illustrating” to mankind (through His actions and His words) the absolutely devastating and destructive effect SIN has had on mankind from the moment that Adam fell up to today; and the “Terrible Price” that God requires to “Atone” for SIN (Sins). - “THE ATONEMENT”!

From the first sacrifice – the shedding of blood and the death of an innocent animal in the Garden of Eden to “cover” Adam & Eve’s sin; to Abel’s “more excellent” sacrifice; to Noah’s offering (of every clean beast & every clean fowl); to Job’s burnt offerings for his children according to the number of them all”; to Abraham’s “offering” of his ONLY son; to Moses and Aaron and the establishment of the Law and all the “ordinances of divine service” (which included the daily sacrifices for the individual sins of the people of Israel, and the once a year perfect, clean, unblemished male animal sacrifice for the nation of Israel); God was “illustrating” (or painting a picture) that SIN = DEATH; that God required the BLOOD of an innocent, unblemished MALE SACRIFICE to “cover” (not Atone for) people’s sins.

Over and over again, as those innocent animals died and shed their blood, God was “illustrating” to all of mankind and to Israel that He required a “Payment” for sin; and only a perfect, unblemished, innocent male sacrifice would do. Over and over again He was “painting a picture” of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Back then, it was the actual shedding of blood and death that “illustrated” God’s point, today it’s the reading (or hearing) of those actual events that “illustrates” for us the same point.

Now the question arises, when the high priest went once a year into “the Holy of Holies” to offer the blood of the sacrifice for his sins and the sins of the people of Israel was that offering ONLY for the “saints”, or was it for ALL of the people? Were ALL of the people saints? Read the Books of Moses. Read Judges, 1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings, 1&2 Chronicles, etc. Read the Book of Hebrews. How many times did the people of Israel sin? (The testimony of the Scriptures testifies that most of the time it was the “majority” of the people that sinned.) Do you think that when the high priest went into the Holy Of Holies to offer the blood of the sacrifice that that offering was ONLY for the saints of old? Could anyone prove that by Scripture? I trow not!

And now we come to John the Baptist, what did he have to say about the Lord Jesus Christ?

John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Now we know: “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.” [Hebrews 10:4] So from the time of Adam’s fall up until the time of Christ’s sacrifice, all of the shedding of the blood of all of those innocent animals did was “cover” the sins of those who sacrificed or those for whom the sacrifice was made. In the case of Israel the once a year sacrifice was made for ALL of the people. In the case of “the Lamb of God” (The Lord Jesus Christ), His sacrifice was “for the sins of the WHOLE world”! [1 John 2:2]

And so the ATONEMENT for sin was accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ. He fulfilled all of the Scriptural requirements. He is the ONLY ONE that fit the “picture” that God had “illustrated” (by His initial “example” in the Garden and by His word) for mankind for four centuries. He paid the “terrible price” that God required, and which no one else could. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and NOT for ours ONLY, but ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.” [1 John 2:2] The Holy Scriptures unequivocally state that that terrible sacrifice was made “for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD” – NOT just for the “elect”. But in order for that sacrifice (for “the Whole World) to be effective in the life of each individual, they must DO something: They must “BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”.

So far, every time we come around to examining the various Calvinistic doctrines we come face to face with “BELIEF”, “BELIEVE”, “BELIEVED”, OR “BELIEVING”. And although I am repeating myself for the umpteenth time – the problem with Calvinism is that by not rightly dividing the word of God, concerning man’s attributes, Calvin (and all who have followed him) have confused “WORKS”, which are a function and operation of the flesh, with “BELIEF”, which is a function and operation of the heart. And in doing so, they have ended up with a doctrine which, at every turn, CHANGES the Holy word of God and makes it say something other than what it truly says.

Calvinists state:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus onlyborethesinsoftheelect.

I believe it behooves us to examine what the Bible has to say about WHO the Lord Jesus Christ died and shed His for, and see if God’s words are in agreement with Calvinism:

THE WORLD

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The preceding Bible verses are the strongest verses in opposition to the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement” that I could find. Can ANYONE honestly say (or even claim) that the testimony of the Scriptures agrees with the doctrine of Limited Atonement”? According to Calvinism:Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect.”With all of the clear and unmistakable testimony from Scripture, how could ANYONE make such statements that are so unequivocally in opposition to the simple and unambiguous teachings from God’s word?

The Scriptures stated nine (9) times that Christ is the Saviour of the “Whole World”; or that He came to save the world; etc.; etc. How many times must God say something before Calvinists will accept it? Read the statements:

Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”; “the world through him might be saved; “this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world”; “For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world”.; “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself”; “the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world”;

And then the three (3) strongest statements from Scripture in opposition to this doctrine – “
I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.” {Christ didn’t say - ‘to save the elect!}; the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world”; {John didn’t say that the Father sent the Son: ‘to be the Saviour of the elect!}; “he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world”.

How can ANYONE SAY:Jesus died only for the elect." or "Jesus only bore the sins of the elect.”

I listed the verses that I believe are the strongest in opposition to the Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement”. Unlike those that will follow (“all”, “all men”, etc.) the Calvinists cannot CHANGE the word “world” to mean something other than what it means – “THE WORLD”!

The following verses present more support against the doctrine of Limited Atonement”. However, many of these verses will be “turned on their head” and challenged by Calvinists by the use of QUESTIONS: ‘Does “ALL” really mean ALL – Doesn’t it really mean ‘ALL THE ELECT’? ‘Does “ALL MEN” really mean ALL MEN – Doesn’t it really mean ‘ALL THE ELECT’? ‘Does “EVERY MAN” really mean EVERY MAN – Doesn’t it really mean ‘ALL THE ELECT’? You see how it goes?

ALL MEN

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1 Timothy 4:10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I believe the Bible record that God: “would have ALL MEN to be saved”! Salvation is for ALL – Christ “died for ALL”. But NOT ALL will BELIEVE and RECEIVE! I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ tasted “death for EVERY MAN” – NOT just the elect!

I believe that God “is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that BELIEVE” {There’s that word – “BELIEVE”again!}The Lord Jesus Christ is the SAVIOUR of ALL MEN – But, in order for God’s salvation to be effective (efficacious) in each individual, a man (or woman) must DO something in order to be saved: They must “BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ” [Acts 16:30-31].

I believe that 2Corinthians 5:14-15 defines ALL - in regards to WHO Christ died for: “that if one died for all, {ONLY THE ELECT?} then were all {ONLY THE ELECT?}dead”. The question arises – are (were) ONLY THE ELECT DEAD? Do ONLY THE ELECT DIE? Don’t ALL (ALL MEN) DIE? If ALL (EVERYONE - Hebrews 9:27) DIE, and Christ “died for ALL” – then WHO is it that Christ died for? ONLY THE ELECT – are they kidding? Christ died for ALL – But ONLY those who BELIEVE are saved – what’s so complicated about that?

And now we will move on to “Whosoever”. {And “whosoever” is NOT “Limited” to the Elect ONLY!} If God meant for “whosoever” to be ONLY the “elect”, He would have used the word “elect” in place of the word “whosoever” wherever the word shows up in the Holy Scriptures! If “whosoever” does NOT mean the “elect” ONLY – then Calvinism is guilty of CHANGING the Holy words of God - But that wouldn’t be the first time!

WHOSOEVER

John 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Did you notice “believeth”? When it comes to salvation, you can’t escape BELIEF! It’s God’s GRACE; It’s God’s LOVE; It’s God’s MERCY; it’s Christ’s SACRIFICE; it’s God’s GIFT; It’s Christ’s FAITH; but it’s our “BELIEF”! A person MUST BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to get saved – it’s that simple. [2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.]

Whenever a doctrine gets so complicated and convoluted that it becomes necessary to CHANGE the Holy words of God in order to prove a point, or ADD words that cannot be found in the Bible – I automatically suspect “someone” of subtilty complicating “the simplicity that is in Christ”, and introducing “leaven” into the body of Christ.

We now move on to the next set of Scriptures in opposition to the Calvinistic doctrine of Limited Atonement”:

WE - OUR - US – I – ME

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Timothy 1:15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

The preceding verses, if taken out of the context of all of the rest of the preceding verses, can be misconstrued to mean “only the elect”. But a careful inquiry and investigation into the verses will demonstrate that they must all be rightly divided in light of the testimony of all of the preceding verses that I have cited. {Remember: A verse “out of context” = “a PRETEXT”!}

For instance: [Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.] Did Christ “give Himself” ONLY for Paul? Of course not! The testimony of 1Timothy 2:6 says:Christgave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” {Context is everything!}

And what about all of the verses where it says that “Christ died for us”? What about all the US’s? Are they “Limited” only to Paul and to those whom he was addressing in his Epistles? Of course not! Are they “Limited” to US today? I trow not! Are they “Limited” to ONLY THE ELECT? If you were to take the verses ALONE; and separated, or tried to disassociate them from all of the other Scriptures presented here – you might be able to come up with a doctrine that taught that. But that method of dividing the word of truth would be dishonest and deceitful.

Christ died for “the sins of the whole world”; “Christ died for the ungodly”; “Christ died for us”; and “Christ died for me” – Can you disassociate or divorce all of the verses where it clearly says he died for “the sins of the whole world” from those where it says He “died for US”? I trow not! If that be the case then to “rightly divide the word of truth”, the teaching taken from ALL of the verses is simply that Christ died for “the sins of the whole world”, of which I, you, me, i.e. “US” are but a part.

And now we come to the most difficult verses in dealing with the doctrine of “Limited Atonement”.

Calvinists state:
Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Let's examine the verses given in support of the Calvinistic doctrine of "Limited Atonement":
Quote:

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
FACT: The verse doesn’t CHANGE the testimony of 1John 2:2. [“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”] And since there are no errors or contradictions in the Holy Bible, we must rightly divide the word of truth (spiritual discernment) to arrive at an understanding.

FACT: Christ died for “the sins of the whole world” - “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” [John 1:12]. However, only those who have BELIEVED on Him and who have RECEIVED him receive “remission of sins”. Just because the Lord Jesus Christ died for ALL, doesn’t mean that ALL are saved! He made the Sacrifice (for “the whole world) – it’s up to us to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved [Acts 16:31]! I will deal with "many" shortly.

Quote:

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
FACT: The use of this verse to “prove” Calvinistic doctrine illustrates the shallow understanding that John Calvin had in regards to the Holy word of God. Let us examine the verses within their proper “CONTEXT” shall we?

Quote:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
{This is speaking about Christ’s return to earth to rule.}

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, AS a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
{This is NOT speaking about Christ’s “SHEEP”! Do you see the word “AS”? The Lord is using a “simile” to explain what is going to take place (the judgment of the NATIONS) immediately after He returns to the earth, at the beginning of His Millennial reign. On the one hand (the right), The Lord Jesus Christ is explaining that those NATIONS (the sheep) who treated the Jews kindly and helped and supported them, will get to live and go into His Kingdom. While on the other hand (the left) those NATIONS (the goats) who neglected or refused to help or assist the Jews, or those NATIONS who actively opposed them are going to be sent into “everlasting fire & punishment”. Read the verses (in CONTEXT) – these verses are NOT talking about the “atonement”, or New Testament salvation, or Christ’s “SHEEP”. These are in reference to THE JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS, which will take place immediately after the end of the Great Tribulation. This is NOT THE “Judgment Seat of Christ” (for Christians), and NEITHER is it the “Great White Throne” Judgment (for the “dead”); this is “The Judgment of the Nations”! This is “rightly dividing the word of truth” -101! Couldn’t Calvin READ? Can his “followers” READ? Please read to the end of the Chapter. Do you see anything connected to the church, Christians, or New Testament salvation?}

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I will say it again – where is Paul’s “Gospel” (the Gospel of the Grace of God) in all of the preceding verses? The verses clearly state that some NATIONS are going to “inherit the kingdom” (NOT “eternal life”) based on how they treated the Jews (Christ’s “brethren”) during the Tribulation; and some NATIONS are going to be cast into “everlasting fire” & “punishment” based on their mistreatment of the Jews (Christ’s “brethren”) during the Tribulation.

Can you see what a mess someone can get in - if they don’t “rightly divide the word of truth”? If John Calvin couldn’t get the rudimentary facts of Scripture straight here, what’s to say he had it right in his system of biblical interpretation and theological formulations– better known as the acronym: T.U.L.I.P.?

Quote:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
FACT: The testimony of John 10:11 & 15 doesn’t CHANGE the testimony of 1John 2:2. [“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”] And since there are no errors or contradictions in the Holy Bible, we must rightly divide the word of truth to arrive at a spiritual understanding. The fact that the Lord Jesus Christ gave His life for “the sheep” doesn’t CHANGE the fact that He died for “the sins of the whole world”! He could do BOTH you know.

Quote:

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
FACT: The “them” in the CONTEXT are the Lord Jesus Christ’s DISCIPLES! What has this got to do with “Limited Atonement”?

Quote:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
FACT: The testimony of John 6:44 doesn’t ALTER or CHANGE the testimony of 1John 2:2. [“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”] And since there are no errors or contradictions in the Holy Bible, we must rightly divide the word of truth to arrive at a spiritual understanding. The fact that - “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him”, doesn’t CHANGE the fact that He died for “the sins of the whole world”! A verse dealing with the Father drawing men to Christ does NOT ANNUL verses that clearly state that Christ is the Saviour of the world, and is the PROPITIATION for the sins of the whole world.

Quote:

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
AMEN! So what is the point? Does this ALTER or CHANGE what has already been established in the Holy Scriptures elsewhere? Does God’s Holy word have errors or contradictions in it? I trow not!

Quote:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Does the fact that Christ “loved the church and gave himself for it” NULLIFY the fact that He sacrificed Himself to take “away the sin of the world”, or that His sacrifice was made forthe life of the world”? Of course not! He could do both you know. [John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.] At this point - are you getting tired & weary of all this?

Quote:

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Does the fact that Isaiah 53:12 states the “he bare the sin of many”; ALTER or CHANGE the testimony of all of the Scriptures that I have posted? - especially 1John 2:2: he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. I shall deal with "many" in my comments immediately following.

I have added three more verses that were not cited, but fall under the same category:

Quote:

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
These verses are in reference to the Lord Jesus Christ giving eternal life to “as many as thou (the Father) hast given Him”; and “as many the Lord our God shall call”; and “as many as were ordained to eternal life”. These verses have to do with “predestination” [Romans 8:29-30], which is based on the “foreknowledge” of God [1Peter 1:2], which is based on – God knowing before hand (before the foundation of the world) WHO would BELIEVE on Him and who would Not!

But all of this does not CHANGE the fact that: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” [John 3:16]

All three of these verses do NOT ALTER, CHANGE, or NULLIFY all of the verses that were presented in opposition to the doctrine of “Limited Atonement”; if they do – then there are “contradictions” in the Holy word of God, which, we know and are absolutely sure, that there are NONE!

The solution to an “apparent contradiction” in the Bible is to:

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

And the secret to “rightly dividing” is found in Isaiah:

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Can we identify the “many”?

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

In this verse the “many” are born again children of God - Who become “the sons of God” by BELIEVING on His name, and whichreceive” Him the moment they BELIEVE. [John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.]

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. {The Scriptural “requirement” being - IF they BELIEVE!}

The “many” in Romans 5:15 are ALL MANKIND! Because of Adam’s offenceALL men (and women) DIE [1Corinthians 15:22] – NOT JUST THE ELECT! According to the Scriptures - “many” can sometimes mean “ALL”! We are commanded to study and to rightly DIVIDE; this takes spiritual discernment, understanding, and wisdom, which only God can give – a Bible school, college, or seminary CANNOT provide these things; and neither can any man who you may admire, or who you may be following.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. {The Scriptural “requirement” being - IF they BELIEVE!}

Because of Adam’s offence “judgment came upon all men to condemnation”. ALL men (and women) are under this judgment. “All men” means – “ALL MEN” – NOT JUST THE ELECT! In order to receive “the free gift” many must first BELIEVE. The “free gift” is offered to ALL, but the Scriptural requirement is that only those who BELIEVE can receive it. According to the Scriptures - “many” can sometimes mean “ALL”!

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. {The Scriptural “requirement” being - IF they BELIEVE!}

Because of Adam’s disobediencemany were made sinners”. We know that ALL men (and women) are sinners, so according to the Scriptures - “many” can sometimes mean “ALL”!
Does that mean that ALL men & women will “be made righteous”? Of course not! Again, the promise is to ALL, but the Scriptural requirement is that only those who BELIEVE can receive it.

Are we done? How about just one more?

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

According to the Holy Scriptures – the Lord Jesus Christ is not only the “Propitiation” for our sins, but He is the “Propitiation” for “the sins of the whole world”. How do we square that with Hebrews 9:28? It’s very simple really: According to the Scriptures - “many” can sometimes mean “ALL”!

In conclusion: God will have “all men to be saved” [1Timothy 2:4] – NOT just the elect; the Lord Jesus Christ “tasted death for every man” [Hebrews 2:9] – NOT just the elect; the Lord Jesus Christ is “the Saviour of the world” [1 John 4:14] – NOT just the elect; “Christ died for my sins, for our sins, and “for the sins of the whole world [Galatians 2:20; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 1John 2:2] – NOT just the elect!

The Bible states:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I believe the Scriptures as they are – NOT as John Calvin perceived them to be. If you want to get saved - ignore all of the complexity of Calvinism (or any other “ISM”) and just “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.” The “simplicity that is in Christ” was never meant to be so complicated! :(

chette777 02-20-2009 03:16 AM

once again George, TOP NOTCH JOB! blessings to you for your hard work of study. I cut and paste the TUL into a folder with your name on it. can't wait for the IP.

JOHN G 02-21-2009 09:18 AM

Thanks so much George. Great idea Chete777, I just did the same.
In Christ!
...the simplicity that is in Christ...2Cor. 11:3

Forrest 02-21-2009 06:30 PM

Brother George, the entire article on "Limited Atonement" was outstanding and provides strong Biblical defense of the faith which was once delivered unto us. Thank you for "earnestly" contending for THE faith.

I was especially moved by this.

Quote:

You wrote: Words are strange and peculiar things. Our Lord and Saviour is described as “The Word”.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Why would God choose to describe The Son as “The Word”, unless He was trying to convey to us that there is a constant, persistent, enduring, indissoluble, permanent, perpetual, everlasting, and eternal connection between “The WORD” and God’s “words”?
I believe that when we fully understand the power and the preeminence of the Lord Jesus Christ, we can believe nothing short of what the Holy Scripture clearly proclaims.

What type of "love" limits the atonement for my (our) sin to only an "elected or chosen" group of sinners? Yes, God is indeed Sovereign and can do as He chooses without any consultation or protest from me, but I am so thankful, grateful, and humbled that He included me in the whole, every, whosoever, and all plan of redemption.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Brother George. The Lord Jesus Christ that I know is the incarnate WORD and cannot be disconnected from God's written word. Personally, the written word is more powerful, alive, and understood when I purpose to make that connection.

How can a person truly know the grace, power, and sufficiency of Jesus Christ without fully believing He died for "all" men and that "whosoever" believes in and receives Him is saved?
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Thank you again for your labor of love. :smile:

JerryW 02-22-2009 12:07 AM

George, Can you explain a couple things in regards to your post on Limited Atonement? Since you take the words "all men" and "whole world", in the majority of cases, as pertaining to every individual ever born(rather than simply saying it means not just the Jews but also the Gentiles) why would a loving God declare that he "wants all(as you define all) men to be saved", 1 Tim 2:4, when he knew way in advance not every human being is going to hear the Gospel message? Remembering that the "gospel is the power of God unto salvation" and "faith comes from hearing". In your post you use quite a few verses that contain the word "believe", and at the end of your post you have the phrase "JUST believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" Can you explain the meaning of 1 Cor 15:2,"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have BELIEVED IN VAIN"?

Luke 02-22-2009 02:43 PM

Well, that's what the great white throne is for. Shall not the judge of the earth do right?

What about babies? They haven't heard the gospel, yet they are born in sin. They haven't trusted Christ, but they have not had a chance to. Before the great white throne, God judges men according to their works. The retarded, babies, and perhaps men who were seeking God, following their conscience, may stand before God and have a final opportunity to accept or reject truth. I don't know, but I know that when God says He all men to be saved, He wants all men to be saved.

In Genesis 3, God saved ALL men that were alive (Adam and Eve) by shedding blood for them.

chette777 02-22-2009 09:04 PM

At the Great white Throne only dead men who have been resurrected are being judged. living men get judged later in the next chapter 21. God's Grace is greater than our current understanding but we get great light from his word on his wonderful grace.

Babies god only knows, Pygmies and men who never heard the gospel both alive and dead will be judged by what their conscience revealed to them from the earth. Read Romans chapters one through three twenty one the section on "All mankind's need for Salvation", is shows that their own bodies and nature revealed God to man, and their conscience will either accuse them or excuse them.

George 02-23-2009 03:30 PM

Re: " CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"
 
JerryW,

I find it very instructive that in your Post #22 (this Thread) you pre-judged me and then accused me of:

Quote:

George, You seem to do like many others, that is just pick and choose the verses that fit your "theology". Since you do not want to be labeled as a Calvinist or a Armenian you take the "middle of the road theology". The two verses that I have not seen you address is Acts 13:48,"And when the Gentiles heard this they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord, and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal life BELIEVED." And also John 6:44," No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." How do these fit in with your "theology" Or do they?
After I presented my refutation of the Calvinistic doctrine of “Limited Atonement” (citing nearly 100 verses of Scripture in support of my belief) and in addition, also dealing with the two (2) verses you were so concerned about, plus another nine (9) verses that Calvinist’s use in defense of their “theology” {and an additional four (4) verses for good measure}, all you can do is ask a couple more "loaded" QUESTIONS. Instead of either trying to refute my study (point by point) or agree with it – you practically IGNORED nearly all of the study, by using the clever “ploy” of asking more QUESTIONS!

JerryW’s “QUESTIONS” - Post #49 (this Thread):
Quote:

George, Can you explain a couple things in regards to your post on Limited Atonement? Since you take the words "all men" and "whole world", in the majority of cases, as pertaining to every individual ever born (rather than simply saying it means not just the Jews but also the Gentiles) why would a loving God declare that he "wants all (as you define all) men to be saved", 1 Tim 2:4, when he knew way in advance not every human being is going to hear the Gospel message? Remembering that the "gospel is the power of God unto salvation" and "faith comes from hearing". In your post you use quite a few verses that contain the word "believe", and at the end of your post you have the phrase "JUST believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" Can you explain the meaning of 1 Cor 15:2,"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have BELIEVED IN VAIN"?
Your quote:
Quote:

George, Can you explain a couple things in regards to your post on Limited Atonement? Since you take the words "all men" and "whole world", in the majority of cases, as pertaining to every individual ever born (rather than simply saying it means not just the Jews but also the Gentiles)”
By combining my individual statements about “all men” with the “whole world” you blurred the clear distinctions that I made between the two! I distinctly said:

My quote:
Quote:

“Unlike those that will follow (“all”, “all men”, etc.) the Calvinists cannot CHANGE the word “world” to mean something other than what it means – ‘THE WORLD’!”
The use of the term “the world” or “the whole world”, when used by God or His Prophets, Servants, Apostles, etc. always means “the whole world” (which would include both Jews and Gentiles, of course). I did not say “in the majority of cases”.

I also made it crystal clear that the terms “all” or “all men” must be determined by the CONTEXT, and that “many of these verses will be “turned on their head and challenged by Calvinists by the use of QUESTIONS:” – which is EXACTLY what you are now doing! :eek:

To be precise, I said:
Quote:

“The following verses present more support against the doctrine of Limited Atonement”. However, many of these verses will be “turned on their head” and challenged by Calvinists by the use of QUESTIONS: ‘Does “ALL” really mean ALL – Doesn’t it really mean ‘ALL THE ELECT’? ‘Does “ALL MEN” really mean ALL MEN – Doesn’t it really mean ‘ALL THE ELECT’? ‘Does “EVERY MAN” really mean EVERY MAN – Doesn’t it really mean ‘ALL THE ELECT’? You see how it goes?”
You see JerryW, you aren't sincerely interested in my "explanations" - you are far more interested in trying to trip me up in my words. {Do the words “insincere” or “disingenuous” mean anything to you?}

I have reviewed all 10 Posts that you have made on this Forum since you joined nearly a year ago. Seven (70%) of those Posts are on Calvinism, which demonstrates that you are a fully committed Calvinist (that is Calvinistic doctrine is the “basis” or “foundation” of your “Belief System”.); and your other three Posts clearly demonstrate that you have no idea on how to “rightly divide the word of truth”.

And now onto your "loaded" question #1: “why would a loving God declare that he "wants all (as you define all) men to be saved", 1 Tim 2:4, when he knew way in advance not every human being is going to hear the Gospel message?”

Are you serious? Your question reveals an infantile attempt to “rationalize” WHY God does what He does. Is Almighty God unjust? “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” [Genesis 18:25] Is God "the Judge of all the earth" or just "part" of the earth? Does "all" in the verse mean "ALL" or just "part"? :rolleyes: Would He send someone to Hell that didn’t deserve to be there because they didn’t “hear” the Gospel of the Grace of God? Have you not read?

Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; {Guess what? “ALL” is not just confined to your private interpretation of “All” – IT MEANS ALL!}

Psalms 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. {Are there any exemptions to “every one” or “altogether”? Who does this verse apply to - if not “ALL”?}

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. {“all” = ALL – as in “ALL”! I can deal with ignorance – what I have great difficulty dealing with is “duplicity” and outright disingenuousness”!}

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are withou texcuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Job 12:7 But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
8 Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? {Almost all of "educated" modern day man!}
10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
11 Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?

Do you think, for even a moment, that just because a man doesn’t “hear” the Gospel of the Grace of God, that he will not be held accountable or that he will be declared innocent? The whole of creation and the creatures in it are “witness” enough to the existence of God – all men are “without excuse”, whether they have heard the Gospel or not! [Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.] There’s that dreaded wordBELIEVE” again!

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Job 33:12 Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.

Without the Lord Jesus Christ, all of mankind is hopelessly lost (that’s why God inspired and preserved His word and instituted the Gospel, and that’s why God calls “preachers” [Romans 10:14-18]) But what if they haven’t heard – are they exempt from the judgment of God? I trow not! [Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; {“ALL”, in the CONTEXT, MEANS “ALL”!}

Job 16:19 Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.

Job 14:16 For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?
17 My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

Job 9:28 I am afraid of all my sorrows, I know that thou wilt not hold me innocent.

Job 10:14 If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.
15 If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction;

The above words were uttered by Job, about whom, God said: “that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil.” [Job 1:8] If a man like Job couldn’t make it on his own – who can? With the exception of the Lord Jesus Christ, has there ever been a man (or a woman) born of a woman who was (or is) without sin?

How about a few more sophomoric questions {from yours truly}:

WHY? - Would God choose the Hebrews, “above all the nations that are upon the earth” {out of all the people in the world}, to be His people? Doesn’t that seem to be extremely “narrow” and “unreasonable” from your point of view?

Deuteronomy 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

Deuteronomy 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

Isaiah 48:9 For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

WHY? – Would God choose to commit “the Oracles of God” (the Old Testament) to just the Jews (Hebrews) and no one else? What about the rest of the world? Hmmm? Doesn’t the fact that God committed the Holy Scriptures (His words) to some obscure and little known nation in the land of Canaan “seem” to be just a bit “unfair” to all the rest of the world? :rolleyes:

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

WHY? – Are you trying to “rationalize”, or figure out the reasons that God does, or doesn’t do something?

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Loaded question #2 - Your quote:
Quote:

“Can you explain the meaning of 1 Cor 15:2,"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have BELIEVED IN VAIN"?
Let’s clear the air about “Belief Systems”:

Everyone has a “Belief System”! Atheists BELIEVE that there is NO GOD; Agnostics BELIEVE that they aren’t sure if there is a God; Hindus BELIEVE that there are thousands of gods; Muslims BELIEVE that “Allah” is the “one true god”; Humanists BELIEVE that man is his own “god” (Humanism has spawned Communism, Nazism, Fascism; and Socialism – all “Belief Systems” within Humanism.)

I do not believe that people who have embraced the above religions (and many other religions that do not profess belief in Christ) have “believed in vain”, because what they profess to believe is vanity already. How can someone believe “in vain”, if what they believe in is completely contrary to the Holy Scriptures, and is a total lie?

I believe that when a person has “BELIEVED IN VAIN”, that they have “believed” some things ABOUT Jesus Christ, but they haven’t “BELIEVEDIN Him, or ON Him, or RECEIVED him. I will illustrate my belief with the following examples:

“J.B.” (Catholic) was a good friend of mine for about 12 years. During that time I and my wife witnessed to him (and his wife) on many occasions. Now “J.B.” was a forthright, honest, and hardworking man, who had a great deal of integrity and always endeavored to keep his word. He was perhaps the brightest and most talented man I have ever met in my life, but he stumbled at the “simplicity that is in Christ”. He believed that Christ was virgin born; he believed that Christ was God in the flesh; he believed that Christ rose from the dead; he believed that Christ performed miracles; and he believed that Christ died for sins.

What “J.B.” didn’t believe was that Christ’s sacrifice was completely sufficient for his sins - without “J.B.” having to do something more to earn his personal salvation. What “J.B.” didn’t do, was to BELIEVE ON or IN the Lord Jesus Christ and so he didn’t RECEIVE Him. He believed a whole lot of things ABOUT Christ without ever accepting the Gospel of the Grace of God; without ever trusting the work of the Lord on the cross as being complete - FINISHED. I believe that “J.B.” “BELIEVED IN VAIN”.

I have another Catholic friend (“E.S.”). “E.S.” believes that Christ was virgin born; he believes that Christ was God in the flesh; he believes that Christ rose from the dead; he believes that Christ performed miracles; he believes that Christ is coming soon to establish His Kingdom; and he believes that Christ died for sins.

He doesn’t believe that the Pope is “infallible”; nor does he think that the Catholic Church is the ONE AND ONLY “Apostolic Church” on earth. This man only gives $1.00 dollar a week to the Catholic Church (because of the Priest pedophile scandal) and the rest of his “tithe” he gives to various charities that support homeless children around the world. When it comes to honesty and integrity “E.S.” would put most Christians to shame, but “E.S.” also stumbles at the “simplicity that is in Christ”.

In the 13 years I have known “E.S.” I have witnessed to him dozens of times. Unlike most Catholics, he enjoys talking about the Lord and about the Bible – but he just can’t accept that the Lord Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary is completely sufficient for his sins. No matter how many times I have presented the Gospel of the Grace of God (in every way that I can possibly think of) “E.S.” just won’t BELIEVE ON or IN Jesus Christ for his personal salvation. I believe that “E.S” has “BELIEVED IN VAIN”.

There’s also was a man I knew (“D.R.”) back in the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, who installed Sheetrock (Drywall) in several houses that I built. “D.R.” was an EX Pentecostal, raised in Pentecostal churches, and who at one time was very active in “church work”. When I met “D.R.” he was a fornicating, foul mouthed, drug using, booze hound.

Because most of the crew that worked on the houses I built were Christians, we would often have some lively conversations about the Lord or the Bible during our “coffee breaks” or at lunch time – which “D.R.” would often overhear. There finally came a time when “D.R.” felt comfortable enough to speak to me about his “Christian” past, and he said to me: “I once was like you. I used to go to church three or four times a week; I participated in the church activities; I was even a Sunday school teacher; but I no longer believe in that stuff”. Of course I attempted to witness to “D.R.” - without any success.

Now “D.R.” (at one time) believed a lot of things ABOUT Christ, and at one time he believed in his church, and was very active in church work, but what “D.R.” had never done was to BELIEVE ON or IN the Lord Jesus Christ. He never trusted Christ as his personal Saviour, and so he never RECEIVED him. I believe that “D.R.” - “BELIEVED IN VAIN”.

Please bear with me, I have one more example. I met my oldest and best friend (besides the Lord and my wife) - Ray in 1968. Off and on we would work together in construction, and from 1968 through 1973, I would often have serious talks with Ray about the Bible and about the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ray was raised in a devout Pentecostal home (If you can believe this – his mother was a Pentecostal “preacher/pastor” for a while!). Ray had been around the Bible, preaching, and church practically all of his life, but the one thing that Ray had never done, was to trust the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour!

From 1968 up to late 1972 I tried every thing that I could think of to get Ray to understand “the simplicity that is in Christ” – to no avail. He believed everything ABOUT Christ that I believed. He wasn’t an “Apostate” or a “Reprobate”; he wasn’t “insincere” or “disingenuous”; he loved to talk about the Scriptures and the Lord (and still does), he just stumbled at the Gospel, he just couldn’t accept the finished work of Christ on the Cross (Ray thought that there just had to be more to Salvation – that is: "we just had to do something to keep it”).

After five years of witnessing and testifying to Ray I was running out of words (which I hardly ever do! :D). It was close to Christmas and I finally came up with an idea, (a poor simile to be sure) of how Salvation works. I told Ray that if he would imagine a Christmas tree, and underneath it there was a GIFT marked Ray H.; and I said that GIFT is for you, and you know it’s for you, but unless you BELIEVE that GIFT is for you personally, and unless you RECEIVE it personally, you’ll never get to enjoy it. You can look at that GIFT all you want, and possibly "think" that that GIFT is for me; you can pick up that GIFT and say I'm pretty sure this is for me; you can shake that GIFT and think it must be something good; but unless you really and truly BELIEVE IN that GIFT and RECEIVE it – it will never be yours. It’s there for the taking, but you must BELIEVE and RECEIVE it, in order for it to be yours personally. {Of course I was talking about the GIFT of Salvation that the Lord Jesus Christ purchased for us all.}

Nothing happened then, but a few days later I received a call at about 11:00 O’clock at night - it was Ray, and he said: “George, I got saved!” I didn’t “lead” Ray to the Lord, the Holy Spirit did. Ray was sincere; he just didn’t understand “the simplicity that is in Christ”. For a long time Ray had believed practically all of the things ABOUT Christ that I did, he just had never trusted Him as his personal Saviour. Before Ray got saved – he had “BELIEVED IN VAIN” and would have died in his sins if he hadn’t BELIEVED ON or IN the Lord Jesus Christ, and RECEIVED Him as his personal Saviour.

Charles Spurgeon was the greatest preacher of the 19th. Century. Spurgeon was a master of the English language and spoke (and wrote) so eloquently that he would put any 50 preachers in America (today) to shame. He also was a "moderate" Calvinist.

While Spurgeon was on his death bed, one of the last things he is recorded to have said is: "My theology has gotten quite simple - CHRIST DIED FOR ME"! Now he didn't say 'Christ died for the ELECT' - Charles Spurgeon had honed his "THEOLOGY" down to JUST FOUR (4) WORDS: "CHRIST DIED FOR ME".

Whenever Christians depart from "the simplicity that is in Christ", they are treading on dangerous ground. They are either guilty of ADDING to the Holy words of God; or SUBTRACTING from them; or CHANGING them. I, for one, will endeavor to keep it simple, straightforward, and as plain as I can - "and let the chips fall where there may".

Now, JerryW, I have dealt with your “foolish and unlearned questions” for the last time. I have made it a standing rule (for the last 15 years or so) that once I perceive that a person is insincere and disingenuous, I leave off dealing with them. I have answered your “loaded” questions, in accordance with the Scriptures.

Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.” [Proverbs 26:5]

Proverbs 29:20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

I will no longer answer any more of your “loaded” questions because in accordance with Scripture:

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.[Proverbs 26:4]

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Luke 02-23-2009 08:09 PM

Why is Calvinism so popular? Why does the list of popular preachers today (that aren't of the self help pursuasion) predominately calvinists...

MacArthur, Washer, Sproul, Packer, Piper, Stanley etc

George 02-23-2009 08:31 PM

Re: " CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 15800)
Why is Calvinism so popular? Why does the list of popular preachers today (that aren't of the self help pursuasion) predominately calvinists...

MacArthur, Washer, Sproul, Packer, Piper, Stanley etc

Aloha Luke,

I believe that one of the main reasons that Calvinism is so popular is that Calvinism appeals to the "intellect", so it's real "Big" amongst the "academia" crowd. Everything is worked out ahead of time for Calvinists (i.e. a ”system of biblical interpretation and theological formulations) so they don't have to do their own individual research and study. {Kind of like College - No?} :(

chette777 02-24-2009 02:31 AM

George,

I suspect that answering Jerry had distracted you from studying out the other 2 parts of the Tulip. But we were patient as you were with dealing with his questions.

Good job and good answers

we are all looking forward to your IP Outlines and study

Forrest 02-24-2009 11:40 AM

A word to JerryW...
 
Jerry, I personally know the difficulty of understanding and believing something the Bible clearly addresses when my mind is already made up. I do not know how old you are, I guess it doesn't really matter. But there came a point in my life that I stopped being afraid of God showing me "in scripture" where I've been wrong.

I earnestly plead with you to carefully and prayerfully re-read Brother George's exposition of scripture regarding Calvinism. We should not disregard the written word of truth because of our previous "mindset" or "sinful pride". Get alone, be still, and listen to the instruction of the Lord through the word and by the Holy Spirit. I think this is reasonable instruction for a professed Christian.

PeterAV 02-27-2009 11:28 AM

I have read all of Calvin, and the small amount that Arminius wrote.
I see lumping all Calvinists into into certain categories.
Using the TULIP as a straw man to tear down.

George,
you mean to say that you do not believe in eternal security?
I KNOW you do.
I saw your salvation video. [witnessing to some fellow that went to some church around the block].
You distictly told that man that he did not earn his salvation, and therefore could never loose it. Right?
*******
After reading Calvin and Arminius both among many others several times.
I am definitely NOT Arminian. Even though Arminius was much more Calvinistic than many people give him credit for, but he did raise a few questions and eventually stuck to his own thoughts.
*******
I basically am not a true Calvinist as many like to compartmentalize. ["All Calvinists MUST believe such and such in this section."]
I simply take God's word as the definer.
Once saved, always saved is biblical, yet this true Bible doctrine, is abused by many just like the grace of God.
Even whole church systems get sucked into this abusive greasy grace style, by almost complimenting each other in the sin they allow in their lives.
This abuse of a Biblical doctrine is definitely not right.

Gord 02-27-2009 03:58 PM

Brother George, I so appreciate the work you have put into this study. With your decades of walking in the spirit, you have graced those of us in this forum who are privileged to have the opportunity to absorb that edification you share with us, on all topics.

I have since the beginning of February printed and poured over each of your lesson's on Calvinism.

I am convinced that you took this time to teach me personally and for that I thank you.

As Paul instructed, I too will...
Colossians 4:2 Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving; for your continued edification's.

Thank you and bless you.

George 02-27-2009 04:30 PM

Re: "CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"
 
Quote:

"I have read all of Calvin, and the small amount that Arminius wrote.
I see lumping all Calvinists into into certain categories.
Using the TULIP as a straw man to tear down.

George,
you mean to say that you do not believe in eternal security?
I KNOW you do.

I saw your salvation video. [witnessing to some fellow that went to some church around the block].
You distictly told that man that he did not earn his salvation, and therefore could never loose it. Right?"

Aloha PeterAV,

I don't know WHO'S "Salvation Video" you saw, but I can assure you it wasn't mine! :confused:

I have NEVER made a "Salvation Video". As a matter of fact, I have never made a "Video" dealing with Salvation or any other topic from the Bible - so it must have been someone else.

In regards to whether I believe in ETERNAL SALVATION (and the corresponding PRESERVATION of the Saints) - the answer is unequivocally YES! Please check the following URL {My Thread - "What Would Happen IF You Could LOSE your Salvation?"}: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...82&postcount=1

If you have any other questions about where I stand on God's Preservation of His saints, you might check out these also:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...03&postcount=3
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=13
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...7&postcount=11
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...0&postcount=72
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...8&postcount=39
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...7&postcount=31
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=67

As far as your statement is concerned:
Quote:

"I see lumping all Calvinists into into certain categories.
Using the TULIP as a straw man to tear down.
"
I try real hard not to "lump" people into "certain categories". Having said that, if a man identifies himself as a "Calvinist", then he must agree with much, if not all of Calvinism, otherwise why identify himself with John Calvin's teachings?

My Posts on Calvinism are not meant to castigate Calvinists per se, they are meant to compare Calvinist doctrine with the Holy Scriptures. T.U.L.I.P. is what Calvinism is known by, and so I have based my comparison on that famous acronym.

The fact that all Calvinists don't agree on everything that John Calvin taught is not very relevant, (have you ever met two Baptists that agree on everything? :confused:) since if a person identifies himself as a Calvinist, he is in essence professing Calvinism publicly - even if he "differs" with John Calvin on some points.

Quote:

"After reading Calvin and Arminius both among many others several times.
I am definitely NOT Arminian. Even though Arminius was much more Calvinistic than many people give him credit for, but he did raise a few questions and eventually stuck to his own thoughts.
*******
I basically am not a true Calvinist as many like to compartmentalize. ["All Calvinists MUST believe such and such in this section."]
I simply take God's word as the definer.
Once saved, always saved is biblical, yet this true Bible doctrine, is abused by many just like the grace of God.
Even whole church systems get sucked into this abusive greasy grace style, by almost complimenting each other in the sin they allow in their lives.
This abuse of a Biblical doctrine is definitely not right.
"
As a Bible believer, I don't see any need to "identify" with Calvinism, Arminianism, or any other "ISM", for that matter. If you read my initial "Thread" and all of the Posts I have made concerning this issue, I think that I have made myself perfectly clear, in that I want nothing to do with either "camp". And I refuse to identify myself with them, and I also refuse to be LABELED by them - "Thank you very much"! :)

The "abuse" of Bible doctrine is so prevalent today that it is practically impossible to find a church in the U.S.A. that comes even close to the New Testament "example" left for us in God's Holy word. But that doesn't prevent individual Christians from seeking God and worshiping Him "in spirit and in truth".

My purpose for being on this Forum is to both "edify" and be "edified". I have met some wonderful brethren in Christ here and have appreciated many of their Posts and comments.

I hope this short Post answers any questions you may have about my stand on Calvinism. If not, read or re-read my Posts on this Thread and my Post on "Irresistible Grace" - coming soon.

George 02-27-2009 04:44 PM

Re:"CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gord (Post 15987)
Brother George, I so appreciate the work you have put into this study. With your decades of walking in the spirit, you have graced those of us in this forum who are privileged to have the opportunity to absorb that edification you share with us, on all topics.

I have since the beginning of February printed and poured over each of your lesson's on Calvinism.

I am convinced that you took this time to teach me personally and for that I thank you.

As Paul instructed, I too will...
Colossians 4:2 Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving; for your continued edification's.

Thank you and bless you.

Aloha brother Gord,

Thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words.:)

It is my hope and prayer that everything that I teach (in church; or on my web page; or here on the Forum) will be true (according to the Scriptures), and that it might edify the brethren and be a blessing.

I deeply appreciate your response to the Posts, and should I ever say or teach something contrary to God's word, I encourage you to speak up and let me know.

Lately, when I get into studying the Holy words of God, I recognize just how little I really know, and it makes me realize that there is so little time left to learn what I should have learned years ago.

Winman 02-27-2009 05:37 PM

Quote:

In your post you use quite a few verses that contain the word "believe", and at the end of your post you have the phrase "JUST believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" Can you explain the meaning of 1 Cor 15:2,"By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have BELIEVED IN VAIN"?
The answer to your question is found in the rest of the chapter.

And what is the subject of the chapter? Not just that Christ died for our sins and was buried, but also that he rose again the third day.

1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Then...

1 Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

So, what they were to hold firmly to was that not only did Jesus die for our sins and was buried, but that He also rose from dead.

1 Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.


1 Cor 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

George 02-27-2009 06:10 PM

Re: "CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 15994)
"The answer to your question is found in the rest of the chapter.

And what is the subject of the chapter? Not just that Christ died for our sins and was buried, but also that he rose again the third day.
"

1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

"Then..."

1 Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

"So, what they were to hold firmly to was that not only did Jesus die for our sins and was buried, but that He also rose from dead."

1 Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1 Cor 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.


Aloha brother Winman,

I appreciate your Post #61, and I believe that you have a real good Scriptural point. The context of 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 is obviously "The Resurrection" - especially the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Contextually the statement "you have believed in vain" would apply to the fact that some of the Corinthians hadn't accepted ALL of the Gospel, i.e. the Resurrection - hence they would "have believed in vain."

I believe your explanation is far more succinct and to the point, than my Post #52. Although I believe that what I said would cover your very accurate explanation, I should have pointed out the contextual application before giving a broader application.

I said:
Quote:

"I believe that when a person has “BELIEVED IN VAIN”, that they have “believed” some things ABOUT Jesus Christ, but they haven’t “BELIEVEDIN Him, or ON Him, or RECEIVED him. I will illustrate my belief with the following examples:"
I am going to "modify" my lesson in the future and incorporate your comments in it. Again, thanks so much - that was an excellent point that I missed. :confused:

chette777 02-27-2009 06:42 PM

These men who Identify them selves as Calvinist will say their doctrine is Biblical will claim this verse, 2Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. In the end make Paul teaching a TULIP.

though Mac Arthur, Scolfield and the rest are men who may have been faithful to their doctrine, they may have been good and godly men. but that does not mean they are correct in the investment of the TULIP.

Luke 03-01-2009 02:29 PM

George, it seems that PeterAV probably has you confused with Steven Anderson (same surname), who made a soulwinning demo tape.

It also seems that PeterAV is probably not a calvinist at all from what I have read of him before, but associates eternal security with calvinism, and loss of salvation with arminianism. If confronted with all 5 points, he would probably claim to be a 1 point calvinist. Maybe not though..

MC1171611 03-01-2009 05:23 PM

The largest problem I've noticed is the tendency of the uninformed to equate "Perserverance of the Saints" with Eternal Security - Nothing could be farther from the truth! The final doctrine of the Calvinists' whithered flower is nothing more than staying in God's good graces through good works, or that anyone who is part of the mythical "Elect" might lose their salvation, but at the time that they die they will all be right with God and "saved."

Anyone who knows anything about their Bible knows that a Christian is sealed, separated, Spiritually circumcised and sanctified at the moment of salvation, and he would have to be "unborn" in order to lose his state with God. Eternal Security, in contrast to Calvinism's "P" doctrine, is that a Saved person CANNOT lose his salvation in any way after being sanctified.

Calvinism: can lose salvation but will inevitably regain it before death/rapture

Bible: cannot lose salvation in any way for any reason whatsoever

chette777 03-01-2009 07:31 PM

:amen:

George 03-02-2009 09:28 PM

Re: "CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"
 
Aloha all,


I want to apologize for the delay in this Post, but I have been somewhat "distracted" by other issues, both here on the Forum, and elsewhere. The following Post is my fifth Post on Calvinism and covers the Fourth Tenet (premise) of Calvinistic doctrine - "Irresistible Grace".

T.U.L.I.P.{the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

I = “Irresistible Grace”

Calvinists state:

Quote:

When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.”
Once again we are presented with another Calvinist doctrine which is established with the aid of another additional word that cannot be found in the Holy Bible, i.e. “Irresistible”. In the course of studying the five (5) major tenets (premises) of Calvinism, it has become perfectly clear that Calvinists enlist “catch words” that are foreign to the Holy Scriptures, (i.e. “Total;Depravity”; “Unconditional”; “Irresistible; “External”; “Internal) “catch words” that are cleverly used to influence an inquirer, in order to establish their doctrines. Shouldn’t the use of these extra-Biblical words (by Calvinists) be considered ADDING to the Holy words of God? If not – what should it be called?

It should also be noted that the Calvinists that I have quoted from the Calvinist Corner are using some other translation (?), other than the King James Bible – their quote:
Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy";

Whereas the Holy Bible says: Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Now, almost all Christians know (or at least they should know) that God hasmercy”. Mercy is one of the five main “Moral Attributes” of God. However, according to the King James Bible, in Romans 9:16 it is “God that sheweth mercy”. The verse is not stating the obvious fact that God POSSESSES the Moral Attribute, i.e. Mercy - WHO doesn’t know that? The verse is talking about God DEMONSTRATING that Mercy! {Just another “minordifference - amongst thousands of the so-called “minordifferences between the Holy Bible and another imitation bible.}

I’m not claiming that all Calvinists have embraced the corrupt modern translations, I know better than that. But it is interesting how, many Calvinists won’t hesitate to ADD words foreign to the Bible in order to establish their doctrines; or they will have no shame in substituting words such as “SICK” for “WICKED”, or “SLAVE” for “SERVANT”; or “HAS” for “SHEWETH”; etc.; etc.; ad infinitum; to enforce their preconceived notions.

I believe that Almighty God is “SOVEREIGN” {All Powerful}. I believe that God can do whatever He “WILLS”. After all, the God of the Bible is the ONE TRUE GOD; the ETERNAL “I AM” {Self Existing [without beginning or end of existence] Immortal-Perpetual-Unchangeable}. I firmly believe in God’s substantive attributes: I believe in GOD’S OMNISCIENCE {All-Knowing - All-Seeing}; I believe in GOD’S OMNIPRESENCE {Present Everywhere - in all places at the same time}; and I believe in GOD’S OMNIPOTENCE {All Powerful – Unlimited Power}.

I also believe that God WILL NOT (Cannot) do anything that is CONTRARY to His Moral Character. And since Almighty God is HOLY, JUST, TRUE, LOVING, and MERCIFUL; He Will Not (CANNOT) do anything that goes against His basic MORAL “FACULTIES”. For example God CANNOT LIE:

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I do not question God’s Sovereignty, however, it is abundantly clear from Scripture that there are some things that God either CANNOT do, or WILL NOT do. And recognizing this fact does not, in any way, detract from Almighty God’s Sovereignty. Instead, it establishes all of God’s “Attributes” {Substantive & Moral} – especially His HOLINESS”.

There are many verses in the Holy Scriptures that clearly demonstrate men resisting God or God’s Will. I can not cite them all, but I will cite many of the major ones.

Please read all of Psalm 78. The whole Psalm is a “Parable” of God continually reaching out to His people (Israel) and their continual unbelief, disobedience, and rejection of His will for them. If there is such a thing as IrresistibleGrace - whatever happened with His CHOSEN people?

The following sample verses from Psalm 78 “illustrate” the point:

Psalms 78:40 How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Ps 78:32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.

Psalms 78:37 For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.
Psalms 78:56 Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:
57 But turned back, and dealt unfaithfully like their fathers: they were turned aside like a deceitful bow.

What is the “problem” with God’s “CHOSEN” people (Israel)? Is it because they are not part of the “Elect”? If so, WHY doesn’t God say so, instead of inspiring David to state:

Psalm 78:22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:

Did you get that? There’s BELIEF AGAIN! And herein lays the “PROBLEM”. How many times does God have to repeat something before it “takes”? God’s people (Jews & Christians) have always had a “problem” with BELIEVING. As a matter of fact, the “stumbling block” for ALL people (Jews & Gentiles alike) has always been BELIEF – either in God’s word (written & oral) and in the “WORD” {INCARNATE}! [Matthew 21;42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8; Romans 9:32-33]

Psalm 78 clearly demonstrates God’s people (Israel) continually thwarting God’s will for them. But how about testimony from the New Testament? What does it have to say about this issue? [Romans 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.]

Please read Chapter 7 of the book of Acts. In Acts 7:1-60 Stephen gives a very short “synopsis” of the history of the Jewish (Hebrew) people; from the call of Abraham (the first Hebrew) up to and including the life/death/burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

We have David’s testimony that God’s people (Israel) “LIMITED THE Holy One of Israel”. We have Stephen’s testimony that God’s people, (Israel) in the past and up to Stephen’s time, “do always RESIST the Holy Ghost”! What about the Lord Jesus Christ’s testimony concerning this issue? What does the Lord have to say?

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

What Did the Lord Jesus Christ say? HOW OFTEN WOULD I . . . . AND YE WOULD NOT!

How much more do Bible believers “need” to convince them that God’s people can LIMIT God; RESIST the Holy Ghost; and DEFY God’s Will for them? Hmmm? So then, with the crystal clear and irrefutable testimony of the written word of God, and the Holy Son of God - what is Calvinism doing teaching IRRESISTIBLEGRACE? Is God sovereign? Of course He is! But, can God’s people RESIST and LIMIT God? According to the Holy Scriptures – they sure can.

I don’t recommend it, but I know, from personal experience, that a good portion of my life (since I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour) has been spent resisting God’s will for me. I’m not proud of it, but that’s the plain, unvarnished truth! I thank God for His love, His mercy, and His longsuffering patience. It would be the height of hypocrisy for me to claim that everything that I have done, since I got saved, is according to God’s will – I know better!

If Israel (Jews/Hebrews – lost or saved) could LIMIT God [Psalm 78:41]; RESIST God [Acts 7:51]; and RESIST God’s will [Matthew 23:37 & Luke 13:34]; and I, as a born again child of God, can RESIST God’s will, WHY would someone think that a lost person (man or woman) CAN’T RESIST God’s Will – when it comes to salvation?

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

The above verse is perfectly clear. GOD “WILL have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” Someone will have to twist the Scripture, and turn it on its head in order to make it say something other than what it just said. Oh, I know: “ALL MEN” doesn’t reallymeanALL MEN (as in “ALL”), IT REALLY MEANS –“just the elect” . . . . . . But we’ve heard that “Song” before (and it’s getting pretty OLD!)

IF God “will have all men to be saved” – then WHAT is the problem? The “problem” is NOT that some are elected into salvation, others are not. The “problem” is: “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” [John 5:40]; the “problem” is a REFUSAL to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ [Luke 22:67; John 4:48; 6:64; 8:24; 16:7-11; 2Corinthians 4:3-4; 20:25] so that they can come unto Him that they “might have life”.. The clear testimony of the Scripture is that there are “some” who “will not come to me, that ye might have life”. WHAT happened to When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. {i.e. IRRESISTIBLEGRACE?}

Let’s examine John 5:40 in context and see if we can get some “light” on the matter:

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

WHY would the Lord Jesus Christ say: “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” [John 5:40] - IF the doctrine of “IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE were true? Wouldn’t He have said: “And (because ye are not among the elect) ye will not come to me, that ye might have life”? WHY does the Lord introduce the word “BELIEVE” 5 times in 4 verses (verses 44-47) in the context, and never mention “elect”, “elected”, or “election” ONCE?

What about Titus 2:11:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Since we all know that the preceding verse is true [Romans 3:4], WHY don’t ALL MEN get saved - IF “IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE is also true? Please read the verse carefully over again. The only way you can annul the clear teaching of the verse is if you CHANGEALL MEN to something other than ALL MENlike ALL THE ELECT; or EVERY KIND OF MAN; etc; etc; I believe the verse (WHERE it stands & HOW it stands). I don’t profess to understand all of its implications – I just accept it without any reservations or changes.

Let’s examine Luke 8:11-12 in regards to this issue:

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

What about Luke 8:12: “lest they should believe and be saved”? IF IRRESISTIBLEGRACE is true, WHAT is Satan doing taking away the word out of someone’s heart “lest they believe”? IF they are the elect, “they cannot resist” anyway, so why does the devil (who knows the Scriptures far better than John Calvin - or any of his followers) even bother, since the elect cannotresist God’s Grace? It’s very simple really: Satan KNOWS that the “Key” to SALVATION is when a person “BELIEVES” (in his heart) on the Lord Jesus Christ - that they are SAVED for eternity, and so he does every thing in his power to prevent them from “BELIEVING”! {IF “IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE were true – he wouldn’t waste 5 minutes trying to prevent someone from “believing”, since, according to Calvinism, they can’t “resist” the Gospel of the Grace of God anyway!}

It’s impossible (for me) to list even half of the verses in the Holy Bible where people (lost and saved) have resisted God or God’s will. One of the main themes of the Bible is man’s continual defiance, disobedience and rebellion against God and His Holy word. The idea that God “forces” people (against their will) to BELIEVE in Him is absurd! Under the Law the Jews were obligated to OBEY Him (although He didn’t force them to BELIEVE in Him.). Under GRACE, the Lord is seeking those people, who WILLINGLY BELIEVE IN Him; who WILLINGLY come to Him; who WILLINGLY worship Him; and who WILLINGLY obey Him [John 4:23-24].

Does the Scriptural requirement of BELIEF in order to RECEIVE God’s salvation negate those verses where it says: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” [John 6:44] Of course not! But those verses must be understood in the context of: John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. WHO does the Father draw? Why those who “come” to Him BY THE Lord Jesus Christ. And HOW is this accomplished? Why, by believingon the Lord Jesus Christ” [Acts 16:31]. You cannot separate or divorce Scripture from Scripture or take verses out of context in order to establish a “pet” doctrine to reinforce your “belief system”.

Under GRACE there is NO Fear, NO Intimidation, NO Coercion, or “Force”! If God wanted men and women to be like robots, He would have made Himself some more Angels.

In 1Corinthians 9:2 Paul is “made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
[1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.] IFIRRESISTIBLE” GRACE is true, why should Paul have bothered, since the elect can’t “resist” God’s call, and the rest are “plumb out of luck”? Can you see how preposterous this “doctrine” is?

What about the following verses:

Proverbs 1:22How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

In the preceding verses we have God’s CALL, and people REFUSING that CALL; we have “no man” regarding, and wanting NONE of God’s reproof; there are people in these verses, who “have at set at nought all my (God’s) counsel”; you have people who “hated knowledge”, and who “despised all my (God’s) reproof”; the Scriptures clearly state that those people “did not choose the fear of the Lord” and “they would none of my counsel.

What happened to “IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE? What is going on? WHY do Christians accept and “embrace” such a doctrine that is so contrary to the Scriptural record?

Here a few (a very few) more verses demonstrating that people, from Adam up to our present time, have always “resisted” God and His Holy word.

Jeremiah 35:15 I have sent also unto you all my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, Return ye now every man from his evil way, and amend your doings, and go not after other gods to serve them, and ye shall dwell in the land which I have given to you and to your fathers: but ye have not inclined your ear, nor hearkened unto me.

Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

Deuteronomy 1:26 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:

Deuteronomy 1:43 So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill.

Deuteronomy 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.

Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Jeremiah 29:19 Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.

Calvinists state:
God offers to all people the gospel message.

I challenge anyone to find the term “the gospel message” in the Holy Bible. God is very careful not to “combine” the two words – “gospel” & “message” together in His Holy word so that no one makes the mistake of thinking God’s WORDS are just a “message”. The “Gospel” of the Grace of God uses very specific words – NOT the “message” that is being preached on radio & TV throughout the USA.

“This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted.This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.”

Calvinists state:

“Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"
[Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.]

All genuine Bible believers believe the preceding verse, so where’s the “external” or “internal call”? What in the world does this have to do with IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE?

Calvinists state:
Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are . . . . . Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual;[Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.]

Let’s get this straight – According to these Calvinists, Philippians 2:12 says: “God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual;! Are these people serious? Can they not READ? Philippians 2:12 says NOTHING OF THE KIND! I will remind all Calvinists - The Lord Jesus Christ said IT IS FINISHED!” [John 19:30] God is NOTworking salvation in the individual” – He’s working in Christians “both to will and to do of His good pleasure.” We’re already saved for all eternity; The Lord Jesus Christ FINISHED the work of salvation on the cross; there’s NOTHING left to do in regards to salvation (on God’s part or ours) period! The only thing left, is for God to work in us, so that we might seek His will and do “His good pleasure.”

Calvinists state:
Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are . . . . . John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God;

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

We are commanded to “rightly divide the word of truth” - Question: Do you see the wordFAITH” in either verse? Someone is CHANGING the words of God to establish their own doctrine! The word “FAITH” is NOT the same as the word “BELIEVE”!

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Let’s get the chronology of salvation straight, shall we:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

We BELIEVE FIRST, and then we RECEIVE FAITH! Calvinism confuses the 2 words – they are NOT THE SAME! We are NOT “justified” by our BELIEF – we are justified “by the faith of Jesus Christ”. The following links to Posts on the Forum goes into far more depth on the difference between these two words:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=117

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=261
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...&postcount=267
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=13
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...9&postcount=13


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The Scriptures cited, plainly say that the “work of God” is to get people (all men) to “believe on Him whom He hath sent” – the word “faith” is NOT in either verse. The way that God goes about this “work” is through His written Holy word; the Holy Spirit (convincing & convicting); and the preaching (by men) of the “Gospel” (NOT some “message”).

Calvinists state:
Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are . . . . . Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe;

Acts 13:46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Question: Does this one verse [Acts 13:48] “negate” all of the verses on this matter cited previously? Are there contradictions in the Holy Bible? I trow not! Does verse 48 say “God appoints people to believe;”? I don’t think so! So WHAT does it say? It says: “as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” It DOES NOT SAY: “God appoints people to believe”! Instead of CHANGING God’s words or twisting them to make them say what we want them to say - Let’s try to “rightly divide” the verse:

Question: WHO is “ordained”? Answer: THOSE whom God “foreknew”. Question: WHO did God “foreknow”? Answer: THOSE whom God did “predestinate”. Question: WHO did God “predestinate”? Answer: THOSE whom He “called”. Question: WHO did God “call”? Answer: THOSE whom He “justified”. Question: WHO did God “JUSTIFY”? Answer: THOSE who received “faith”. Question: WHO received “faith”? Answer: THOSE who “BELIEVEDON THE Lord Jesus Christ! {That wasn’t so hard – was it?} ;)

Quote:

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Calvinists state:
Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are . . . . . and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

WHAT Romans 9:16;Philippians 2:12-13;John 6:28;-29Acts 13:48; and John 1:12-13 have to do with IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE is beyond me. Those verses certainly don’t PROVE the Calvinistic doctrine – NOT by a long shot! And it is even more obvious that the verses have NOTHING to do with a so-calledEXTERNAL” CALL or an “INTERNAL” CALL either.

If I had the time (and the space) I could go on (and on, and on) – but why bother? At some point in each of these studies it becomes tedious dealing with the ADDING, SUBTRACTING, and CHANGING OF God’s Holy words, so I’ll close for now, perhaps (some day) I may expand on this critique, and then again I may not. :eek:

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When I first read the Bible in 1958 the Holy Spirit convinced me that this truly was the word of God. Through the testimony of the Scriptures I “saw” the Lord Jesus Christ (through spiritual eyes only) and I BELIEVED on Him. God never coerced or forced me to BELIEVE – the Holy Spirit called me through the written word, and convinced me of the truth of the Gospel, and it was then – AFTER I BELIEVED, that I received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour (everlasting life) and became a son of God. God didn’t BELIEVE for me, and neither did he ever “force me to BELIEVE. I WILLINGLY BELIEVED from my heart. A doctrine that teaches that God “believes” for us, or “makes” (forces) us to BELIEVE (i.e. IRRESISTIBLE” GRACE), is contrary to the Holy Scriptures, and should be avoided at all costs.

The "Simplicity that is in Christ" is far less complicated than Calvinism would have you believe.

John
3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.:amen:

chette777 03-03-2009 02:47 AM

another Gem in your crown of Study George.

Blessings for your blessing

Gord 03-03-2009 07:00 PM

1 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
2 Sola fide ("by faith alone")
3 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
4 Solus Christus ("Christ alone")
5 Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

Never having studied anything on the reformation, I was under the impression that the 5 solas were all part of the split. Was this introduced by Calvin or another of the reformers? To me the solas have scriptural grounding.

I was wondering as Calvin took his T.U.L.I.P. 5 points that brother George has so graciously given us his edification on this, showing us the variances and lack of scriptural grounding, so I was googling to try and find the correlation if there is one.

If this is not the right spot for this question Brandon please feel free to move it to a new topic.

chette777 03-03-2009 08:14 PM

whats with all the Latin?

Latin is a key to where the solas come form. Interesting point though

stephanos 03-03-2009 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 16182)
whats with all the Latin?

Latin is a key to where the solas come form. Interesting point though

Yeah, pretty much. Most of the folks behind those Solas are ex-latin-using baby sprinkling pagans. Not that I disagree with the solas, but I am not a fan of those folks out there that use fancy sayings in other languages to sound spiritual or what have you.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

PB1789 03-04-2009 05:47 AM

5 Solas
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gord (Post 16180)
1 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
2 Sola fide ("by faith alone")
3 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
4 Solus Christus ("Christ alone")
5 Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

Never having studied anything on the reformation, I was under the impression that the 5 solas were all part of the split. Was this introduced by Calvin or another of the reformers? To me the solas have scriptural grounding.

I was wondering as Calvin took his T.U.L.I.P. 5 points that brother George has so graciously given us his edification on this, showing us the variances and lack of scriptural grounding, so I was googling to try and find the correlation if there is one.

If this is not the right spot for this question Brandon please feel free to move it to a new topic.


Gord --- Hello. Here are three links for you and anyone else who wants to look at some information pertaining to what you posted.

http:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Solas With several links in the margin.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/l...ry/Five_Solas/

http://www.fivesolas.com/ look in the Margin links.

No need for anyone to be afraid of Latin. It is and was the language of learning. Theology, and also many other fields such as Law, Medicine, Flora and Fauna ( oops another couple of Latin words - :) as in plants and animals.)

The Solas were written in Latin because the teachings and sermons of the Protestant Reformers were in various countries with their own native tongues. Czechs/Swiss/Germans/Bohemians/Austrians/English/Scots/Netherlanders/Flanders and Flemish (Belgium)/ French/Swedes/Danes/Norsk/Fins/Poles/Italians/Spanish and Portugese... But, because Latin was the Language used by all the colleges/Universities--- and all the Pastors had been trained and taught in Latin, thus it was the easiest way to get out the message to the various places in Europe of the Biblical Gospel of God's Grace, instead of the Vatican method of following what the Pope and Cardinals said.

Another thing. This Thread is called "Calvinism" and several folks are thinking that John Calvin wrote the "T U L I P" as they are trying to insult "a wilting flower"... Calvin wrote "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" in the 1500's. TULIP was penned as a REPLY to the attacks of the ARMINIANS (not armEnians---they live near present-day Turkey) in the 1600's in The Netherlands, where students of Jacob Hermann (Jacobus Arminius-his Latinized name) a professor -- taught the very things that most of the "Free-Will" folks on this website hold to... but don't even know that they are just doing what Arminius' students did centuries ago in Holland when they attacked the Biblical Doctrine of God's Sovereign Grace, and His All-Knowing/All-Seeing/Omni-Presence with the publication of the "Remonstrance".

Gord --- I strongly encourage you to look at the links above and then go to the public Library in your town/city and check-out Calvin"s Institutes of the Christian Religion". There is a paperback 1 vol. for sale and a 2vol. hardback if you wish to purchase. There are websites that have the Institutes on the Internet for free. Read what Jean Calvin wrote himself. Look at his commentaries on various Bible books. Read his sermons. Enjoy! Feast!

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.html

Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Amen! Ps. 90:1,2

George 03-04-2009 11:47 AM

Re: "CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"
 
Aloha all,

This is in reply to PB1789’s Post #72 - part of which follows:
Quote:

Another thing. This Thread is called "Calvinism" and several folks are thinking that John Calvin wrote the "T U L I P" as they are trying to insult "a wilting flower"... Calvin wrote "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" in the 1500's. TULIP was penned as a REPLY to the attacks of the ARMINIANS (not armEnians---they live near present-day Turkey) in the 1600's in The Netherlands, where students of Jacob Hermann (Jacobus Arminius-his Latinized name) a professor -- taught the very things that most of the "Free-Will" folks on this website hold to... but don't even know that they are just doing what Arminius' students did centuries ago in Holland when they attacked the Biblical Doctrine of God's Sovereign Grace, and His All-Knowing/All-Seeing/Omni-Presence with the publication of the "Remonstrance"."
First of all, I want to apologize to those members on the Forum who may have been offended by misspelling “Arminian” - Armenian some of the time. Although I didn’t misspell it wrong all of the time, I did misspell it 2 or 3 times – My deepest apologies! :rolleyes:

After a quick review of my Posts on Calvinism, I can find no place where I ever attributed the famous acronym “T.U.L.I.P.” to John Calvin. The acronym is a well known part of Calvinism though, since today’s “Calvinists” still use it (400 years later) in defense of their heretical doctrines.


The following statements (made by yours truly) are the EXACT reproductions of my introduction to each of my Posts. Please note that each time I said: “Calvinists state:” (NOT John Calvin said!)


My Second Post - Post #3:

Quote:

And now on to T.U.L.I.P. {the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

T = “Total Depravity” (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)

The very first thing to note is: The wordsDEPRAVE”, “DEPRAVED”, orDEPRAVITYcannot be found in the Holy Bible. This is always a “Red Flag” for me, since so much of False Doctrine (Psychiatry/Psychology for example) is associated with “wordsnot found in the Bible.

Calvinists state:
My Third Post - Post #9:
Quote:

T.U.L.I.P. {the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

U = Unconditional Election”

{The word “election” is Scriptural - The Phrase “Unconditional Election” cannot be found in the Bible! As a matter of fact – the words “conditional” and/or “unconditional” do not appear one time in Scripture!}

Calvinists state:
My Fourth Post - Post #45:
Quote:

We are now ready to examine the third main tenet of Calvinism in the light of God’s Holy word:

T.U.L.I.P. {the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

L =“Limited Atonement”(also known as Particular Atonement)

Calvinists state:
My Fifth Post - Post #67:
Quote:

T.U.L.I.P.{the famous acronym associated with Calvinistic beliefs}

I = “Irresistible Grace”

Calvinists state:
And now on to PB 1789’s Post:
Quote:

Another thing. This Thread is called "Calvinism" and several folks are thinking that John Calvin wrote the "T U L I P" as they are trying to insult "a wilting flower"... Calvin wrote "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" in the 1500's. TULIP was penned as a REPLY to the attacks of the ARMINIANS (not armEnians---they live near present-day Turkey) in the 1600's in The Netherlands, where students of Jacob Hermann (Jacobus Arminius-his Latinized name) a professor -- taught the very things that most of the "Free-Will" folks on this website hold to... but don't even know that they are just doing what Arminius' students did centuries ago in Holland when they attacked the Biblical Doctrine of God's Sovereign Grace, and His All-Knowing/All-Seeing/Omni-Presence with the publication of the "Remonstrance".
For the record - This thread is titled: “CALVINISM : Sound Doctrine?

For the record – I am not trying to “insult” anyone. I am trying to examine the doctrines of Calvinism in the light of the Holy Scriptures – if someone is insulted because of the comparison of Scripture with the doctrines of Calvinism, I cannot help it, and to tell the truth, I really don’t care whether their “feelings” are hurt, or not. Let the chips fall where they may!

For the record – Please note how a Calvinist (PB1789) goes about labeling (“the "Free-Will" folks on this website”) those of us who disagree with his “precious doctrine”, and placing us in the "ARMINIAN" Camp, just exactly as I said most Calvinists do, in my introductory remarks to this Thread!

My exact quote:
Quote:

“Firstly - I do not accept the premise that: There are two mains camps of theology within Christianity in America today: Arminianism and Calvinism.

There is a “THIRD CAMP” (that most Calvinists refuse to recognize), of which I am a member. I will not let anyone “classify” me (or what I believe) in ONLY ONE of two possible camps, simply because they do not believe that a “Third Camp” exists – or because they refuse to recognize it. And herein lays my first “problem” with Calvinism (or more properly – with some Calvinists): When there is a disagreement amongst Christians (over doctrine or issues of importance), the ability to “DEFINE” the issues cannot be controlled by only one of those parties!”

For the record – PB1789’s statement:
Quote:

No need for anyone to be afraid of Latin. It is and was the language of learning. Theology, and also many other fields such as Law, Medicine, Flora and Fauna ( oops another couple of Latin words - [IMG]file:///G:/DOCUME%7E1/GEORGE%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG] as in plants and animals.)
LATIN may be many things, but there is one thing it definitely is NOT – the language that God chose to Preserve His Holy word in! LATIN may be the language of “THEOLOGY”, but it’s NOT the language that God has chosen to teach the common man His Holy word!

LATIN “IS the language of learning”? Where has PB1789 been for the last 100 years? Scientists and “Theologians” may use some Latin words to make their discoveries, theories, and beliefs sound intellectual, brainy, highbrow, and “scholarly”, but other than that, I have news for PB1789 – LATIN IS A DEAD LANGUAGE; and has been for centuries (except for a handful of smug, arrogant scholars & scribes {mostly Roman Catholic} who think that they are better and smarter than all of us “dumb” folks.)

For the record – PB1789 stated:
Quote:

Latin was the Language used by all the colleges/Universities--- and all the Pastors had been trained and taught in Latin, thus it was the easiest way to get out the message to the various places in Europe of the Biblical Gospel of God's Grace, instead of the Vatican method of following what the Pope and Cardinals said.”
The “training” and teaching and use of Latin didn’t prevent ALL of those Colleges and Universities and ALL of their students (pastors) from eventually apostatizing and becoming reprobate – did it? I wonder if the problem could have been that they were getting “out the MESSAGE (Calvinism?)”, INSTEAD OF PREACHING AND TEACHING THE HOLY WORDS OF GOD – is it possible?

For the record – PB1789 stated:
Quote:

Calvin wrote "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" in the 1500's. TULIP was penned as a REPLY to the attacks of the . . . . in the 1600's in The Netherlands, where students of Jacob Hermann (Jacobus Arminius-his Latinized name) a professor -- taught the very things that most of the "Free-Will" folks on this website hold to... but don't even know that they are just doing what Arminius' students did centuries ago in Holland when they attacked the Biblical Doctrine of God's Sovereign Grace, and His All-Knowing/All-Seeing/Omni-Presence with the publication of the "Remonstrance".
So we, (us “Free-Will Folks”) are teaching the “very (same) things” that Jacob Herman (“Arminius”) and his students taught way back in Calvin’s day and we - “don't even know that they are just doing what Arminius' students did centuries”. We don’t even know what we are doing? Am I copying what those students said many years ago? I trow not! Then I must be “psychic” or just plain ignorant, since John Calvin and his writings are to be “revered” as the end all, to all “theological” discussion and debate!

And all this time I thought that the King James Bible is our FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice (NOT John Calvin). Do I detect just a tad bit of “arrogance” on the part of our Calvinist brother, PB1789?

For the record – PB1789 stated:
Quote:

Gord --- I strongly encourage you to look at the links above and then go to the public Library in your town/city and check-out Calvin"s Institutes of the Christian Religion". There is a paperback 1 vol. for sale and a 2vol. hardback if you wish to purchase. There are websites that have the Institutes on the Internet for free. Read what Jean Calvin wrote himself. Look at his commentaries on various Bible books. Read his sermons. Enjoy! Feast!
If I ever honor or revere some man, or his writings, as our brother PB1789 has just done in the preceding quote, I want some of the men on this Forum to come to Broken Arrow and kick my "you know what"! FEAST!??? – On a mere man’s WRITINGS? When the Holy Scriptures say:

Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

FEAST? On the writings of a mere man who lived 500 years ago, and who was clearly “OFF” in his doctrine? Give me a break! If any one wants to “FEAST”, rather than dine on the dried up husks and chewed up “bones” offered by Calvin and his followers, I recommend that Christians everywhere “FEAST” on the Holy words of God, and leave the "scraps" and “leavings” to the scholars and the scribes!

SWEETPSALMS 119:103How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

HONEY PSALMS 119:103How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
WATER EPHESIANS 5:25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

MILK 1 PETER 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

MEAT - HEBREWS 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

FEAST”? On John Calvin’s writings – when you can “FEAST” on God’s Holy word? Thanks, but NO THANKS!

For the record – Please take note: PB1789 doesn't bother to refute the points I have made (from the Scriptures) exposing the errors in Calvinism; he just ridicules and labels some of us, and the then extols the "virtues" of John Calvin and his doctrine (i.e. Calvinism).

If PB1789 cannot, on his own, refute the points that I have made (using Scripture) exposing the errors of Calvinism, he should be ashamed of himself. If PB1789 believes so strongly in Calvinistic doctrine, he should at least, be able to defend his beliefs (with Scripture) - without resorting to the writings of John Calvin or other Calvinists.

I haven’t resorted to any man, or any man’s writings in exposing the errors of Calvinism, PB1789 should be able, on his own, to take the Holy Scriptures and demolish my reasoning, point by point. If I am wrong in my beliefs, at least I won’t be wrong because I am following a mere man. If I am wrong in my beliefs, it will be because I failed to “rightly divide the word of truth”, NOT because I followed some man’s writings!

I am interested in the Truth; the whole Truth; and NOTHING but the Truth. I have proven, with Scripture, that John Calvin and the doctrine of Calvinism doesn’t measure up to the Truth. Why should anyone rely on him or his writings, if a nobody, like me, can demonstrate (over and over again) the errors, failings, and shortcomings of his “doctrine”?

WHY would I settle for second (or third, or fourth, or fifth best) when I have God’s perfect word that I can rely on ALL OF THE TIME?

PSALMS 119:105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

PS.ALMS 119:160Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

ISAIAH 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

John Calvin and CALVINISM don’t even come close! :eek:

PB1789 03-04-2009 12:31 PM

Point - Click - Read!
 
George my post above was to Gord. It is obvious that you have your mind made up already. You are invited to click on any one of those free sites to access information though.

I did not mention you by name for a reason. The Thread that you started and your "Amen" corner on this website tend to drown out anyone that doesn't follow the writings of the guy from Pensacola. Someone else (one of your fans) wrote the line about TULIP being a wilting flower. I know you read all the "attaboys" that they post. With each one of their approval smiley faces, you are recharged and go on for another anti-Calvinism post.

It was someone else that spelled armEnian rather than Arminians... typical of the anti-Reformation crowd. Many folks buy whole-hog the Arminian "Remonstrance" yet don't even know that it was written before the TULIP.

BTW- Please do read the Word of God. But, this time while reading John's Gospel please do not skip over John 6, John 10 or John 17. Calvinism starts at Gen. 1:1 and goes all the way through the Bible... without using a meat cleaver to cut the parts that don't fit into the worldview of the Free-Will folks.

Gord: --- If you are reading this please: Click on the links I posted. I was simply trying to give you an answer to your post without taking up a whole page of bandwidth. "Great is the Lord - and greatly to be praised!

{oops- the wikipedia link should have had another / in the address :( }

George 03-04-2009 02:25 PM

Re: "CALVINISM: Sound Doctrine?"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PB1789 (Post 16219)
"George my post above was to Gord. It is obvious that you have your mind made up already. You are invited to click on any one of those free sites to access information though.

I did not mention you by name for a reason. The Thread that you started and your "Amen" corner on this website tend to drown out anyone that doesn't follow the writings of the guy from Pensacola. Someone else (one of your fans) wrote the line about TULIP being a wilting flower. I know you read all the "attaboys" that they post. With each one of their approval smiley faces, you are recharged and go on for another anti-Calvinism post.

It was someone else that spelled armEnian rather than Arminians... typical of the anti-Reformation crowd. Many folks buy whole-hog the Arminian "Remonstrance" yet don't even know that it was written before the TULIP.

BTW- Please do read the Word of God. But, this time while reading John's Gospel please do not skip over John 6, John 10 or John 17. Calvinism starts at Gen. 1:1 and goes all the way through the Bible... without using a meat cleaver to cut the parts that don't fit into the worldview of the Free-Will folks.

Gord: --- If you are reading this please: Click on the links I posted. I was simply trying to give you an answer to your post without taking up a whole page of bandwidth. "Great is the Lord - and greatly to be praised!

{oops- the wikipedia link should have had another / in the address :(
}"

To PB1789,

My address was to ALL (on the Forum - including you) and, the last time I checked, I'm still free to express my comments here (whether you like it, or not).

Quote:

"George my post above was to Gord."
The reason I bothered to reply to your Post, is because of your off-hand remarks that cast aspersions on not only me, but others on this Forum. I would have left well enough alone, had you refrained from making your disparaging comments.

Please note:

Your snide remarks, insinuating comments, and innuendo are fairly typical of the "feminized" American Christian man. Instead of standing up (like a real man), and calling a spade, a spade - through innuendo, implication, insinuation, and imputation you "hint" at many people, and cast aspersions, without ever coming out (like a real man) and just say what you mean. Too bad, but that's you're problem - it certainly is not mine! :)

It seems to me that we both have our minds "made up" - the only difference being that, while I have backed up my beliefs by specifically quoting dozens of verses from the Holy Bible and making application, you have referred to men; and instead of "quoting" verses and applying them, all you have done is cite verse references without any application, i.e.:

Quote:

"BTW- Please do read the Word of God. But, this time while reading John's Gospel please do not skip over John 6, John 10 or John 17. Calvinism starts at Gen. 1:1 and goes all the way through the Bible... without using a meat cleaver to cut the parts that don't fit into the worldview of the Free-Will folks."
Citing verses in support of a doctrine (Calvinism), without making any application, doesn't PROVE anything, except the fact that you, yourself, may be unable to defend your beliefs, and so you depend on other men to do your thinking for you.

I reviewed several of our encounters since you joined the Forum last May, and was reminded that we have "clashed" in the past (Over the King James Bible issue and Calvinism), and that each time you fail to back up what you believe, so it is no surprise to me now that you "skinny out" again with the lame excuse that: "your "Amen" corner on this website tend to drown out anyone that doesn't follow the writings of the guy from Pensacola."; "I know you read all the "attaboys" that they post. With each one of their approval smiley faces, you are recharged and go on for another anti-Calvinism post."

I don't know - HOW you know, how I feel when I read other people's Posts, but maybe you are clairvoyant. If I didn't know better though, I would suspect that there might be just a tinge of jealousy there, but that couldn't be possible - could it? :confused:

Your quote:
Quote:

"It was someone else that spelled armEnian rather than Arminians... typical of the anti-Reformation crowd. Many folks buy whole-hog the Arminian "Remonstrance" yet don't even know that it was written before the TULIP."
I've got "news" for you. My "Remonstrance" is NOT Arminian, and it was NOT written BEFORE T.U.L.I.P.! I just wrote it this year - without referring once to other men (especially that guy in Pensacola!). My "Remonstrance" comes from comparing Scripture with Scripture and then comparing those Scriptures with Calvinistic doctrine.

Your weak attempt to "classify" and "label" all of us who disagree with you and your beliefs as the "the Free-Will folks", is the "last refuge" of a man who is unable to defend what he believes, and ends up calling people names! SAD! :(

The Title of this Thread is "Calvinism: Sound Doctrine?". I have asked the question - Is Calvinism sound doctrine? I have compared what Calvinists have said in defense of their doctrine, and have demonstrated (from the Scriptures) that much of Calvinistic doctrine is contrary to the Holy Scriptures. It is up to the people on this Forum to examine (for themselves) whether what I have presented is true or not. Ultimately it is up to each of us to: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [2 Timothy 2:15]

The commandment is to Study the Scriptures; Read the Scriptures; Search the Scriptures; NOT Study, Read, and Search the Writings of mere MEN! I urge everyone on this Forum to obey God's commandment and do their own reading, studying, and searching, and not rely on Men {and that includes me!}.

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Luke 03-04-2009 02:38 PM

Why is it PB1789, that whenever you have to defend the "doctrines of grace", you point to Calvin's institutes, the westminster confession or some other confession, and rarely to the Bible.

John 6 is in the Bible. John 17 is in the Bible and so is John 10. Yet Calvinism is not taught in any of them. God's drawing is taught, but God's drawing is not regeneration, and there is nothing to suggest a man cannot resist the drawing of God in John 6:44. In John 17, Jesus Christ also prays for those who will believe on him after hearing his word through the apostles.

Now, PB1789, since you are so bent on correcting minor spelling mistakes, will you stop referring to the written word as deity? The Bible is the word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. The Bible even makes this differentiation.

Furthermore, just because Calvin didn't "invent" the five points doesn't mean he didn't believe them. Also, calvin wrote this in his institutes:

We must realize that at whatever time we are baptized, we are once for all washed and purged for our whole life. (4.15.3)

Forrest 03-04-2009 02:46 PM

Hello Brother George. I agree with the sound Biblical teaching in your posts. So, I guess we are of the "same mind" and that puts me in the :amen: corner! I hope you are planning to put this entire teaching on your website so I can direct others to it.

Gord 03-04-2009 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PB1789 (Post 16199)
Gord --- Hello. Here are three links for you and anyone else who wants to look at some information pertaining to what you posted....

Thank you I have those book marked, but I am looking for (if any) the direct relation of the solas to Calvin. I will keep searching and reading.

Gord 03-04-2009 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 16188)
Yeah, pretty much. Most of the folks behind those Solas are ex-latin-using baby sprinkling pagans. Not that I disagree with the solas, but I am not a fan of those folks out there that use fancy sayings in other languages to sound spiritual or what have you.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

To understand the freedom you have to day, I at least am curious as to how those ex-latin-using baby sprinkling pagans" (the folks who had the courage to defy the roman catholic church) as you call them, came to begin to understand then, under the "rule of the roman church" the glen of light and truth that today afford us the freedom in Christ we can now understand and enjoy. I prefer to be curious to understand, rather then pigeon holing a group of people at the faults of others.

Gord 03-04-2009 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George (Post 16217)
...

WHY would I settle for second (or third, or fourth, or fifth best) when I have God’s perfect word that I can rely on ALL OF THE TIME?

..

:amen: and hence my question on the solas to try and understand the courage of the reformers to get us to this point. My original question as to it there was any link of Calvin to the solas still tweaks my curiosity.


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