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Does God hate sinners
Most churches today teach that God is love , but what about Psalm 5:4-5
1:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. 1:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY. The question is does God hate sinners? I believe the key word is workers in Psalm 5:5. God hates iniquity, but it goes further to say the workers of it. Dont' misunderstand what I am saying, yes God is love " For God so loved the world" But I stll believe he hates also. What is your guys take? |
There are passages in Scripture similar to this:
1 Samuel 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night. 1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. God "repents", but God is not a man that he should "repent". In answer to the question, I believe what the Bible says is so. God hates the workers of iniquity that he would damn them to Hell God loves the world that he gave his Son and save those who would believe. |
Repentance means "a change of mind" - and the Biblical usage shows a change of mind resulting in a change of conduct.
Here is a verse dealing with God and repentance: The Lord Would Not Repent It is a neat study, dealing with statements about things God will not change His mind about, regardless of the conduct of mankind. There are other things that do change because man changes - Jeremiah 18 deals with that. When God prophecies destruction, and a city or an individual repents, He changes His conduct towards them (because their conduct has changed). When He prophecies blessings, but they turn to wickedness, then He repents and takes away their blessing (because they changed their conduct towards Him). |
No! God loves sinners
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."John 3:16
PLOUGHBOY |
Context is important. The Bible teaches God loves this world - which is filled with sinners - but He hates the workers of iniquity. My understanding of this is that He hates those who refuse to repent of their sins and reject the Saviour. We all work iniquity - but He hates those who utterly reject Him and persist in their evil course.
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Ploughboy,
Your right God does love the world, but is the whole world going to heaven? No. There has to be a payment for sin and God hates sin, but I do believe that he also hates those that do the work of iniquity. Like Jerry said there are those that continue to reject what Jesus Christ did for them, so I believe God hates them but His grace and mercy isn't far from them. It amazes me how simple it is for one to choose heaven or hell. And hell is ones choice when they reject the One who died for them. |
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"Whoso is wise, and will observe these things, even they shall understand the lovingkindness of the LORD."Psalms 107:43 Ploughboy |
The Bible does not contradict - it says both. What you need to do is reconcile those statements. It is not one or the other - but both together. In what sense does He love the world, and in what sense does He hate the workers of iniquity? I believe that an unrepentant worker of iniquity is so identified with their sin, that God hates them as He would hate that sin.
Another thing too - God does not love the lost the same way or extent He loves the saved. Only the saved are referred to as His beloved - which implies a closer relationship and fellowship. |
Jerry what about that saying I hear so often in the South? "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner"?
From what you are stating above then, He hates the sinner just as much as the sin? I have often wondered about that statement. |
I believe He hates the unrepentant sinner - not just all sinners (we are all sinners). He knows who will die in a state of rejection of Him and His salvation, and are just determined to pursue their course of sin, as well as lead others into sin and rebellion against God - those are the ones I believe He hates. He has done everything He could to provide them salvation and cleansing from their evil way.
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Ploughboy |
Perhaps you could do a Bible search for all the verses related to this theme, and see what conclusion you can reach.
Proverbs 6:16-19 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. It doesn't just say He hates the sin, but the sinner. Luke 13:24-28 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This is referring to those STILL lost when Jesus judges them. Proverbs 10:29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity. Proverbs 21:15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity. Isaiah 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands. Not covered with the righteousness of Christ, but by their own sin. Micah 2:1 Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand. Love in the Bible is defined as obeying God's commandments and actively doing good towards someone else. Eg. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 and: 1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. Perhaps God's hatred is an active withholding of blessing of the wicked. In Hell they certainly will not see any good. It is not that God will do evil to them - but He will withhold good to them. Whereas when we hate someone, it means we are sinning against them - treating them contrary to God's commands - ie. like lying to them when we are supposed to be telling them the truth - see: Proverbs 26:28 A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin. |
The Cross
The Cross proves that God loves all sinners.
Ploughboy |
Again, it is not one of these versus the other. The Bible teaches both. How do you reconcile that? You can't do it by overlooking one.
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God Loves All Sinners
I do not have to reconcile both. Jesus has at the cross. I think it is called MERCY!!! At the Cross God loves ALL sinners. Calvin could not figure it out either.:)
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."Romans 5:8 Ploughboy |
The cross was planned BEFORE God created this world, yet God still declared that He hates workers of iniquity - so it is not either/or.
Actually, what you are doing is overlooking Scripture to fit your theory - and that is not how we are to study the Bible. We are to compare spiritual things with spiritual, precept upon precept, line upon line. We are to rightly divide the Word of God - and if our conclusions omit or contradict other passages, then we have wrongly divided it, not rightly divided it. |
I agree with Jerry. Ploughboy you have to understand that this is not one way or the other. They both go hand in hand. Romans 1 clearly talks about how God rejected those that literally did not like to retain God in their thoughts. He gave them over to a reprobate mind. Why? Because they rejected Him first.
Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Psa 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man. As you notice, there have been plenty of verses that some of us have been able to show you that state how God not only hates the iniquity but the worker of it. As Jerry said earlier God hates those who know what is right but choose to do otherwise. In other words someone who scorns the Truth and disregards it, living his life the way he wants to. Here is a good example. Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. |
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Sinners hate God
No, it (hell) proves Sinners hate God.
Ploughboy |
Malachi 2:16 says,
“For the LORD God of Israel says that He hates divorce,” and yet He was divorced. Jer. 3:6 & 8, “The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king,……I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.” And in Malachi 1:2-3, “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.” The answer to your question is unequivocally yes! The evidence is over whelming. How then can you justify the fact that the Lord tells us to love our enemies and do good to all who persecute us! How can He instruct us to do something He is not willing to do? He tells us to do something He is not willing to do. Jesus said in Mt. 5:43-48, “You have heard that it has been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” If he destroys untold millions in hell’s fire, as we have been taught, that makes him worse than Hitler ever thought of being. How can He tell us that He is perfect and we are to be like Him when He hates His enemies and we are supposed to love our enemies???? He is telling us to do something He is not willing to do!!! This is the thinking of the carnal mind, which does not know Our Father and cannot understand the things of our God. Paul said in Rom. 8:6-8, “For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” Again Paul said in 1 Cor. 2:9-14, “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” The natural man, or the carnal mind cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know, understand them, because they have to be spiritually discerned. To understand how God can hate a man for what he is doing and still have mercy on him is something we have difficulty understanding. If we think that we can use our own intelligence without the assistance of the Holy Spirit illuminating our understand, we are sadly mistaken. Jesus said in John 16:13, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.” How can God hate someone and tell us not to? Can you hate someone and show love to them at the same time? Well, that is exactly what God has done. Lem. 3:22-23, “It because of the LORD’S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.” Psalm 78, 35-39 says, “And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues. For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant. But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yes, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.” John said in 1 John 4:7-8, “Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.” Notice that John said that God is love. Love is not an attribute of God. Love is the very essence of God. That is one word that describes Him. The word translated here as love is the Greek word, “Agape”. This is the kind of love that is a result of a decision to love a person no matter what the circumstances are or what he might do. God chose to love us before creation and there is nothing we can do that will change His mind. He may become disgusted with us or even come to hate us because of what we are doing but His predetermined love and compassion will result in Him having mercy toward us. Paul also said in Rom. 8:38-39, “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Jesus said in John 3:16-17, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” His love for mankind far outweighed His anger and hatred for what we have done. Paul said in Rom. 5:8, (KJV) “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” (NIV) “But God gives proof of His love to us in Christ’s dying for us while we were still sinners.” Look, Jesus is the perfect example of the nature of God. On the cross when they were crucifying Him, He has compassion on them and ask His Father to forgive them because they did not know what they were actually doing. That’s the heart of God and this is what the Father is telling us that we are to do regarding our enemies. Heb. 10:16-17, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.” And finally, Peter said in 2 Peter 3:9, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” |
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The cross was planned BEFORE God created this world, yet God still declared that He hates workers of iniquity - so it is not either/or. Actually, what you are doing is overlooking Scripture to fit your theory - and that is not how we are to study the Bible. We are to compare spiritual things with spiritual, precept upon precept, line upon line. We are to rightly divide the Word of God - and if our conclusions omit or contradict other passages, then we have wrongly divided it, not rightly divided it. amen if we look up the word world in the dictionary , the primary meaning is the universe , the whole system of creation. it cannot be that for it would contradict scripture . a secondary definition fits with scripture it is : a great multitude or quantity , as in the world of business, . If i said i was going on a world tour would that mean i was going to visit every single country on the planet or some select countrys not all inclusive ? lets take a look at how scripture defines the word world. LK.2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. is this the whole world without exception or is is the world that ceaser augustus ruled ? lk.16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. hear we have a comparison of children of this world , one group and children of light another group. JN.12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world , but to save the world . now did Jesus come to save the whole world or the world of his elect ? JN14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. here is the Spirit of Truth ,whom the world cannot recieve , the word world here has to mean the nonelect. JN.15:19 If ye were of the world , the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world , but I have chosen you out of the world , therefore the world hateth you. if ye were of this world has to be God's elect because he has chosen us out of the world therefore the nonelect hate you . JN. 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world : thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. men which thou gavest me out of the world , the world he gave them out of has to be the non-elect. JN. 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world , but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. here we have Jesus Praying not for the world but for his elect ,two different groups. there are many more examples but i don't want to make this post to long . other words people trip up on are all ,save or saved , and a few others, you see how the word world isn't always to be taken by the primary meaning to do so will cause contradiction in God's Word. jim |
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If that is the case then why did He say "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Or do you believe the "any" is the elect? If that's the case look at Romans: Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. God predestinated us according to foreknowledge. Not because He picked and chose. It was because God is omniscient and knows those who will reject Him and those who will accept Him. So do you believe that God only died for the elect? |
so do you believe God chose who was to be lost and who was to be saved?
yes, Rom. 9:11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. before these children were born not having done any good or evil God chose one and not the other. Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world , that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, we were chosen before the foundation of the world, we don't choose God he chose us. Or do you believe the "any" is the elect? yes i think your reading to much into the foreknow , he created us therefore he knew us , as in the above verse in romans before the children were born one God loved and one God hated. so do you believe there is nothing you have to do , Jesus did it all , all you have to do is believe? jim |
Yes all you have to do is believe.
Romans 6:23 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. If you had to work for it, then what about the thief on the cross that accepted Christ? Christ told him that "today thou shalt be with Me in paradise." There was no work involved. He simply had to have faith and believe in Christ. Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. I also do believe in predestination. According to foreknowledge. That's what the Bible says. If God just picked and chose who He wanted then He would be unjust and unfair. THAT IS NOT MY GOD! So would I have to tell somebody, "you were just one of the ones God chose to go to hell." If God picked then there is no need for missionaries, evangelists, preachers, going on visitation, and passing out tracts, because "one way or another they'll get to heaven because God chose them." Here's what God said about this: Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. The Bible says that when the lost are judged in the end that "they shall be without excuse." Let's face it they would have an excuse and it would probably go like this, "how come You didn't give the gift of grace to me but you gave it to him, he's no better than me, were both sinners aren't we?" Do you see the point I'm trying to make? Your viewpoint presents my God as being unfair. My Bible says: Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: In other words He is fair to all. He doesn't love a Jew more than a Gentile, or a Frenchman more than an American. Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. This verse above backs up what I was saying earlier, about how they shall be without excuse. God gives some flicker of Light (Jesus) to everyone so that everyone will have a chance to accept Him as Saviour. If He picked the people then why did He give the Light to every man? |
what i am saying is the phrase there is nothing you have to do all you have to do is believe is contradicting it's self .
if we are dead in tresspasses and sin , how can we do anything ? i don't believe that our belief causes us to get salvation , its a fruit , of God taking the heart of stone out and giving you a heart of flesh . i don't believe we obtain eternal salvation by works , and faith is something you do . i believe God chooses us then puts a new heart in us so we are able to believe. Jn.5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. pay very close attention to the grammer , is it past , present or future tense. he that heareth and believeth , [hath] [ past tense ] eternal life you don't hear and believe to get it , [ but is passed ] he's already passed from death to life. if you are hearing and believing you already have eternal life. Rom.5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. if we say it takes the sinners obedience and the Obedience of Jesus then it would be by the obedience of two. Jn.15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit , and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. we don't choose God he chooses us. [ natural man there is none that doeth good ] , chosing God would be doing something good . Gal.5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, faith or belief is a fruit of the Spirit , God chooses us then puts his Spirit in us so that we can believe. we are not giving all the glory to God where it belongs when we say man can save himself by his belief . i hope that answers your questions. jim |
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And why do you treat faith as "doing something good?" Faith is not a work. Romans ch. 4 makes that very clear. You also seem to be confounding righteousness imputed with works. Romans 4 makes it clear that righteousness imputed is not due to works nor is that righteousness from man. You have created a contradiction that does not exist. |
And why do you treat faith as "doing something good?" Faith is not a work. Romans ch. 4 makes that very clear.
faith is a work and so is love they are something you do. 1 thess.1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Gal.5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 2 Thess.1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: you see how the Word of God defines faith for us , by dictionary definition a work is something you do. man wants desperatly to have a part in his salvation but Jesus did it all .by the righteousness of one . |
God absolutely hates sinners. Whether it be "the workers of iniquity," or "he that soweth discord among the brethren," "God is angry with the wicked every day." "He that believeth not is condemned ALREADY" and "the wrath of God abideth (present tense) on him." (John 3:18,36)
God's love however, shows up in two ways in the Bible. The first, and most prevelant, is at Calvary. Read carefully Gal.2:20, Rom.5:8, I John 3:16,4:9-10, Eph. 5:1, etc. Each time God's love is mentioned it is connected with giving His Son. Apart from Calvary, no sinner can know God's love, but only His wrath. Secondly, God's love is displayed to believers, or His children. See I John 3:1 and others. To the "son" "God is love," but to the sinner "our God is a consuming fire." Read carefully Heb. 12:6-8 and notice the son is loved, but not the "bastard." |
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But you were associating faith with righteousness. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Quote:
There is more than one kind of faith in Scripture. Romans 4 plainly teaches that the faith of mere belief is not work. "To him that worketh not, but believeth on him." Calvinism wants to turn belief into a work, but the Bible plainly says it is not. |
God loves sinners
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This verse in context is teaching after salvation. When we are saved we become holy and without blame before him in love. It is not a choosing to salvation. It is what we get because of Salvation.This was God's great plan before the foundations of the world. That whosoever believes would become. Salvation is simple "LOOK AND LIVE" OBEDIENCE. Christ says Come, Calvin says you can't. Ploughboy |
James said in Ja. :17-18,
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.” Faith and belief are two different things. For example, if I were to tell you that if you will go down to my bank and give them your name and social security no. they will give you a million dollars. You can believe that what I said is true but if you don’t go down to the bank and give them my name and ss your believing will not get you the million dollars. Faith is an action word. Jesus told his disciples in John 11:24, “What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” When do I believe that I have the things that I pray for? When I pray! If I have the word of God that I can have something then I should know that when I ask Him for them I have them. This is faith in action because my faith is in His word and when I receive the things I pray for I no longer need faith for them because I have them. Therefore, if I keep asking God for the same thing over and over guess what? I am not asking in faith because if I believe His word I know I have the things that I ask Him for. (1 John 5:14-15) Paul said in Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.” We have been saved by the grace of God by the second Adam, Jesus, and our faith in what God accomplish through Jesus on the cross. The faith that we use to believe this was even given to us by God. God designed it this way so no man can boast that he was saved because of something that man did. Jesus said in John 6:65, (KJV) “Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.” (NIV) “That’s why I told you that no one can come to me unless it be granted him by the Father.” Religion tells us to go out and save some souls. Or how many souls have you saved this year? None!! You don’t have the power to save a soul. You can the word of God to that person but if the Holy Spirit doesn’t draw that person to God he won’t obey the gospel. |
How God Draws ALL men
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A sinner hears the Word of God and he must make a choice to obey the Word of God. It is not that hard Here is a classic misused verse by Calvinist, who by the way never use simple hermeneutics, the law of context. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. They never use the next verse. How does God draw them? John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. The Word of God draws men. It is the Word of God that men reject. This is why you better make sure you use the Word of God, and not some Modern perversion. A modern perversion "does not" draw men. That is why there is no conviction in today's modern version Churches. Ploughboy |
Paul said in Eph. 2:8-9,
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.” we are saved through faith , and that , that what ? that faith is not of yourselves , it is a gift of God . not of works - if it was our faith it would be by works . jim |
The salvation is the gift of God - received by faith.
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are we not justified by the faith of Christ? Gal.2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
we believe in Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ --does not say in order to get justified, its mearly stating a fact if you believe you are justified , the new versions -- every one from the new kj to the jws bible all say you are justified by your faith in Christ , they totally leave out what Jesus did for us on calvary and make you trust in yourself instead of Christ . im not very good at explaining this . if we are dead in tresspasses and sin , wouldn't the new birth have to take place before the belief ? what im saying is how can you do anything if your dead? i believe the faith that is the gift of God in eph. 2:8-9 is the faith of Christ. all the new perversions change this to our faith in Christ.here is another verse that the new versions change to our faith in Christ. Rom. 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: jim |
Have you read The Other Side of Calvinism? I ask because I used to be a hard-line Calvinist (believed Unconditional Election, Irresistable Grace, etc) and so I understand the power of that "system" of theology. It took me a long time to start questioning it, but finally I got tired of blowing off verses like these:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.I finally got tired of treating this verse (and others like it spoken by our Lord) as disingenuous -- if Christ knows we can't freely come of our will then why does he make the offer? Anyway, I decided to read the book The Other Side of Calvinism and finally I realized the system of Calvinism is made by man, not from the Bible. Vance's discourse on Ephesians ch. 1 essentially answered it all for me, and the entire book helped me have a better understanding of God's grace and salvation. It's my experience that no amount of debating will change minds on this topic. For me, it was a matter of study, which is why I wonder if you've read the book, and suggest you check it out if you haven't. Many of God's best servants were/are Calvinists (Spurgeon comes to mind), but I think they are so in spite of their systematic theology, and should endeavour for a greater knowledge of God's grace. |
diligent , i grew up in a calvinist church and i could see errs like infant baptism that wern't scriptural , i overheard my dad and my grandpa talking about baptism ,grandpa was a baptist . so i went looking for a different church, what i was looking for was a loving church since God is love i figured that his church would be manifested by love , well i ended up in a charismatic church they baptized by imersion , then things started happening they told me the way to study was get as many versions as i could and compare them , and i got so confused and such a headache , they trusted their emotions , well i seen an ad in the paper on how to study the bible so i went and he showed how the kjv was the word of God and how God preserved it perfect and we could trust it so i spent 6 months praying about it and asking God to show me if this was true , one day i oped up a greek interlinear and read the forward which i never read and there it was exactly as pastor mott had said wescott & hort were behind it , etc. then i went to some bible encyclopedias i had bought while in the charismatic church , and they said the same thing and said that the jws bible was from the same texts as the modern versions so i approached the pastor at the charismatic church about the differances between the versions and he said it doesn't matter as long as you love the Lord. right there i knew i was done going there , so i ended up joining the church pastor mott started here , then everything fell apart my wife left me and said i would never see my son again , well about 3 weeks later she came back and her parents won't have nothing to do with her , i shared with my best friend that the kjv is the Word of God and showed him the difference between them and he no longer speaks to me . ill have to check that book out . detroitchurch.net is the pastor that started our church.
jim |
Diligent,
Most theology books I've read were Calvinist, and I was willing to accept it with a child-like faith if Calvinism was Biblical. I'm glad somebody gave my father that book, The Other Side of Calvinism. So far, that was the most exhaustive work on the issue I've ever read. Second to Vance's discussion on Ephesians, his explanations of Biblical usages of words, such as "ordained" (Acts 14:38; Mr 3:14 w/ Jn. 6:70 & Jn 17:12), etc. cleared things up to me. |
Looks like previous thread:
http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1159 In Christ, John M. Whalen _______ Nevermind! |
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