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tonybones2112 06-08-2009 07:56 AM

Yes, I'm a grace believer also and, if that is known as a "Pauline Dispensationalist", then that is what I am. I just don't know the proper terminology.

Sister, one of two Grace websites I recommend defines Berean "dispensationalists", Pauline "dispensationalists", Progressive "dispensationalists", Early-Acts "dispensationalists", Mid-Acts "dispensationalists", Late-Acts "dispensationalists", Covenant "dispensationalists", the terminology is confusing so for the momet I'll stick with you and call myself a "Pauline" dispensationlist and a Christian.

So these dispensations were not related to TIME PERIODS or ERAS, but to specific persons that God chose to carry out His will or to reveal certain things to.

They are both. For purposes of Bible study CI Scofield divided the Scriptures into 7 "ages" or "dispensations"(administrations). These seven dispensations as taught by Scofield are:

1. Man innocent.
2. Man under conscience.
3. Man in authority over the earth.
4. Man under promise.
5. Man under law.
6. Man under grace.
7. Man under the personal reign of Christ.

Scofield states(underlining is mine):

The Scriptures divide time (by which is meant the entire period from the creation of Adam to the "new heaven and a new earth" of Rev. 21: 1) into seven unequal periods, usually called dispensations (Eph. 3:2), although these periods are also called ages (Eph. 2:7) and days, as in "day of the Lord."

There is only one problem with this statement and the seven divisions: The Scriptures don't divide time into seven "ages", they divide them into only three:

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The problem with Scofield's "seven" dispensations is that there are no "dispensers"(administrators)under the first four of Scofield's "dispensations".

If Israel had accepted Christ as their Messiah, their High Priest then there would have been only two dispensations and the Apostle John gives them in this verse:

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

If Israel had accepted Christ in Acts 7 rather than murdered Stephen in rejecting Christ, there would have been only two "dispensations"

1. Man under law: Dispenser:Moses. The redemption of Mankind through Israel.
2. Man under the personal reign of Christ: Dispenser: Jesus Christ. The Tribulation of Joel chapter 2, rise of Israel. The redemption of Mankind with Christ reigning in Jerusalem, watching every move you make.Final battle at the end of the Millennium, then Eternity.

Now, we know Israel rejected Christ in Acts 7, and Paul was called to receive the revelation of the mystery of the Body of Christ, the "dispensation" of the Grace of God where Mankind's redemption was through Paul's gospel, apart from Israel and apart from the works of the Law where something unheard of and impossible had now taken place: Jews and Gentiles were together, in ONE Body, and equal. This revelation was kept hid in God and revealed to no one until it was revealed to Paul

Now, is that "Tony The Heretical Bullingerite's" "false" teaching?

No, it's Romans 11, Eph. 2, and Eph 3.

Scofield taught seven dispensations, Paul taught only three. Between a man, a Gentile saved by grace(Scofield), and the Apostle To The Gentiles(Paul), who was a Jew and one of the oracles of God, I'll take the Apostle to the Gentiles(Paul) and see the truth of:

1. Time Past- Man under law. Dispenser: Moses. The redemption of Mankind through Israel.
2. But Now- Man under grace. Dispenser:Paul.called to receive the revelation of the mystery of the Body of Christ, the "dispensation" of the Grace of God where Mankind's redemption was through Paul's gospel, apart from Israel and apart from the works of the Law where something unheard of and impossible had now taken place: Jews and Gentiles were together, in ONE Body, and equal. This revelation was kept hid in God and revealed to no one until it was revealed to Paul
3. Ages To Come- Man under the personal reign of Christ: Dispenser: Jesus Christ. The Tribulation of Joel chapter 2, rise of Israel. The redemption of Mankind with Christ reigning in Jerusalem, watching every move you make.Final battle at the end of the Millennium, then Eternity.

Jassy, many Christians today feel and teach that you are:

A bad Christian if you weren't baptized in water
A bad Christian if you don't speak in tongues
A bad Christian if you don't take the "Lord's Supper"
A bad Christian if you don't "tithe"
A bad Christian if you don't handle snakes
A bad Christian if you don't "confess your sins to God" periodically
A bad Christian if you don't follow the "great commission"
A bad Christian if you didn't become bulletproof and disease proof at salvation

The reason they teach and feel these things is becasue they have been taught and believe they are in the church founded at Acts 2 by the 12 Apostles. The 12 apostles did not know the first thing about the church you and I are in:

Eph. 2:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph. 2:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

See, I have one big problem with this little list I gave you above:

Col. 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

I have not yet found one single "ordinance" that is of sight, that is a of a show in the flesh, that I can think of that I could, by my own and some other man's efforts add to that completeness.

And that's why grace "dispensationalists", "dry cleaners", "hypers & ultras", "church splitters" are looked down on as being "false teachers": We don't need anything but the gospel of Christ crucified, we don't need anything but Jesus Christ Himself. We've been here since the first century AD, the doctrines and commandments of men and the gates of hell have not prevailed against us and in 2009 had there never been a Protestant "reformation" we'd still be here.

And this is, therefore, a "program."

Yes, exactly. The program changed from the Nation of Israel, the church in the wilderness, over to exactly what God prophesied would happen, the believing remnant of the Messianic Apostolic church, the "program" changed again when God set Israel aside and grafted the Body made of primarily Gentiles into the Messianic church, the "program" will change when He Raptures the church out of the world and then begins to deal with Israel again.

There is another Christian that I know, who is also a KJV believer, strong in the Word, who said that God's dispensions are related to ERA's and that now we are in the CHURCH era. But I see that so many people think that this Church era is the LAST dispensation. However, God still has future dispensations that He will give, according to His own time.

Well, I agree with him we are in the church, the Body of Christ, the age of grace, the "but now", but these other Christians you mention are wrong because Paul says there is a "dispensation" after this one which is "ages to come"- Tribulation, Millennial Kingdom Of Heaven under Israel with Christ as King, then Eternity.

Yes, so much has cleared-up for me, once I understood about dispensation and God's overall plan. When a believer tries to mix up that up, their mind will be in chaos and they lose their understanding of "rightly dividing."


Thank you brother! It does help tremendously, in that it verified that I am on the right track in my understanding.

Jassy

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto Tony Bones, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

That's not what the verse says, does it sister? Take any message I post in this forum, if there is any suspicion that I am making converts to EW Bullinger, the Berean Bible Society of Cornelius Stam, or teaching "false doctrine" and then:

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Grace and peace sister Jassy

Tony

Fredoheaven 06-08-2009 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 21780)
Jassy,
I think most of us realize the importance of dispensational truth, and most are going to consider ourselves to be "moderate dispensationalists."

But if you think about it, the fact that we are told to RIGHTLY divide (2 Timothy 2:15) means you can also WRONGLY divide the Bible, so please don't get confused with Hyperdispensational nonsense. This kind of doctrine is often filled with quagmires of “private interpretation” and sometimes flat out heresies.
Here are a few more articles for your consideration...
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/wrongly1.html
http://www.victory-baptist.net/hyper.htm#_ftn13
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/books/hy...tionalism.html

:amen: thanks for the links. I have my copy of "In defense of Biblical and Historical Christianity, I just download way back on August 30, 1998 and still studying Paulicians. The Author which I don't know said that the Paulicians were being falsely charged that they rejected ordinances. But what the Paulicians merely rejected were the Catholic practices of infant baptism. Any study of Paulicians brother? Any links? Not that with Wikepedia which cited that Paulicians never believed in the water baptism at all.

God bless you.

Winman 06-12-2009 07:32 PM

Bro Parrish

I also enjoyed those links. Now I understand some of the viewpoints of those I have been wrestling with here lately much better. I have been saying there is only one gospel, and Ruckman agrees.

Quote:


FALSE TEACHINGS OF HYPER-DISPENSATIONALISTS

PETER AND PAUL PREACHED "DIFFERENT" GOSPELS. If they did then Peter was cursed (Gal. 1:8-9). God taught Peter the Gospel in Acts 10:43, which he publicly acknowledges in Acts 15:11, while ALL ARE PRACTICING WATER BAPTISM.
I have been studying this on my own every night. And you know what? I came to the same conclusions as Ruckman.

chette777 06-13-2009 12:22 AM

Not all who hold to the view that from Acts 1 to 10 Peter taught a Kingdom Gospel. and after Acts 10 we have no more record of Peter preaching any Gospel. So that's right from Acts 10 on Peter taught the same Gospel as Paul. but from Acts 1-8 Peter was teaching the Kingdom Gospel, Paul had not been called yet. up until Acts 9 Paul was persecuting Jews who believed Jesus Was the Messiah and true king of Israel.

Not all who see the gospel from Matt-acts8 as the kingdom Gospel, and the Gospel from Acts 10-Philemon the Gospel of Grace are Hyper dispensationalists.

there are dispensations and there are right division of the word of truth. these are not the same

Winman 06-13-2009 03:15 PM

Chette

I really don't care what you label yourself, hyper, ultra, or just dispensationalists, whatever you want to call yourself. You and others teach there is more than one gospel, and I disagree with this completely and so does Ruckman. I am not a follower of Peter Ruckman, I know very little about him and have only read just a few articles by him since I came to this forum. But I can read, and I have been studying this subject very carefully, and the scriptures tell me there is only one gospel as Ruckman also says.

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I think these verses are very clear, and easily understood. Paul is saying there is one gospel, and one gospel only. And he warns those who would pervert this. I don't know about you, but I would be terrified to dare teach another gospel.

And I have already shown that Peter was not teaching the restoration of the kingdom to Israel if the Jews repented of killing Jesus. You have not one verse in the book of Acts to support your view. The only verse that could possibly be perceived this way is Acts 3:20. And it is a stretch to do so.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

First, Peter says to repent "that your sins may be blotted out" and does not mention the restoration of the kingdom. Second, yes, he does say Jesus will return, but this is the same message that all Christians have. We today await Jesus's return. But note that the heaven must receive Jesus until the "times" of restitution of all things. This shows that at least two ages or times must take place before Jesus would return. So Peter could not have been promising the immediate return of Jesus if the Jews repented of killing Jesus.

And in Acts 11 Peter confirms that the Gentiles were hearing the same gospel as the Jews in the early chapters of Acts.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Here Peter says these Gentiles received the Holy Ghost just as they did on the Day of Pentacost. And these Gentiles received the Holy Ghost by hearing, not baptism. And note in verse 19 that the Gentiles ALSO were granted repentance unto life.

Not one mention here of the restoration of the kingdom. But Peter does mention believeing on Jesus (repentance) to the receiving of everlasting life.

Chette, the trouble with this dispensationalism is that it gives you a pre-determinded bias before you read scripture. So instead of clearly and simply understanding what the scriptures say, you try to interpret them to fit your preconceived bias. And in this case, you have come up with another gospel that is never mentioned in Acts. In fact, the word "gospel" does not even occur in Acts until chapter 8 when Peter and John preach to the Samaritans.

Acts 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

This is the first mention of the gospel in Acts. It is not about the restoration of the kingdom, and it is not even to the Jews.

I think you should heed the warning of Paul not to preach another gospel.

chette777 06-13-2009 06:08 PM

then what you are saying is you don't believe the word of God which declares 3 gospels in the New testament. of course we all agree there is only one for today.

Winman 06-13-2009 06:30 PM

You got it. I believe there is only one gospel as Paul preached.

Gal 1:Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

What part of "any other gospel" do you not understand??

If I am wrong, I am in error and do not properly understand the scriptures. If you are wrong, you are accursed.

That is not my saying, this is what the scriptures say.

chette777 06-13-2009 06:40 PM

then what you are saying is you don't believe the word of God which declares 3 gospels in the New testament. of course we all agree there is only one for today. but the problem you face is this the Gospel john, Christ and the 12 preached before the cross was not the same as what Paul taught and neither is the Gospel of the Angel in Revelation. nor was the Gospel that peter taught after acts 1 through Acts 6.

The first Gospel in the New Testament

The first four verse are are clearly stated to be gospels (which would not be the same as Paul's Gospel) it is offered by Jesus the 12 and John the Baptist. The Gospel they preach required repentance, baptism which are works. all this is offered before the Cross. it is to Israel alone and if they believed they the Kingdom could be established. the remaining scriptures support these four

Mt 4:23 ¶ And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
Mt 9:35 ¶ And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mr 1:14 ¶ Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

These verses are supporting versdes as to what is being offered wioth this Gospel, and it is the Kingdom. this gospel is being offered after the resurrection because God teh Father answerwed Jesus Prayer to forgive them for they know not what they do. and it will be the rejection of the fulness of God during the post resurrection days.

Mt 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mt 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mr 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. (you see the word repent before believe indicates a work)
Lu 8:1 ¶ And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve [were] with him,
Lu 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. (all these gospel preachings are before the cross)

The Second Gospel in the New Testament

Here is Paul's Gospel and has no similarity with the Kingdom Gospel. this gospel requires only belief or faith. this Gospel is called the gospel of Grace, the gospel of His Son, the Gospel of God, the Gospel of Christ never does Paul this Gospel in any of his writing the gospel "the gospel of the Kingdom"

Also it is from the time of Paul's conversion that if any man preach another Gospel he is to be accursed (Galatians) the kingdom gospel presentation with it's works is officially over and it was only to Jews and Jewish converts like the Eunuch.

Ac 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Ro 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

these verses describes the gospel, you will notice that the Kingdom gospel has no burial resurrection and rising until after the cross and it is added to the Kingdom gospel only to convince Israel that Jesus was indeed the Christ, their King. Paul's gospel never refers to the kingdom and the mystery is revealed that Christ dies for all men's sins and the grace of God is given freely to those who believe not on him as King or Messiah but as Saviour.

1Co 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The Third Gospel in the New Testament.


the third Gospel which will be preached in the future Tribulation is the Everlasting Gospel and what it entails in described in the verses itself

Re 14:6 ¶ And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

chette777 06-13-2009 06:44 PM

If you deny that these three exist in the NT you are willfully denying the word of God.

Winman 06-13-2009 06:48 PM

OK, your supposed "first" gospel.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

OK Chette, is this what Christians should do? This gospel is to be preached in all the world unto all nations. That means Gentiles too.

Of course, if it is the gospel to believe on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, it is not a problem, it would be the same gospel.

And what gospel did Jesus preach to the Jews?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Remember who Jesus was speaking to when he said this? Nicodemus, a Jew.

What works were the Jews to do?

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

No baptism mentioned here, simply believe on him whom God hath sent. Jesus. Same gospel I heard when I got saved.


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