What's wrong with the Paraphrase Bible?
 

Paraphrase (par'a fraz) noun: 1. a rewording of something spoken or written
2. an approximate rendering of a qoutation

Paraphase is a restatement of a text or passage, using other words. The term "paraphrase" derives via the Latin "paraphrasis" from the Greek para phrasein, meaning "additional manner of expression". It is a retelling of something in your own words. It is about what the author thinks the Bible says, not necessarily what the Bible says. Examples are The Message, The Living Bible, Contemporay English Version etc.

So is a paraphrase version really a bible? The answer is NO! It is merely an "opinion" of the writer on the verse or verses or the entire bible. In the CEV for example of John 1:14 states:

14. The Word became a human being and lived here with us. We saw his true glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father. From him all the kindness and all the truth of God have come down to us.

So what's wrong with this particular verse? Basically, it added words to the Word of God and the same time it deleted words from the Word of God. We all know for sure that adding, deleting or altering the words of God is the very dangerous thing. For study see Rev. 22:18-19.

In the example, one can note that it adds "human being" which is not to be found in the New Testament Greek. Eventually the Gk"sarx" which translated flesh is deleted on the text. Further, our Lord here refers as the only "begotten" of the Father. Again it has deleted the key word "begotten", a very vital truth of the Bible.

"Every word of is pure...Do not add to His words, lest he rebuke you, and you be found a liar" Prov. 30:5-6

The thing about a paraphrase is that your at the mercy of the translator/writer. His or her theological views can be mixed into the text. Also paraphrasing can totally ruin the intended message of a verse or entire chapters.

Not to mention that a paraphrase wouldn't be concerned in the least with the WORDS of God. Every WORD of God is pure, not just the message or meaning.

Because every WORD of God is pure, and not just the message or meaning, to paraphrase God's words is to take what is holy and profane it, imo.

Amen.

Baptist 1611
 

A very good site like this one. Thank you, I know i will learn a lot from them. Jude 25

Fredoheaven;
You might like to look at this web sight
http://www.sacredsandwich.com/bible_versions.htm

Great Sites for Me
 

:amen: it's a great site indeed.

Jude 25
http://www.fredsites.weebly.com

Sigh...my first post here. Hopefully I will be welcomed to share my different point of view regarding this subject. I typed this up a couple of nights ago and gave it some thought before typing up more to it.

If these versions of the Bible which use phrases to help the reader understand God are "perversions" as people call them, then my level of understanding the Holy Spirit must be through the roof considering my experiences, since I have been able to successfully understand quite a bit about God using the CEV for a couple of years. I then was using the NIV Study Bible from Fall 2002 (when I bought it), and I still continue to use it to this day. I can honestly say that since encountering the idea that the KJV is the only Bible that God would want us to use, that my experiences do not reflect that idea as being legitimate.

Three days before I accepted Jesus into my heart, I was unsure what the right path was. I asked God in prayer to "help me to find you." The next day I received the flyer advertising my friend's church. I decided to go this time. This was important because I just completely wrote it off the last two times he handed out flyers. Before going to his church, I thought to myself that I went to a Methodist church.

I went to his church, and after receiving Jesus into my heart, I received a Bible, as I would call it anyways. It was not a KJV, an NIV, an NASB, or NKJV. It was...a CEV. So the question I now pose...if God really exclusively honors the KJV Bible; if the KJV Bible is the only good version of the Bible, why is it that in that experience I was handed a CEV Bible?

Allegedly, the KJV Bible that people use now is altered, even if it is ever so slightly. As someone who can relatively use computers fluently, I know that if you change just one letter, just one item on a document, that document becomes a different document. If the KJV Bible that people are using has just one letter that is different from the original, then it is not the exact same Bible as before.

Regarding translation, I think a person is already vulnerable to what the translator's interpretation is if they do not know the language that is being interpreted from. The only way to guarantee that their translation is accurate is to be fluent with both the language being translated from, and the language being translated to. If I only understand the language in which something is being translated to, I have to have trust that the person doing the translating is giving me the correct translation. Often times, the person receiving the translation does not know the language the item in question is being translated from. The person wants the translation so they are able to understand it. Understanding what is being said is important.

Something to consider when quoting verses is context. This is an example given to me from a professor at University of Texas at Austin:

"Time flies like an arrow."

How is this to be interpreted? There are 3 ways:

1. Time is treated as a noun. Flies is treated as a verb. Like an arrow is treated as a preposition. In this case, we understand the statement to be a simile in that time moves fast.

2. Time is treated as an adjective. Flies is treated as a plural noun. Like is treated as a verb. An is treated as an adjective. Arrow is treated as a noun. So here, there is a species of flies known as time flies. These flies like, as in wanting to have more relationship, with an arrow.

3. Time is treated as a command. Flies is treated as a plural noun. Like an arrow is treated as simile again. Basically here, a person is to use a stopwatch in associating with timing flies, and they are to do so like an arrow.

Which is the correct interpretation of the phrase "time flies like an arrow"? We receive the correct interpretation of the phrase depending on the context. Often times, it is to mean that time is going fast.

Taking words out of context can also ruin the intended message. If the above phrase really was referring to timing flies with a stopwatch, and one were to quote it in response to someone who wanted to time flies for some reason with a stopwatch, the person might continue with his endeavor with timing the flies with the stopwatch, even though the context might actually indicate that it really was a way of referring that time flies really fast.

I believe that there is advantage in choosing to use a phrase-by-phrase approach to translation as opposed to an exclusive word-for-word translation. I also agree that there is risk associated with translating via phrase-by-phrase. I also believe that the translators of the NIV knew what they were getting into, and I am pretty sure that they were aware of the risks associated with putting it all together. They probably spent countless hours praying over it, and they probably checked their work several times over.

After all this, I do ask an honest question. Am I allowed to pray for the people in the Prayer Request forum here? I ask the question honestly, because I use the NIV Study Bible as my main Bible, but I do not want people to think that I might be hindering them because I do not use the KJV regularly.

Kirandio, your paragraph regarding the skills of the translators should be taken to heart in your search for an accurate copy of the Scriptures. It would do you well to examine the lives and skills of the translators of the KJB. You would have a new appreciation for the quality of the translation, if only from a human prospective. Add to that, the KJB carries with it a nearly four century history of its effectiveness. Without exception, every modern version dating back to the Revised Version of 1881 forward to the latest product to show up, none of these have the staying power (lacking the power of the Spirit), and will pass from the scene by lack of interest or by modernization by their publisher/owners (NIV -> TNIV -> ?NIV), (RSV -> NRSV -> ESV), (ASV -> NASB[##year] ), etc.

Re: "What's wrong with the Paraphrase Bible?"
 

Aloha Kirandio,

#1. God has given you the Liberty to pray for whomsoever you wish to pray for. Which "Bible" you use has nothing to do with who you pray for.

#2. It is not necessary to have a complete Bible or a even a complete New Testament to get saved. You get saved by hearing the word of God (i.e. the Gospel), and you could do that with a simple Salvation tract.

#3. I don't know how long you have been saved, but I do know that you have NOT examined this issue (Which Bible?) in any depth, and that you are depending on your own private "opinion" in deciding the issue.

The following are some links to this issue if you care to examine it in more depth:

A letter outlining the "Which Bible" Controversy - which includes a partial list of several books covering the subject of "Which Bible".:
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...3&postcount=69

I also have a short "synopsis" of many of the books covering the subject of "Which Bible". I have personally read every book that I have listed and if you are interested, you can find the list (with the synopsis) at this link:
http://www.thywordistruthkjv.com/booklist.html

An essay on why I believe the King James Bible:
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...78&postcount=1

Two essays by Moses LemuelRaj on "The Inspiration of Scripture:
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...19&postcount=1

If you are truly interested in the truth of this issue you will not only search out what I have listed here, but there are plenty of web sites on the net that could supply you with more information than you could possibly absorb in 20 years of study. I have some links to some of those websites on my website listed by my "Avatar" below.

Did someone mention the NIV? :)

Why would you admire an NIV bible that removes the word "begotten" from John 3:16, says that Jesus couldn't grasp equality with God in Philippians 2:6, removes the name "Jesus" in 38 places, completely removes the word "Godhead" from the Bible, completely removes the word "sodomite" from the Bible, removes the word "hell" 40 times, and changes every mention of people "worshipping" Jesus to a mere "knelt"?

Kirandio, welcome to the forum!

Bro. Tim and Bro. George are giving you good advice and counsel here my friend. I can tell you from my own experience that shortly after I was saved I used to carry something called THE LIVING BIBLE. (my brethren here will get a chuckle out of this, but it's true). Eventually I prayed and asked God to lead me to a good Church and within a few weeks a young man knocked on my front door from an Independent Baptist Church.

I carried that Living Bible to church for several months, and I will tell you that aside from a few mild comments, no one was ever rude to me about it, even though the pastor only uses the KJV and mentioned several times from the pulpit why. Eventually a man by the name of Peter Ruckman came to our church, and my Living Bible was soon shifted to "shelf duty," where it remains to this day.

Ruckman challenged his audience to examine what they believed about God's Word. He offered no apology for his views and no quarter for any scholar. As I investigated his claims, I was SHOCKED about the corruption in modern versions! Maybe this was my pastor's way of exposing me to the truth without offending me personally, and we are all friends to this day. So let me challenge you today to examine EXACTLY what you think about God's Word and ask yourself, what is YOUR FINAL AUTHORITY ON SPIRITUAL MATTERS. I hope God will give you the courage to hit this front on---with an open mind my friend, and do study the links you were just given.

As I just mentioned to another member of this forum earlier today, look carefully at the leaven below, (this is the doctrine of the Bible correctors) and ask God which Bible really is the Word of God for your life today... I'm glad you accepted Jesus into your heart---we are praying for you brother!



THE CREED OF THE ALEXANDRIAN CULT

by Peter Ruckman


1. There is NO FINAL AUTHORITY but God.

2. Since God is a SPIRIT, there is NO FINAL AUTHORITY that can be seen, heard, read, felt or handled.

3. Since all books are MATERIAL, there is NO BOOK ON THIS EARTH THAT IS THE FINAL AND ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY on what is right and what is wrong; what constitutes TRUTH and what constitutes ERROR.

4. There WAS a series of writings one time which, IF they had all been put into a BOOK as soon as they were written the first time, WOULD HAVE constituted an infallible and final authority by which to judge truth and error.

5. However, this series of writings was LOST, and the God Who inspired them was UNABLE TO PRESERVE THEIR CONTENT through Bible-believing Christians at Antioch (Syria), where the first Bible teachers were (Acts 13:1), and where the first missionary trip originated (Acts 13:1-6), and where the word "CHRISTIAN" originated (Acts 11:26).

6. So, God chose to ALMOST preserve them through Gnostics and philosophers from Alexandria, Egypt, even though God called HIS SON OUT of Egypt (Mat. 2), JACOB OUT of Egypt (Gen. 49), ISRAEL OUT of Egypt (Exod. 15), and JOSEPH'S BONES OUT of Egypt (Exod. 13).

7. So, there are two streams of Bibles: the most accurate - though, of course, there is NO FINAL, ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY FOR DETERMINING TRUTH AND ERROR: it is a matter of "preference" - are the Egyptian translations from Alexandria, Egypt, which are "almost the originals," although NOT QUITE.

8. The most INACCURATE TRANSLATIONS were those that brought about the GERMAN REFORMATION (Luther, Zwingli, Boehler, Zinzendorf, Spener, etc.) and the worldwide MISSIONARY MOVEMENT of the English speaking people: the Bible that Sunday, Torrey, Moody, Finney, Spurgeon, Whitfield, Wesley, and Chapman used.

9. But we can "tolerate" these if those who believe in them will tolerate US. After all, since THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE AND FINAL AUTHORITY THAT ANYONE CAN READ, TEACH, PREACH, OR HANDLE, the whole thing is a matter of "PREFERENCE." You may prefer what you prefer, and we will prefer what WE prefer: let us live in peace, and if we cannot agree on anything or everything, let us all agree on one thing: THERE IS NO FINAL, ABSOLUTE, WRITTEN AUTHORITY OF GOD ANYWHERE ON THIS EARTH.

This is the creed of the Alexandrian Cult.

The carnal mind is my own enemy.

I read the King James Bible in spite of it.

If I let it have it's way, I'll convince myself I don't need any Bible and be like those who claim to be "spiritual" rather than "religious".

I'm neither.

I'm a Christian, like the Bible says I am.

George, #3 is a false statement. You do not know me, and you do not know how long I have been examining this issue. However, I will take up your offer on #1, since honestly, I think that miracle might be the only form of persuasion available for the people here, and even then I am not too sure of how persuasive miracle would be.

Brother Parrish, I will answer some of your questions. I did find begotten in the footnote of John 3:16 and 3:18, specifically "his only begotten Son" for 16, and "God's only begotten Son" for verse 18.

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=...ter=3&verse=16

The above website shows how John 3:16 reads from different versions.

http://net.bible.org/strong.php?id=3439

The above link is apparently how begotten was translated. It looks like the NIV translators were already aware of begotten being in other translations, so they wanted to make aware that it could also read "one and only Son."

To be honest, I want the translators of a document to provide such information for me. If I was programming something and needed information that was acquired from translation, I would want to be provided as many details as possible regarding what I would be working on. The level of depth I would want would depend on what it is I might be working on. If I was to program a simple "Hello World" program, I probably would not need that much depth. If however, I was to program something on an Operating System level, and if I needed information from someone else working on the project too, and if I needed translation from their language, I would want as much detailed information I could get.

Let's consider this situation regarding programming an Operating System. Let's assume that at the start of the project, I needed translation from somebody in India. After some time, people who I would consider reliable end up providing a translation. Now, let's say that after two years of working on this Operating System, someone who is relatively new to the company looks over the documents that were translated. This person proves that he is able to read what document was translated from. Assume that I am the head of this project. What if this person decided to provide some information I would be interested in seeing. Would I fire him or call his work a perversion? As the head of the project, I would value this information. I would also look into finding more people to translate the document to see what else it could mean. Remember, this is an Operating System that we are developing.

How much more valuable is God than an operating system? How much more should we seek additional information regarding the translation of the Bible. Why would God limit me to using one translation, especially if a viable translation was available before the one that is considered the standard? After all, the Geneva Bible was printed and in use before the King James Version of the Bible. Why do we not use the Geneva Bible today?

This website is the one I have been mainly using for reference regarding this subject:

http://www.kjv-only.com/index.html

10 questions to honestly ask:

http://www.kjv-only.com/kjvoques.html

Regarding removing "Jesus":

http://www.kjv-only.com/jesusnew.html

And might I ask, what is a unicorn?

http://www.kjv-only.com/unicorn.html
http://www.kjv-only.com/rick/unicorns.html

Please note that I definitely consider the KJV of the Bible to be a viable Bible to use. I just do not consider it to be the only viable Bible. A website regarding this point of view:

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=665

I do ask that you pray about it before responding to this thread.

It's not about God limiting you, go back and read my post...
it's about the issue of FINAL AUTHORITY. :)

By the way, that website you are using for reference is a pack of lies and confusion, we are all familiar with it. (1 Corinthians 14:33) Now let me warn you my friend; you will do well to use discretion with your links and posts---choose them carefully here, because I can tell you the Admin will ban you if you start spreading untruth and leaven like that here. I'm not calling the shots, just giving you friendly advice---and that won't fly here.

Operating system?
Geneva Bible?
Hold on, I thought your authority was the NIV...?
(I think that's the one lesbian author Virginia Mollenkott consulted on)

look, there are lots of versions out there, many of them say different things, so pick one. Which one is your final authority? Do you believe there is one BOOK ON THIS EARTH TODAY THAT IS THE FINAL AND ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY on what is right and what is wrong...?

Re: "What's wrong with the Paraphrase Bible?"
 

Kirandio,

Your quote:
I said:
“Sigh” . . . . You have come to a “AV1611 Bible Forum” and we know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about you {your background? - male or female? single or married? – childless or children? - old or young? – how long you have been saved? - which church (or churches) you have attended? – etc.???}. But there is one thing I do know, and that is you have an arrogant and condescending manner that is contrary to how a Christian is supposed to conduct himself (and which is quite common amongst elitist scribes & scholars) - i.e. your insulting first opening comments in your second Post #14:

I let some of your personal remarks pass the first time around; however, it is now time to reply to your Post and demonstrate that my comments about your obvious lack of knowledge about the “Which Bible” issue was based on YOUR OWN STATEMENTS made in your Post #9.

You stated:
All of your previous statement equals nothing but your own private personal “opinion” and “experience. I doubt if anyone on this Forum would deny that most of the modern bibles contain SOME of God’s words. If the modern translators eliminated MOST of God’s words, even people like you would be able to see that. :rolleyes:

You said:
In my previous Post I answered with:
Again, you are referring to nothing more than your own private personal “opinion” and “experience”. And you neglected to mention that I did answer your question. (QUESTIONS – ALWAYS QUESTIONS! :confused:)

You claimed:
If you will notice – in your entire Humanistic logic and reasoning above you left out ONE CRUCIAL thing. You write about “computers”, “letters”, “documents”, and the “Bible”. But you omitted God’s WORDS! :( God is not concerned with spelling, or with punctuation; and He is not concerned with “documents”. Our God is concerned with His WORDS. How could you have forgotten that? Or did you ever know that to begin with? Oh, and by the way – Can you give me a one sentence “definition of the word “Bible”? Since you know so much, you should have a simple “definition” for what you are discussing.

I said that you haven’t examined this issue “in depth”, because of the shallowness of your arguments against the King James Bible, and the fact that nearly all of what you presented was your own personal private “opinion”.

Here are a few of the meaningless arguments that you used in trying to convince us of your “expertise”: “Your whole “hypothesis” is pure ASSUMPTION and CONJECTURE on your part. That is, once again, you are relying on “your own personal private “opinion” to determine this issue, and personally I’m not interested in your “OPINION” or the “opinions” of your friends either. HOW do you KNOW – HOW God looks at His words (or the spelling of His words)? Do you “think” that our God is a feckless “gnat strainer”? You’re ASSUMING that God looks at His Holy words, like you do, and you don’t have an ounce of PROOF to back up what you say. You’re entitled to your OPINION - That’s your privilege, but those of us who are genuine Bible believers (I'm referring to a BOOK that you can hold in your hands) don’t have to take your Humanistic reasoning seriously – NO NOT for even one minute!

Your “convoluted” description of translating and the translation process has NO BEARING what-so-ever on your “notions” about the King James Bible, other than the FACT that there never has been a group of Bible translators (before or after) the AV1611 translators that could even come close to their learning and knowledge of English and the various languages that they used to translate our Holy Bible. Your explanation about the “mechanics” of translating is “infantile” and “fatuous” – once again re-affirming the fact that you have NOT looked into this issue “in depth”; just like I said in my point #3.

Some of your final comments:
Let's "examine" some of what you have said: “I believe”; “I also agree; “I am pretty sure”; “They probably”! We need something more than your “assurance” that they “PROBABLY” and “I AM PRETTY SURE” before we throw out God’s Holy words based on your “vague” and “euphemistic” PERSONAL BELIEFS!

Your final argument against those of us who believe in the King James Bible demonstrates for all to see that your entire position is based on “your own personal private “opinions”. That is – from the beginning of your “sigh” Post #9 < > “What’s wrong with the Paraphrase Bible?”, until the end of the Post, all we were treated to were your private assumptions, speculations, conjectures, hypothesis, and suppositions; that is - “your own personal private “opinions”! And since we know NOTHING about you what-so-ever, we have absolutely NO REASON to take any of your “private opinions” seriously. As a matter of fact, you have just joined the ranks of the kooks, crazies, and crackpots that show up on this Forum about once a week, who presume to “lecture” us as to WHY our Bible is NOT Holy and WHY we are terribly mistaken.

You spoke about “the original”, perhaps you can produce a “copy” of “the original”, or tell us where we can find it, so that we can all benefit from “the original” BIBLE. And at the same time, maybe you can tell us just exactly where and when the “ORIGINAL BIBLE” (A BOOK that you can hold in your hands), came into being?

Did you check out (and read) any of the Links that I supplied you? I checked out all of the anti King James Bible “links” that you supplied us. With the exception of brother Moses LemualRaj’s essays on “Inspiration”, all of the links I supplied you were my own; and the essays and articles were written by me – not someone else. Do you have anything that you have written, or do you just depend on other people to do your thinking for you? :p

Have you ever read “any” of the books written by the men in the list I supplied in my letter? Have you read ANY books written by the following men?

IN THE PAST:
John W. Burgon, Edward Miller, F. H. Scrivener, Herman Hoskier, Bishop Wordsworth, Canon Cook, Sir Robert Anderson, Philip Mauro, Joseph C. Philpot, George Sayles Bishop, Benjamin C. Wilkinson, Robert Dick Wilson and Edward F. Hills.

PRESENT DAY:
J.J Ray, Terence H. Brown, Henry Coray, Zane C. Hodges, Alfred Martin, David Otis Fuller, Peter S. Ruckman, David Fountain, Gordon P. Gardiner, Wilbur N. Pickering, Donald T. Clarke, Bruce Cummins, Dick Cimino, Barry Burton, Perry F. Rockwood, , Billy Bartlett, Larry Bartlett Herbert Noe, William P. Grady, Thomas Holland, Floyd Nolan Jones, Lawrence M. Vance, Kent Brandenburg, Douglas T. Stauffer, and Michael Maynard. {I personally recommend "Forever Settled" by Dr. Jack Moorman as an excellent "first book" - if you have never studied this issue in depth.}

Have you read any of the books written by those men? If so – which ones? If you haven’t read any of these books, then you haven’t looked into this issue “in depth”, like I said in the beginning, and which I now will repeat. Unless you study both sides of an issue you CANNOT make an informed decision or judgment. And based on your foregoing Post, it’s quite obvious that you not only haven’t studied this issue "in depth", it is also perfectly clear that you have a personal bias against our Bible - That is you are prejudiced against the Holy words of God based on your own destructive and malignant private opinions!

Ask yourself: WHY are you here? Do you "think" that you are going to persuade any of us to “your point of view” with your flimsy arguments? WHAT are you trying to accomplish by coming here - to a AV1611 Bible Forum? Just WHAT is your "motive" for joining an AV1611 Bible Forum – if you don’t believe like we do? WHO do you think you are? I don’t go looking for arguments and debates on anti-King James Bible Forums. You have Christian liberty to believe whatever you want to believe (have at it); WHY does it "bother" you (so much) that we believe in the purity, perfection, and Holiness of the Holy Bible? WHAT is WRONG with us believing God, when He promised to PRESERVE His words?

Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

If you don’t want to believe God’s word, I’m NOT going to go to your (or your friends) Forum and try to persuade you to my belief. Believe what you will – it’s no skin off my nose. But know this: I (and most of the members on this Forum) have A FINAL AUTHORITY on this earth. I believe God has preserved His Holy words just exactly as He wants them in the King James Bible; and so I believe that my Bible is truly HOLY – NOT just a mere “translation”. Because of my belief in the King James Bible, it is my FINAL AUTHORITY in ALL matters of faith and practice.

On the other hand, you have NO “Final Authority” other than “your own personal private “opinions”! Someday, we shall see WHO God honors – those of us who have trusted Him to have kept His promises concerning His word; OR those “Christians” like yourself, who refuse to believe His promises, and who have, instead, decided to rely on their “own opinions”! You can rest assured that we ALL will know the “truth of this matter” at the Judgment Seat of Christ! :mad:

Until then, why don’t you and your “friends” keep to your own Forums, where you are free to “criticize” God’s Holy word anytime it pleases you, and we will stick to our Forum where we will Praise God for His word, and honor Him for it; and continue to defend it against “jackanapes” like yourself, who “think” that they have the right to “CORRECT”; or “ADD”; or “SUBTRACT”; or “CHANGE” God’s Holy words anytime they please! :eek:


Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

That's what I'm talkin' about.... :thumb:

Quite right Brother George! I can rest assured I dont join anti-KJB sites or modern version advocate sites to tell those who post and fellowship there their error, I leave that great truth to the Holy Ghost. I most certainly wouldnt visit another Brothers House, wipe my mucky feet on his carpet, abuse his home and ridicule his Hospitality and spit on his Bible, which it seems apostate Bible correctors do here at least once per week.

To the Correctors

IF YOU CANT HOLD ONE BIBLE IN YOUR HANDS AS THE INERRANT INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD! THEN DONT TRY AND DIMINISH OUR FAITH IN ONE BOOK BY YOUR LACK OF FAITH IN ANY BOOK!

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2 Timothy 3:1-7 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Re: "What's wrong with the Paraphrase Bible?"
 

Aloha brother Steven,

:amen: to that brother. I'm going to "borrow" that saying, because it says exactly what I believe, but in 1/10 of the space it takes me to say it! :rolleyes:

Brother George, you can take it, use it any way you like (I know how you like long groups of text together :) ) But the wonderful thing is, and I am sure many will agree, your time spent on posting regarding the WORD OF GOD is humbling to me and edifying in so many ways, my guidance by Gods Spirit to this forum has blessed me with many Brothers and Sisters whom I may never meet until we get home, but in the meantime I Cherish the time we spend over Gods HOLY WORD,
in the Study of it .....
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

in the Defence of It....
1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

in the fellowship of it
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And in the GLORY OF IT!
Psalms 148:12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children:
Psalms 148:13 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.

I love you and yours Dear Brother
God Bless.

You said "in any depth", so there was miscommunication, because I considered "any" to mean that as long as I had looked into both sides even as little as 30 seconds (I spent more than that btw), that would qualify. Am I correct in what you meant to say was "in any significant depth"? The FINAL AUTHORITY idea is interesting, I will look into it some more.

My definition of the Bible is the collection and compilation of God's Scriptures. These Scriptures are originally written in Greek and Hebrew. For me to be able to understand the Scriptures, they must be translated into my language so I can read them, or I can learn Greek and Hebrew to read the Scriptures. A person reading the Scriptures must be able to understand the meaning of the Scriptures for them to be of any use to the person. The actual words of the Scriptures are in Greek and Hebrew. These words were copied in manuscripts.

Is Scripture the actual words, or is Scripture the actual meaning? I believe that you will say that the Scripture is the actual words. If Scripture is the actual words, and if the actual words are in Hebrew and Greek, then no translation should be made, since adding and subtracting words is forbidden, because:

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

We are safer if we just read the words directly from the originals. After all, the King James translators used italics to show where they added words to their translation. As described above, adding words is forbidden to the text.

I believe that Scripture is the meaning. I am going to put this in a future post.

For a person to be able to receive the meaning of Scripture, the person must have the Scriptures translated, or if the person understands Greek and Hebrew then they can actually read the words directly. I will gather my thoughts up more on this part.

I do not believe God considers one specific English translation of the Bible to be the only English translation to be used. I believe that God would expect that men would want to continuously look into the Greek and Hebrew texts for more information regarding his Words. However, believing in such a manner does not make it the correct belief.

So if I understand this, you believe that the FINAL AUTHORITY for the English speaking world is the King James Bible that was printed out in 1611. You have this FINAL AUTHORITY available to use on your website.

I believe that the FINAL AUTHORITY is the very being of God. I am now starting here:

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Joh-1.html

John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The Word existed in the beginning, and the Word was equivalent to God.

My question: Is the Word still God today?

You consider the FINAL AUTHORITY to be the Word of God preserved in the King James Bible. I consider the FINAL AUTHORITY to be the living being of God. What about this possibility? The FINAL AUTHORITY is the Word of God. Since the Word of God is equal to God, then the FINAL AUTHORITY is equal to God, and therefore is God. Therefore, the FINAL AUTHORITY is God, since "the word was with God, and the Word was God."

Is the FINAL AUTHORITY still the Word? Is the Word still God?

But the word "was" in there means that it is in past tense. Is the Word of God still God? Do you believe that the AV 1611 King James Bible is equivalent to the Word that is presented in John 1:1? Do you believe that the AV 1611 King James Bible is God?

If the Word is equivalent to the AV 1611 King James Bible, then the AV 1611 King James Bible is God.

In programming terms:

type class Diety = {//way beyond our comprehension
};
//God is classified as Diety, God is the Alpha and Omega.

const Diety GOD = <The being of God and all His attributes>;
const Diety WORD_OF_GOD = GOD;
const Diety FINAL_AUTHORITY = WORD_OF_GOD;
//since WORD_OF_GOD == GOD, FINAL_AUTHORITY == GOD
//const is how to declare a constant. God never changes.
//Because God never changes, he is constant.

//For the AV 1611 King James Bible to be equivalent to the Word,
//the AV 1611 King James Bible must be God. Since God never changes,
//the AV 1611 King James Bible must be perfect the first time, and any
//duplication must be a perfect copy of the same one that was printed
//in 1611.

//If the AV 1611 King James Bible changes, even if just one letter changes,
//then God changes. This is a logical contradiction, since God never changes.
//Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob
//are not consumed.

//Is the AV 1611 King James Bible God?

//Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
//one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I will try to explain this as best I can. God is a diety, and his fullness is way beyond our comprehension. Since the Word was God, and God never changes, the Word is still God.

For the FINAL AUTHORITY to be the AV 1611 King James Bible, the AV 1611 King James Bible must be God.

I consider Scripture to be the meaning of the words that God has spoken. Here is where I have faith. I have faith that the AV 1611 King James Bible is Scripture. I have faith that the NIV is Scripture. Reading over this now, I realize that I want to have reasoning to support my faith.

Actually, this is why I accept the NIV: I have faith in God, and I seek the mind of God. When I started seeking the mind of God more aggressively around August, I decided to read John in the NIV. When I got to chapter 4, the mind of Jesus was visible in how he interacted with the woman at the well. The actions that Jesus took, not just the actions, but the very person of Jesus described in the NIV matched the being of God I know. Really, personal experience with God is how someone establishes a relationship with God. If I cannot trust my personal experiences as God driven, can I even put my trust in God?

Am I correct in that you believe that God is the AV 1611 King James Bible?

Is FINAL AUTHORITY of Diety classification? Is God of Diety classification?

Do you agree that miracle is God's way of establishing proof? If you do, I would also like to ask God for miracle to be involved with this, because I want God to be able to communicate to us His point of view on this subject.

Long post, and I expect that problems with my reasoning will be found.

Final scriptures:

Matthew 22:35-40:

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I quoted from your AV 1611 King James Bible text because I accept it as Scripture, and I know that you also accept it as Scripture.

Comedy of Errors
 

Kirandio, if you accept AV1611 KJB as scripture then it is useless to question God's Holy Word. But the fact is you are questioning it and believed that the scripture means to you as "meaning" not actually the words. However, in Proverbs 30:5 stated exactly that the Bible refers to the word/s of God. If you mind, please check the references of verses you made, needless and pointless to say that the scripture/s you mentioned were quoted in an English Bible(KJV), the one you say it does not need to be translated. You are mix up:confused::confused::confused:but I will still pray for you so you can understand God's Holy Word.

Psalms 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

2 Samuel 21:19 And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

If we omit the words "the brother of" then we make II Samuel 21:19 contradict I Chronicles 20:5: Which your modern counterfeits do.

1 Chronicles 20:5 And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam.

Psalm 16:8 says: "I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved."

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be
moved:

Peter Quotes the Italics here yet Luke does not write them as italic.

WHY Did Peter AND Luke quote these words if they were not in the original manuscripts? should we omit the italics? NOT according to 2 apostles.

Lets look to another apostle on the matter.
Deuteronomy 25:4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

Howerver when Paul quotes this verse in 1st Corinthians 9:9
He quotes the italics in Deuteronomy NOT in italics.

1 Corinthians 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

The Italics are a weak argument from any Bible corrector.

There you Go adding words that arent in the Bible. Deity (A Roman Catholic term) does not appear in the Holy Bible, the word you are looking for is Godhead, mentioned THREE time in the Bible, your modern counterfeits remove it
entirely

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Revisions of the 1611 have been grammatical and spelling changes NOT


ENTIRE WORD REMOVAL/ADDITION, the ommission of ENTIRE VERSES!

AS ABOVE!! that is a completely ignorant and weak argument as the MEANING of the words NEVER changed, only how they were spelt, so no, its NOT a logical contradiction its a Bible corrector grasping at straws.

You really need to ask such a question?
The AV 1611 contains the inerrant, infallible word of God
I challenge you to points out the errors in the KJB and each and every one will be refuted by this forum, yet my 8 year Old niece (who is Born again yes) knows many of the ERRORS in modern counterfeits with no study, just plain common sense, its there for all to see, those who chose to ignore it such as yourself spend a great deal of time coming to Bible believing forums with the same old weak arguements expecting to show us some revelation on why ALL bibles are the word of God, in spite of their grevious error. I would rather have ONE BOOK on my shelf that I could trust in as Gods preserved words, than a whole bookshelf of badly translated, error laden, philosophy leavened books that I could NOT sincerly hold in my Hand as Gods Book, inerrant, infallible and from this generation FOREVER!

The second time you have mentioned the need of a miracle? in regards to this issue? Why are you concluding that we are not saved or in serious trouble with God because we believe that God just so happened to preserve his word in ONE BOOK, not 200 or so flim flam translations. That we need a miracle to put away one book without error, that keeps the name Jesus, that doesn't remove it 38 times in modern counterfeits, that Keeps the Godhead, that Keeps the virgin Birth, that KEEPS THE BLOOD in which we are washed!

To quote that Old wonderful Gospel Hymn
"What can wash away my sin?"
"NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS"

He has, and he will, through the Bible, through his written word, perfectly preserved without error in the AV1611.

My Question for you:
WHY are YOU here? Why should the Brethren on this forum need a miracle to Put down one Book, error free and embrace Roman Catholic, Greek Philosophy, humanistic leavened modern versions.
Spend your prayer time asking for a Miracle for the lost, those who will die without Christ and spend an eternity in hell, not that Gods people compromise with ecumenical standards. GOD FORBID!

Re: " What's wrong with the Paraphrase Bible?"
 

Kirandio's quote (partial):
Kirandio,

First off, before you start to reply to someone's Thread or Post, it would be far more understandable if you would simply identify who you are replying to. On the other hand, considering what you have Posted thus far - your Posts demonstrate that "clarity" isn't one of your strong "suits, and neither is sincerity or forthrightness.

Most of your reply is Sophistical gibberish and just a whole lot more of "your own private personal opinions”. You try to portray yourself as someone who knows something about the "Which Bible" issue, but your WORDS betray you to be just another disbelieving "Christian" who casts doubt on the truth of God's Holy words and who has NO FINAL AUTHORITY other than "your own private personal opinions”.

Your "your own private personal definition" of the BIBLE is most instructive:
So, according to your "opinion" - the "Bible" is NOT A BOOK (that someone can hold in their hands), but a "collection and compilation of God's Scriptures"! According to "your own private personal definition" - the BIBLE is LIMITED to the "originals" and/or the "original languages". And so, according to you, the "BIBLE" equals every single Hebrew and Greek manuscript existing on Earth; whether it is the various available Hebrew manuscripts; or whether it is a scrap (or scraps)of "papyrus" (written in Greek) found in some ancient dump in Egypt; or the corrupt "Codex's" (Uncial - Capital letter Greek manuscripts) Vaticanus (B), Sinaiticus (Aleph), Alexandrinus (A) or the most depraved of all "codex's" - "Bezae" (D); or the thousands of "Cursive" (lower case Greek manuscripts) manuscripts). According to "your own private personal definition": ALL of the above = "THE BIBLE".

But what of the "Greek" Lectionaries? And what about the "church fathers" quotations of Scripture (written in "Greek" - of course!)? Will you "include" them in "your own private personal definition" of "THE BIBLE"?

Can you not see how utterly ridiculous "your own private personal definition" of the BIBLE is? The BIBLE IS A BOOK (that a person can hold in their hands) NOT ALL of the extant manuscripts (only in Hebrew & Greek - of course!), none of which is "COMPLETE", that exist in the world! The BIBLE IS A BOOK (that a person can hold in their hands) that contains ALL of the words of God!

There are "bibles" (books that you can hold in your hand) that contain SOME of the words of God; there are "bibles" (books that you can hold in your hand) that contain MOST of the words of God; and then there is the King James Bible (a BOOK that a person can hold in their hands) which contains ALL of the words of God, exactly as God has preserved them - Perfect, Holy, Inspired, Infallible, and without error.

"Your own private personal definition" of the BIBLE is not only RIDICULOUS, it is also UNTENABLE; that is, it CANNOT be defended - at least NOT by anyone that is in their "right mind"! :confused:

"THE BIBLE" is A BOOK that a person can hold in their hands. From 1611 to the middle 1900's the HOLY BIBLE (AV1611/King James Bible) reigned SUPREME amongst Christians of all "Denominations" and "Sects" (and even most of the "Cults" - with the exception of the Catholic Church). In the last 100 years better than 100 versions ("bibles") have been produced in English, and they ALL have one thing in common - They DIFFER (words) from the King James Bible (some MORE than others) and pretty much AGREE (words) with each other.

You are free to choose whichever "bible" you want to use, but don't try to "con" us into thinking that you have anything "new" to add to the "Which Bible" controversy; because so far, all we have seen (your Posts) is the same old Humanistic reasoning - that is: uncertainty, ambiguity, confusion, doubt, distrust, and faithlessness, that we have seen for over 40 years from "Christians" who know very little about the subject, but who have decided the issue, based on their "own private personal opinions”; and who have NO IDEA WHERE God's Holy word is, or WHAT IT IS - and are condemned by their own anemic testimony :eek:

You have NO FINAL AUTHORITY other than "your own private personal opinions” and to "PRETEND" that the Incarnate WORD is your "Final Authority", MINUS His Holy written word is the height of hypocrisy, deceit, casuistry, and duplicity! Your very words make a MOCKERY of the very Scriptures you "profess" to believe in! :eek:

You're not "interested" in "THE TRUTH", you're interests lay in doubt, uncertainty, and confusion. To put it simply - you are a "Christian" SOPHIST (and not the first one by a long shot), and nothing that we do or say will change that fact! :mad: . . . . "be NOT faithless, but believing".

Proverbs 29:20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

LOL, very good George... I knew where this was headed when he started trying to communicate in "programming terms." :pound: :pound: :pound:

I already added the ALEXANDRIAN CREED way back in post no. 12, and now we see how closely he aligns himself starting with the very first point:

Kirandio:
"I believe that the FINAL AUTHORITY is the very being of God."

So there it is---like a dead catfish in the sunlight.
Sure enough, that is EXACTLY what he thinks.
The subject of FINAL AUTHORITY will flush out the game hens every time... :rolleyes:

Second Admonition
 

Kirandio, consider this verse:

Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Using Easton Bible Dictionary and I quote "In Tit 3:10 a "heretical person" is one who follows his own self-willed "questions," and who is to be avoided. Heresies thus came to signify self-chosen doctrines not emanating from God (2Pe 2:1).

I pity you and only praying things will change for the last time. Obioviously, Bro. George and Bro. Parrish have already given their second(2nd) admonition thus far and Bro. peopleoftheway made a good points for you. God is watching and His servants too.:spy::spy::spy:

Acts 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Habakkuk 2:1 I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.

Good one, Bro. Parrish. This is the litmus test.

Amen brother,
let's hope this Kirandio can see the light! :)