The Church with no power
 

Something that has plagued the church throughout its history is being dead or dying. There were times when the church was alive with power, and other times when it was nothing more than a religious gathering.

People are looking for more than philosophies and hype. The want the "real-deal". They want to have more than religion. They want something that is life-changing.

I've tried to get into discussions in different threads and forums and it seems when it is discovered I'm a Pentecostal, I get "pounced on" by those who do not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit being active today. I'm going to put a Scripture out there and let anyone who desires comment on it. I'm sure there will be plenty said. I personally believe those who don't believe that the gifts are active in this dispensation are still my brother and sister if they have believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

BTW: I'm not implying this Scripture applies to non-pentecostals.

That verse is referring to lost religious people - having a form of salvation, but no real power behind it. Truly saved people have the power of the Holy Spirit working within them.

Losing the real maening
 

Pastor Mikie,
When one who comes on this forum and people find out what church they go to whether it's baptist, pentecostal, catholic, methodist, nazarene, etc. Though most here believe the KJV to be the infalliable Word of God, we might judge one to be wrong for what they believe. Yes there are things that I do take a stand for according to the Word. Do I know it all, no. But for me to get caught up defending the KJV, I and we can lose sight on the real message and that is to please God and win souls for Christ. No matter how hard I try to understand somethings in God's Word. I will never arrive and know it all. All I can ask is the Holy Spirit just show me a little more than I had yesterday. This forum here, I can stand up for the things I believe in, but I can also learn to, if I keep a teachable spirit.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

God Bless,
James

I'm hoping to get a discussion going, because the verse, to me, has to do with people with "less-than-pure" motives getting into the church and draining the life out of people. Even though I'm a Pentecostal, it sickens me to walk into a church, see people give others a feigned "God Bless You", speak perfect "christinanese", howler, jump up and down, act all spiritual, quote some Bible verses, then, when they leave the building, stand outside the door and gossip, act all cute and flirty (to varying degrees), have no idea what the sermon was about, act mean as a snake.....you know what I''m talking about.

There have been times I've just wanted to stay home and not bother with church at all. But then I come to my senses. I realize I can stay home and be all critical and angry. Or, go to church with the mind-set of giving (like my wife says, "live to give") and not just receiving. I desire to be part of the solution.

The sad fact is, in all my years as an itinerate preacher, the majority of churches we've ministered in were cold, dead and religious gatherings (just playing church).

Prayer and a move of God is the ultimate answer, but, what about our part?

We need to make sure we ourselves are not personally guilty of going through the motions - and if so, get it right.

When others see the Holy Spirit at work in and through us, they will be encouraged and exhorted to also have a genuine walk with the Lord. When they see us with our plastic smiles and outward show, it just reassures them that they can also go through the motions and be okay (in their own minds, though of course not with God).

Exactly Jerry! As the Bible says "man looketh on the outward appearance, but God looketh on the heart." I don't think we can force people to have a sincere heart towards God. It's our job to serve God with all our strength and with all our heart, and through being a testinmony and preaching the Word, God can deal with those that have a "fake" heart towards Him. I believe we can preach about the "false" heart, but when it comes down to it, we have to understand it's between them and God.

Welcome MGC1952. I see you are new here.

I don't like the labels either. I pastored a Souther Baptist church (interim) for 16 months before anyone but the board knew I was a Pentecostal. I told the board before they asked me to become their Pastor, but they didn't care. It never really was an issue until the former pastor found out. He and I were friends until he found out I was Pentecostal. Then he treated me like I had the plague. I thought that was a little hypocritical of him since he had become an alcoholic. The reason it wasn't a problem with the board was because neither my wife nor I made an issue of it. We were there to Preach Jesus Christ. If anyone asked me, though, I told them the truth. It was what I considered to be a "deacon possessed church" and it was dying because of it. Even the SBC knew I was Pentecostal and they weren't concerned.

Before that, I Pastored an Assembly of God church (interim) and it was in the same condition: a possessive board.

I've found that people are people no matter what label they have. Our behaviour is, unfortunately, how the world judges Christianity. The Lord is truly good, but not all those who claim to be His are. That is a challenge.

Hi Pastor Mikie,

Ok, I am going to make an observation here, but I want to assure you I am not attacking you personally. I wish to make this observation from a doctrinal point of view only.

My observation is this, I find it amazing that a southern Baptist congregation could sit and listen to a pentacostal preacher for 16 months and not notice.

In my opinion,this church was dying because;

a) the congregation was so lacking in doctrinal foundation that they couldnt tell a Pentacostal from a Baptist.

b) None of the deacons were well founded enough to pastor the flock until a new shepherd was found, and seemingly, were prepared to compromise for the sake of expedience.

I am not setting out to be offensive here, just pointing out the fact that Pentacostals and Baptists have very different doctrinal viewpoints in some areas, differences that would be patently obvious to any member of our independent Baptist church.

As for the disdaining of "labels"...that viewpoint is a little too ecumenical for my liking.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Simply by obeying the above command, we are going to be labelled.


Fundy

The differences between what I believe and most Baptist churches were minute. As for labels, I'm not trying to be ecumenical. I hold that there are fundamental ("critical" or "essential") doctrines then there are other doctrines that are not essential to salvation. The ones that are essential:

1. The Bible is a Christian’s final authority. Without this fact being established, it all becomes a matter of opinion. God doesn’t have “opinions”.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

2. We are all sinners
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

3. God Himself provided a way for us to get saved from sin and saved from judgment
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

4. And we can have assurance of being saved
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

5. It's the blood of Jesus Christ that washes away our sins
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood...

6. Because of this, we will be with Jesus forever
John 14:3 (Jesus speaking) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

7. Because of what Jesus did, we miss Hell
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

8. There is only one way to Heaven
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is worth contending for. Not just to be accurate, but to win those who are on their way to Hell. Remember:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I'm supposing you're referring to the doctrines of eternal security and gifts of the Spirit. Knowing how Baptists believe (I used to be a Baptist), I didn't think it was necessary (while pastoring the SBC church) to aggravate a person just to be right about my point of view. I wanted to convince them of the truth, not just prove myself right. I never did hide it, it just didn't seem necessary to be obnoxious about it. If I was going to aggravate someone, it would be concerning the fundamentals I mentioned above and calling sin sin.

As for eternal security, I believe closer to what Baptists believe. My contention is nobody has to be saved if they don't want to be. A "debate" I had with an atheist, the atheist said he used to be a born again Christian, attended Bible college and was a Christian for many years (and he believed all the essential doctrines and did evangelistic work) until his tour in the navy supposedly "opened his eyes to the truth" and he stopped believing in God. To say he is still saved would be a problem since he no longer believes there is a God. And, to say he was never saved in the first place, that would be closer to Roman Catholic doctrine. He said he repented of his sins, prayed to receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. If he wasn't saved in the first place, how do we know that? If we were to have met him before he became an atheist, we would have called him our brother in Christ.

So, you see, it is those two areas of contention that are the differences between me as a Pentecostal and most Baptists (I say most because of the doctrine of predestination is held by some Baptists and I believe the predestination is for Christians as described in the following verses:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will...

...and NOT that some are ordained to be saved and other are not).

In this thread, I'm trying to get away from arguing about the gifts of the Spirit because it isn't getting anywhere. Where churches are dying is their replacing God's Word with a counterfeit.

If you preached in an SBC church and did not touch down on the doctrines where you differed, then you compromised - because they Bible COMMANDS you to preach ALL the counsel of God's Word.

As far as that atheist, according to the Bible they were never saved - like the seed that sprung up for a little while but had no root and soon withered away. If someone claimed to be a believer at one time, then later utterly rejects the Lord and His Word, they were never saved to begin with - no matter how much they convinced themselves or others that they were.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I knew someone would say that - accuse me of compromise- and the "not saved in the first place" thing.That's just being contentious and argumentative and sounds like a miserable Christian in need of some joy (at least that is how it comes across to me). Consider these verses (Jesus speaking):

Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

1 Corinthians 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


When I know someone does not believe as I do, should I become obnoxious? It isn't like I refused to discuss it or denied it. When I received the Gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:45), I wasn't nagged. Well, I didn't "nag" either.

I hope this doesn't turn out to be another "get the Pentecostal guy" discussion. I'm going to limit myself to discussing the tragedy of dead and dying churches. I desire to be used of God to be a part of the solution and not the problem.

I did not mention any particular doctrine. You are called to preach the whole Bible, not just the message of salvation. As a pastor, if you only touched down on what was agreeable to everyone (ie. just salvation in this case - as you indicated), then you did not preach all the counsel of God's Word - you hedged your preaching.

No offence, but....
you are like a long walk off a short peir.

However, I should be thanking you. You at first caused me some frustration. But, I've actually grown as a result of your comments. So, thank you.

Mikie, I thought you started this thread for the sake of discussion, how can there be legitimate discussion if you take offense every time someone gives you their opinion? How can there be any real understanding if we don't discuss what we believe and why we believe it so that we don't offend you?

I believe there needs to be labels, specific labels; mormons will call themselves Christians (please don't take offense at this and say I'm comparing you to a mormon, I'm not, I'm simply trying to make a point by using an obvious example). We need to understand where each one is coming from, at the same time we can't just blindly agree with you so as not to offend when our convictions are different. Iron sharpens iron (you've stated yourself that you've grown, so why take offense?).

Many years ago I attended an Assembly of God church for quite some time, so I'm not completely ignorant of, nor do I believe I'm purposely blind and hostile to you and your doctrine. There were just things I couldn't reconcile (and I did try) and felt uncomfortable with, nor did I see huge amounts of the fruit of the Spirit in the everyday lives of those who spoke in tongues and were being continually refilled with the Spirit.

Jeff, of course you are right. Being offended is the wrong word, but I'm definitely guilty of feeling defensive. There is a previous thread where what I've stated about the Pentecostal issue took place. I wanted to get away from that here. I don't see the need to rehash the same thing with the same people over and over again.

Your observations about the fruit of the Spirit and the Gifts of the Spirit I concur with. It does throw a dim light on the gifts of the Spirit. That is what is being talked about in 1 Corinthians 13:1. When I pastored the SBC church, one reason I didn't even attempt to deal with the gifts of the Spirit is because I believe the fruit of the Spirit is more important. Without the fruit of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit are made of no value (1 Corinthians 13).

I thank my God that both my salvation and the Gift of the Holy Ghost are not dependent on man. Christianity as just a religion is quite caustic.

I think you asked a legitimate question about the lack of life in churches today.

I believe it all starts with faith, or lack of it.

Everything is built upon faith. James 2 talks about faith without works being dead.

I think looking for my particular gift(s) actually hindered me. I simply didn't seem to have any. At the same time there were things that I was called to do that I couldn't seem to pass off even though I felt very unqualified. Only after I was finally obedient and acted in faith did I experience the strength of God helping me. I believe that further strengthed my faith more than if I had demanded some great gift from God first. For when I am weak, then I am strong (2Cor 12:10b).

I wonder how many other people are waiting for some gift or sign to suddenly appear before they step out in faith in what they may already feel called to do.

Hi Pastor Mikie,

I agree with you in almost all areas of doctrine , bar your positoin on the relevance and use of spiritual gifts today, and going by your previous posts, your position on what is and isnt God pleasing music.

In a nutshell, I believe that a person is saved by grace through a free will decision to believe and accept the Gospel, and is kept saved for eternity despite backslidings...once saved always saved.

I was just making an observation,by using your example,of the fact that a southern Baptist congregation should take 16 months before noticing or caring that a Pentacostal was doing the preaching was an example of a church not grounded in its own doctrine.

My point being that when a church is not grounded in correct doctrine by the study of scripture, they are left open to being "infiltrated" by by erroneous teachings. This leads to confusion and ultimately a weak and dead church.

Here in Australia,Baptist union churches, as opposed to Independent Baptist churches are open to many types of doctrine because they dont want to "offend" anyone. The result being confusion over Bible versions, predestination, loss of salvation, spiritual gifts and other issues that Indedpendant congregations are very sound on in their doctrinal position.

One example is of a local Baptist Union church promoting the preaching of a Pentacostal who claimed to have died, gone to Hell, then Heaven, then come back to life again. His main message, while on the surface was the Gospel, revolved around the christian focussing on listening to God whispering in their ears and only using the Bible as a secondary reference. He also speaks in tongues.

Added to this weakening is the ever more prevelant multi faith service where Catholics and Protestants are finding common ground and fellowship via the practice of speaking in tongues.

I know that you wanted to avoid a discussion on the spiritual gifts, and this is not an effort to reopen one, just an observation that the use of such gifts today, in my opinion, is part and parcel of the "emerging church" and goes hand in hand with many other compromises that add up to weak and dying churches.

FUNDY

I believe one should always seek the Gift-Giver (Jesus) and not the gift. I'm embarrassed when I hear stories of "Pentecostals-gone-mad" (and I've witnessed it myself), but, there are "conservative" Pentecostals out there, and I'm one of them.

Since I was a Baptist who was Baptizes in the Holy Ghost, and I wasn't even looking for it because I didn't believe in it, there are most likely others, too.

I love the Word of God. It is my final authority So, if "the sky" says one thing, and the Bible says another thing, "the sky" is wrong.

Catholics and Pentecostals worshipping together? I had a Catholic come to my church once. He took exception to what I was preaching. He accused me of "Catholic Bashing", and not getting my information from Catholic sources" (I was preaching about communion and didn't even mention 'Catholic'). I asked him for "Genuine Catholic Literature". I took it, and ended up writing a book entitled: "Why I'm Not A Roman Catholic". All I did was compare Catholic Doctrine with the Authorized Bible. At the end of the book, I stated that Roman Catholic Doctrine is NOT Biblical Doctrine, and they are not to be considered a Christian Church.

I believe the message of the Cross is the main doctrine to be preached.I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit but do all speak in tongues St Paul would say?Its plain in 1st Cor 12:28-31 that all people do not recieve this gift or all of these gifts listed.As for Acts chapter 2 its plain that these tongues were different earthly languages.I hear brother Donnie Swaggart say Acts 2:4 is not an earthly tongue uttered but Gods Word says different on down.I dont hold to women being Pastors either the Bible is very clear on this subject also.I hear those that believe the gift of tongues is for everyone and it is a baptism by the Holy Spirit with the evidence with speaking in other Tongues.Some are after the gifts instead of the gift giver.If one can lose their salvation why would the Saviour ever of saved them to begin with?Salvation is of the power of God and if you can undo a work God has performed you are stronger than God.

God bless.
Brother Miller.

Has anyone ever noticed some of the requests made by churches for their ministerial staff? I can't believe some of the "qualifications" being asked for.

The one that was most absurd was for a volunteer position as music minister. Basically, it sounded like they wanted The Apostle Paul and Elvis Presley combined into one superstar to take them to "the next level (whatever that is)".

I've come across a lot of churches that act like they don't need God at all. Everything is covered, taken care of, blah blah blah.

I'm praying for the day when another great awakening will happen in this country; when men like Johnathan Edwards read their sermon by candle-light and men and women grab the pillars of the church begging God to forgive them because the anointing and convicting power of the Holy Ghost is on them.

I don't believe we will ever see another Great Awakening or revival on a national level, or even on a city level. When we compare our times and those times with Revelation 2-3, it is obvious that we are currently in the age of Laodicea** (whereas the Great Awakening fits the era of the Philadelphian church). That's not to say that individuals and individual churches cannot have revival - because I truly believe we can and do experience that on a personal level - just not on a large scale. There is too much junk and confusion in Christendom - even among true born again believers - for this to happen (sorry Bill Bright for bursting your bubble...).

**Matthew 13 and several other places in the NT teach that there will be a time of apostasy and turning from the truth worldwide - among professing believers - before the return of Christ.

No awakening will happen
 

Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Amo 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

All the evidence point to the above prophecy being fulfilled today, in the Laodicean church age.

If you talk to many Christians today, they will tell you that they dont know for sure if they will go to Heaven when they die, but think Jesus is "cool", or "awsome".

A relative of mine attends Bible college but nevertheless rated the quality of a church he had visited not by the quality of the preaching, but by how "awsome" the music (CCM) was.

The professors at the "Baptist" college that he attends use a variety of modern versions and have instilled such a HATE for the KJV into my relative, that he has accused our Church of being cult like.

There can be no wide spread revival when Bible colleges are producing people that are not discussing "what the Bible says" but "what does your version say"

Fundy

My Opinion is we are to busy yolking people to Christian Morality and rules (placing them under law) that we forgot what the early church taught on being filled (possessed for lack of better word) by the Holy Spirit. A Christian needs to know he (or she) has the fullness of the power of God in them at the moment of Faith in Christ finished work onthe cross. once a believer then all he has to do is be possessed by the Holy Spirit (which will make no visable manifestation like laugher or barking ((that's Demonic)) ). and when he comes under temptation, Trial or misgiving taught he must yield to the Holy Spirit Rom. 6:12 ... Yield your members unto God"

life in that manner is so much more victorious than any of the youcan do it rules of many churches today. if your salvation in by faith then your whole life must be lived that way too. it is God who worketh in you to do His will and good pleasure. it is Gods work to make your life correct in this dispensation. to take rules of conduct from other dispensations and adobt them for the church today is wrong.

Get Lewis Sperry Chafer's books, Grace, He that is spiritual, true Evangelism, and others you will find a teaching he learned from Larkins' who learned it from others. nd it is not Calvinism either.

if you would like some send me a private message with your email address and I will be glad to email you some zip copies of his books.

I agree that today's churches are overall dead. I do pray for revival in spite of also agreeing that we are in a "Laodicean" age. God has brought wonderful revival to many a lukewarm church in the past -- that's the whole point, a church is dead and needs to be revived and when His people seek Him for it He has often answered with wonderful revival -- real revival: deep scouring conviction of sin, true and lasting repentance, many conversions and filling with the Holy Spirit. If we are in the very last days, and I believe we are, we are certainly in a pathetic condition to face them. Surely the Lord wants a strong church to do exploits when the worst comes.

I do think that if a church's doctrine is far enough off, if scripture is clearly disobeyed, that God won't bring revival to that church. It's obvious the liberal churches, the Roman church, other apostate churches, aren't going to get revival -- except maybe a version dreamt up by the devil to dazzle the flesh. But many of today's "evangelical" churches are off on many points and may also not expect true revival.

And although I know that there are true Christians among the Pentecostals and Charismatics, I've become convinced that the "gifts" emphasis places them outside the hope of true revival. In the early 90s I was in a charismatic church, had the "gift of tongues," went through a period of painful disillusionment and am still not completely free of its effects, but am now completely convinced that there have been no true manifestations of any of the gifts since the early church, that they are all false -- yes, even when the "gift" is exercised by what I feel sure nevertheless is a true believer. That's a long story and not the subject of this thread, but I thought I should put in that I have some experience of these things.

When God truly comes with power He comes with this scouring of the soul first in conviction of sin. I have been praying for this. First I have been praying that He will give me the fervency and persistence I need simply to pray as I should since I am very weak in prayer, as I think many Christians are these days. Revival praying at some times in the past was done in some cases by the whole eldership of a church plus some members for HOURS ON END, sometimes with fasting. That sort of dedication seems beyond the vast majority of Christians today. I'd love to have it. I've finally begun praying more FOR these things I recognize I lack and the churches lack. I want that conviction of sin, I want that total dedication, I want the river of living water He promised to those who believe Him -- where is it in any of the churches? I don't think there has been a true revival in the world since Wales in 1904, and in America since probably the Great Awakening but at least the Second Great Awakening despite all its tendencies to heresies. (I know some think there are others. J Edwin Orr acknowledges one in the 30s. I'll have to listen again to his discussion of all this, but I'm mostly aware of the counterfeits, which were notorious throughout the 20th century, some still continuing in some charismatic camps.)

But we can always start with ourselves. We always need revival personally whether or not God revives whole churches. So I pray to be revived myself as well as praying for the church to be strengthened, for the building up of God's Kingdom. I don't know if He would still bless whole churches with revival, but I think He would if their members started with a humble willingness to be wrong about many things and a desire that God would search them and convict them of sin and doctrinal error. We can pray for all these things.

Jesus Brought NO labels.I don't care who are you! I know one Man Jesus,as Mediator and my savior,One body which I'm Part of,The Church[Believers in Jesus],One triune God,Elohim!! I believe Holy Spirit is Comforter and comes with Gifts and when rightly exrcised for Glory of God and for Benefits of Church and God's Kingdom;Believers have that Apostolic[I mean Early Apostle's] Power of turning worldUpside Down!
I have witnessed too power of God that doubtless I know it is there.
Examples:
I was repairing mobile phone but I didn't knew what was wrong. I commanded to be healed [made hole/whatever you can term it] in Jesus' name and it Happened!

I have Many times rebuked pains,diseases,...etc and respond in Jesus' Name

Our Brothers Michael Have Many testimonies from their Ministries!
Just Drop at
www.christian-faith.com
www.ministeringdeliverance.com

These have been one of my favorite sites!!
God Bless you!!