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Winman 04-21-2009 03:33 PM

Revelations chapter 12
 
I have a question about Revelations chapter 12, especially verses 3 and 4: And my question is concerning the great number of people who were possessed by devils or unclean spirits in the gospels. In the Old Testament you really do not read accounts of this often, and in the later books of the New Testament you do not hear about it so often as well. But during Jesus's ministry, it seemed to be commonplace. I have wondered if there was a period of time when there was a great number of these devils that has not been before or since, and that perhaps Revelations 12 is describing this.

Rev 3:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Now this chapter starts off describing a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

I believe this to be Israel, as this matches well with Joseph's dream in Gen 37.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

I believe Joseph would be the 12th star, representing the tribes of Israel. So I believe this woman in Revelations 12 represents Israel. Also, she is with child who surely must be Christ.

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

So, perhaps Rev 12:1 through Rev 12:15 represents Israel from before Christ's birth up until Jesus ascends to heaven. Or perhaps verse 15 represents the Rapture, as the words "caught up" might mean?

But in Rev 12:6 we seem to be future to the Great Tribulation

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

After this we see Satan cast down from heaven, where he is very angry with the woman and sends a flood after her. I think the flood probably represents an army, as this term has been used in the OT.

Anyway, lots of writing for a pretty simple question. Do you think these "third part of the stars" that were drawn down by Satan could account for all the devils and unclean spirits during Jesus's ministry?

peopleoftheway 04-21-2009 04:07 PM

Hey Brother

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

I agree that the woman is Israel, as Israel has been mentioned as a woman in scripture quite a few times. I believe that the Crown of Twelve stars represents the 12 tribes.

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

God gave Israel a promise of a Child as a Messiah.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
What a wonderful verse the above is!
All through Jewish history they looked for the coming of that Child. In travail looking for the Birth of the Messiah.

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

After the promise of the Child was given, satan comes seeking to destroy the child, the horns representing kingdoms

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Could this be a representation of satan using Herod to kill the Child by having all the male infants slain. To devour her child as soon as it was Born
Do You mean that stars that his tail drew and cast to earth were the devils angels? Earlier on in Revelation 9 we read that the fifth angel sounds and a star falls (an angel?)

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
This verse is dealing with the resurrection and ascension of Christ and also Prophecy of his 1000 year rule.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Since Christ ascended to the right hand of the Father, the Jews have been scattered, could this verse be describing the divide of 7 years of tribulation, the Time of Jacobs trouble (3.5 years) in which God will judge Israel and Bring the woman back to him.


I see what you are getting at about the stars cast down being the unclean spirits that were so abundant in Christ's ministry.

Bro. Parrish 04-21-2009 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 18490)
Anyway, lots of writing for a pretty simple question. Do you think these "third part of the stars" that were drawn down by Satan could account for all the devils and unclean spirits during Jesus's ministry?

Yes brother I do. This is clarified in verse 9. Ruckman covers all this in great detail in his commentary on Revelation. The first definition in Rev. 1:20 defines stars as angels. Of course those same creatures are still here today as well.

Samuel 04-22-2009 11:19 AM

The third part of the stars in Rev.12, are the fallen Angles Lucifer drew away with him. These are what we call demons, and evil spirits.

I believe the greater amount of demonic activity during Christ first advent, birth to crucifixion. Probably had two parts, one to show Christ authority over satan, and satan's counter attack of sorts on Jesus ministry, which backfired terribly. :)

As someone stated, not much mention was made in the Old Testament, and only a few times following Christ ascension in the New Testament. I have found only a few, very few!, mentions of demons in any of the Early Church writings.

chette777 04-23-2009 07:15 PM

BroPArish remember the Stars in Rev 1:20 represented a holy angel at best not a demon or devil. some men believe they are angels some believe they are men of the churches of Israel during the tribulation not church age churches.

The Book of Revelation is Prophecy and states so three times throughout this book. so all is future it may not represent past events at all i.e. Herod's attempt to kill Jesus.

Winman quote: After this we see Satan cast down from heaven, where he is very angry with the woman and sends a flood after her. I think the flood probably represents an army, as this term has been used in the OT.

What is wrong with taking the scripture literally that it means a flood as in a flood of water? if Israel runs to Petra to hide. it is along a rift if the Devil causes an earthquake that opens it the dead sea will drain right into Petra and then the earth opens its mouth to swallow the water.

if you interpret the flood to be an great army then you would have to interpret the earth as something else other than the earth that helps Israel. Men run into all sorts of problems with the book of Revelation. all the scriptures to Jude these men will take literally but then all of a sudden they get to Revelation and it is all figures, Allegorical and spiritualizations.

Hal Lindsey has done a great job of making it things it may not be at all by imposing past and present events and equipments on the book of Revelation.

Winman 04-23-2009 07:47 PM

Chette

It could be a literal flood of waters, but the term flood has also been used in the OT to represent an army.

Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. 20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

So, if God himself is comfortable calling an army a flood, then I think it is very possible that the flood in Rev 12 is also speaking of an army.

I once heard a preacher say that to understand Revelations, you must know the Old Testament. An example would be the woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

You might wonder who this is until you remember Joseph's dream in Gen 37.

Bro. Parrish 04-24-2009 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 18605)
BroPArish remember the Stars in Rev 1:20 represented a holy angel at best not a demon or devil. some men believe they are angels some believe they are men of the churches of Israel during the tribulation not church age churches.

Eh? I didn't suggest they were demons. I said the first definition in Rev. 1:20 defines stars as angels. This is expounded in the BBC on Revelation.

chette777 04-24-2009 09:04 AM

I only mentioned the angels were Holy and differ from those stars of Heaven found in Rev 12:4 if in fact they are angles. They still could be literal stars.

It is very true the OT plays a very important role in understanding Revelation especially Isa, Daniel, Ezekiel, Joel and Zechariah.

Not to be argumentative but the term flood in Isa 59:19 is not a representation of an physical army of men per se but a description of their enemy. that they will come in like a flood, which means they will be quick and overwhelming. granted representation and description can mean the same thing at times that would be mere simantics.

I believe the flood of Revelation 12 is a literal flood of water to drown them out of Petra. which is quite an impregnable location. read the history of those who tried and failed to get in there when chasing their enemies into Petra. At the moment I am drawing a blank as to which books of history to recommend, but I am sure you can find them.

It is an awesome place a city carved out of the limestone cliffs and has existed for thousands of years.

kevinvw 04-24-2009 02:49 PM

Chette, almost every star we can see out there is as large as or much larger (up to 10 to 20 times the size) of our sun. If Satan drew a third part of those stars to earth with him our entire galaxy would be obliterated. I mean, a third part of the stars is a lot of stars. We are just a blip in the middle of a vast expanse containing trillions (more than likely an understatement) of stars. Also, Jesus told John to write about the past, present, and future.

chette777 04-25-2009 06:11 AM

I agree. and I am not saying they are not angles or demons. Just keeping it literal

Rev1:19 Re 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen (His Gospel of the life of Jesus, the miracles, the resurrection and his Acts experiences) , and the things which are (the things which he was actively seeing and the current churches hence his letters and those things in Rev 1), and the things which shall be hereafter (the prophecy or future events as found laid out from Rev 2-22);

While it is true many stars are larger than our planet there are stars that are rather small. google earth $400 dollar version gives you some great access to up to the moment star searches.


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