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bibleprotector 07-20-2009 01:40 AM

KJB summit
 
The following documents were used at a summit meeting on the King James Bible, in regards to whether or not the King James Bible is "inspired". http://www.gloryimsaved.com/kjb_summit/

I have listed some of the salient points with my own comments, indicating my view that it is a problem to make the original languages a greater authority than the King James Bible.

1. That only the original autographs were inspired.

This is correct, but we cannot imply that the nature of inspiration was lost from copies, or that God’s Word is not present in English.

“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith” (Romans 16:26

2. There are several differences between what was printed in 1769, and the KJB today.

This is a fact, but we must understand this in line with the seven purifications of the King James Bible editions. This does not counter the doctrine that the inspired words have been presented in English.

“The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.” (Psalm 12:6).

3. There are some more words in the King James Bible than what was present in 1611.

This cannot be used to argue that the Bible is in a state of flux, or that the Bible is not retaining the power of inspired words. The reality is that because of printing errors, the need for standardisation of the language, and the requirement of other regularisations, there are some differences in the presentation now, but these are not differences in the actual text and translation of the King James Bible, they are differences between the first printed edition and the present.

4. There are italic words, indicating words added in English to complete the sense, or words not found in all historical attestation.

The completion of the sense cannot be used to argue that the English is different to the inspired original, or that the English is different to the original, because that the perfect sense is given in English. Moreover, the fact that the inspired words are not found in all copies in the original languages is easily able to be used to explain why some phrases are portrayed in italics in the King James Bible, though they be the very words of Scripture.

5. The margins give other senses.

It is false to say that the margins contain renderings which are equal or alternate to the main rendering. It is true that the marginal renderings may be somewhat probable, but what is given as the main text is always more and most probable, and is correct.

6. The translation of the Scripture into other languages.

While the Scripture has rightly been translated into other languages from the originals historically, as may be said about our King James Bible, it would be imprudent to argue that foreign translations today should be made from the originals, when the King James Bible gives in a gathered form the exact text and sense of the Scripture, which cannot be found in any single extant copy of the originals. This is besides arguments in favour of having people learn English to get the King James Bible rather than emphasising new foreign translations.

“Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:20).

The very commandments of Jesus must be taught to the nations. Where a translation is sufficently doing so, it has been commendable, but the observance of all things requires all the words and all the sense. Thus, for the entering into the full counsel of God, it is best for people of all nations to come, in time, to use the King James Bible.

7. False standards versus the true.

a. No translation is inspired, but there are no copies of the originals today which match exactly what was inspired. It is not unbiblical to claim that the King James Bible presents the inspired Scripture. Edward Hills said the KJB was an independent variety of the Textus Receptus. It is, in fact, the final form of the Received Text.

b. The “authenticity” of the King James Bible is not merely measured in regards to its faithfulness to the present knowledge of the original languages. In fact, the authenticity of the KJB is seen and understood by observing its internal characteristics, that it fully validates itself as no other translation does, and by its external characteristics, that is, the providences surrounding its origin and history.

c. The English does not contain things which darken the sense, nor are their nuances of the originals which are “absent” from the King James Bible. This may be studied out on several grounds, such as, in the right dividing of words, such as the various meanings of one word (e.g. “wine”), on the distinctions between similar, yet differing words (e.g. "glistering" versus "glittering", "vail" versus "veil"), on the peculiar designs in the English, such as alliterations, word play (e.g. “morrow” in Zephaniah 3:3, the use of “well” at John 14:17) and King Jamesque readings, (e.g. “God will provide himself” at Genesis 22:8).

bibleprotector 07-20-2009 02:10 AM

From:

http://www.hacalumni.com/DavidHoffman.shtml

Quote:

The argument is one edition of the King James Bible said "he went into the city," and other editions said, "she went into the city." This purported problem is found in Ruth 3:15. This was one of my two questions that was not answered. My question was, "Which word is wrong (he or she) because the context reveals that BOTH went into the city (Ruth 4:1).
A better answer is that it is very likely that the translators had "she" at Ruth 3:15, but that the printers mistakenly set "he" in the first printing, which was immediately corrected in subsequent printings.

Our aim is not to try and recover or work out what the translators wrote, but to see that there has been a purification of the presentation, which does not ever contradict the spirit of the translators, nor does it constitute an actual change in the text and translation of the King James Bible.

On the other side, it is extremely dangerous to attempt to use the differences in historical editions of the KJB as proof that the KJB is somehow unstable or fallible. It is not.

Just_A_Thought 07-20-2009 06:10 AM

BP,

Did you go to the Summit or just commenting of the article you linked to? I am wanting to hear the Summit but they still have not posted it on the HAC site. I will keep waiting unless you have a link to a place that it is already posted.

Steven Avery 07-20-2009 11:19 AM

Hi Folks,

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector
1. That only the original autographs were inspired. This is correct, but we cannot imply that the nature of inspiration was lost from copies, or that God’s Word is not present in English.
“But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith” (Romans 16:26).

If only the autographs "were inspired", if all inspiration is past, then nobody has had a fully inspired Bible ever .. in any time, language or place.

The following is present tense .. "is given"

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Scripture is given .. today .. and is profitable .. today.

I simply do not understand the reluctance of these summit folks and others to simply declare:

"By the grace of God, I have the 100% pure word of God in my hands, inspired and preserved. The Holy Bible, the Authorized Version, the King James Bible. Readable by the ploughman, and even the scholar. Thank you Lord Jesus for your perfect word."

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Brother Tim 07-20-2009 11:56 AM

Virtual Summit
 
I Declare:
"By the grace of God, I have the absolutely pure words of God in my hands, inspired, preserved, complete and perfect to the very jot and tittle. Known commonly as The Holy Bible, the Authorized Version, and the King James Bible, it is readable by the school child, common man, and all who seek the truth with a pure heart. Thank You, Heavenly Father, for giving to me Your perfect words."

George 07-20-2009 12:29 PM

Re: "KJB summit"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 24450)
Hi Folks,

If only the autographs "were inspired", if all inspiration is past, then nobody has had a fully inspired Bible ever .. in any time, language or place.

The following is present tense .. "is given"

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Scripture is given .. today .. and is profitable .. today.

I simply do not understand the reluctance of these summit folks and others to simply declare:

"By the grace of God, I have the 100% pure word of God in my hands, inspired and preserved. The Holy Bible, the Authorized Version, the King James Bible. Readable by the ploughman, and even the scholar. Thank you Lord Jesus for your perfect word."

Shalom,
Steven Avery


Aloha brother Steve,

It's good to see you back. :) I'm with you 100% on this issue. What (in the world) were these men thinking about - calling for a "KJB Summit"? :confused:

In answer to your question - It’s called “RESPECT OF PERSONS”, and there is so much of it going on in “Christian” circles today (and if you will notice lately – more and more of it here on the Forum also) that it’s enough to make a genuine Bible believer “gag”! :mad:


Quote:

Oh! Have you “heard” brother so-and-so’s up-to-date sermons on CD? :confused: Did you “see” brother anointed-one's latest video? :confused: Why don’t you “check out” brother what’s-his-face’s latest book? :confused: It’s no longer: “What saith the Scripture”? Today it’s what does “DOCTOR know-it-all” have to say about the issue? :tsk: This is the “CURSE” of Western Christianity! It’s all about Christian Celebrities, and God and His Holy word are taking 2nd., 3rd., 4th., or even 5th. place! :eek:
“Christian Celebrities” have become the “rage” and practically everyone today is following some man! Can you imagine a bunch of so-called Bible believers getting together and holding a “JKB Summit”? I was sent an “invitation” to that summit on June 30th. What did these men hope to accomplish? Were they looking for “UNANIMITY” on the “Which Bible” issue? Or is this just one more official “RELIGIOUS COUNCIL” (made up of the “professionals” & “experts”, i.e. “scribes” & “Pharisees”) that is going to “officially” decide this issue (for the rest of us genuine Bible believers) by “officially” declaring what is “inspired” and what is NOT “inspired”! {I care not what the “religious shysters” have to say. Their “official pronouncements” hold about as much water with me as the latest “papal encyclical”! “. . . . be not faithless, but believing”}

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Proverbs 24:23 These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.

Proverbs 28:21 To have respect of persons is not good: for for a piece of bread that man will transgress.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Proverbs 29:25 The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.

wingwiper 07-20-2009 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 24450)
Hi Folks,

If only the autographs "were inspired", if all inspiration is past, then nobody has had a fully inspired Bible ever .. in any time, language or place.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

It kills me how those who claim only the "originals" were inspired can not ever show me, point out to me :fencing:where in my King James it is not inspired. Of course it does look like a piece of tattered papyrus.

I'm no scholar............reading here alot of you guyz are far more knowledgeable than me, yet I would suggest any person who is not under a Final Authority is a dangerous person (handling God's Word)............why? Because he's in charge, any decision he/she makes will be made for his/her own self--- not based on God's word.

A KJB Summit................? For what it's already been settled. If you take the first letter and the last letter off SIN--- that pretty well describes it.

Yea hath God said............

bibleprotector 07-21-2009 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just_A_Thought (Post 24436)
BP,

Did you go to the Summit or just commenting of the article you linked to? I am wanting to hear the Summit but they still have not posted it on the HAC site. I will keep waiting unless you have a link to a place that it is already posted.

I know you are anti-KJBO. I also know that you are trying to "win us over" to your position, which you confess is "anti-KJBO'ism". Source: http://www.fundamentalforums.com/bib...ollessons.html

Anyway, the KJB summit videos are here, as you already know:

http://hylesanderson.edu/?page_id=2356

bibleprotector 07-21-2009 10:14 AM

SOME ISSUES WITH DR BOB MARSHALL’S
THIRD SESSION OF THE HAC KJB SUMMIT JULY 2009

1. Marshall said, in his opening remarks, “It seems logical to me that if God is going to get the Word that brings salvation to everybody, then it has to be in a host of languages that are quite innumerable”. “Sometimes we elevate the English language as though it is the premier container [language] to take the Word of God to this world, no, it ought to be in hundreds and thousands of witnesses all across the world, and all across the globe.”

The more logical position is to see that, in time, God is providentially raising up one global language, and has one principle and exemplar Bible, the King James Bible, made common and standard for all the world. This would mean not explicitly emphasising other translations, which do, on examination, differ to the King James Bible.

This may be seen by a variety of verses, such as,

“So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.” (Isaiah 59:19).

“All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.” (Isaiah 18:3).

“For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.” (Isaiah 28:11).

“For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.” (Zephaniah 3:9).

“Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.” (Isaiah 34:16).

2. “Those 227 years [from Wycliffe to the King James Bible] were filled with translating and editing and revising and perfecting and polishing the English text”.

Since there is no direct lineage between the translation of Wycliffe, and the beginning of the seven major Protestant English translations starting from Tyndale, it is much better argued, and consistent with the translators’ own words, as well as the facts concerning the direct history of the King James Bible, that there is an accord between the historical fact of seven major Protestant English translations and the prophecy in Psalm twelve concerning the seven times of purification. This therefore excludes Wycliffe’s Version, and shortens the particular timescale involved.

3. The King James Bible was considered was a revision of former Protestant English translations, as the translators themselves stated, “but let us rather bless God from the ground of our heart for working this religious care in him to have the translations of the Bible maturely considered of and examined. For by this means it cometh to pass, that whatsoever is sound already, (and all is sound for substance in one or other of our editions, and the worst of ours far better than their authentick Vulgar) the same will shine as gold more brightly, being rubbed and polished; also, if any thing be halting, or superfluous, or not so agreeable to the original, the same may be corrected, and the truth set in place.” And, “No cause therefore why the word translated should be denied to be the word, or forbidden to be current, notwithstanding that some imperfections and blemishes may be noted in the setting forth of it.”

Marshall states that the translations had error in them, and then asks, “If you consider each of the predecessors to the KJ Bible — Tyndale, Coverdale, Geneva, Matthew’s, Great ... or the Bishops’ Bible — as ‘inspired’, preserved English words of God, then why would they need to be changed or updated, edited and corrected by many revisions and editions, yet they were considered the word of God?”

This is the exact question which someone who holds exclusively to the King James Bible should be able to answer:

i. The Word of God was sufficiently given in the various texts of the six major Protestant English Bibles,
ii. The Word of God was sufficiently translated, that is, sufficient of the true sense was given in English,
iii. The text was, overall, refined or purified generally successively,
iv. The translation was, overall, refined or purified generally successively,
v. Any and all editions of these versions had presentation issues,
vi. The King James Bible was the culmination of the purification of the text, translation, taken from a holistic view of these former works, and supersuccessionary, and
vi. The King James Bible, when first printed, presented the final text and translation of the Word of God in English, set forth for all the world, despite the presentational issues in the English in the first printing of 1611.

Clearly, another issue is here. Inspiration is a one off process that occurred in the initial writing of the Scripture. The inspired words were then retained by God’s providential preservation. Thus, any time men of God, in the providential continuum, translated, they were handling the inspired words.

The point is that the King James Bible men are unique as translators — they were not inspired — but they were the vessels of God’s preservation to be able to gather correctly the entire text of Scripture perfectly, that is, to form the exact version of the entire Bible, which matches word for word what was inspired in 66 books (i.e. piecemeal). And, the same men were able to render properly, sense for sense, for the first and only time ever in history, by virtue of a translation no less, sense for sense, the exact meaning of the words that were first written in the Autographs, giving them in one Bible which would be in a language which would become global. Thus, the King James Bible translators were not inspired. They were not making an inspired translation. They were, in fact, re-amassing exactly into one exemplar and standard form what would be the supersuccessionary singular Bible for all the world in the latter days. (The inspired words came via copies, and appear in the KJB.)

The KJB men were able to get it right simply because in God’s plan they were the right people at the right time in the right place with the right materials who were able to collectively judge rightly what actually is the Word of God. We have the same Bible today as was first printed in 1611, that is, the same text and translation.

Thus, not only can we say that the inspired Scripture was sufficiently present in the King James Bible, which has been enough to call any proper and normal copy or translation of the Scripture “the Word of God”, but that it has the very words of God exactly, thus, is the inspired Scripture exactly, fully, utterly and totally.

4. Marshall claims, “the translators ... weren’t flawless and didn’t consider themselves above revision”.

The word “revision” has two meanings. Either it could mean revision of text and translation, or revision in regards to the English presentation. It is a fact that there is no explicit reference by the translators which regards the King James Bible as “flawed”, nor that they allow in any way, revision of the text and translation.

In fact, the revisionary work that has taken place in regards to the King James Bible, whether by the translators themselves, or other learned editors, never really amounts to a change in the underlying text and translation, and on the few very minor occasions where there appears to be a difference which may also be observed in variations in the underlying original language editions, it is quite easy and simple to argue at least most of the times that such a variation is due to a printing mistake in the first edition.

5. Marshall claims, “They did not think they were creating a new ‘final authority’ in English to replace the Greek and Hebrew from which all translation should conform.”

There are several points here.

A. The translators did see the King James Bible as final.

They write, “that out of the Original Sacred Tongues, together with comparing of the labours, both in our own, and other foreign Languages, of many worthy men who went before us, there should be one more exact Translation of the holy Scriptures into the English Tongue”.

They must have viewed their work ass one more, implying last, and exact, meaning that nothing further can be done. The phrase “one more exact translation” must mean finality in both execution of making of Bibles, and finality in the exactness of the message communicated in English.

This led them to state, “And now at last, by the mercy of God, and the continuance of our labours, it being brought unto such a conclusion, as that we have great hopes that the Church of England shall reap good fruit thereby”.

The good fruit would not be reaped from Hebrew and Greek learning, but from the knowledge of God’s Word in English.

B. There is no final authority in the Hebrew and in the Greek.

There is not one extant copy of the Hebrew OT, nor Greek NT which matches what was first inspired. Moreover, every edition of the Textus Receptus differs to every other one. Thus, there is no final perfect standard exemplar copy of the Scripture in Greek, or in Hebrew today.

However, there is one in English. “Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read” (Isaiah 34:16a).

The King James Bible is supersuccessionary to the Hebrew and Greek.

Isa 28:19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
Isa 28:20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.


C. The King James Bible, while not explicitly seen to be supersuccessionary to all translations, was not prohibited from, or excluded from being so, in line with God’s providence.

6. Marshall claims that the KJB translators “considered the Hebrew of the OT and the Greek of the NT to be the Final Authority”.

In fact, they considered received Scripture, and therefore what was preserved of what was inspired, to be final authority, and went beyond the confines of what could be seen in Hebrew and Greek, also considering other versions, commentaries, testimonies, translations, etc. This is because the Scripture RECEIVED was Scripture indeed, nor merely a narrow dereference to the words of Hebrew and Greek only.

True translation is to bring the fulness of what was there in those original languages into the final form, English, so that the English-speaker may confidently rely upon the Word of God in English without ever having to reference those former tongues again. This is because God was able to, by His Providence, supply the full Word in English, and is not so weak that He is shackled to the original languages yet, nor that we should only find full confidence if we come to understand the original tongues. This would manifestly be a blight against the very principles of the Reformation, that is, to have God’s very Word in the common tongue, furthermore having, in the Restitution of the Church in the latter days, God’s Word in English for all, unto all, and one.

7. Marshall claims that the marginal references contain “alternate renderings” and “suggestions” which he interprets to “suggest that they as translators were not the final authority”.

The problem here is that the margins are not alternate, nor equal, nor do they indicate the actual uncertain state of the Scripture as presented in the King James Bible. This can be clearly seen on two lines:

First, that the translators chose which rendering to put in the main text, and what else to put in the margin, delineating clearly between their collective judgment as to what was Scripture, and what was not as fit.

Second, that since that time, the tacit and avowed acceptance of millions of Christians and scholars has been vastly in favour of the translators’ decisions both in general, and if taken on a case by case examination, that what stands as the main reading is the true, and what stands in the margin is simply not the best, rightest or most agreeable.

8. Marshall states, “It is obvious that the men who made up the Hampton Court” — actually, that was a location, and a conference held there years before in regards to Puritanism, so it should say, “translation committees” — “as well as previous editors and translators, felt that the doctrine of preservation was not an event but a constant journey pursuing a complete container (English language) for the words of God.”

While preservation and received tradition are ongoing, the making of the English Bible is finite. Psalm twelve expressly states “seven times”. This is a finite process with a fixed result.

There were seven major English Protestant Bibles. There cannot be any more.

Likewise, the purification of the King James Bible was limited; limited both in scope and in application. The correcting of typographical errors, or the standardising of English was a finite process which resulted in a particular conclusion.

There is no ongoing evolution of the English Bible.

To suggest such is to be dangerously close to the modernist side of the Bible Version issue.

If the English Bible is subject to some sort of evolution of the English langauge, then God is weak, natural forces are in control and error is rampent.

If the English Bible is subject to the originals, the problem is that the originals are actually in a state of flux, because the actual form of them is unknown and subject to endless controversy. There is no real authority anywhere today which can change the King James Bible, not even to alter one jot or one tittle in our present edition.

9. “Or, did He give us a firm foundation of inerrant and infallible words in the original languages and say, ‘Here, take these, and get it into every language’?”

This implies that the Scripture is not inerrant nor infallible in the King James Bible, and that one of the varying copies and editions in the original languages is the standard form of the Scripture. The problem is that no such copy in the originals is identified today as the final authority.

10. Marshall argues that the printers made mistakes, and implies on that basis that the translators of 1611 must have made mistakes. (Marshall certainly does not state that the translators got it 100% right.)

While the 1604–1611 translators were not inspired, and that the King James Bible was not made by inspiration, it is true that it is inerrant and infallible. This is because the words are inerrant and infallible. The translators were merely men, yet it was such, that by God’s providence, they were able to get the text and translation right, as a seemingly natural process, as an outworking of God’s providential preservation, not as a new “supernatural” inspiration.

11. Marshall quotes the unbeliever Scrivener on the editions of the King James Bible, as though God’s providence has failed to keep the King James Bible through its history, so that “oversight and negligence” are manifest, and that the King James Bible in its subsequent history from 1611 was merely the work of men, exhibiting numerous errors, “from which no work of man can be entirely free”.

This is an entirely false and unbelieving view of the history of the King James Bible, because if God had managed to preserve Scripture to 1611, and give His Word in English by then, surely He would have preserved it since!

In reality, the proper line of editions of the KJB have served as the method by which God, in His Providence, has worked to free the presentation of KJB editions from errors and impurities.

12. Marshall discusses translational variations while discussing typographical errors in the King James Bible.

These are two entirely separate issues. A mistake in printing does not mean that the translators of 1611 were also subject to mistakes in their collective judgment.

13. Marshall speaks of the adherence to the standard, the Hebrew and the Greek, in regards to looking at editions of the KJB.

It is evident that when an editor worked on the King James Bible, that he did not regard the Hebrew and Greek as the final authority, but viewed the received tradition, compared various major editions, regarded the first printed edition, perhaps the translators’ master if it were available, but there is no explicit mention or evidence that the original languages were looked to in this regard, except for the work on the italics and margins.

14. Marshall claims that errors of the press began to accumulate in Barker’s early editions.

In reality, even under Barker, corrections were continually being made, both in disregarding errors which crept into particular editions, and also general work which improved upon what was printed in 1611, though with other errors being made in the new editions. These errors were disregarded in further editions. Thus, the King James Bible was not in a hopeless case from 1611 to 1629, even though Barker made mistakes.

15. Marshall claims that two translators were involved in the 1629 Cambridge Edition.

In fact, it is unknown who the editors of the 1629 Cambridge Edition were.

16. Marshall, in obviously following David Norton’s material, claims that “shamefacedness” is different to “shamefastness” at 1 Timothy 2:9. He then says that he does not think that “shamefacedness” is right.

In reality, they are two spellings of the same word. This can be shown from Johnson's Dictionary, which gives "shamefacedness", even when quoting sources (e.g. Shakespeare) which spelt "shamefastness". The modern distinguishing of meanings cannot be applied unhistorically to the King James Bible.

Marshall actually corrects the King James Bible by willingly rejecting the received tradition.

17. Marshall says, “If you have a Bible that is inerrant, if your English translation is inerrant, that means there was no pressmen ever to misspell a word”.

This is a false leap of logic. Inerrancy of the Scripture, along with inerrancy of the text and translation in English, is entirely different from having a scrupulously correct printing of the Bible.

In reality, through the process of purification, it has been possible to arrive at a knowledge of a certain and finite English text-form of the King James Bible which is free from press errors.

Arriving at a printed text free from typographical errors has first required arriving at the final and pure edition of the King James Bible. The Pure Cambridge Edition.

Therefore, a translation can be error-free because printing errors are not translation errors, and in the case of the King James Bible, we now have the King James Bible free from press errors. Moreover, the same translation is apparent throughout all editions, the present final one being the same as the first one of 1611.

18. He says, “You cannot say a translation is error-free as long as you inject human instrumentality into the production of it.”

This is entirely false. The King James Bible was a correct translation, despite the printers making mistakes.

It is false to imply that printing errors necessitates that the translators also made errors.

It is false to imply that the translation cannot be known because of typographical presentational issues, or to imply that a translation is marred (irreparably) by printers’ errors.

Translation (the work of the 1611 men) and the printing (the work of printers) are two separate things. The press has not had the power to destroy or stop the work of the 1611 men.

If the press did wrongly, or if editors persist with something wrong, it does potentially cause there to be an impediment. However, God has worked to ensure that no impediment actually can justly stand.

Consider the case of the word “Spirit” in Matthew 4:1. The issue with an impure edition of the King James Bible has not been enough to stop the reality that “Spirit” is both meant by the translators, and is the proper form today (Cambridge). In other words, no matter what, in time, God manifested providentially through the providential preservation by editors that the correct presentation of the King James Bible would be made manifest.

While such variations do not, in their historical context, actually mar the meaning of the Scripture, there is obviously a problem where in the present time people argue for the impure, or depart from purity, which requires the rejecting of the received tradition, and departing from what has the signal providences concerning its legitimacy.

19. Marshall says he disagrees with the statement that “the current edition of the King James Version is, as far as the text is concerned, IDENTICAL to the intended original edition.”

Since the King James Bible has not undergone changes in the underlying version text and translation, then what was intended in 1611 is clearly the same today, regardless of typographical errors in the first printing of 1611, the standardisation of the English language, and other editorial regularisation.

Thus, we do have an identical text and translation. The differences in presentation, of course, mean that our presentation is not identical. But we cannot confuse the work of the translators with the issues of presentation (even though the translators themselves probably spelt words as differently as the 1611 men did.)

20. Marshall claims that if we reject the originals, then we have no standard to judge future editions of the King James Bible.

The truth is that God has supplied a standard edition of the King James Bible, by which all other editions may be judged. While it has not been wrong for people to check the correctness of the King James Bible to the original languages, there is no need to continue that trend, on the grounds that there is no final exemplar copy or known extant standard in the originals of either Testament, and that there has been so much vindication of the King James Bible, that it is no longer needful to be on such ground. Moreover, the making of proper revised editions of the King James Bible has long ago come to its conclusion, that is, fulfilling a sevenfold timescale according to Psalm 12, so that we have our final standard edition in our hands. There is no particular need to defer to the originals, or to present understanding of the originals, in regards to our trust and certainty in the Scripture, to the power of Scripture to save, and to any other work of Scripture in the coming hours, for that the Word of God is being made manifest to the world in a supersuccessionary form means the laying aside of former things.

Just as when Enoch was translated, so that nothing of Enoch was left behind, so we can see the Word of God translated, as we have it in our final worldwide Bible, does not in any way direct us to look back to the originals from whence it formerly abode. It is not beyond the seas or in the depths, nor hidden away, but manifestly in English that we might see it, hear it and believe it.

Closing remarks. Marshall does correctly show that there are indeed revisions of the King James Bible, but grossly understates the numbers, there are something like 4000 apparent word differences between 1611 and the present time. None of these differences constitutes a real change in the KJB.

bibleprotector 07-21-2009 08:59 PM

In the fourth session, a visibly nervous Ken Schaap, tries to explain that (various of) the differences in editions of the King James Bible are “translation changes”, and that changes are the results of “retranslations”. He makes many mistakes, both in his manner and in the facts which he gives, indicating that he is not confident on the topic, and bewraying the fact that he does not really know what he is speaking about.

He makes some astonishing false statements, based on his ignorance, such as, “Therefore, what the translators did in 1611 was not complete, because it was missing 47 words”. In reality, the version text and translation were complete, and the translators cannot be charged with producing an inferior work. He makes the erroneous assumption that what is printed in 1611 must be the translators’ intended work as far as every last detail of the presentation. But since it is clear that the translators did not intend nor were the authors of the printing errors, already it can be pointed out that the translators cannot be summarily be blamed for doing an incomplete work.

He argues: 1. Words were added later. 2. Therefore the 1611 translators’ work was incomplete. 3. Therefore the translators were not inspired. This is entirely an incorrect line of reasoning. The reality is that the translators were not inspired, but that has nothing to do with the purification of the presentation in later editions. The truth is that the translators got the text and translation right, and that the kind of work that was required in the King James Bible was in regards to the accurate printing, standardised language and regularised presentation (e.g. italics and other consistencies). In short, presentation issues cannot be used to accuse the translators of making a wrong translation! This is because it is possible to argue that a right translation was made, without any requirement for “inspiration” to ensure it. Moreover, if the translation was right, there is no need anymore to uphold the original languages as an authority, whereas if we do not yet have or know whether or not we have the Word of God exactly in English, then (just as the modern versionists) we must be dependant on the error-based claims of those who emphasise the original languages.

Just_A_Thought 07-22-2009 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector (Post 24497)
I know you are anti-KJBO. I also know that you are trying to "win us over" to your position, which you confess is "anti-KJBO'ism". Source: http://www.fundamentalforums.com/bib...ollessons.html

Anyway, the KJB summit videos are here, as you already know:

http://hylesanderson.edu/?page_id=2356

True...

True again but not so much here. People here simply get mad when I chat with them on the subject.

The summit video is now out. It was not when I asked you. You were making comments on the summit as if you listened to it in detail and I wanted to know where you heard it.

I am not sure why you feel I am your enemy because I am anti-KJVO. I am a Christian and do not feel you are my enemy. Seems like we could both agree to disagree on the subject and move on.

God Bless!!!!!

Brother Tim 07-22-2009 08:09 AM

The chief problem with trying to unite KJBOs and anti-KJBOs* in any form of fellowship is that neither side views the other as equals. Just as you, Just-A-Thought, and others can come to this site and then return to FFF and chortle among yourselves at the foolish ignorance of us KJBOs, we KJBOs can go to FFF and observe your commiserating.

* The term anti-KJBO, which title you claim, is by definition an adversarial position. I have those with whom I can have a level of fellowship who do not believe the KJB is the only Bible to use, yet they do not consider my position to be extreme. Instead, they see me as intense in my faith, and at a level that they themselves have not ventured. We can banter quite well about the subject, but there is a degree of respect. With the anti-KJBO, the whole agenda is to discredit the KJBOs position. I prefer to call you an adversary, for "enemy" is too stark a term, but we cannot find much room for fellowship since there is little on which to unite.

George 07-22-2009 09:23 AM

Re: "KJB summit"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 24560)
The chief problem with trying to unite KJBOs and anti-KJBOs* in any form of fellowship is that neither side views the other as equals. Just as you, Just-A-Thought, and others can come to this site and then return to FFF and chortle among yourselves at the foolish ignorance of us KJBOs, we KJBOs can go to FFF and observe your commiserating.

* The term anti-KJBO, which title you claim, is by definition an adversarial position. I have those with whom I can have a level of fellowship who do not believe the KJB is the only Bible to use, yet they do not consider my position to be extreme. Instead, they see me as intense in my faith, and at a level that they themselves have not ventured. We can banter quite well about the subject, but there is a degree of respect. With the anti-KJBO, the whole agenda is to discredit the KJBOs position. I prefer to call you an adversary, for "enemy" is too stark a term, but we cannot find much room for fellowship since there is little on which to unite.

Aloha Brother Tim,

:amen: I am in complete agreement with you on this brother! :amen:

The are many Christians out there who do not believe, as I do, in the King James Bible as being the perfect, holy, infallible, inspired, and without error word of God; but with whom I can (and do ) have a certain amount of fellowship around our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. However, those "Christians" who take an ADVERSARIAL POSITION AGAINST the HOLY BIBLE are a "different matter" all together!

I refuse to have anything to do with any "Christian" who ADDS TO; SUBTRACTS FROM; CHANGES; or CORRECTS the Holy Bible (especially those "Christians" who choose to ATTACK and DEMEAN it)! In addition, I do not believe that I am under any obligation to extend the right hand of fellowship to these kinds of "Christians", and neither does 2Timothy 2:22-26 "apply" to these kinds of people:
Quote:

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

But rather 1Timothy 5:50; 2Timothy 4:2; Titus 1:13; and Titus 2:15 are the appropriate "response" to troublemakers and those "Christians" who would divide the brethren over this issue.
Quote:

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Titus 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

This is why I do not "join" their Forums or engage in a "dialogue" or a "debate": with them. They have NO interest in the TRUTH - there is NO EDIFICATION; and here is NO PROFIT! :eek:

Quote:

Proverbs 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.
Sad to say - this is the result of a Humanistic upbringing, training, and education ("Secular" or "Christian"). It's called "FAITHLESSNESS", and there is NO known scientific, medical, or psychological "CURE" for it, unless Almighty God Himself "intervenes" in the life of these proud and arrogant individuals! {Only "BELIEF" in God's PROMISE and ABILITY to "PRESERVE" His Holy words will do.}
Quote:

Proverbs 11:2 When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.

Proverbs 14:3 In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

Proverbs 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Do these people really think that God will not hold them accountable for their words or their conduct in regards to His Holy words? :confused:

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Just_A_Thought 07-22-2009 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 24560)
The chief problem with trying to unite KJBOs and anti-KJBOs* in any form of fellowship is that neither side views the other as equals. Just as you, Just-A-Thought, and others can come to this site and then return to FFF and chortle among yourselves at the foolish ignorance of us KJBOs, we KJBOs can go to FFF and observe your commiserating.

* The term anti-KJBO, which title you claim, is by definition an adversarial position. I have those with whom I can have a level of fellowship who do not believe the KJB is the only Bible to use, yet they do not consider my position to be extreme. Instead, they see me as intense in my faith, and at a level that they themselves have not ventured. We can banter quite well about the subject, but there is a degree of respect. With the anti-KJBO, the whole agenda is to discredit the KJBOs position. I prefer to call you an adversary, for "enemy" is too stark a term, but we cannot find much room for fellowship since there is little on which to unite.

I will not deny that I defend the anti-KJVO position. I do but I never call you extremists or thing of that nature. I know good Christians who are KJVO. I do not hate or mock KJVOs either. So I see no reason for a lack of fellowship. /i argue my point on the internet but if I knew you in person and your stand I would not even bring it up. I only fight it on the net.

George 07-22-2009 12:10 PM

Re: " KJB summit"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector (Post 24497)
I know you are anti-KJBO. I also know that you are trying to "win us over" to your position, which you confess is "anti-KJBO'ism". Source: http://www.fundamentalforums.com/bib...ollessons.html

Anyway, the KJB summit videos are here, as you already know:

http://hylesanderson.edu/?page_id=2356

Aloha brother,

I want to thank you for providing us with the information about this so-called "KJB Summit". It should have been called the "Hyles/Anderson Summit on why "we" do NOT accept the King James Bible as our "FINAL AUTHORITY"! :tsk:

I have endured 5 of the 10 videos posted and I still stand by my earlier comments (i.e. this Thread - Post #6) about "respect of persons"; "Christian Celebrities"; and "Faithlessness".

This so-called KJB "Summit" was nothing more than a Hyles/Anderson "SHOW" from start to finish! The whole "SHAM" was put on by Hyles/Anderson people and was "CONTROLLED BY" Hyles/Anderson people from beginning to end. {In addition to reviewing the first 5 videos, I reviewed a portion of the last Video ("Questions & Answers") and some of their answers (or refusal to answer a question) were meager, obtuse and pitiful, to say the least!}:(

A real genuine "KJB Summit" would have had men from "both sides" (or possibly "all sides") of the issue, instead of a "lopsided" presentation controlled by only one "party" to the debate.:confused:

Those men (that I viewed and listened to) who made their presentations judge according to "appearance". Their "measuring stick" in regards to "faithfulness" to God is: HOW MANY SOULS DO YOU "WIN" for the Lord Jesus Christ, and HOW BIG A WORK HAVE YOU BUILT (for the Lord - of course)! It's a "NUMBERS" & "SIZE" game [John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.] and any one that does not "measure up" to their own personal private convictions are dismissed out of hand. :(

NONE of the speakers (that I viewed and listened to) have ONE SINGLE FINAL AUTHORITY (ONE BOOK -that they can hold in their hands). They all USE the King James Bible (for "results"); and they all give LIP-SERVICE to the King James Bible (or they would be fired), but not one of the men that I listened to demonstrated a LOVE for the King James Bible! :tsk:

All of the men (that I viewed and listened to) ELEVATE the "GREEK" language and the "HEBREW" language as being SUPERIOR to the "ENGLISH" language - when it comes to the "words" of God. And because of their belief in the "original" languages, they are postulating that the "original languages are to be "PREFERRED" OVER the English - even though only a very small minority of Christians today can read and understand the "original languages"! {Please see my Post: http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...2&postcount=33}

This "Summit" is a SOPHISTICATED and SUBTLE endeavor (carried out by the "educated intelligentsia" within "Christian circles") to UNDERMINE an ordinary Bible believer's faith in the Holy Bible! The only "outcome" that I can see as a result of this so-called "Summit" is more "DIVISION" amongst those Christians who call themselves Fundamentalists.

This "KJB Summit" has solved nothing about the "Which Bible" issue. There was NO EDIFICATION or PROFIT from this "Summit". And, although I make NO CLAIM to being a Prophet, I believe this so-called "KJB Summit" spells THE END for Hyles/Anderson College as far as upholding the holy and precious words of God, as found in our King James Bible. {Apostasy always begins with the "intelligentsia", i.e. the 'leaders" in the church. Today it's the "pastors" and "teachers" - in the Lord Jesus' time it was the "Pharisees" and the "scribes" - SAME BUNCH, just different names!}

The DESTRUCTIVE effects of this so-called "JKB Summit" will reverberate throughout the Fundamentalist Baptist churches throughout America - WHAT WERE THESE PEOPLE THINKING OF? :confused: WHAT DID THEY HOPE TO ACCOMPLISH? :eek:

2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word ofGod: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

Psalms 33:4
For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Brother Tim 07-22-2009 02:57 PM

I have long thought that it would be a good idea to bring together men who have completely and vocally stood on the perfection of the KJB to establish a standard from which churches who sought to answer questions on the issue but were without the necessary leadership, or whose leaders were limited in their exposure to the issue could draw information.

There are true KJBO leaders throughout the faithful who are not generally known as famous names, but have the knowledge to establish a "clearing-house" for seekers of the truth. The sad problem with bringing together well-known people is often there is a clash for position. If the leaders were all of some equal footing, that is, none carried widely recognized names, then perhaps the "pride" of popularity might be diminished.

I have often mused that if there could be a "summit" of such men known here, and others who don't post here but carry the torch of faithfulness, then perhaps the mutual knowledge could develop into a basis for the defense of the supremacy of the KJB. So much time is spent repeating arguments in areas of contention, such as "strain at" vs "strain out", "Easter", number variations, etc. It would be very beneficial if a central database could be established of the Biblical answers to these challenges. Many books have been written, but often differences in explanation lead to confusion.

The so-called "KJB Summit" addressed in this thread did not reach the goal.

Is this too much of a dream to be a reality?

Fredoheaven 07-22-2009 05:07 PM

I've seen and heard Dr. Jack Schaap and other big names from the fundamentalist circles as they preached here in the Philippines at Christian Bible Baptist Church, San Pedro Laguna Philippines. Thousands of Christians arrived just to hear Dr. Jack Schaap. I too, have been thrilled of his preaching that time but what in world does Dr. Schaap doing now? I've read articles of other known Preachers and Pastors who also graduated from HAC and they were against Schaap. His father-in-law, the late Dr. Jack Hyles and Dr. Russel Andersson (I don't know if Sir George is related to him) founded the HAC based on the inspired, preserved Word of God, the King James Version.

Is this the fulfillment of Dr. Jack Hyles words that the biggest split among the brethren will come in the next ten years? God forbid.

Quoted from:http://www.hacalumni.com/gailmarch3.shtml

Dr. Jack Hyles on King James Bible:

"The biggest split that has ever come will come in the next ten years, if not sooner, over the King James Bible, and it couldn't come soon enough for me. I'm tired of colleges and universities advertising that they use the King James Bible. Tell the whole story! Tell everyone that you do not believe that it is inspired word for word..." See also page 66 and chapter 5 The Need for An Every-Word Bible (Hyles Publications, ‘03

George 07-23-2009 09:42 AM

Re: "KJB summit"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredoheaven (Post 24586)
I've seen and heard Dr. Jack Schaap and other big names from the fundamentalist circles as they preached here in the Philippines at Christian Bible Baptist Church, San Pedro Laguna Philippines. Thousands of Christians arrived just to hear Dr. Jack Schaap. I too, have been thrilled of his preaching that time but what in world does Dr. Schaap doing now? I've read articles of other known Preachers and Pastors who also graduated from HAC and they were against Schaap. His father-in-law, the late Dr. Jack Hyles and Dr. Russel Andersson (I don't know if Sir George is related to him) founded the HAC based on the inspired, preserved Word of God, the King James Version.

Is this the fulfillment of Dr. Jack Hyles words that the biggest split among the brethren will come in the next ten years? God forbid.

Quoted from:http://www.hacalumni.com/gailmarch3.shtml

Dr. Jack Hyles on King James Bible:

"The biggest split that has ever come will come in the next ten years, if not sooner, over the King James Bible, and it couldn't come soon enough for me. I'm tired of colleges and universities advertising that they use the King James Bible. Tell the whole story! Tell everyone that you do not believe that it is inspired word for word..." See also page 66 and chapter 5 The Need for An Every-Word Bible (Hyles Publications, ‘03


Aloha brother Fred,

Thank you for the Link to sister Gail Riplinger's comments. It is obvious, from her comments (and the "KJB Summit"), that Jack Schaap has a "hidden agenda" - that being the undermining of the AUTHORITY of our present day King James Bibles! :mad:

If you review the video's from the so-called "KJB Conference" you will see that Jack Schaap is a master at "DOUBLESPEAK" (say one thing - but mean another)! :eek: {See his comments on the word "perfect".}

This issue over the "FINAL AUTHORITY" will not (can not) be settled by some "Christian Celebrity" and his Lackeys at a so-called "KJB Conference". This is an issue that must be settled in the heart of each and every individual Christian as they prayerfully search out the truth of the "Which Bible" issue.

From 1968 - 1988 I wasted a whole lot of precious time researching this issue. I read at least 70-80 books (all sides); listened to dozens of audio tapes; learned to read the critical apparatus' of both the Nestle's Greek Text and the United Bible Societies' Greek Text; studied the manuscript evidence; studied several church histories; studied the history of "textual criticism"; and spent hundreds of hours comparing the modern "PERVERSIONS" with the King James Bible; and I never "persuaded" one person to truly believe in the King James Bible through all of the knowledge that I obtained!

On the other hand, over the years, I have asked a few brethren to make a COMPARISON of the "Modern Perversions" with the Holy words found in the King James Bible and have seen several brethren (on their own) come to the realization that there is a DIFFERENCE between our Holy Bible and all of the other English "bibles"; whereupon the Holy Spirit has convinced those brethren of the truth of His words - as found in the King James Bible, and they have become genuine Bible believers.

The issue of "Which Bible" is not going to go away, and it will NOT be "settled" by a bunch scribes and Pharisees at a so-called "KJB Summit"! :tsk:

Ultimately this has to do with BELIEVING God's "words" and TRUSTING that God has indeed PRESERVED them (as He PROMISED) in the King James Bible that we hold in our hands. This issue cannot be "settled" by KNOWLEDGE alone - God has set the whole thing up so that, no matter how much "knowledge" we obtain about this issue, in the end, we must put our FAITH in Him (and in His "words"), and TRUST Him for the veracity and truthfulness of His words as found - perfect, Holy, inspired, infallible, and without error, in the King James Bible that we hold in our hands!

As the "time" draws near, we must beware of "Christian Celebrities" and those men who are held in high "ESTEEM" by modern day Christians. If they are NOT GLORIFYING the Lord Jesus Christ and if they are NOT HONORING His Holy words - BEWARE!

FAITHFULNESS to God is NOT "measured" by HOW MANY SOULS YOU HAVE "WON". {After all - It's the "word" that convicts and convinces; and it''s God Himself that draws individuals.}
Quote:

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
It's NOT all about the "MINISTER" (the servant) of God - it's all about ALMIGHTY GOD and His Holy word. So then, without the Holy words of God and without God drawing individuals - just exactly WHAT is a "minister" or "pastor"? Did Jack Hyles or Jack Schaap DIE for our sins? Did any "pastor" shed his blood for our sins? Did any of these men cause the Holy Scriptures to be written? Have any of these men PRESERVED God's Holy words all down through the centuries? I trow not! Then WHY do modern day "Christians" ELEVATE these men as if they were a part of the Godhead? WHY do "Christians" today EXTOL THE VIRTUES of all of these "good" and "godly" men - instead of GLORIFYING ALMIGHTY GOD? :confused:
Quote:

Psalms 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalms 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
FAITHFULNESS to God is NOT "measured" by HOW BIG A CHURCH YOU (a "pastor") HAVE BUILT.
Quote:

Psalms 127:1 A Song of degrees for Solomon. Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

Hebrews 3:4
For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

So the question arises: WHO'S church ("house") is it? Is it Jack Hyles' or Jack Schaap's "church" - or God's? :confused: Did Jack Hyles or Jack Schaap "BUILD" the church or did God? How DARE any man "claim" (or "take credit") for what God hath done - unless God didn't do it? How "DARE" these men STEAL the "GLORY" that rightfully belongs to Almighty God?
Quote:

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
FAITHFULNESS to God is NOT "measured" by HOW MANY WORKS YOU HAVE PERFORMED. {IF God did the "WORK" -WHY is the "credit" being given to men?}
Quote:

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Acts 13:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.


Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Romans 9:28
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

WHO'S "work" is it? WHO performed the "work"? IF God did the "WORK" - WHY is the "credit" being given to men?

A bishop/elder/pastor is NOTHING but a "minister" (a SERVANT) of the most high God. We are NOTHING - HE IS EVERYTHING!
Quote:

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written,
He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
If men are glorying in other men - BEWARE! If men are glorying in any man's "works" - BEWARE! If men are crediting other men for those things that God has done - BEWARE! If men are NOT "GLORYING" IN GOD and if they are NOT HONORING GOD'S HOLY WORD - BEWARE!

I care not what other men may say or do - The following was true in David's day; it is true today; and it will be true throughout eternity:

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and ALL HIS WORKS are done in truth.

Luke 07-23-2009 02:41 PM

Japheth over there is a wicked man

"We're talking about bibliolatry nuts,remember? They don't NEED any help looking foolish."

Everything he posts is acidic and a personal attack on either our character or intellect. And all of this comes from a man who I have observed have the following avatars over the last month

1) Some guy from a Rob Zombie film I think. House of a thousand corpses or devils children or something like that. The evil clown thing he had up.

2) That guy from Kung-Fu - Carradine. He killed himself through auto-erotic asphyxiation.

3) The guy from A Clockwork Orange, whose favourite thing in life is violence and rape.

So what makes him think anything he says is going to be taken seriously by someone who wants to get close to God, when he is putting that filth out there to be associated with.

Fredoheaven 07-23-2009 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George (Post 24624)
Aloha brother Fred,

Thank you for the Link to sister Gail Riplinger's comments. It is obvious, from her comments (and the "KJB Summit"), that Jack Schaap has a "hidden agenda" - that being the undermining of the AUTHORITY of our present day King James Bibles! :mad:

If you review the video's from the so-called "KJB Conference" you will see that Jack Schaap is a master at "DOUBLESPEAK" (say one thing - but mean another)! :eek: {See his comments on the word "perfect".}

This issue over the "FINAL AUTHORITY" will not (can not) be settled by some "Christian Celebrity" and his Lackeys at a so-called "KJB Conference". This is an issue that must be settled in the heart of each and every individual Christian as they prayerfully search out the truth of the "Which Bible" issue.

From 1968 - 1988 I wasted a whole lot of precious time researching this issue. I read at least 70-80 books (all sides); listened to dozens of audio tapes; learned to read the critical apparatus' of both the Nestle's Greek Text and the United Bible Societies' Greek Text; studied the manuscript evidence; studied several church histories; studied the history of "textual criticism"; and spent hundreds of hours comparing the modern "PERVERSIONS" with the King James Bible; and I never "persuaded" one person to truly believe in the King James Bible through all of the knowledge that I obtained!

On the other hand, over the years, I have asked a few brethren to make a COMPARISON of the "Modern Perversions" with the Holy words found in the King James Bible and have seen several brethren (on their own) come to the realization that there is a DIFFERENCE between our Holy Bible and all of the other English "bibles"; whereupon the Holy Spirit has convinced those brethren of the truth of His words - as found in the King James Bible, and they have become genuine Bible believers.

The issue of "Which Bible" is not going to go away, and it will NOT be "settled" by a bunch scribes and Pharisees at a so-called "KJB Summit"! :tsk:

Ultimately this has to do with BELIEVING God's "words" and TRUSTING that God has indeed PRESERVED them (as He PROMISED) in the King James Bible that we hold in our hands. This issue cannot be "settled" by KNOWLEDGE alone - God has set the whole thing up so that, no matter how much "knowledge" we obtain about this issue, in the end, we must put our FAITH in Him (and in His "words"), and TRUST Him for the veracity and truthfulness of His words as found - perfect, Holy, inspired, infallible, and without error, in the King James Bible that we hold in our hands!

As the "time" draws near, we must beware of "Christian Celebrities" and those men who are held in high "ESTEEM" by modern day Christians. If they are NOT GLORIFYING the Lord Jesus Christ and if they are NOT HONORING His Holy words - BEWARE!

FAITHFULNESS to God is NOT "measured" by HOW MANY SOULS YOU HAVE "WON". {After all - It's the "word" that convicts and convinces; and it''s God Himself that draws individuals.}
It's NOT all about the "MINISTER" (the servant) of God - it's all about ALMIGHTY GOD and His Holy word. So then, without the Holy words of God and without God drawing individuals - just exactly WHAT is a "minister" or "pastor"? Did Jack Hyles or Jack Schaap DIE for our sins? Did any "pastor" shed his blood for our sins? Did any of these men cause the Holy Scriptures to be written? Have any of these men PRESERVED God's Holy words all down through the centuries? I trow not! Then WHY do modern day "Christians" ELEVATE these men as if they were a part of the Godhead? WHY do "Christians" today EXTOL THE VIRTUES of all of these "good" and "godly" men - instead of GLORIFYING ALMIGHTY GOD? :confused:
FAITHFULNESS to God is NOT "measured" by HOW BIG A CHURCH YOU (a "pastor") HAVE BUILT.
So the question arises: WHO'S church ("house") is it? Is it Jack Hyles' or Jack Schaap's "church" - or God's? :confused: Did Jack Hyles or Jack Schaap "BUILD" the church or did God? How DARE any man "claim" (or "take credit") for what God hath done - unless God didn't do it? How "DARE" these men STEAL the "GLORY" that rightfully belongs to Almighty God?
FAITHFULNESS to God is NOT "measured" by HOW MANY WORKS YOU HAVE PERFORMED. {IF God did the "WORK" -WHY is the "credit" being given to men?}
WHO'S "work" is it? WHO performed the "work"? IF God did the "WORK" - WHY is the "credit" being given to men?

A bishop/elder/pastor is NOTHING but a "minister" (a SERVANT) of the most high God. We are NOTHING - HE IS EVERYTHING!
If men are glorying in other men - BEWARE! If men are glorying in any man's "works" - BEWARE! If men are crediting other men for those things that God has done - BEWARE! If men are NOT "GLORYING" IN GOD and if they are NOT HONORING GOD'S HOLY WORD - BEWARE!

I care not what other men may say or do - The following was true in David's day; it is true today; and it will be true throughout eternity:

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and ALL HIS WORKS are done in truth.

Thank you sir for the comments/ exhortation! Verily, the credit belongs only to God. The glory belongs only to Jesus. "We are nothing -He(God) is everything!"

God bless you!

Biblestudent 07-23-2009 07:40 PM

Oh no, what is going on :confused:

Steven Avery 07-23-2009 08:29 PM

Hi Folks,

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector
and bewraying the fact that he does not really know what he is speaking about.

Amen.. and a very nice example of the King James Bible vocabulary adding to the richness of today's English. I really appreciated the sharing on the distinction between betray and bewray.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector
He makes some astonishing false statements ... “Therefore, what the translators did in 1611 was not complete, because it was missing 47 words”. In reality, the version text and translation were complete, and the translators cannot be charged with producing an inferior work.

And if Luke or Peter misspelled a word, or gave a word that was clarified by an amenusis, does that mean that should be accused of uninspiration ? I trow not ! It is the whole process of giving scripture that is inspired of God. :

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And thus every individual who is a part of this process is a part of the inspiration process. Trying to fragment and dissect against this process, which has given us the fully pure and perfect King James Bible, is only the wiles of men.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector
He makes the erroneous assumption that what is printed in 1611 must be the translators’ intended work as far as every last detail of the presentation. But since it is clear that the translators did not intend nor were the authors of the printing errors, already it can be pointed out that the translators cannot be summarily be blamed for doing an incomplete work.

There should be no "blame" even if the King James Bible was perfected more excellently in 1629 or 1638 or any other time. The process of the giving of scripture involved many ages and men, the King James Bible translators of 1611 being one central fulcrum, the Bible authors and their helpers another, and many others, known and unknown. Tyndale and the Geneva Bible translators and the TR labourers and many others (at the times of the NT authors and later) can be considered a part of the whole process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector
He argues: 1. Words were added later. 2. Therefore the 1611 translators’ work was incomplete. 3. Therefore the translators were not inspired.

And thus, if Luke or Peter or Isaiah omitted a word that was corrected by their friend, or postal companion, or translator or another, they were not inspired ? This question arises whether the enhancement or correction arises an hour later, or a week or a year or a decade or a century. Perhaps Mark wrote in Latin or Greaco-Latin and a later Greek translator did some vocabularly tweaking, adjusment, formalization. Do summit-men claim that all such transmission possibilities are impossible ? On what basis ? (If so .. perhaps The declarations of Warfield.)

Overall, I can understand a little better the hesitation to apply "inspiration" to the men used of God rather than to scripture. Something at least to consider. However in that case we have a category error (in the attempt to un-inspire the 1611 work and men) -- rather than an accusation against the King James Bible. The KJB 1611 is scripture, therefore according to Timothy it is given by inspiration of God.

As I have explained above, I also do not think we have any need to claim absolute perfection (putting aside the presentation issues) in the extremely pure 1611 King James Bible. Having absolute perfection in the pure Bible in our hands, such as many regard the PCE, is both wonderful and the basic need. The KJB 1611 labours have been, clearly, one major part of this pure Bible process. King James Bible defenders I believe help themselves and others when they emphasize the whole process of the Reformation Bible, the pure word of God, leading unto the purest "Received Text", the King James Bible, giving us, the ploughman and even the scholar the pure word of God, 100% pure and perfect, inspired and preserved. Thank you Lord Jesus for your pure word.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

George 07-23-2009 08:59 PM

Re: "KJB summit"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 24637)
Oh no, what is going on :confused:


Aloha brother Sammy,

Please check out the following Links (there are hours of viewing & hearing, and reading) to see what is taking place WITHIN the so-called "Fundamentalist's ranks" in the good ole U.S.A.

Hyles/Anderson College and many of those men associated with it are "switching" their "FINAL AUTHORITY" in all matters of faith and practice from the English Holy Bible (the King James Bible) to the "HEBREW" and "GREEK". {The videos & audio are from Jack Schaap and several Hyles/Anderson College Professors - in their "own words". There is also a short "critique" by Gail Riplinger demonstrating what is taking place.}

Please check the following Links:

http://hylesanderson.edu/?page_id=2356

http://www.hacalumni.com/gailmarch3.shtml

This is the same "road" that practically every single so-called "Fundamentalist Christian Institute" of higher learning has taken in the United States in the last 60-75 years. This is the "broad way" (road) that leadeth to destruction (i.e. Apostasy) "and many there be which go in thereat." :(

The lesson is clear for all genuine Bible believers - do NOT place your trust in men, especially famous Christian "Celebrities". :tsk:

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. {Especially "famous pastors"}
9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
{Or "Christian Celebrities"}

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Biblestudent 07-23-2009 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George (Post 24640)
Aloha brother Sammy,

Please check out the following Links (there are hours of viewing & hearing, and reading) to see what is taking place WITHIN the so-called "Fundamentalist's ranks" in the good ole U.S.A.

Hyles/Anderson College and many of those men associated with it are "switching" their "FINAL AUTHORITY" in all matters of faith and practice from the English Holy Bible (the King James Bible) to the "HEBREW" and "GREEK". {The videos & audio are from Jack Schaap and several Hyles/Anderson College Professors - in their "own words". There is also a short "critique" by Gail Riplinger demonstrating what is taking place.}

:tsk: It's a very sad thing for me. I've heard a little about these things, and now the unbelievable reality has happened. Following some links posted led me to their give-away CD contents, and you're right, Bro. George: "It should have been called the "Hyles/Anderson Summit on why "we" do NOT accept the King James Bible as our 'FINAL AUTHORITY'!":tsk:

I'm not associated with the Indiana church or school in any way (although a Filipina acquaintance working in the US is currently churched there), but I am very much concerned when another big Fundamental Baptist leaves the KJV.

George 07-24-2009 12:28 PM

Re: " KJB summit"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 24583)
I have long thought that it would be a good idea to bring together men who have completely and vocally stood on the perfection of the KJB to establish a standard from which churches who sought to answer questions on the issue but were without the necessary leadership, or whose leaders were limited in their exposure to the issue could draw information.

There are true KJBO leaders throughout the faithful who are not generally known as famous names, but have the knowledge to establish a "clearing-house" for seekers of the truth. The sad problem with bringing together well-known people is often there is a clash for position. If the leaders were all of some equal footing, that is, none carried widely recognized names, then perhaps the "pride" of popularity might be diminished.

I have often mused that if there could be a "summit" of such men known here, and others who don't post here but carry the torch of faithfulness, then perhaps the mutual knowledge could develop into a basis for the defense of the supremacy of the KJB. So much time is spent repeating arguments in areas of contention, such as "strain at" vs "strain out", "Easter", number variations, etc. It would be very beneficial if a central database could be established of the Biblical answers to these challenges. Many books have been written, but often differences in explanation lead to confusion.

The so-called "KJB Summit" addressed in this thread did not reach the goal.

Is this too much of a dream to be a reality?


Aloha Brother Tim,

The reason why you will never see such an endeavor as you envision ever take place amongst Christians who "profess" to believe in the King James Bible is because, although you and I may “differ” on some issues, I firmly believe that (in your heart) you have an honest and sincere desire to see this issue settled amongst genuine Bible believers. The problem is that - the men who put on this so-called "KJB Summit" obviously had a totally "different agenda” (outcome) in mind! {NEVER UNDERESTIMATE the wickedness, and the guile, and deceit that still reside in the hearts of believers.}

I believe that this "Summit" is all about the "posturing" and "positioning" of Hyles/Anderson College (and the men who are connected with it) as being the "defenders" of the “true word” of God, and "AUTHORITIES" as to the "nature" of the GENUINE TEXT of Scripture, which according to their testimony, cannot be found (inspired, Holy, infallible, perfect and without error) in any ENGLISH BIBLE, but which resides in the "GREEK" and the "HEBREW" (take your pick!) instead!

Bob Jones University went through this "same posturing" decades ago, and they used the exact same "methods" (Christian College Professors, i.e. the "scribes") to convince ignorant Christians of their "loyalty" and "faithfulness" to God's Holy word. {But anyone who is familiar with the history of BJU knows better - NOW.}

These men presented the "facts" with such an admixture of obvious error and the deliberate omission of crucial historic "facts” that only those Christians who are ignorant of the "Which Bible" issue will fall for their carefully crafted “revisionism”.


Brother Matthew (Bibleprotector) dealt with, and handily refuted, only one portion of onepresentation” - out of 11 “presentations”. Imagine how long and laborious it would be to demonstrate and prove all of the errors and misinformation that were introduced at this so-called “Summit”! What about ALL of the pertinent “FACTS” that these men deliberately left out of their “presentations”? As the following comments (on just one part of one “presentation”) will demonstrate:

Check out Mr. Ted Speer’s 2nd. “presentation” where he JUSTIFIES CORRECTING the King James Bible by citing the fact that Dr. John R. Rice CORRECTED it in his writings; and Dr. Joe Boyd CORRECTED it in the classroom at Hyles/Anderson College; and Jack Hyles CORRECTED it in some of his writings in the 1950’s. What Mr. Speer carefully (and purposefully) NEGLECTED to cite was the fact that Jack Hyles later clearly repudiated his earlier error (committed when he was a young and inexperienced preacher – following “the herd”) and that from the 1980’s on was a staunch supporter of the King James Bible! NOT very “HONEST” of Mr. Speer to OMIT THAT CRUCIAL “FACT” – wouldn’t you say? What do we do about “Christians” who purposely OMIT the TRUTH in order to “prove” their point? DISENGENUOUS doesn’t begin to “define” such a “Christian”! Check this Link out to see what Jack Hyles REALLY & TRULY BELIEVED about the King James Bible: http://www.hacalumni.com/gailmarch3.shtml}

What of the off-hand (snide) remarks made about those of us who love God’s Holy words and who “dare” to question these men - about a subject that they claim is so “complex”, that “ordinary” Christians can’t possibly grasp it or understand it? {Talk about arrogance! :eek:} Who are we (ordinary Christians) to QUESTION the “experts”? What can we (ordinary Christians) possibly know that they don’t already know? And who do we (ordinary Christians) think we are - asking “biased questions” (as if anyone is “unbiased”!), just because we (ordinary Christians) don’t appreciate them casting doubt upon the Holy words of God?

What about the constant fawning over Jack Hyles and all of the other men (pastors & teachers) as if they are to be admired, praised, and exalted ABOVE ordinary Christian brethren? The continual adulation of Jack Hyles (and other pastors & teachers) is unbecoming of “Christian” men who are supposed to be “ensamples to the flock”!

WHY did they OMIT the most important part of WHY most genuine Bible believers believe in the King James Bible: i.e. The Internal Evidence - What Does God have to Say about His “words”? {And not as Ken Schaap professed: “I believe in the King James Bible because my grandfather (Jack Hyles) and my father (Jack Schaap) believed it!}

WHY did they lightly skip over the Old Testament History of the Text, and the New Testament History of the Text? WHY was there no mention of Alexandria, Egypt, and the pernicious influence that Greek Philosophy (and “Higher Education”) had on many of the early professed “Christians” (Clement & Origen – i.e. the Bible correcting “Alexandrian scribes”) and the influence those men (and Greek Philosophy) had on later “Christians” (Jerome & Augustine Roman Catholic “scribes” that were the progenitors and originators of the Roman Catholic bible (Jerome); and the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church (Augustine)?

And what about the History of the Transmission of the Text of the Bible in the Church Age; or the Manuscript Evidence; or a Comparison of Versions? WHY the continual harping on the minor and insignificant differences between the AV1611 and the King James Bible we hold in our hands today? Hmmm?

Again I ask: WHAT was the “PURPOSE” of this so-called “KJB Summit” - if most of the time (and presentations) was spent on pointing out insignificant differences between the AV1611 and the King James Bible that we have today? WHAT could these men have possibly hoped to ACCOMPLISH by continually pointing out those minor differences? HOW could they possibly “think” that this so-called “KJB Summit” would be edifying or profitable to Christians, if all they have done is CAST DOUBT on the veracity and truthfulness of the Holy Bible that we hold in our hands and that most of us cherish?

I keep asking: WHAT WERE THEY “THINKING”? Are they out to DIVIDE genuine Bible believers (even more)? Are they trying to “MARGINALIZE” and “ISOLATE” those of us who believe in the “Holy perfection” of the Holy Scriptures as found in the King James Bible, and place us outside of the MAINSTREAM of “reasonable”, and “sensible” Bible believers – thus casting us as “unreasonable fanatics” and “troublemakers”? Hmmm?

Whatever their motives (God only knows) – they have “stirred the pot” (once again) and you can be sure that in the end, this so-called “KJB Summit” will only serve to DIVIDE the brethren more and more, and CAST DOUBT in the minds and hearts of Christians (who are not familiar with the “Which Bible Issue”) everywhere on the veracity of the Holy Bible!

The subtle, clever, and devious manner, in which this “KJB Summit” was “orchestrated” and carried out, is unworthy of men who pass themselves off as “Bible believers”!

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Amanda S. 07-24-2009 01:11 PM

Bro. George you said:

Quote:

Please check out the following Links (there are hours of viewing & hearing, and reading) to see what is taking place WITHIN the so-called "Fundamentalist's ranks" in the good ole U.S.A.

Hyles/Anderson College and many of those men associated with it are "switching" their "FINAL AUTHORITY" in all matters of faith and practice from the English Holy Bible (the King James Bible) to the "HEBREW" and "GREEK". {The videos & audio are from Jack Schaap and several Hyles/Anderson College Professors - in their "own words". There is also a short "critique" by Gail Riplinger demonstrating what is taking place.}

Please check the following Links:

http://hylesanderson.edu/?page_id=2356

http://www.hacalumni.com/gailmarch3.shtml

This is the same "road" that practically every single so-called "Fundamentalist Christian Institute" of higher learning has taken in the United States in the last 60-75 years. This is the "broad way" (road) that leadeth to destruction (i.e. Apostasy) "and many there be which go in thereat."

The lesson is clear for all genuine Bible believers - do NOT place your trust in men, especially famous Christian "Celebrities".
Bro. I would also like to add that we should not put our trust in a movement either....The Fundamentalist movement is in the process of apocitizing (if it hasn't happened already!). Us Bible Believers in an effort to seperate ourselves from this apostacy and to identify ourselves dropped "Fundamental" from our "name" awhile back....Making it Independent ... Bible Believing Baptist. I would not be surprised if in an attempt to seperate ourselves from the impending apostacy on this group we will need to change our "name" to something else.

Man sure does mess things up when we get involved don't we!? Let God be true and every man a liar...hold fast that which is good!

Just a few thoughts to back you up brother.

Amanda S. 07-24-2009 01:19 PM

Oh and another thing:

Bro George you said:

Quote:

Bob Jones University went through this "same posturing" decades ago, and they used the exact same "methods" (Christian College Professors, i.e. the "scribes") to convince ignorant Christians of their "loyalty" and "faithfulness" to God's Holy word. {But anyone who is familiar with the history of BJU knows better - NOW.}
Bro. Bill Grady who wrote "What Hath God Wrought" and "How Satan Turned America Against God" spoke at Crown College a few years ago and from the pulpit said that even Crown College will apostatize...If given enough years. He also blasted them on their KJO stand...Quite a humorous message and the comments by Clarence Sexton afterward is completely priceless! LoL

Crown didn't let him finish the rest of his meetings and tried to pay him off to keep quiet about it!!!

Perhaps you've seen it?


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