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-   -   Is a womanís head-covering applicable in worship today? (https://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1515)

PaulB 08-02-2009 09:49 AM

Is a womanís head-covering applicable in worship today?
 
Hello again all!

Yes, itís a deep theological question for yeall and believe me, I donít post these questions to be controversial or to play forum games, I post them because I witness and preach from the Bible and I seriously wish to understand the things that the Bible tells us about.

I have heard David Cloud on this a while ago and from what he said it sounds very much like this is what ought to be done, as others dismiss it as a first century pagan practice at Corinth only. I donít expect everyone to see eye to eye on this but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts!

I cor.11:4 ďEvery man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.Ē

I am not too sure about it being a 1st century pagan practice because if it was, then I couldnít see an apostle like Paul imposing it as a practice in a church that he had established. After all, he spent enough time delivering the churches from the Jewish practices that others were trying to impose on them (e.g. Galatians).

Look forward to hearing your replies!

God bless

PaulB

PaulB 08-02-2009 10:31 AM

OOOOOOpppps!
 
Sorry about that guys.........I just found your answers from Connie's thread way back in the archives. The trouble is..I can't unpost the thread now can I?

God bless

PaulB

PaulB 08-02-2009 10:43 AM

Will this do instead?

Is it biblical to have female Pastors/Teachers/Elders?

Today we have a multitude of female pastors, elders and Bible teachers an example of which would be Joyce Mayer not to mention many other famous names that are known to Christian Television, but is this phenomena a result of what the Bible teaches or the result of another influence that has highjacked the church?

Where do you guys stand on this?
Is it sexist to take the following passages too literally or have we moved on since the first century?

1 Cor.14.34 “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.”

1 Tm.2:11-15 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.”

Are there such things as “role responsibilities” any longer or are there really no distinguishable differences between the spiritual roles of men and women?

I know that this is a delicate subject but the only way to draw sound conclusions by hearing the sound arguments that form them! I honestly seek to understand passages like these more and that is why I post them.

God bless

PaulB

greenbear 08-02-2009 05:32 PM

PaulB,

If you don't know the answer, may I suggest you reread the Polygamy posts; husband of one wife, etc.

CKG 08-03-2009 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulB (Post 25014)
Will this do instead?

Is it biblical to have female Pastors/Teachers/Elders?

Today we have a multitude of female pastors, elders and Bible teachers an example of which would be Joyce Mayer not to mention many other famous names that are known to Christian Television, but is this phenomena a result of what the Bible teaches or the result of another influence that has highjacked the church?

Where do you guys stand on this?
Is it sexist to take the following passages too literally or have we moved on since the first century?

1 Cor.14.34 ďLet your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.Ē

1 Tm.2:11-15 ďLet the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.Ē

Are there such things as ďrole responsibilitiesĒ any longer or are there really no distinguishable differences between the spiritual roles of men and women?

I know that this is a delicate subject but the only way to draw sound conclusions by hearing the sound arguments that form them! I honestly seek to understand passages like these more and that is why I post them.

God bless

PaulB

Seems pretty clear cut.
1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 3:1-2 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife

Titus 1:5-6 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife

CKG 08-03-2009 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulB (Post 25012)
Hello again all!

Yes, itís a deep theological question for yeall and believe me, I donít post these questions to be controversial or to play forum games, I post them because I witness and preach from the Bible and I seriously wish to understand the things that the Bible tells us about.

I have heard David Cloud on this a while ago and from what he said it sounds very much like this is what ought to be done, as others dismiss it as a first century pagan practice at Corinth only. I donít expect everyone to see eye to eye on this but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts!

I cor.11:4 ďEvery man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.Ē

I am not too sure about it being a 1st century pagan practice because if it was, then I couldnít see an apostle like Paul imposing it as a practice in a church that he had established. After all, he spent enough time delivering the churches from the Jewish practices that others were trying to impose on them (e.g. Galatians).

Look forward to hearing your replies!

God bless

PaulB

1 Corinthians 11:15 - But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

PaulB 08-03-2009 08:30 AM

Hi Craig!
I totally agree with you and see no other way of reading those texts on the teaching issue. But I was once publically rebuked by a pastor who labelled me as bigoted when I did not subscribe to the evolutionary progress of 21st century Christendom!

God bless

PaulB

Amanda S. 08-03-2009 11:40 AM

Bro. Paul,

I'd like to offer you this article from Bro. Reagan who was a wonderful encouragement to my husband and I. We've rarely found a subject we've disagreed on.

http://www.learnthebible.org/head-coverings.html

The question of head coverings is one that I know I've studied out and one that I believe Sis. Pam Custer has studied out although it's been awhile. Perhaps it would offer a different perspective than the archived thread?

There is also a "group" or denomination if you will, called Head-Covering Baptists. You can find their information here:

http://coveredbaptists.proboards.com...ay&thread=2571

The one thing that "is" appealing of wearing a covering is that you are identifying yourself as different, peculiar. And you are more aware of yourself and your testimony knowing that you will not just blend into the crowd with your actions.

Kind of like having Scripture signs on the back of your car. :D We have Dr. Ruckman's Scripture signs on the back of all our vehicles, it's an extra reminder that we should behave in such a way as to bring glory to His name.
While we should always behave ourselves so as to not bring a reproach to the cause of Christ sometimes it's not enough and our flesh gets its way. But being ever aware that we're not out there on the road like everyone else, we have God's Words on our bumpers, hopefully that will spur us on to exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit even when a car pulls out in front of us :)

Anyway, Bro. Paul I hope these 2 articles will help you in your studies.

Be Blessed!

Amanda S. 08-03-2009 11:41 AM

Quote:

Bro. Craig said: Seems pretty clear cut.

1 Timothy 2:12 - But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 3:1-2 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife

Titus 1:5-6 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife

Bro. Craig, Amen and Amen! :)

CKG 08-03-2009 02:19 PM

Another link of interest

http://www.momof9splace.com/headcoverings.html

Amanda S. 08-03-2009 02:24 PM

Argh!!! I hadn't even thought of hers!! She does have a great website. My husband and her oldest son went to Bible school together. I know her personally and she is for SURE a Prov. 31 lady. Thank you Brother Craig for reminding me of this resource.

PaulB 08-03-2009 04:03 PM

more thoughts!
 
Hi all!

Having read your links and I must say that they are interesting and I do appreciate your help, do you think that it is then a wrong thing to do for a man to cover his head when praying or prophesying?

I canít accept the interpretation of the womanís covering within this context being her hair, because when you apply that rule of interpretation to the context then it makes it sound like a man is dishonouring his head if he is not bald when he prays!

I agree that long hair is a covering but I donít think that this is what is being meant here, as it seems as though Paul is referring to the natural order of things (i.e. masculine feminine appearances) to get them to see his point. Believe me when I say that I am not being sexist here in any way or trying impose rules upon women but I honestly seek to know what this means (after all, I donít want to dishonour my head if I am praying with my hair on do I?:D)


Any other thoughts?

God bless

PaulB

custer 08-03-2009 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKG (Post 25057)


I don't even use the word "awesome," but that article was AWESOME!!!

I love it when somebody/anybody reads a passage and says it means exactly what it says! And, like she mentioned in the article, I have always thought that it is very telling that people who want to promote a covering other than LONG HAIR, must "go to the Greek" to prove their point. My experience is limited in dealing with people on this issue, but I have NEVER had anyone press the separate/second covering teaching using only a King James Bible!

THANK GOD FOR HIS WORD!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

custer 08-03-2009 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulB (Post 25062)
Hi all!

Having read your links and I must say that they are interesting and I do appreciate your help, do you think that it is then a wrong thing to do for a man to cover his head when praying or prophesying?

I canít accept the interpretation of the womanís covering within this context being her hair, because when you apply that rule of interpretation to the context then it makes it sound like a man is dishonouring his head if he is not bald when he prays!

I agree that long hair is a covering but I donít think that this is what is being meant here, as it seems as though Paul is referring to the natural order of things (i.e. masculine feminine appearances) to get them to see his point. Believe me when I say that I am not being sexist here in any way or trying impose rules upon women but I honestly seek to know what this means (after all, I donít want to dishonour my head if I am praying with my hair on do I?:D)


Any other thoughts?

God bless

PaulB

The covering is not just "hair." It is defined or described or clarified in verse 15 as "LONG HAIR." So, the man's hair SHOULD NOT be long...that would constitute his head being "covered." Look at verse 4, then at verse 14. It is about the distinction between men and women...like Rev. 9:8, "And they had hair as the hair of women,..." If we BELIEVE I Cor. 11:15, then the "hair of women" is "long hair," as opposed to the hair of men, which should NOT be long.

I cannot see how verse 15 could be any clearer...a woman should DESIRE to have "long hair," there is a colon after the first phrase indicating that an explanation is coming, then there's the word "for" (can we agree that's going to mean 'because,?') and the word "covering" obviously referring back to "long hair."

I, too, am interested in hearing everybody's thoughts on this, but maybe I should warn you, I AM a literalist!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com


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