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If ye love me, keep my suggestions
Deuteronomy 8:3 ..but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God WHICH WORDS? EVERY WORD! WHO is the exception to this command? 1Peter 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. Penned by Peter, commanded by God, CHRISTIANS were to honour CAESAR. Bloodthirsty, self aggrandizing CAESAR! A TYRANT!! GOD SAID HONOUR HIM!!! Was that a suggestion? WHO, is the exception? BIBLICAL answer please. There are no exceptions to God's COMMANDS, but colonists made King George III an exception. So, King Geoarge III irritated, and aggravated the colonists...YES? Where might that have come from? Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. That irritation and aggravation CAME FROM GOD, HE SAYS SO! WHY...? A test, would the 'Christian' colonists BELIEVE and OBEY God's Word or not. NOT! So, King George III became an ENEMY...YES? So, why WASN'T this command obeyed? Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you Some are caught in a trap! A STUMBLINGBLOCK is a trap, set to catch those who DO NOT love and OBEY God's Truth. The foundation of an entire nation is a STUMBLINGBLOCK, WHY? He STILL tests saints, WHOM will they believe? ARE THEY TRULY SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH GOD? A test, a test that 'Christians' to THIS DAY, can NOT pass. Thus, ANYONE who teaches that the colonists did RIGHT, teaches and loves a LIE more than the TRUTH. Teaches evil as good Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! |
That was highly interesting...strange, but interesting!:)
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I do believe in the sovereignty of God - and believe He is in control - that nothing happens unless He causes or allows it; however, that is not the same thing as stating everything that happens is by His direct decree. |
supposed 'christian' men killed men BECAUSE of the aggravations of the king.
And his military, read their complaints here http://www.constitution.org/usdeclar.htm Men were commanded to HONOUR Caesar, A TYRANT, 1Peter 2:17 . The colonists called King George a TYRANT, and cried about his TYRANNY. Quote:
Where, may I ask, does persecution of believers come from? Here's some help, who smote Job? In any case, the command to honour the king was disobeyed, with cannon and musket fire, AND the command to love one's enemies was done away with in the same manner, and TODAY that rebellion against GOD is celebrated every year. 1Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry |
Then came great swellin words of worship
After the victory came the great swelling words of worship
But do good words always come from a good source? Who said these words? Matthew 8:29 Jesus, thou Son of God Mark 1:24 I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God. Mark 3:11 Thou art the Son of God Luke 4:41 Thou art Christ the Son of God LOOK 'EM UP!!! WHO SAID THESE WORDS OF WORSHIP, PRAISE AND FAITH? DEMONS SAID THEM...!!!! So, do GOOD words come from a GOOD source? Is it ALWAYS SO? Now go here, http://www.biblebelievers.com/gipp_we_americans.html look 'em up, Who Said These words? "My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ' "I recommend my soul to that Almighty Being" "I believe that there is only one living and true God" "I subscribe to the entire belief of the great and leading doctrines of the Christian religion" They SAY GOOD words, but their ACTIONS prove the source of those words!! James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways. Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 1Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, Doubleminded men SAY one thing, then DO another, they offer up words of PRAISE and WORSHIP then CURSE GOD, or in the vernacular, 'flip Him OFF', with disobedience and REBELLION! ALL CHRISTIANS, read that again, ALL CHRISTIANS, DID YOU GET IT THIS TIME, ALL CHISTIANS ARE COMMANDED TO DO THIS... Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. and this... 1Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 1Peter 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 1Peter 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: and this... 1Peter 2:17 Fear God. Honour the king. But double minded, disobedient, REBELLIOUS men made WAR on a king, and KILLED men over real estate, commerce, and taxation... AND LUST FOR NATIONHOOD!!! Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezekiel 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Men may call themselves anything they want to. Men may call themselves a 'Christian', or EVEN a Rolls Royce if they wish. But it doesn't make it so... DOES IT? What DOES make a Christian, a Christian? OBEDIENCE, John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? |
200 years later, AMERICANIANITY in full bloom
Americanianity is the result of believing the lie. A vile mix of Christianity and the filth of the world, where duty to God is confused with duty to a crooked and perverse nation.
The profane and the holy Eze 44:23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. This one, 'pastor' Baldwin, doesn't know the difference between the profane and the holy. Look at what he calls sacred, and a CHRISTIANS' DUTY, the words of men, 'the constitution', then he says "and God" making them equal. http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin361.htm ***The American people have a sacred duty to the principles of freedom and their posterity*** A 'SACRED' DUTY TO POSTERITY, TO CONTINUE THE LYING MYTH THAT THE FOUNDERS DID WHAT WAS RIGHT? THEY DID NOT DO RIGHT, THE WORD of GOD TELLS US SO!!! ***What should matter is whether he obeys his oath to the Constitution (and to God) *** (my BIBLE says NO OATHS, Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all, Jas 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not) THE WORD of GOD SAYS NO OATHS, PERIOD!!!!! CHRISTIANS MAY NOT SWEAR TO GOD TO KILL MEN TO DEFEND THE WORDS OF FALLEN MEN, THE WORD of GOD TELLS US SO Baldwin sees himself serving God by serving a NATION, a nation God calls crooked and perverse. Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, From whence cometh such NONSENSE? It started when the founding fathers REBELLED AGAINST GOD ALMIGHTY! Were they chastised? NO they were given WHAT THEY WANTED, victory, the result of their REBELLION. (they then thanked GOD for the RESULT of their REBELLION, and that folks, is SHAKING ones fist at Almighty God!) 1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry And as a result TODAY folks such as Baldwin THINK they do God a service in the service of a crooked and perverse nation. Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Neither the fumbling founding fathers nor the likes of Baldwin love the TRUTH, they LOVE THEIR SIN! But, I'm getting ahead of myself, we need proofs from God's Word, the FINAL AUTHORITY, the authority to which ALL Christians owe OBEDIENCE! 1Sa 15:22 Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. Remember, the fumbling founding fathers THOUGHT it right that Peter should FIRE weapons at, and KILL Paul. The year being 1776, and Peter being English, and Paul a colonist SUBJECT of the KING! Why did they FIGHT the king? Their complaints are found here, http://www.constitution.org/usdeclar.htm NOWHERE is found BIBLICAL reason to disobey authority, NOWHERE. What is Biblical justification for disobedience? Read the book of Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, were commanded to WORSHIP a wrong OBJECT, Daniel was commanded to NOT WORSHIP in a correct METHOD. The ONLY justification for disobeying civil authority is WORSHIP. There is NO justification for the founding father's actions in their complaints. There are many COMPLAINTS of taxation, which the Lord Jesus Christ addressed here, Mat 22:21 Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. They had NO EXCUSE to disobey. BUT that isn't the whole of the matter. What did Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and Daniel DO when they HAD Biblical justfication to disobey? Did they WAR with authority? NO, they simply continued to OBEY GOD! Which is what ALL CHRISTIANS are to do. Act 5:29 We ought to obey God rather than men. The fumbling founding fathers DID WHAT THEY WANTED TO, FROM THEIR OWN LUSTS FOR NATIONHOOD! Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? They had NO love for the TRUTH! 2Th 2:10 because they received not the love of the truth, 2Th 2:11 God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: Thus they believed a LIE. The LIE that they did RIGHT by God and were rewarded by God. THIS IS WHAT IS CALLED A STUMBLINGBLOCK, IT COMES FROM GOD HIMSELF WHEN MEN (men of God, supposedly) SHAKE THEIR FIST AT GOD BY THANKING HIM FOR REWARDING THEIR REBELLION! Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, The United States of America is a house built ON SIN, REBELLION AGAINST GOD ALMIGHTY! And EVERYONE who BELIEVES THAT LIE, and believe the founding fathers did what was RIGHT and GODLY and CHRISTIAN is as guilty as the ones who founded this crooked and perverse nation on REBELLION, which IS as the sin of WITCHCRAFT! THINK on these things next 4th of July when you celebrate the SIN of the founding fathers! Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. 1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. 1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. Of course you may disregard ALL of the above if you wish to believe the fumbling founding fathers didn't have to OBEY the Word of God, making them ABOVE God, as MANY believe today, making this crooked and perverse nation, One nation ABOVE God, indivisible - (Who Says? Paul KILLED Peter over this word in the 1860's!!) with liberty and justice for sale - (ask O. J Simpson...LOL) But, you say, "the king was such a baddie" LOL... Have you EVER seen this verse? Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. King George III was EXACTLY as God would have him to be!!! FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE AND PURPOSE!!! It's called SOVEREIGNTY, and SURPRISE... GOD IS SOVEREIGN, NOT MEN...LOL...;o) But, you say, "did not God intend there to be a U.S. of A.?" Of course He did, but for His own pleasure and purpose. Remember, He also INTENDED there to be a CRUCIFIXION of His only begotten Son, but that does NOT excuse the SIN of His executioners, does it? But, you say, "America is SO GOOD" Do you think the Satan a FOOL? Granny down the street is GOOD, so sweet to the little children, but IF she does NOT believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, what if HER ERROR be believed for her sweetness when she denies TRUTH. The deceiver is NOT only about the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Bundy and Manson, he DECEIVES MANY with NICENESS and GOODNESS! HE APPEARETH AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT, that is what DECEPTION is all about! But, you say, "we are so rich and comfortable, hasn't God BLESSED America, ?" (Job learned that his DEAD loved ones, and sore BOILS were a BLESSING, didn't he?) Deu 8:12 Lest when thou hast eaten and art full, and hast built goodly houses, and dwelt therein; Deu 8:13 And when thy herds and thy flocks multiply, and thy silver and thy gold is multiplied, and all that thou hast is multiplied; Deu 8:14 Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the LORD thy God, Are you sure you understand what a stumblingblock is, or what it's PURPOSE is? Ya better check it out. Are you going to believe what you see, and experience, or GOD'S WORD? THE TRAP OF THE LIE AND STRONG DELUSION AWAITS THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE THE TRUTH |
Job 1 and 2 is quite clear that Satan touched Job's possessions, family, and smote him with God's persmission. We see the same thing in Luke 22:
Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Satan is God's dog - he can only go so far on his leash - only as far as God allows. But that doesn't make God responsible for what Satan does, or the cause of what Satan does. |
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Job 2:3 ..although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause
what does that mean? Who is the ME, and who is the HIM? WHO instigated the conversation. And Job found out that his dead relatives, and sore boils were a BLESSING... Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. blessing from...WHO? |
This topic interests me but I do have a few thoughts to add:
There is at least one verse that justifies rebellion....even if it is of a different kind. What if I were to say "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. Acts 5:29"? I acknowledge that the founding fathers of America were not all Christians. There was a schism (almost perfectly in half) of the singers of the declaration of independence. Half of these men were deists (Thomas Jefferson was their champion-he cut out all Scripture that involved God communicating in any way with man), and the other half of these men were born-again Christians. Your argument would have us believe that these men were all accursed and vile men rebelling against God. While that is up in debate, I would like to add this: In the French-Indian War (otherwise known as the Seven Years War, and sometimes known as World War 0), the French and their Native-American allies were ambushing a pack of British soldiers newly arrived from England. Since the British had their great bright coats of red, they were easy targets. They were also at a disadvantage because the British and French were used to fighting "gentleman's wars", where soldiers lined up shoulder-to-shoulder and fired in waves on the open field. However, the French and American colonists had adopted the Indian style of guerrilla warfare-so they were easy targets. Colonel George Washington warned his British superior of this before they marched into a forest, and when the ambush started, the commanding officers of the British regulars were killed. However, Washington took command and led his troops out of the forest, lest they die accomplishing nothing. There was so much gunfire around-the British were attacked from 3 sides-that Washington lost one of his horses. He grabbed another horse and continued the battle. Why do I bother telling you this? Because after the skirmish was over, Washington's men couldn't believe what they saw-Washington's uniform had at least four holes in it-that all led right to Washington's torso-and yet there was not a scratch on him. After the war, an Indian chief came to visit Washington and confessed to him when he found Washington that he had been amazed that this man was alive. he himself had shot him in the torso at that same battle. When he saw that Washington was untouched, he said aloud "Surely this man is protected by the Great Spirit, (Indian's main deity) we must go and meet this man" Why would God protect such a man if he knew he was going to lead a rebellion against him? Your thoughts? On oaths, the Jesus does not rule against oaths, he rules against swearing by something that we do not have full control over, meaning nothing. Jesus says that we should swear BY nothing. And Matthew 5:34, look at the context!! Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: "34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." Jesus is talking about when someone accuses you of lying, do not say "I swear!" because we shouldn't have to swear to prove our honesty. When someone whose testimony is ridiculed or questions, the person will often say "I swear!" or, "I swear to God!" Jesus is rebuking this on two fields: -Do not swear by anything -Do not have a doubtable reputation of honesty that you have to swear to prove your innocence/honesty Ecclesiastes 5:4 "When thou vowest a vow unto (not by God, UNTO GOD, my note) God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed." |
Wow Craig...
I have just perused all the posts you have made so far on the Forum... Sounds like you are a person that likes to "tell it like it is". Not many like you around nowadays in Christianity...Last time I read your style of approach was in the Gospels when Jesus told it like it was. No tickling of our ears from you...quite refeshing actually. Looking forward to more of your posts to keep me stimulated to study God's word!! Pilgrim |
Bro. John:
Please take time to read my post on The God of this World, under doctrine. We agree on so many issues. Thanks Bro. Danny |
John 1717
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According to James God does not test saints. God's word says He tempts (tests) no one James 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. In this day, God looks upon our hearts, He knows who are truly His. John 10:27 He does not have to test those in whom He gave the earnest of the Holy Spirit, He already knows. Are we (who are saved) truly saints of the most High God? Well I know for certain that we are the righteousness of God >>>>>>>>>>2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. That's pretty close to sainthood. In fact we're called "Saints" in several places. >>>>>>>>>2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day...........http://www.praize.com/members/Commun...0227782249.gif........Grace |
Actually, Grace the Bible does teach God tests/tempts/tries His people - however, the verse in James says, He does not tempt anyone with evil. He tries and proves us - puts us to the test to see how we will do (for our benefit, not for His), to teach us, to bring to pass His will in our lives; whereas Satan tries/tempts believers with evil to make them fall into sin, turn from the Lord, stumble in their faith, etc.
James 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, By comparing this passage with Genesis 22, it is obvious God was the one testing/tempting Abraham - to show Abraham (and those who would later come to learn of these events) what was in his heart. The words "tempt(ed)" and "tried" are the exact same words in Greek. |
Jerry, would you please provide me with examples of God tempting (trying) Christians.
Thanks, Grace |
Sure can:
Job 23:8-10 Behold, I go forward, but he is not there; and backward, but I cannot perceive him: On the left hand, where he doth work, but I cannot behold him: he hideth himself on the right hand, that I cannot see him: But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. Psalms 66:10 For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried. (Proved here means "to test.") Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (This is God testing/tempting the whole world during the Tribulation, to see whether they will follow Christ or the Antichrist.) I am sure there are more verses, but this are the ones that I could find quickly. Based on their contexts, I know they are referring to God testing or tempting us (but not with evil, as James states). There are many other verses about God trying or proving us - which carries some of the same idea, but it also includes the idea of seeing what is already in us (so you could argue whether those are referring to God putting us through a test, or merely examining us thoroughly). |
With respect for your effort, I asked for Christians, not Israelites and the world.
Grace, ...... http://www.praize.com/members/Commun...0228115157.gif |
Job was neither. The Bible teaches that God tests believers - it doesn't matter whether they are OT believers or NT believers. That is true of both.
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Jerry,
You speak as if you know. A mere woman could not argue with that. Grace http://www.praize.com/members/Commun...0174445401.gif |
You sound to have some hostility towards the founders of our country. The trtail of blood of those who stood for their belief in Gods Word can be traced all the way back to beforethe Nation of Isreal. When God put this nation together it was without a king. God was the king and man decided that they wanted a man king. How many times did God use this nation for battle. This was part of their preperation for Canaan. Bible believers were persecuted throughout all of Europe. Men like Christopher Columbus believed in the freedom of religion as well as we find they believed in Gods Word. The mayFlower was full of Bible believers looking to find a place to worship God freely. Upon arrival they believed as well that this land did not belong to them and the occupiers were entitled to the value of the land desired. We know that as Europe learned of what they felt was free land they were entitled their share. Along with Europe came the "Church" and again began banashing any religion they seemed could oppose their tryanny. There were many who felt this land did not belong to the countries of Europe and stood against it. Are you implying that the founders of our country sould just have rolled over and took what England said. Your history is wacked. Just like I am sure you feel that we should not take a stand against terrorism. God does work with nations and their military. Hope your on the right side.
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Beltfed,
May I ask to whom you are speaking? Your reply to whoever doesn't make sense. Both Jerry & I are not of your country and I can assure you that we pray with you, "God Bless America". Well, I think Jerry would. Grace :) |
Christopher Columbus was NOT a follower of God. He was a reedy tyrant. He is resposible for the deaths of so many Indians. Where he went, populations of Indians decreased to only a tenth. They worked the Indians and made them find gold, and if they did not find gold, they would whip them. One every ffew years, the men and wives could meet, but they were so exausted in every way that they did not pro-create. Columbus was no Christian.
The colonists acknowledged that they were the subordinates of England-Jamestown was officially founded in the name of King James I (King james of the AV). The colonists paid tribute to England, and we were protected by them, and we were forced to pay taxes that were, while brutal, not nearly as bad as the taxes those in London had to pay. |
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....................................what does that mean? QUOTE] What's your point? That ungodly men founded this country? Yes that's true That God did not use this for his purpose? Yes he did That the USA is an ungodly nation? Yes that's true When Jesus said "if you love me keep my commandments" he is saying "keep my words unchanged." We are to obey those in power over us for one reason. God put them in power to further his own will even though they may be lost vile men. We are to trust in him not man whether king or not. The good that came from the founding of this nation is the people he has called out to worship him in spirit and truth. Thus far it has been a safe haven for his people, but it might not always be so. |
This is why us Anabaptists refrain from any participation in the political process (we always say that we do our voting on our knees) and do not allow those serving in the military to become or remain members of our churches. We believe we are sojourners/pilgrims in this world. We serve the 'king' by paying our taxes, but we will never consent to be involved in the taking of human life. There is to much at stake, and we've learned (just read the account of the 16th century Anabaptists) that when we invovle ourselves with mans government (by not participating in state churches, and the other parts of the political process) that our blood is at stake. Although we are not afraid to take upon ourselves this baptism of blood, for the blood of the martyr's is seed, we are afraid that our witness will be ruined by our getting involved in a poltical process that is not governed by our King, nor one that is of our Kingdom.
Much Love in Christ, Stephen |
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"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." Proverbs 6:16-19 |
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Much Love in Christ, Stephen |
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----- ---- ---- --- --- --- ------ ------ ----- ----- ------ Stephanos and anyone else of the "pacifists-goooodd/America-baaad" mentality: The very fact that you are in the State of Washington posting your stuff is because MEN in UNIFORM with WEAPONS have KILLED enemies of this Nation and our way of life (aka-The 1st Amendment to the Constitution). At the very least you and your group should do is show some concern and help out the Military folks and their families in your area. Christ Jesus NEVER told a Soldier to quit being a Soldier of his nation. The Old Testament is replete with accounts of The Lord God Almighty commanding the Israelites to assemble together (every able-bodied/sound-of-mind male) and to fight and kill the enemies of Israel! Do a "good work" and this week visit a V.A. Hospital or the Base Hospital at Ft. Lewis and bring a wounded/blinded soldier/vet a care package--or volunteer to read a book (The Psalms?) and thank people that are helping to keep the moslem jihadists away from your house... Read these links, if you don't think that a Christian can be a Soldier. Read them for some encouragement. http://www.infantryassn.com/awards.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Maurice |
The simplest answer to this argument is to point out that the only time the issue was directly addressed in the NT, and the opportunity to make it clear that believers were not to be soldiers, the instruction given speaks for itself.
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I'd like to suggest that you get to know me a bit more before you start right in with the defensive and a bit agressive responses to what I write. First of all, I never said America was bad (then again I'm not saying that they're good), nor did I claim to be a pacifist (pacifists are invovled in the political process, whereas someone that is non-resistant is not). I do believe that those in authority are servants of God and that God uses them to serve His purpose. I'm not sure how much more complicated I am able to make this. There is certainly no doubt that throughout history, those in authority have persecuted the children of God in extremely violent ways. The Mennonite have not, nor will we, forget what happened to us in the 16th century. We believe that it is not our job to tell God's servants how to do their job, and it is not their job to tell us how to be children of God. Another thing I'd like to point out is that I've never met a "moslem jihadist" and I would be lying if I said that hope I never do. I'd love to get a chance to meet one of these people to witness to them of my Father and Lord Jesus Christ. If I have to die in order for them to realize that my faith is indeed true, then so be it. I think it's important for you to realize that I do not agree with doing violent things to those I (or others) label the enemy. I believe that the only way to fight the enemy is by fighting the enemy in the way that my Master faught them, by being the servant of all, and being willing do die for those that are against me. Does this belief make me a complete fool in the eyes of the world (and many "Christians"), yes indeed it does. Truly I am a fool for Jesus Christ. Another thing that I'd like to note; I'd like to point out that those soldiers you speak of, whom have shed blood to 'protect me', I claim none of the blood they've spilled. Their enemies are NOT my enemies. Vengence belongs to the Lord. I hope you can read this without getting angry PB1789, and more than anything I hope you are able to understand that not everyone is going to agree with you all the time. And the way you respond to those that do disagree with you is an opportunity to show that the Spirit is living in you. Peace and Love PB1789 Quote:
Thank you for joining in. You've brought up a very good verse. However your conclusions do not make much sense. I'm not sure how a man could remain in an army and not do violence to others. There are two brothers in the Mennonite church I visit regularly that at some point in their service told their superiors that they would no longer do violence to others because of their belief in non-resistance and non-violence as taught by Jesus. One remained to do non-combatant service (this was before he became Mennonite) and the other felt he couldn't continue to assist in a war he felt was unjust. I do not think it unhonorable to obey God before men in this case. Quote:
So anywho, I'm glad you all took the time to share thoughts with me. I'd also like to point out that since PB1789 critisized the fact that Diligent allows people on this board to post "stuff' and I'm assuming he means me, I will leave if this is the desire of those that are in authority here. I do not wish to cause any of my brothers to stumble because of what I say and believe. Much Love in Christ, Stephen |
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I don't know what you mean by my tone. I'm just giving you an opportunity to support your position with Scripture. I don't think that's unreasonable or confrontational. When people set up rules, they have to justify those rules with Scripture. If they don't, it's nothing more than legalism. Paul wrote in detail about what constitutes excommunicable behavior, and as far as I know, he did not list military or police service. |
Stephanos questioned:
I'm not sure how a man could remain in an army and not do violence to others. |
(2nd try, time ran out)
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A question: Does your church permit police as members? The soldiers of John's day were also the police force. |
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I understand now your reasoning here. Concerning police, no, a police officer would not be allowed to be a member of any Anabaptist church, whether Amish, Conservative Mennonite, Old Order River Brethren, Old German Baptist Brethren, or Hutterite. You will notice that we all don't wear a mustache, and it is because of this very belief in non-resistance (the mustache was, and is, a symbol of pride and authority for most worldly folk. It was at one point worn by most officers in WW1, which was when the Amish and Mennonite began shaving it off). We don't believe that we belong in positions of authority over men that aren't of the brethren. We don't believe a child of God can exercise authority over the actions of men that do not serve Jesus Christ. I understand that to you baptists this seems rediculous. I'm not sure what I can tell you to explain this. Like I've said before, there are countless books on the Anabaptists, and YES there are biblical reasons for what we do. However I don't feel the Spirit guiding me to 'get into it' here with you all. I've spoken with baptists before about this, and you all are ever so staunch in your beliefs that Christians should be encouraged to serve 'their' country by killing the enemies of the nation they live in, whether or not those 'enemies' are devout Christians (heaven forbid). Since some of you think I'm an anti-American 'pacifist' I will refrain from these sort of discussions in the future. I don't see it bearing any fruit on these forums. I'm open to anyone truly curious about us via Private Message (I think my AIM, MSN, and ICQ account info is available on this site). To be honest I came to these forums because I truly feel all alone out here in Wenatchee (the nearest Anabaptist congregation is an hour away, and I struggle to get there because of financial and work related issues) in my beliefs that the KJB is the only preserved Words of God in the English language. I really need the fellowship of like minded Christians (in this regard), and don't want to get into debates concerning the various Anabaptist doctrines. I apologize if I've offended anyone. Much Love in Christ, Stephen |
Good post Diligent. He has skirted (avoided ?)the Biblical examples.
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Stephanos:--I don't want to get-to-know anyone that said in one of his posts on these boards that he wanted to leave America...{You will not be missed.}
I don't want to be pals with someone who ignores what Scripture teaches about Soldiers/police-law-enforcement officers/War , or that does not have facial hair---which again is what Biblical men have! You are living in a free country, but not willing to "pay-the-freight". You might want to see Paladin54's thread about war and read the many links I posted. |
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