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cpmac 03-21-2008 09:11 PM
evstevemd

Quote:
Anyway can Cpmac show me single scripture that first resurrection 1thes4:16-17 , 1cor15 and other scriptures that are for Israel and not the church? I know it refers to church (Jews and Gentiles), and not Israel. Can you show ne single scripture from rev1-22 or Daniel 1-12 to justify your claims.
I don't understand your question.

cpmac

cpmac 03-21-2008 09:23 PM
evstevemd

Quote:

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Cpmac,
the word "man" is the same used on Mat 8:28
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
so Just tell us how this man of sin[Antichrist] becomes satan?
Help me refresh my memory: Which post are you referring to?

cpmac

evstevemd 03-22-2008 07:59 AM
Here brother!
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpmac (Post 1799)
Evstevemd:



THE Antichrist was, and is, Satan himself. The KJV mostly refers to this Antichrist as a spirit, i.e., "it." But that was the MAIN Antichrist. John says that there appeared many Antichrists in his day, and that is how he knew it was the "last time." I believe that the "Last time" began about the time of the birth of Jesus, and ended after Israel's war with Rome in AD70, the last time, or the end time, or the last days, referring to the end of Israel. What do you think?

His final destruction is yet to come.

We are living in the "Millennial age," at the end of which Satan will be released for a little while, cause a lot of chaos, and then be destroyed by Christ. Does that make sense to you?



Consider the possibility that the Bible, OT and NT, was written by the Jews, for the Jews, and mostly about the Jews. We learn from it, but it was intended largely for Israel.
You say the Lord has not yet descended. I have been taught the same thing by teachers who didn't see Him descend, nor did they not see Him descend- they just don't know. But the Jews might have seen Him, no one else needed to. Remember, when He came the first time, He came to His own people, the Jews. Although God's ultimate purpose was to bring salvation to all mankind, we Gentiles at that time were sort of on the sidelines as far as all the action was concerned.

The resurrection happened, and even our dispensational teachers agree that there is a separate resurrection for the OT Israelites. But they connect that to that future "great tribulation," which is a hoax. I believe that they got it partly right, except that their timing of the tribulation is way off base - by at least 2000 years. The Great Tribulation Christ spoke of in Matthew, Mark, and Luke happened in the past, not in the future.

WE haven't been raptured, but the first century saved Jews were. Paul expected to be raptured, and he was a great deal more knowledgeable than any of us, or any of our dispensational teachers. He was a Jew, part of God's Family. Christ came unto His own, as we see in the Gospel of John. He didn't come to them because they were Jews like Himself - when He came, He wasn't a Jew; He didn't become a Jew until after He got here. He came to them because they were of His own Family, the Family of God. That's why He called them His own.

So, Paul expected to be raptured with many of the other Jews, and Jesus said that all those things the Bible spoke of would happen to that same generation He was speaking to. The Liberals, who missed the point that the rapture could have applied only to the Jews, thought Jesus was mistaken. We needn't think that, just because we didn't see it, it didn't happen. When a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there, I can guarantee that it makes a noise, whether anyone hears it or not.

Want to get unconfused? Avoid commentaries, prophecy teachers, and modern translations. Read the KJV over and over. After ten years or less, the facts will begin to form a picture. It took me twenty-five, but I'm slow.

cpmac

www.tribulationhoax.com
www.biblefacts.net
Here is where I'm reffering

cpmac 03-23-2008 08:55 AM
Evstevemd:
The man of sin is not a man who becomes Satan. He is Satan all along. He is THE Antichrist. He is against Christ, and always will be. John saw many antichrists in his day. These were the Jews (and possibly Gentiles) who saw Him do all the miracles, heard Him teach, saw Him raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and so forth, yet because of an evil heart, refused to acknowledge that He was the Son of God. They were the many Antichrists. They were the children of disobedience in whom the spirit of iniquity was working. The "spirit of iniquity" was the spirit of Antichrist.

The Antichrist didn't become Satan, he was Satan.

evstevemd 03-23-2008 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpmac (Post 2121)
Evstevemd:
The man of sin is not a man who becomes Satan. He is Satan all along. He is THE Antichrist. He is against Christ, and always will be. John saw many antichrists in his day. These were the Jews (and possibly Gentiles) who saw Him do all the miracles, heard Him teach, saw Him raise people from the dead, heal the sick, and so forth, yet because of an evil heart, refused to acknowledge that He was the Son of God. They were the many Antichrists. They were the children of disobedience in whom the spirit of iniquity was working. The "spirit of iniquity" was the spirit of Antichrist.

The Antichrist didn't become Satan, he was Satan.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Cpmac,
the word "man" is the same used on Mat 8:28
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

Just show me where is satan here? Bible says man you say satan :confused: I'm confused with your teaching Cpmac. Reconsider your teachings!!

jerry 03-23-2008 12:10 PM
1 John deals with the spirit of antichrist, which was even in existence in the first century. 2 Thessalonians deals with the man who becomes THE Antichrist, the one-world leader opposed to God who sets himself up as God and institutes the mark of the beast. This is the man that the book of Revelation refers to as the beast. 2 Thessalonians (which refers to him as the son of perdition, the same title Judas had when possessed by Satan) and Revelation 12 also teach/imply that this man will become possessed by Satan at the halfway point of the tribulation (3 1/2 year point), when Satan no longer has access to Heaven to accuse the brethren before God, so he goes on a rampage against all the Jews and those that got saved during the tribulation.

evstevemd 03-23-2008 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry (Post 2128)
1 John deals with the spirit of antichrist, which was even in existence in the first century. 2 Thessalonians deals with the man who becomes THE Antichrist
Amen and Amen brother Jerry:D

cpmac 03-25-2008 08:03 AM
Jerry:

Quote:
1 John deals with the spirit of antichrist, which was even in existence in the first century. 2 Thessalonians (which refers to him as the son of perdition, the same title Judas had when possessed by Satan) and Revelation 12 also teach/imply that this man will become possessed by Satan at the halfway point of the tribulation (3 1/2 year point), when Satan no longer has access to Heaven to accuse the brethren before God, so he goes on a rampage against all the Jews and those that got saved during the tribulation.

Quote:
2 Thessalonians deals with the man who becomes THE Antichrist, the one-world leader opposed to God who sets himself up as God and institutes the mark of the beast. This is the man that the book of Revelation refers to as the beast.
The reality of a future seven year "Great Tribulation" cannot be proved from the Scriptures. It was made up by dispensationalists to give false substance to a futuristic agenda which on the surface exalts the present-day "Jews," but in fact decieves them into believing that they have a future in a glorified nation without the need to believe in Christ. (That is the worst kind of anti-Semitism.) The name of it was borrowed from Christ's words in Matthew 24, and the length (seven years) was extracted from Daniel's prophecy of Christ's one week ministry on earth, which was cut short by the crucifixion.

"Beast" is mentioned about 155 times in Scripture. In most cases, it refers to an actual animal, although in some prophetic passages it may refer to a kingdom or empire, but not, to my knowledge, a human being.


Quote:
Revelation 12 also teach/imply that this man will become possessed by Satan at the halfway point of the tribulation (3 1/2 year point), when Satan no longer has access to Heaven to accuse the brethren before God, so he goes on a rampage against all the Jews and those that got saved during the tribulation.
I cannot find the man who will become possessed by Satan in Revelation 12. Did you have some other passage in mind?

You are correct that Revelation 12 speaks of Satan having been cast out of heaven, and having no more access. However, I believe that dispensationalism, which teaches that, may have the timing wrong. Notice verse 10, "...a loud voice in saying in heaven, Now is come salvation,and strength, and the kingdom of God, and the power of His Christ." Satan, therefore, was cast out of heaven at the time salvation came, and that was after the cross. The kingdom and Christ's power came shortly after the cross. That will not happen again in the future.

Quote:
all the Jews and those that got saved during the tribulation
The Jews did get saved during the tribulation, but that tribulation was the time of testing and purifying the believers, which ended just before the second tribulation began about 66AD, not the future "seven year Great Tribulation," which is a creation of futurists.

Rev. 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

The "beast" is not a man who becomes "Antichrist." He is the devil himself. Only spirit beings are cast into, and then released from, the bottomless pit.

cpmac
http://www.tribulationhoax.com
www.biblefacts.net

evstevemd 03-25-2008 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpmac (Post 2271)
Jerry:






The reality of a future seven year "Great Tribulation" cannot be proved from the Scriptures. It was made up by dispensationalists to give false substance to a futuristic agenda which on the surface exalts the present-day "Jews," but in fact decieves them into believing that they have a future in a glorified nation without the need to believe in Christ. (That is the worst kind of anti-Semitism.) The name of it was borrowed from Christ's words in Matthew 24, and the length (seven years) was extracted from Daniel's prophecy of Christ's one week ministry on earth, which was cut short by the crucifixion.

"Beast" is mentioned about 155 times in Scripture. In most cases, it refers to an actual animal, although in some prophetic passages it may refer to a kingdom or empire, but not, to my knowledge, a human being.




I cannot find the man who will become possessed by Satan in Revelation 12. Did you have some other passage in mind?

You are correct that Revelation 12 speaks of Satan having been cast out of heaven, and having no more access. However, I believe that dispensationalism, which teaches that, may have the timing wrong. Notice verse 10, "...a loud voice in saying in heaven, Now is come salvation,and strength, and the kingdom of God, and the power of His Christ." Satan, therefore, was cast out of heaven at the time salvation came, and that was after the cross. The kingdom and Christ's power came shortly after the cross. That will not happen again in the future.



The Jews did get saved during the tribulation, but that tribulation was the time of testing and purifying the believers, which ended just before the second tribulation began about 66AD, not the future "seven year Great Tribulation," which is a creation of futurists.

Rev. 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

The "beast" is not a man who becomes "Antichrist." He is the devil himself. Only spirit beings are cast into, and then released from, the bottomless pit.

cpmac
http://www.tribulationhoax.com
www.biblefacts.net
Hello Cpmac I better end here! You do spritualize everything. I wonder why didn't you spiritualize birth and life of Jesus

cpmac 03-25-2008 03:59 PM
EvSteveMd:

Quote:
"...I better end here! You do spritualize everything. I wonder why didn't you spiritualize birth and life of Jesus"
I've heard the term, "spiritualize," quite often since I became a Christian. I always thought that by spiritualizing, one makes the Bible read something else than what it says. But you seem to have a different view. What, exactly, does it mean to "spiritualize?"

cpmac
http://www.tribulationhoax.com
http://www.biblefacts.net

cpmac 03-28-2008 03:05 PM
Although I am not totally certain what dispensationalists mean by "spiritualizing Scripture," here is an example of what I suspect it means:

Revelation 4:1-2 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."

The Dispensational Bible teacher quotes this Scripture, and writes, "John is being taken up into heaven. Inasmuch as John was the last remaining apostle and a member of the Universal Church, his elevation to heaven is a picture of the Rapture of the Church just before the Tribulation begins." (Tim LaHaye, page 99, Revelation Unveiled.)

But who says that this is a picture of the rapture of the Church? Only the futurist scholar.
John was called, and immediately he, and he alone, found himself in the spirit in heaven. The Bible says nothing about the Church being raptured at that time. In fact, dispensationalists repeatedly harp on the fact that the Church is not mentioned any more until much later in Revelation. But if John's elevation into heaven was a picture of the rapture of the Church, it would seem odd if no one mentioned the Church at least once during all the visions that John saw. Could it be that this has nothing to do with any rapture of the Church?

This, in my opinion, is a clear-cut case of man spiritualizing Scripture, but the ones doing the spiritualizing are the dispensationalists, themselves.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

jerry 03-28-2008 04:39 PM
It is not spiritualizing Scripture - but may seem that way if you don't know why they arrived at that conclusion. Revelation one states this:

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

1) The things which thou hast seen - John's vision of Christ in chapter one.
2) The things which are - the seven churches, representing the church age according to the order of the letters, chapters 2-3.
3) The things which shall be hereafter - chapter 4 onwards, the events of the Tribulation and afterwards.

Chapter four starts with this:

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is after the church age - which would correspond with the church being raptured. When compared with 1 Thessalonians 4, you can see the language is similar.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Certainly there are some similarities - even if you do not think John's being called to Heaven pictures the rapture, Biblically it certainly fits the timing of the rapture.

cpmac 03-28-2008 09:32 PM
Jerry:
Quote:
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is after the church age - which would correspond with the church being raptured. When compared with 1 Thessalonians 4, you can see the language is similar.
The word "hereafter" simply means "after this moment of time." It might be only moments later, or months later, or years later, and must be determined by the context. But nothing in Scripture dictates that it will be after the present church-age.

cpmac
http://www.tribulatonhoax.com

Buythetruth 03-29-2008 07:03 PM
FYI
 
A Preterist is one who uses "Gnosis" and "Allegory" to derive their interptetation of scripture. The literal meaning of scripture is of little use as the scriptures are to be spiritually understood. They believe they have an advanced understanding given by God for their pursuit of "wisdom" and "knowledge." This is their means of salvation. They will often tell you they were once where you are now (they believe they have advanced to a 'higher' plane of understanding).

As far as 'spiritualizing' the scriptures goes - this is what they do. I might add that there is no one individual who has the absolute interpretation of scripture. They all have an interpretation that is very impressive, scholarly and seems to cover every aspect. The problem is that they all have an interpretation and they all don't agree with each other. The literal context is not improtant either. Thus - a private interpretation!

An example of 'spiritualizing' would be as follows:

In 1st John 4:2 we have Jesus coming in the flesh. We understand that is in his literal flesh. He shared flesh like we share flesh. Preterist believe (at least some do, especially the 'full blown' type) Jesus came in the flesh too -only not HIS flesh, but YOUR flesh. This way it is 'spiritual' to them - not literal.

Continual dialog is usually fruitless.

Hope this is of some use.

Buythetruth

evstevemd 03-31-2008 11:49 PM
Here it is
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpmac (Post 2306)
EvSteveMd:



I've heard the term, "spiritualize," quite often since I became a Christian. I always thought that by spiritualizing, one makes the Bible read something else than what it says. But you seem to have a different view. What, exactly, does it mean to "spiritualize?"

cpmac
http://www.tribulationhoax.com
http://www.biblefacts.net
I meant to change physical/literal things to be of spiritual realm. Example millenium, rapture...and Jesus birth are Both literal, but they tend to change it
some to spiritual. If bible states Antichrist is "Man" of sin, How could you say He is satan? :confused:

Ev. Steve :p

cpmac 04-02-2008 09:19 AM
evstevemd :

Quote:
If bible states Antichrist is "Man" of sin, How could you say He is satan?
Satan is referred to in many verses as "he," or "him." To say that he is "man" is not a great leap.

Now, my question: What is the "falling away" that must come when he is revealed?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com.

jerry 04-02-2008 01:04 PM
Satan is an angel, not a man. He will possess the Antichrist - but that does not make him the Antichrist or vice-versa.

evstevemd 04-02-2008 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry (Post 2805)
Satan is an angel, not a man. He will possess the Antichrist - but that does not make him the Antichrist or vice-versa.
Right brother,
Man of sin not angel of sin!

Ev. Steve:D

cpmac 04-03-2008 06:04 AM
Is the devil a "man?" The Scriptures refer to Satan, the devil, as "he,"
or "him." Job 2:1; Matt. 12:26; Mrk. 3:26; Luke 11:18; Luke 22:31; and many more verses refer to Satan in the masculine gender. So at least we know that Satan is not female. In John 8:14, The Lord Jesus Christ said that he was the father of the wicked men in Israel, and also the father of lies.

John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

So, if the Bible can say that Satan is the father of certain people, and we understand that it's all metaphoric, is it so difficult to imagine that the Bible can also refer to him as a "man of sin," even though we all know that he is angelic in nature?

In 2 Thes. 2:4, it says that this "man of sin" exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped: so the he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Now, this so-called Antichrist, as described by dispensational futurists, is supposed to be the handywork of Satan. He is his his protege, his "right-hand man," and so forth. The one thing a subordinate dare not do is upstage his master, if his master is Satan. "Sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God," is something Satan himself tried; I doubt if he would let any of his flunkies get by with it.

It could be that Paul was not telling us what this "man of sin" was going to do in the future, he might have been merely telling us who this "man of sin" really was by describing some of his past history:

Isaiah 14:12-14 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

You insist that he is a man, but it is interesting that no less an authority than J.Dwight Pentecost lists one of this Antichrist's names as "Angel of the Bottomless Pit." (Things To Come, p 334). This supposedly human being was locked up in the "bottonless pit," a metaphor for the imprisonment of spiritual beings.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

jerry 04-03-2008 10:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpmac (Post 2875)
Now, this so-called Antichrist, as described by dispensational futurists, is supposed to be the handywork of Satan. He is his his protege, his "right-hand man," and so forth. The one thing a subordinate dare not do is upstage his master, if his master is Satan. "Sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God," is something Satan himself tried; I doubt if he would let any of his flunkies get by with it.
The Bible is pretty clear who is doing this.

Quote:
It could be that Paul was not telling us what this "man of sin" was going to do in the future, he might have been merely telling us who this "man of sin" really was by describing some of his past history:
Why do you wing it on your Bible interpretation. Paul is describing what is going to happen some day. Some Christians were upset because they thought he had already come, but Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians to set them straight.

The devil hasn't already set himself up in the temple.

Quote:
You insist that he is a man, but it is interesting that no less an authority than J.Dwight Pentecost lists one of this Antichrist's names as "Angel of the Bottomless Pit." (Things To Come, p 334).
Pentecost was wrong on many things. This passage also teaches he was a man under the influence of the Devil and was not the Devil:

Revelation 13:1-2 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The dragon is stated to be the Devil in chapter 12.

cpmac 04-03-2008 02:11 PM
Jerry wrote:
Quote:
"Why do you wing it on your Bible interpretation. Paul is describing what is going to happen some day. Some Christians were upset because they thought he had already come, but Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians to set them straight."
I didn't make it clear that by "future" I meant that far off future (2000 or more years). You're right. Paul was describing what was to happen some day. But that "some day" was closer to the end time of Israel (AD70) rather than some arbitrary time period thousands of years in the future..

Jerry wrote:
Quote:
"Some Christians were upset because they thought he had already come, but Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians to set them straight."
Slight error: the Christians weren't upset thinking that the Day of Christ had already come;
They were all shook up thinking that the Day was near ("at hand" according to the correct Bible). If the Day of Christ, the Day of the Lord, i.e., the Great Tribulation Jesus spoke about in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, had already come, believe me, they would have known about it. They would have had no need to ask Paul anything.

Jerry wrote:
Quote:
"The devil hasn't already set himself up in the temple."
This is a dispensational concoction. The legitimate Bible doesn't say that the devil is ever going to set himself up in the temple.


Jerry wrote:
Quote:
"Pentecost was wrong on many things. This passage also teaches he was a man under the influence of the Devil and was not the Devil:"
We agree on at least one thing: Pentecost and his cohorts were wrong on many things.
I'm not sure which passage you're referring to, but yes. Any time the Bible speaks of man and the devil in the same breath, so to speak, usually the man is under the influence of the devil. Sometimes the devil cannot be distinguished from the man, and vice versa.

Jerry wrote:
Quote:
Revelation 13:1-2 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

The dragon is stated to be the Devil in chapter 12.
Quite true. But the beast rising up out of the sea is not the "Antichrist." This beast was
the Roman Empire. The ten horns were the same as the "ten toes" in Daniel. They were the smaller kingdoms which Rome had conquered in the past, and of which the empire was made of . And true indeed. It was a heathen nation, God used it to judge Israel for its wickedness and unbelief, and the Dragon gave it his power (long story).

Did you notice something else(it has nothing to do with our discussion) in Revelation 12?
The dragon and his angels were kicked out of heaven at about the time Jesus brought salvation to the world, received all power in the universe, and the kingdom of God was set up. Scofield, charter member of dispensationalism, really got that one wrong.

The chief reason I know futurism is wrong is because the Lord Jesus Christ said so in Luke 21:22, "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." The "days of vengeance" was the destructon of the temple, the city, and the nation in AD70. There are therefore, no specific O.T. prophecies which were not fulfilled before that date.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

jerry 04-03-2008 02:19 PM
Quote:
You're right. Paul was describing what was to happen some day. But that "some day" was closer to the end time of Israel (AD70) rather than some arbitrary time period thousands of years in the future..
Unless you totally spiritualize and explain away the literal reading of the book of Revelation, there is no way you can arrive at the conclusion that the events already happened in the first century.

Quote:
"The devil hasn't already set himself up in the temple."

This is a dispensational concoction. The legitimate Bible doesn't say that the devil is ever going to set himself up in the temple.
I guess you can't make up your mind then, because YOU stated this:

Quote:
"Sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God," is something Satan himself tried; I doubt if he would let any of his flunkies get by with it.

cpmac 04-03-2008 03:32 PM
Quote:
Isaiah 14:12-14 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
I may be wrong, but I say that Paul was talking about the above Scripture.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

jerry 04-04-2008 05:36 AM
Paul doesn't refer to a throne - but to the temple. He is referring to Daniel 9 and 11 - which Jesus also refers to in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 - as a future event that had not happened yet.

cpmac 04-04-2008 06:14 AM
Quote:
Paul doesn't refer to a throne - but to the temple. He is referring to Daniel 9 and 11 - which Jesus also refers to in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 - as a future event that had not happened yet.
Jerry, I think that you're splitting hairs; it's not so much what he sat on, but that he makes himself to be God. The overall language of Isaiah 14 and Paul is similar enough.

Daniel could not have prophesied anything to happen after AD70, which was the "days of vengeance" Jesus spoke about in Luke 21:22, "when all things which are written shall be fulfilled." What wasn't fulfilled by then is not going to be fulfilled, the Old Testament notwithstanding.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

jerry 04-04-2008 06:59 AM
Could not have? Well, apparently he did, but you refuse to accept it because it doesn't fit your pre-conceived theology. Jesus referred to Daniel 9 (and several other places):

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

This next part was a type of the Antichrist (this is referring to Antiochus Epiphanes) - which was not fulfilled in the OT because Jesus still referred to it as a future event:

Daniel 8:11-14 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Luke 21 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, Matthew 24 and Mark 13 refer to the endtime Tribulation period - there are certain things in those chapters that have not happened yet, including the 7 year Tribulation itself, the peace treaty with Israel, the desecration of the temple by the Antichrist - which Paul refers to as a yet future event. There is NO record of a one-world leader desecrating the temple with an idol of himself in AD 70, nor of the mark of the beast being established worldwide - nor of the seals, trumpets, and vials being poured out worldwide. Armageddon has not happened, the devil has not been cast into the bottomless pit or even into the Lake of fire yet, Christ is not physically reigning from Jerusalem yet. It is just wishful thinking to think otherwise.

cpmac 04-04-2008 07:44 AM
Quote:
Matthew 24 and Mark 13 refer to the endtime Tribulation period - there are certain things in those chapters that have not happened yet, including the 7 year Tribulation itself, the peace treaty with Israel, the desecration of the temple by the Antichrist - which Paul refers to as a yet future event.
It looks as it I waded in too deep! Explain to me in detail how the seven year tribulation came about. Where did the name "Great Tribulation" come from, and also the seven year duration?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Willie 04-04-2008 09:23 AM
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Week = years in this context

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

This could be 7 years, or only 3 1/2 years since Revelation deals with the last 3 1/2 years of the tribulation, God's judgment. See next 2 verses:

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


Just a sample of tribulation references, and where the 7 years comes from.

Willie 04-04-2008 09:25 AM
Great Tribulation:

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

cpmac 04-04-2008 10:19 AM
Willie wrote:
Quote:
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
According to dispensational futurism (and other Pre-mils) this "he" is the Antichrist who will make a "firm" covenant with Israel in the beginning of the "Tribulation." Then in the midst of the tribulation (three and a half years) he will sit down in the temple and declare himself to be God, and ending the sacrifice and oblation. That will be the "abomination of desolation," initiating the second half of the Tribulation, "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." Now all the actions in this verse are by the same person, the famous "he" of Daniel 9:27. And this, we are told, is the Antichrist, who is the very embodiment of abominations.

But the verse says that, "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate." But who can believe that this wicked, evil, abominable, Antichrist will have such an attack of righteousness that he will desolate the temple, or city, or whatever, because of all their abominations? That does not fit his character at all. And what is the "consummation?"

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Willie 04-04-2008 04:22 PM
Quote: cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

Does this mean you don't even believe in the tribulation? If that is so, I have no answer for you.

cpmac 04-04-2008 04:32 PM
Willie:

You must have misread my post. The question I asked had nothing to do with whether I believe in the Tribulation (I, in fact, believe in two tribulations). It was about who confirmed the covenant with many in Israel. If you enlighten me as to how the Antichrist can be righteous enough to desolate Jerusalem for all their abominations, then we can begin to figure out whether all this is past or future.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com.

jerry 04-04-2008 04:52 PM
It certainly wasn't Jesus who made that covenant referred to in that verse. Jesus warned Israel against that time.

Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The people of the prince to come will destroy Jerusalem and the temple - that is the Roman Empire that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Jesus is saying a ruler from that same empire is going to desecrate the endtimes temple - the abomination of desolation, as Jesus called it.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Isaiah 28:14-20 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

Willie 04-04-2008 05:01 PM
The "righteousness" of the antichrist will be feigned. So, people will buy into his lie.

Willie 04-04-2008 05:02 PM
...sorry for misreading your post. You believe in 2 tribulations? I'm interested to learn more.

cpmac 04-04-2008 05:37 PM
Jerry:

Quote:
Isaiah 28:14-20 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
Interpret, please. To what event do you connect this?

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

cpmac 04-04-2008 07:02 PM
Willie:
Quote:
The "righteousness" of the antichrist will be feigned. So, people will buy into his lie.
If he desolates the city, who is going to be around to buy into his lie.?

cpmac 04-04-2008 07:03 PM
Willie:

I'll come back later on the two tribulations.

cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

cpmac 04-04-2008 08:38 PM
Willie:
I believe that there were two tribulations in the time fo Christ 2000 years ago. The first one was relatively mild, and was a time of trial, to prove the faith of all those who professed belief in Christ.

When Christ first came to earth, not everyone received Him. But those who did, to them He gave power to become sons of God. Notice that just by receiving Him, believing in Him, did not make them children of God; He only gave them power to become sons of God. First they would have to endure a time of testing, if they passed, then they would be saved.

Matt. 24:13 “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Some theologians think that this means “they will be physically rescued out of the midst of the future Tribulation,” which doesn’t make sense, because if they are rescued before the tribulation is over, then they don’t “endure to the end.”

Rev. 3:5 gives evidence that this is soul salvation, and not physical rescue:
Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

They have to overcome the devil: Rev 12:11 “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

This was a time of trial. The bible calls it a tribulation, and also it is called the Baptism of Fire. I don’t know how long it lasted, but it ended just before the time of judgement, the Great Tribulation, the invasion of Jerusalem by Rome, begain.

Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

Immediately after that fist tribulation, the tribulation of testing was over, the tribulation of judgement began.

You can find more about this on my website, www.tribulationhoax.com. And “Baptism of fire.”

Cpmac
www.tribulationhoax.com

evstevemd 04-06-2008 07:48 PM
preterism?Click here


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