Sabbath observance
 

Hello folks, new to this forum but not the Bible and I know I can find an answer to my question which at 66, has really been on my mind, why?

Can someone justify through Scripture (not through fallen man) for not observing the Sabbath on the seventh day? I don't find it, I have found lots of Scripture twisting going on but I haven't found any true justification. This is serious business since it is in the Commandments. Ignorance may be one thing, but willful disobedience is not acceptable.

So now, if in fact this Commandment should be observed (since it is, after all, a Commandment), then how? I'm really searching here so let us reason together. ;)


Blessings to all,
Ron

You say this is a question on your mind, but it sure sounds like you've already made up your mind about it.

Exodus 31:12-18 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

1. Are you part of Israel?
2. Would you put your children to death for not obeying the Sabbath?
3. Have you ever read Colossians chapter 2 or Romans chapter 14?

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

No Brandon, don't be so quick to get personal, I'm ASKING for some Scripture here, okay? Some sound reasoning, some calm reasoning, some DISCOURSE, I'm not taking any position but this has certainly been on my mind and don't think this issue hasn't been taken up by other scholars and is coming back. Not so much in the legalistic sense either but as one of the commandments to be observed so if you don't mind take a breath.

RonB, welcome to the forum!

Christians do not keep the sabbath because Christians are not under the law!
Christians are not law keepers, and the law is not a "salad bar" from which we can pick and choose what we like! If we tried to keep part of the law we would have to keep ALL of it, law keepers are UNDER A CURSE as we read here (caps mine):

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in ALL THINGS which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the CURSE of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit THROUGH FAITH." --Gal 3:10-14

RonB, the law is a schoolmaster designed to drive men to Christ, when we come to Christ, God writes his law in our hearts...

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. But after that faith is come, we are NO LONGER under a schoolmaster."--Gal. 3:24-25

Here is a quick link to Galations chapter 3 so you can read it and see the entire context, ask God to show you the truth from His Word, hope this helps:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...203;&version=9

I gave you Scripture. Consider the verses I quoted, and the other passages I referenced. We are not under the law.

Your initial post does not read at all like a sincere question. It reads as though you want people to justify themselves to you. We have been down this road a dozen times on the forum -- someone comes in, pretends to ask a sincere question, but their whole point is to defend a hobbyhorse issue. Your very first post preemptively accuses people who respond to it of being "scripture twisters."

I would be happy to be proved wrong about the reason for your post. What are your thoughts on the verses I showed you that prove the Sabbath is for Israel, and that we are not to be concerned with what holy days each other keeps?

A more reasonable question would be

"What Biblical evidence is there for observing ANY Sabbath day, whether the sixth or seventh day, or any other holyday, by the New Testament Christian".

There Luke, you have it, a better formulated question and thank you Bro Parrish for a reasoned and calm reply. I didn't come on this forum to be flamed, my question is sincere, I have no guile. I tried various searches because I knew beyond a doubt that this subject must have been discussed many times on this forum but I wasn't able to come up with anything.

Diligent, you need to be more restrained on the trigger my friend with that sort of jugular approach you may run off a truth seeker that is having difficulties. I've been through much so I have a thick skin but I appreciate CIVIL DISCOURSE.

Thank you,
Ron

Welcome to these forums Ron, may God bless your time here!

I believe Bro. Diligent quoted some very relevant scriptures to your question in post #2, and I would like to hear what you think about them?

RonB,

consider these scriptures ask which commandments are missing from the OT Ten commandments given to Israel. in the following verse.

Romans 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

you notice Paul only mentions certain commandments in regard to the Body of Christ. and he doesn't mention the sabbath at all.

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Paul doesn't' even advocate a Sabbath day for the Body of Christ but lets that stand by their own conscience as to what day they consider holy.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

Now if a man wants to observe a Sabbath (Saturday) then let him do so but he is not to judge another who does not observe the Sabbath and vise versa. Some people out their teach that if you don't worship on the Sabbath your not saved. even as far as to say if you worship on Sunday you have the mark of the beast. Their Problem is they are judging others and Paul says let them not do so

Be at peace brother RonB and let your heart tell you what day to observe. I personally worship everyday. Now concerning physical rest. you need one day of rest a week. this is a scientifically proven fact. you can work 16 hour days for 6 days, which is exhausting) but if you physically rest one day in 7 you can fully physically recharge.

one last verse for you to consider it is who is the law (ten commandments) for?

Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

the law is given to Israel not to Gentiles or the church age saints today.

Read also Acts 15. the Jewish Apostles state that not even their fathers could keep the Law so why should they burden the Gentile to do so? And they agreed not to lay the burden of the law on Gentiles but suggested they refrain from 4 things fornication, strangled animals, pollutions of Idols and from consuming or shedding blood.

I hope that helps you to see under the New Testament of our Lord Jesus Christ the body of Christ which is made up largely by Gentiles is under no requirement to keep the law of Exodus 20 given to the Jews except where it agrees with Paul's teaching.

I'm more than happy to drop this, but since you keep trying to admonish me, allow me to demonstrate why I did not regard your original post as a sincere question by underlining parts of your initial post:

Your question was full of things you have already determined are true (ie, "This IS serious, since IT IS, willful disobedience." Add to that the implication that people who do not observe the Sabbath are "scripture twisting" and it's hard to imagine what exactly the "question" is -- it reads like a demand to defend.

And you've gone several posts now without commenting on all the scripture that has been provided -- are we here to reason amongst ourselves? What say you?

Now, if I've totally misjudged your initial post, I will gladly say so right here in public after you deal with the Scriptures that have been presented. But I can not help it -- I've been at this too long not to get suspicious when I see posts that look like yours. It sounds just like someone who is hung up on Saturdays trying to stir up a fight over the Sabbath. If you aren't claiming to observe the Sabbath, then good -- otherwise, please provide the Scripture you use to back up your implication that not observing the Sabbath is willful disobedience.

Re: "Sabbath observance"
 

RonB,

This is probably one of the most tolerant Forums on Bible issues you can find on the NET. But on the other hand at least once a week we get these "one issue" people who join the AV1611 Forums, and we have no idea whether they are Christians or not.

Your first "Thread" on the Forum raises suspicions, because, instead of coming on and giving us a personal testimony about yourself, you start with a question on a topic that you should have settled long ago - that is, if you spent much time studying the Bible.

You see we know nothing about you, for instance: Do you have a Seventh Day Adventist background?; or are you acquainted with British Israelism?; or perhaps you have been influenced by the World Wide Church of God?

Without a personal testimony (from your lips to our ears - so to speak), we have no idea who you are, and whether you are sincerely looking for the truth or just another "trouble-maker" (and we get our share every week) looking for a "platform" to expound on whatever "pet doctrine" that may have caught their fancy.

Diligent answered your inquiry with Scripture (rightly divided and in context); you have yet to answer him, instead you came back with:
WHY are you so touchy? WHY are you so easily provoked? WHY didn't you overlook his "tone", if you didn't like the manner in which he answered you, and at least deal with the "substance" of his reply and ANSWER HIS COMMENTS and the Scriptures he presented, instead of going off on a private little "funk"?

Instead of dealing with Brandon's reply, you ignored his comments and then "flattered" some of the other brethren who answered you the way you preferred (or demand). But for someone who is supposedly earnestly searching for the truth, you have yet to reply to any of the comments made by any of the brethren who have taken the time to answer your question.

Since you posted your Thread: "Sabbath observance", 12 hours have passed and several of the brethren have responded to your question and you have yet to respond to a single one of their comments, except to compliment them on the "nice manner" {:hug:} in which they responded! You said you wanted "some DISCOURSE" - Well DISCOURSE then; 12 hours is plenty of time to at least answer some of the comments made by the brethren in response to you inquiry! {Just exactly what are you trying to accomplish?}

You have gotten several answers - are you going to respond, or are you going to keep on criticizing the Administrator of the Forum, because (poor thing) he didn't respond to you in an "acceptable manner"? That is - "acceptable" to you?

For someone who claims have a "thick skin" you seem awfully "thin-skinned' to me! :eek:

You will notice that I haven't attempted to answer your question, because, at 66 years of age, if you aren't able to discern between "the Jew" (Israel); "the Gentile"; and "the church" [1Corinthians 10:32] - chances are you never will.

You claim that your not "new" to the Bible, but this is an issue that you should have settled years ago. (I settled it over 40 years ago) If you're not "new" to the Bible - WHERE have you been? WHO have you been "studying" under? {Do you see WHY your personal testimony might be of some help to us?}

If you are sincere, you will start to answer and reply to the comments made by the brethren. If you are "disingenuous" you will go off in a "huff", playing the "victim" to those mean ole intolerant Bible "thumpers" on The AV1611 Bible Forums. :Cry:

Re: Postscript - "Sabbath observance "
 

Aloha all,

Well, it's over 48 hours since RonB posted his Thread about the Sabbath: He said he wanted "DISCOURSE", but the only "discourse" that he shared with us was his criticism of Brandon (for his tone), and his "flattering" some of the brethren (who tried to "discourse" with him) for a nicer tone or attitude.

PLEASE NOTICE:

Brandon (Diligent) answered him three times.
Parrish answered him once.
Luke answered him once.
Kiwi Christian answered him once.
Chette 777 answered him once.

RonB claimed he was looking for "some DISCOURSE": Not counting Brandon's 3 replies, four other people replied (in a manner acceptable to RonB) and he has yet (48 hours later) to engage in the "discourse" he claimed he was looking for!

I made no attempt to "discourse" with RonB, mainly because of his attitude towards Brandon.

After dealing with "Christians" for over 50 years, I am always suspicious of a "Christian" who's interest is in OBSERVING SOMETHING [Matthew 23:23 & Luke 11:42]; who says they have studied the Bible, and yet are still hung-up over "the first principles of the oracles of God" {an inablity to discern between the Jew, the Gentile, and the church of God}; and who claims to be a Christian, but is reluctant to give their personal testimony.

In his biography (listed on the Forum) RonB said: "About myself? Not important but I think I'm among friends here." How a person got saved is always important! And where they have been after they got saved will reveal a whole lot about a person. We know nothing about the man or his background, but one thing is obvious - contrary to what he said, he's thin-skinned and has "a chip on his shoulder".

In my closing remarks to RonB I stated:
It remains to be seen whether RonB is "disengenuous" or not; and whether he will join the ranks of the kooks, crazies, and crackpots that regularly show up on the Forum about once a week or so! :eek:

Contrast RonB's "stealth approach" and "hyper-sensitive attitude", and Tonybones' open declaration of who he is; his background; and his willingness to openly declare what he believes. I may disagree over some issues with brother "bones", but one thing's for certain - he has given a clear testimony to having been saved, and he has been open about his background and where he's been since he got saved.

There's a whole lot to be said for someone who is honest and above board, and who has NO GUILE! :)

yes George I had expected to hear back from him concerning the scriptures I gave him either to the positive or negative. But nada, nil, nothing from RonB.

Maybe he really isn't for discussing just making punches and runny off to his corner. I think we all did as he wanted

But was it enough is he on tract now concerning the Sabbath observance? at least he could do is answer whether those scriptures were satisfactory enough. Or is he just gaining scriptures that we use to go against the sabbath day requirement under law for the Jews as a requirement for the body of Christ today. so he can try and debunk it on another forum somewhere?

Seems he is a Sabbath Day observing Adventist, COC or British Israelite.

I know I'm not a major contributor on these forums, simply because of two factors: I don't have all the answers (but I do have some!), and secondly, I just can't make enough time in the day to keep on top of such an active forum, especially when each post has so much to think about.
In my former life, I got addicted to a forum for a certain video game clan I played alot, and I became a mainstay there, but that was relatively easy, because the topics were nowhere as meaty. Anyways, I had to quit once I was spending every waking hour on the site. Keeping on top of x number of rich conversations can be exasperating.
(-surely some of you must feel this way sometimes)

Anyways, I'll just put my two cents in on this RonB post:

I agree his entire approach seems like every SDA member I've ever spoken with. What a shame if he is, but we don't know if that's certainly the case.
Most cult members have sincere devotion to trying to please God, they'd make great Christians if they could just rely on the scriptures alone, instead of the cult leaders.
Whenever SDA is discussed, its always about Sabbath observance, but rarely about Ellen White, which actually creates numerous theological and salvational problems for the follower.

Granted, RonB hasn't responded yet, but let's not write him off as running away, because not everyone can live on their PC, perhaps he simply can't get to it yet. Give him some time. Anyone concerned about Sabbath observance clearly didn't come to be concerned over that from any sound-doctrine preacher. If someone came to concern over keeping ONE law, why aren't they equally concerned about ALL laws? And if someone were concerned about all the laws, they would eventually turn to Christ.

Hey, maybe RonB is spending his time in Galatians and Romans, which would be the best place for him at this point. Good scripture was given, and if he asks for more discourse, he can have it here. The best thing we can do is explain the Christian's justification by Christ's complete atonement, but even better, we should pray for him.


By the way, Diligent, (and you must be, to be forum moderator!), might I ask about your avatar? is that really you? is that some baptist preacher?
Perhaps it swings newcomer's perception of your responses, when your doing your job of moderating, of course, they seem to take offense too easily.
Could be just them, but could the avatar be adding a little tension?

It's James T. Kirk yelling "Kahn." I can certainly understand confusing it for a baptist preacher. :pound:

Yeah, you pretty much nailed it with that verse. If one reads that for what it says, it would be twisting Scripture to try to apply Sabbath observance to Gentile Christians living in the age of God's grace.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Ron, you are basing your question in an unestablished premise, firstly, you are asserting a "Christian" sabbath on "the seventh day". I need first to see your Scriptural proof as to one part of the law of Moses being transposed over into this administration of Paul, the Grace Age, that stresses NO works, such as a sabbath observance. We are under no "commandments". I'm a Gentile after the flesh, and am not bound to the law, only in a description of my human nature.

I renounce sabbath keeping as not part of the gospel Paul preached and you cannot judge me for that belief. There IS no "Christian sabbath":

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Le 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Le 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Ron, where is the Tabernacle? Not the Temple but the Tabernacle? If you observe the sabbath did you reverence the Tabernacle? You can't, becasue it no longer exists on earth, and you are guilty under this Scripture:

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

I'd suggest you need to rightly divide the Scriptures right after you give me a Scriptural proof that there is such a thing as a "Christian Sabbath"

Grace and peace to you

Tony

Ron, it's very hard to judge the tone of a text message. Not all of us are flaming you. We can be a bit touchy on the subject of the law, give yourself a chance to just read and digest the information you asked for. I add my welcome to you to the forum with the rest.

Grace and peace

Tony

Well, it looks like Ron might not be back after all. Perhaps he read these scriptures and was convicted. Let's trust that continued prayer for him will bear fruit.
Now, I recently came across someone in my city who advertised a Bible study group, so naturally, I inquired, and ended up making a new friend. We talked at length on the phone for 3 hours+ the other night. He's actually a microbiology PhD at McGill and a creationist! So we had lots to talk about on that. But it also turns out that he's an SDA.
We ha a really great conversation about doctrine, using scriptures back and forth. He remained open-minded and agreed that the scriptures alone should be his final authority. I told him we should pick one or two topics, and stick to them alone for our discussion, so we don't get too sidetracked, and of course we picked Sabbath observance.
So, I'm getting drawn into this discussion with a person all over again, but he seems to have a good attitude, and I even made some points about the Bible versions that he agreed with!
So, I've borrowed a few of the texts from this thread, along with tons of others I've gathered, but I wanted to share one article on an ex-SDA website that I found to be very beneficial.
I'm giving him this article along with other scriptures, I'll let you all know how it goes.
Hey, at least I know he's more or less free to come to a Bible-believing IFB church on Sunday, assuming he doesn't mind accepting the mark of the beast, of course!

http://www.nonsda.org/study7.shtml

This may be going off-course in this thread but I'll be quick. I just wanted to commend "BABB 514" in particular for his attitude toward RonB in that we really don't know what he is doing right now. Hopefully, searching the scriptures.

Luke, I had a book contained the observances of one of the early philosopher/historians, I don't remember if it was Josephus or not but they made reference to early Christians rising on the first day of the week(Sunday) before they went to work, and gathering to sing hymms to Chrestus(Christ) who they worshipped as a God and was God.

I used to order books from a Bride Baptist church in Texas, a rather large one, who used this historical record and the passage in Hebrews to justify a Sunday "sabbath"

Excellent observation of yours too.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Justin Martyr.. he refers to it as the First day and the Eighth day

Thanks brother, I had this little book printed in England in like 1890 had all these quotations by the early historians and folks about the early church. One was a treatise aginst Christians by some Roman somebody or other accusing Christians of being atheists! Why? We don't have a "godshelf", a place in homes for little idols of Jupiter, Hera, Venus, Mars, etc. Of course the "gods" of Imperial Rome has been replaced by "saint's.

I live about 8 miles from a Hindu temple, they let you come inside and everything. The main area inside has a ledge up by the ceiling that goes around the interior of the building. I made a fair estimate of 3000 little statues of different gods, one of the worshipers told me there were 3400 of them.

Grace and peace

Tony

Hindu's have 1 million gods they worship. that was an estimate from a missionary who lives there but the info was from the 1980's

Chette, a professor of comparative religions at a local university in the same city as this temple I wrote of was a worshiper at this temple and a man I knew before he returned to India, he told me the official tally is in the region of 330 million, mostly regional and minor deities that are added or subtracted in the same manner as regional "saints" within Romanism. Hinduism is where we get evolution from as lower to higher to back down lower again is merely Hinduism and not science.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

wow that really is a lot of gods

If you examine the precepts of Mormonism as one example, you find that the majority of the Hindu "gods" are merely exalted humans, as does Mormonism. Hinduism is a spiritual pyramid with Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva being the primary three, and they are three separate gods. The gods below them are in a constant state of progression as in Mormonism. This belief is the primary root of the caste system in India of 4 groups, the bottom being a group known as "the untouchables". Literally, these people are shunned and avoided and it is forbidden to come into physical contact with them. This man I knew, though pretty enlightened as far as an educated man in engineering(he attended the college I mentioned that is by this temple)told me, "I'd rather drink the urine of a dog and eat the dung of a water buffalo than touch one of these people or be in the same room with one for that matter..." Hindus have no problem with evolution as it's the foundational practice of their religion, lower to higher. Humans are doomed to leterally millions of lives being reincarnated into something better if they are "good" and knocked back on the ladder if they are "bad".

Hinduism is an all-inclusive religion and it's hard to witness one single God to them, as they accept Jesus Christ as just another one of the 330 million.

Grace and peace to you

Tony