Gap Theory
 

I'm sure there are people who've probably heard this before, and I did a search and didn't find anything conclusive without searching through hundreds of posts wasting time I don't have.

A preacher at my church brought up a verse which seems to clearly refute the gap theory (I'm still very undecided on the matter, and still leaning more towards the gap theory), but I was wondering what you guys think on the matter.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The only problems I see with saying this verse is a crystal clear refutation is the fact that it really isn't clear that Gen 1:1 & 2 are included in the first day and the fact that darkness exists before God makes the light, and we aren't told when the deep is made. It also doesn't say THE heaven or THE earth. It just says heaven (which heaven is it? first, second, third?), and it just says earth, which could easily just be dry ground, and sea, which, like earth, could just be the water that was brought into one place on THE earth. I also know about the passage in 2 Peter 3, which is kind of a murky passage as well, but does give a lot more support for the gap theory than it does for saying that verses 5 & 6 refer to the flood of Gen 7, because the earth during the flood was covered in water, not overflowed with water, being IN and OUT of it, and the obvious implications of the heaven and earth of old, the heaven and earth that are now, and the new heaven and earth.

I realize i just gave most of the major refutations that actually work on both sides of the argument. I don't consider Satan's fall and the sons of God one because there was, at the most, 130 years before the fall of Adam, also Ruckman's case on the meaning behind the implications of the word worlds in Hebrews 1:2 and 11:3 aren't that great either, but I completely understand why he would have said it. I was wondering if any of you guys had anything else on the subject.

Brother Kevin, please forgive my “uneducated” answer. I’ve not read any material on the GAP theory, believe it or not, so my understanding is from what I perceive the scriptures to teach, not from well learned men. Here it goes.

Personally, I believe verses 1-5 represent one day.

Genesis 1:1-5 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Here’s why.

Genesis 1:1 says, of course, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”

Genesis 1:31 says, “And God saw every thing that he had made [to include the heaven and the earth], and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

Genesis 2:3 says, “And God blessed the seventh day, [which comes after day six :)] and sanctified it: [it, referring to the seventh day] because that in it [it, referring to the seventh day] he had rested from all his work [all His work to include the work in the beginning when He created the heaven and the earth] which God created and made [including the heaven and the earth]”

Based on my understanding of scripture, I simply believe that “all his work” which “God created and made,” to include the “heaven and the earth” which, again “God created, in the beginning” which He “rested from” on the “seventh day” was very good.

That's true, it's not clear. So rather than speculate, I take what scripture does give us. If you know of any other scriptures that infer a GAP existed between “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” and “…God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made,” I’m open to it. :)

Your right, we’re not told when the "deep" is made. The scripture simply says, in Genesis 1:2, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

Evidently, when, "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", it included the “deep” and the “waters.” Obviously, God did not divide something that was not already there. And scripture does not clarify a separate time the “deep” and “waters” were created.


Based on this, my conclusion is that the deep and the waters were included when “in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” and on the second day “…God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day” (Genesis 1:7-8). Do you know of any other scriptures that support a GAP of time?

Amen Brother Forrest! Many Gap supporters like to use Jeremiah 4:23-28 as a descriptive of something that happened between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2.

Jeremaih 4:23-28, I beheld the earth, and, lo, [it was] without form, and void; and the heavens, and they [had] no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, [there was] no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place [was] a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, [and] by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken [it], I have purposed [it], and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

It's evident, however(to me at least), that these verses are a vision of Jeremiah of the coming judgement of the Lord on Israel, which was so severe as to be likened to the state of the earth just after creation. Verses 29-31 make this very clear.

Jeremiah 4:29-31, The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city [shall be] forsaken, and not a man dwell therein. And [when] thou [art] spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; [thy] lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, [and] the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, [that] bewaileth herself, [that] spreadeth her hands, [saying], Woe [is] me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

In Christ,
Josh

I agree with you. Not to mention the fact that "...all the birds of the heavens were fled...the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities...land shall be desolate [the words "shall be" are future tense denoting something already existed] yet will I not make a full end.

Thank you brother Forrest for your post. It definitely helped me out.

Also, I know about Jer 4:23, and it definitely is a future prophecy. Some people would argue though, that because the Holy Spirit used the same phrase in Jer 4, right after a disaster, that it would infer a disaster happened between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. I agree that the Holy Spirit uses certain phrases throughout scripture to denote the same certain things, but I'm not sure if the opposite is ever true. I guess it would be in this case at least if God did create everything that has ever existed 6,000 years ago in 6 days.

I don't have a whole lot of time to get into this, being that I'm running on 3-4 hours of sleep and I have to work at 11 tonight (EST). However, there are a few points that were missed in this whole thing: people have a tendency to have a belief and stick to it, finding verses and explaining them to fit their belief. 'Tis a dangerous thing to do. :)

#1

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

How many heavens? The plural form of that word doesn't show up until Genesis 2:

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen. 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Therefore, if we're going to take the WORDS of God at face value, God only created ONE heaven in Genesis 1:1. We know from 2 Corinthians 12:2 that there are THREE heavens: the atmosphere, outer space, and God's throne (or Heaven). Therefore, if there is no gap between verses 1 and 2, then either the wording is wrong, or you have to come up with two more heavens being created sometime after Genesis 1:2.

#2

Gen. 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

If you'll look at what the firmament is, you'll see that it's the atmosphere: the birds fly in the midst of the firmament (Gen. 1:20); and space (Gen. 1:14-15). Strikingly, the firmament, one of the most important parts of our ecology, was not regarded by God as "good" until the final overlook and declaration that it was all good. Everything else is specifically called good except this one thing; why would that be?

Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

That firmament is under the dominion of someone else; THAT'S why God didn't call it good.

#3

Gen. 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Notice the wording: eastward IN Eden. Eden is a region; there was a garden placed within that region. The garden itself was not called Eden, as is customary to say. Garden IN Eden, not garden OF Eden. Now watch carefully.

Ezek. 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

(emphasis mine)

And here's the bad guy:

Ezek. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Lucifer inhabited a Garden CALLED Eden; this was not a garden IN Eden, this is a garden CALLED Eden. Two different things; things that are different are not the same. There's a lot more; this always leads to a study on Lucifer that's rather mind-boggling, but now I must shower, take a nap, and get ready for work.

God bless.

It appears to me, Brother Vince, after examination of the WORDS at face value, God did some “creating” and “dividing” in the six days recorded in chapter one, prior to getting to chapter two. He created both the “heaven” and the “heavens” during the six days.

DAY ONE

Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven [which heaven?] and the earth. [Is this when you believe a GAP of time occurs? Between verse one and two? If so, what WORDS support that?]
Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Ge 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Ge 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Ge 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. [Examining the WORDS at face value, there is no written evidence of a GAP in time.]

DAY TWO

Ge 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Ge 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Ge 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven [which heaven?]. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

DAY THREE

Ge 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven [which heaven?] be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Ge 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Ge 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

DAY FOUR

Ge 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven [which heaven?] to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Ge 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven [which heaven?] to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Ge 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven [which heaven?] to give light upon the earth,
Ge 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

DAY FIVE

Ge 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven [which heaven?].
Ge 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Ge 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

DAY SIX

Ge 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Ge 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ge 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Ge 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Ge 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens [which heavens? After careful examination of the WORDS, I think it was the "heaven" and "heavens" He created in chapter one, starting from the beginning.] and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

I do not know why it’s not called good until verse 31, I just know after examination of the WORDS at face value, God calls it very good. “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

In closing, you are exactly right, Brother, people have a tendency to have a belief and stick to it, finding verses and explaining them to fit their belief. 'Tis a dangerous thing to do. :)

Excellent post! More, more!

:)

When I was first introduced to true Rightly Dividing, I was about 13 years old. My parents bought a copy of One Book Rightly Divided from Dr. Bill Grady, who strongly recommended it. After I read through that book, my spiritual understanding was opened to the incredible depth of the Scriptures. Dr. Stauffer doesn't address the Gap theory in depth, or at all if memory serves me correctly, so at that point I was still firmly set in agreement with men like Kent Hovind and Ken Ham who taught that the Gap was simply an attempt to reconcile the Bible and the Genesis account of Creation with the humanistic theories of Evolution. Needless to say, I was, as they are, very very wrong on that point.

Some people do point to Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and attempt to fit evolution into it, but a simple reading of the Scriptures proves that God never used "Natural Selection" or "evolution" to bring about the Creation. When God finished in Genesis 1:31, the Creation that had taken Him but six days to complete was whole, mature and finished. He did not use "Survival of the Fittest" or any nonsense like that to create the earth: the creation of Genesis 1:3-31 (regardless of your stance on the Gap, the actual creation of everything besides the earth itself began in verse 3) was "very good" like God said, without the necessity of any natural processes.

In 2003, my family and I took a trip to Dillon Montana to visit my aunt and uncle and attend Bro. Sturgeon's Big Sky Camp Meeting. God did some miraculous things in my family at that meeting; He gave my dad some direction and started us on the path that led us to where we are today as a family (not to mention Kathie and myself getting together!). While there, I had a discussion with a man in the church (whom we knew from a church we had attended in Missouri) about the Gap "theory." I gave him my pre-digested response about evolution and whatnot, and he explained that the Gap was nothing of the sort. He pointed out the fact that God did not view the firmament as being good when He had created it, and that sparked my curiosity. After reading a lot of Scripture and talking to a few different people about it, I began to change my stance on the issue. I've since come completely around to where I understand the Dispensational significance of the Gap, and its prophetic parallels. While some of those specifics are deep and somewhat clouded and I won't dig that deeply into the topic, there is enough valid Scripture to show that there have been, in fact, two Creations: the third and final Creation is spoken of in Revelation 21 (remember, God almost always works in threes and sevens).


Ok, that was the introduction. I'll try to address the "heaven/s" thing more specifically here. I just wanted to point out that I don't have a "pre-conceived" doctrine that I'm trying to defend: I was originally an "anti-gapper" to the hilt, but God showed me otherwise through His word.

When you find the same exact word or phrase used the same way in two different places about two different things, it's imperative that the reader note that and allow God to show the similarities. Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23 parallel almost perfectly: the subject in both sentences is the earth, and in both places it is referred to as "without form, and void;" even to the point of the exact same usage and punctuation!! Were that to appear anywhere else in the Bible, anyone would simply accept it as Biblical truth and a God-given cross-reference. However, when it comes to a "questionable" teaching or doctrine, the "brethren" get skittish and look for a way out.

Gen. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Jer. 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Now understandably, the Jeremiah reference is speaking directly of the destruction of Jerusalem, prophetically occurring at the end of the Tribulation; from what I recall (end-times prophecy is not my strong suit), this happens right before the destruction by fire and re-creation of the earth spoken of in Revelation 21 and 2 Peter 3. However, as Bible Believers we know that the Bible always has multiple applications, so this should not be an exception. As I showed with my topic on Inspiration (discussion on that should be directed to that thread so as not to derail this one), the same word or phrase used in two different places almost certainly defines and cross-references itself.

Unarguably, Genesis 1:2 refers to the earth right before God creates the current population of flora and fauna, and Jeremiah 4:23 refers to a place and time of destruction, likely before God recreates it. Both places imply previous existence of something; God didn't simply create a huge ball of water-covered mud floating in water. Somehow it got that way, as Genesis 1:2 speaks of something that is in a state of destruction (a la Jer. 4:23). By the way, "without form, and void" does NOT mean "unformed and unfilled": it means "without form, and void." therefore, what God had made was at that point "without form, and void." Claiming that God created something that was "without form, and void" is rather baseless: you'll not find anywhere else that God created something that was immediately "without form, and void."

Saying that, let's get back to the "heaven/s" quandary. Without getting into the whole process of Creation, the fall of Lucifer, the destruction of Eden, and the recreation (I'll save that for another time ;) ), I want to address Bro. Forrest's objections.

Without a "Gap," you have a God who created a "without form, and void" mudball, and one "heaven," and then decided "Whoops, I needed three of those!" and created two more. I have a God that created a perfect paradise for the Sons of God (Job 38:4-7) which was subsequently destroyed in a cataclysmic, supernatural rebellion, which took His 4-Dimensional, Divine Creation (Gen. 1:1, Eph. 3:18) and degraded it into our current 3-Dimensional universe; as a result, God's throne (Heaven) was still 4D (Eph. 3:18) but the remainder was divided into two parts (2 - number of division) which we know as "space" and the atmosphere: He then recreated the demolished earth (Gen. 1:2) into a beautiful planet where He placed the king to rule His creation: Adam.

On the one hand you have a slightly absentminded God who says one thing ("heaven," singular) and then makes three things in almost the same breath, and somehow gets a kick out of making broken things and then making mud pies. On the other hand, you have a God that is powerful and sovereign, Who gives His creatures the Free Will to serve Him or rebel, and Who deigns to give His creature (man) the rule ("dominion," Gen. 1:26, 28) over His beautiful Creation; this God also works in threes, as this is the second Creation, and looking forward to the third where He will give His chosen people the entire universe for their habitation.

These topics are fun. ;)

Hmm... You say that God first created the heaven and the earth, then destroyed it, then re-created it and the other heavens. But Genesis 2:4 says, "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens". Seems the heavens were made in the same day as the earth. :)

You addressed a tiny little sliver of my post; when a person looks at the big picture, it becomes apparent that there is more to be seen than just "Seems the heavens were made in the same day as the earth." There are quite a few holes in your side of the argument that can't be covered by that little verse.

Genesis 1:3 was the FIRST day. Time did exist since 1:1, but being that Jesus Christ was the light, and all the created beings were spiritual, there was no need of a light/dark cycle, or "days."

Something else to keep in mind is that "day," while in the Creation refers to a 24 (ish) - hour period, the "day of the Lord" is not a specific day at all, but a period of time. While I don't have a definite response at this very instant (I need a nap), there is more to be done on your side than simply "HA! Day, I win, you loose, blah blah blah." I outlined several things that need to be addressed other than the single opposition you present.

Here are my thoughts, Brother Vince.

I agree with you here. I think context of the passage is always imperative though, and therefore, must be considered to arrive at the truth.

Almost perfectly? I accept the Biblical truth in the context it is presented.

Jeremiah 4:19-28 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

My understanding of Jeremiah 4:19-28, is that in no way does it have anything to do with the “beginning” when God created the “heaven and the earth.” Yes, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Jeremiah described what the Lord revealed by using some exact words found in Genesis regarding the creation, however, in my understand of the word this is clearly not a written record or address of the beginning when God created.

Jeremiah, under inspiration, wrote:

• I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;
• and the heavens, and they had no light.
  
• I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
  
• I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
  
• I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
  
• For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
  
• For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Personally, I do not see how you get the above thoughts and understanding from:

Job 38:4-7 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I do not believe the scripture teaches God created, as you say, “a mud ball” and had a “whoops” experience. I simply believe that “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” (Genesis 1:1-2).

I agree with the definition of form: wht tohuw to'-hoo from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:--confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

God fashioned the heaven, heavens, and the earth in the exact order He chose. He took an earth, that HE created, that was “without form” and gave it form. He made no blunder or mistake or "whoops." And His time schedule was perfect.

I also agree with the definition for the word void: whb bohuw bo'-hoo from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:--emptiness, void.

He made something out of that which was “without form, and void.” My understanding is that, “…God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day” (Genesis 1:31).

Where does this come from? Personally, I do not see in Holy Scripture any destruction or supernatural rebellion occurring in Genesis 1:1. In my understanding of the scripture, God did not “[see] every thing that he had made [and say] it was very good” which included a cataclysmic, supernatural rebellion.

Ephesians 3:14-19 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

I simply do not see Ephesians 3, teaching 4 Dimensions. I understand it to be Paul’s prayer and passion to see the believers at Ephesus know the “…breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.” I believe the context is supported by the entire letter to the Church at Ephesus and that this prayer corresponds with his first prayer in Ephesians 1:15-23.

Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Sorry, I simply cannot reconcile this teaching with, “He then recreated the demolished earth (Gen. 1:2) into a beautiful planet where He placed the king to rule His creation: Adam.”

Amen Forrest!! We see eye to eye on this. :)

I have 3 "stacks" of Christian subject matter(for the lack of a better word phrase)that are "the highest", i.e., in which I have an intense interest:

1. Dispensationalism
2. "Romanism"
3. Gap theory

Accordingly, I thought the below link would be FYE re. the GAP theory(amongst many I have accumulated over the years). I would add that I understand that Gaines R. Johnson is a "staunch" KJB only advocate,witnesss the site address words used.

As ususal, "check it out" with the Book-Acts 17:11

http://www.kjvbible.org/

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

at

In response to your last post, Bro. Whalen, I have to say that I agree with that fellow and disagree with him at the same time. I do believe that Young-Earth Creationism is true, though I believe the earth is a bit older than they believe it to be. Not millions of years to account for some mythological "geologic ages" or evolutionary nonsense, though.

Here is some information I prepared and my wife posted on a forum some time back; at the time it was at a place where it would not be received well (saying "Ruckman" was a good way to get shot!) but I think this forum would be a less volatile location to post some notes from Doc's Genesis class, as well as my own charts and thoughts on the matter.

Original Creation

Genesis 1:2

Recreation

The last part is a little choppy; I was trying to type furiously whilst pausing and rewinding an mp3 and looking up Scriptures: my apologies if it seems fragmented. If anyone wants the mp3 from the Genesis class I took these notes in, I'll be glad to put it up and post a link.


Edit: I wanted to address the apparent difficulty over the Jeremiah reference; the similarities that they share (I said this in a previous post but apparently it wasn't noticed) are that something existed before, since it is NOW without form and void, and that something is about to happen to the subject (earth) by God's own hand. Both cases it seems that God caused it to happen, and they both allude to a previous existence of something. That, my brethren, is irrefutable. The similarities are plain, the differences acknowledged.

Forgive me for the long post, but this particular reply represents about a week of study, prayer, and contemplation. After reading your reply Brother Vince (post #15), I see why this subject has such "spirited" and "lengthy" debates. I agree with you that it’s good we can “dig for truth” on this Forum and still “With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, [forbear] one another in love” (Ephesians 4:2).

This post addresses the teaching on 2 Peter 3:5-7 from the above referenced link given by Brother Whalen on post #14. Although it may be hard to believe, in my 29 years as a Christian I’ve not read any books or materials or heard any sermons on the subject of the “GAP THEORY,” so my observations are only from the scriptures, and not from other resources that are available to us. I did, however, read the web-page referred to by Brother Whalen and I’m only commenting on it. And Brother Whalen, it did indeed lead me to “search the scriptures” to see “whether these things be so” (Acts 17:11). :)

The verses I comment on are: “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men” (2 Peter 3:5-7).

In response to the verses above, Gaines R. Johnson, author of the referenced link, explains in part, and I quote:

“Contrary to popular interpretation, the above passage is NOT a reference to Noah's flood. (See Introduction Pages for specifics.) And the only other place in the Bible where the Earth was covered in waters is Genesis 1:2. The ramifications are obvious: The literal wording suggests that the "heavens and the earth, which are now" (made during the seven days) was not the first-time creation of all things as is traditionally assumed. The Word of God appears to be telling the reader there was a previous populated world on the face of this old Earth before God formed the present world of modern Man.”

I realize he has a lot more to say on the subject, but I wanted to study his specific comments in light of God’s word, comparing scripture with scripture, before being influenced by “other” data provided by Brother Johnson.

It goes without saying, this passage, like all scripture, stands on its own without the commentary of well learned and pious men. I am neither, but I’ve attempted to be thorough, and honest, with the “literal wording”. I’ve also read the word openly without twisting it to fit a preconceived idea. What’s my conclusion? I do not agree with Brother Johnson’s particular view regarding these verses of scripture. In saying that, I believe 2 Peter 3:3-7, references Noah’s day--and flood. Here’s why:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

EXPLANATION OF VERSES (3) “…there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts” (4) “…all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation” (5) “For this they willingly are ignorant of…” (6) “…the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished” and (7) “…the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

The word “they” in verse 5, of course, refers to the “scoffers” referred to in verse 3 [a scoffer is a derider, i.e. (by implication) a false teacher:--mocker] who come in the last days and walk after their own lusts. They are ignorant because things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation (verse 4), which will result in the judgment of God (verse 7).

I believe that the Apostle Peter is drawing a parallel between an “older” time recorded in history to a current and coming one. In addition, I believe he is giving a warning in his second epistle by putting the readers in remembrance of both good and evil. “This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:” (2 Peter 3:1).

OF GOOD

2 Peter 1:5-8 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

OF EVIL

2 Peter 2:4-9 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

They [the scoffers] will also be judged [as the individuals in Noah’s day were judged] for their wickedness and their ungodliness. By using the word “as” I am not suggesting the method of judgment is the same, I am emphasizing judgment itself.

Genesis 6:5-7 says “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 6:11-13 says, “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”

The description of mankind in Noah’s day parallels with the Apostle Peter’s description of mankind in the last days. And although the judgments are different, there are judgments in both times. I believe the Apostle Peter refers to Noah and the flood when he writes in 2 Peter 3:6, “Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.”

In Peter’s first epistle (3:20), we also see clear reference to Noah’s day and a time of judgment. We read, “Which sometime were disobedient [see the above verses in Genesis 6 for the detail of their disobedience], when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” This clearly references Noah’s day and a time of judgment.

In Peter’s second epistle (3:7) we see a coming judgment. We read, “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” This is a clear reference to the last days and a coming judgment.

EXPLANATION OF VERSE 5 & 7 (5) “…heavens were of old” and (7) “…the heavens and the earth, which are now”

The word “old” means: ekpalai eh'-pal-ahee long ago, for a long while:--of a long time, of old.

The word “old” simply refers to something long ago, of a long time, and of old. These words [“heavens were of old”], in my opinion, do not mean or imply that the “old” heavens must have been re-created with the “new” heavens. But the words “heavens were of old” in verse 5, and the words “the heavens and the earth, which are now” in verse 7, do indeed mean something. But what do they mean?

The words “heavens were of old,” in my understanding, simply refer to the heavens before the flood which is recorded in Genesis 6. What exactly was different long ago regarding the heavens of old before the flood, and the heavens which are now after the flood? Do the scriptures tell us?

In Genesis 2:5–6 we read, “And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. [No rain. How did the plants and the herbs grow?] But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.”

What was the difference between the “heavens” of a long time ago [before the ‘Noah’ flood] and now [after the ‘Noah’ flood]? There was no rain from the heavens before the flood and there was rain from the heavens after the flood.

Jeremiah 10:13 says, “When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.” This clearly refers to the same heavens the Apostle Peter wrote about, “which are now,” after the flood. It rains from the heavens.

EXPLANATION OF VERSE 6 “Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished”

I think this clearly teaches that the world and its orderly arrangement, inhabitants, and adornment in Noah’s day, perished or was destroyed when it was flooded by water. Keep in mind that the Apostle Peter has already said that God “…spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly” (2 Peter 2:5).

Genesis 6:17 says, “And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.”

Genesis 7:21-24 says, “And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.”

EXPLANATION OF VERSE 7 - “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

The heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved, because God’s word says:

Genesis 8:21-22 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Notice carefully. We can conclude that the above verses reference the “earth” and the “heavens”. The words “seedtime and harvest” certainly refer to the earth. And the words “day and night” include the heavens.

And the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men because God’s word says:

2 Thessalonians 1:5-9 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

CONCLUDING THOUGHTS

By considering and comparing “scripture” with “scripture,” my opinion is that 2 Peter 3:5-7, is referencing Noah’s flood. If this is the case, then part of the foundation, in my opinion, for those who support a "Gap Theory," dissolves.

On the other hand, if a person believes that the Apostle Peter was referring to a time, and to a world we don't really have any clear, written explanation of, what can I say? :confused:

I was really into your response there...it seemed as if you had done a completely honest job, but then of course I ran into this:

...and oh well.

2 Peter 3 draws a parallel between the first time the entire earth was destroyed (between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2) and the final destruction by fire; I've touched on that in response to the word "elements," either here or other places. God called the earth before Noah "the old world" (2 Pet. 2:5) and the pre-Adamic earth "the world that then was" (2 Pet. 3:6): I take that at face value and say that apparently, since Noah is mentioned in one instance, and not in another, that they are two different time periods, one including Noah, and one not including Noah. Remember, God works in threes (Gen. 1:1-2; Gen. 7; 2 Pet. 3:10, Rev. 21:1).

Also: please denote when you have added emphasis to a quote, and it's best to leave the quote intact and comment on it outside of the actual quote. Thanks.

Sorry, what scriptures do you use to support that the earth was destroyed between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2? You referred to some scriptures in your previous posts #9 and #15. Jeremiah 4, in context, clearly speaks of a judgment on Jerusalem. The Prophet Jeremiah saw, in a vision, the earth where Jerusalem once stood and, after judgment, it was a pile of rubble. "Without form and void." And I cannot see a destruction of the earth between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 which can be supported by Isaiah 12 or Ezekiel 28.

As you, or someone you were quoting from a sermon or book has said:

Okay. I agree with that conclusion. By the way, are those your thoughts or do they come from someone else?

Concerning…

1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

The words:

in the days of Noah (1 Peter 3:20)

the old world, but saved Noah (2 Peter 2:5)

the world that then was, being overflowed with water (2 Peter 3:6)

In my opinion, all speak of the same world and same time in history. This does not speak of a previous world, earth, or heaven that existed before Noah.

I don't agree with you. If your particular reasoning is true, then we can say that about other scriptures. For example, there is no mention in John 1:1 that the "Word" refers to Jesus, so how do we really know that in the beginning the "Word" is really speaking of Jesus? We know it by comparing scripture with scripture. There is no mention in John 16:7 of the Holy Spirit, yet we know by comparing scripture with scripture in the previous two chapters that the Comforter is the Spirit. "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

Okay.

1. He created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1)

2. He will destroy the heavens and the earth. (Revelation 21:1)

3. He will create a new heaven and a new earth. (Revelation 21:1)

Here's my understanding of what the scriptures are saying.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God...

This simply means that Satan was in Eden, specifically the garden of God, which was eastward in Eden. Satan was in Eden. Satan was in the garden of God. The garden of God was eastward in Eden.

Again, Eden in Ezekiel is a Garden, and Eden in Genesis 2 is a location.

Things that are different are not the same.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Ezekiel 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

Ezekiel 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

Eden is a location--with a garden--called the garden of Eden--which is called the garden of God--because God planted it eastward in Eden.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

The garden God planted eastward in Eden is called the "garden of Eden" "the garden of God" and is located in Eden.

What scripture(s) do you use to explain your view? Perhaps that will help me understand what you are saying. Things that are the same are the same.

"Thou hast been in Eden, the garden of God..."

^^ Eden IS a garden in Ezekiel.

"God planted a garden eastward in Eden..."

^^ Eden is a place where God planted a Garden.

First Eden = Garden

Second Eden = Location where God created a Garden.

*bangs head against wall*

I am honestly attempting to simply take the Holy Scriptures at, as you say, face value. Please address the verses I have referenced and expound upon them with your own understanding and ideas. If you disagree with me, so be it, I am not offended at all. But please explain WHY you disagree by convincing me with SCRIPTURE. I have been persuaded (by Brother Tim) to openly change my mind on this Forum on a previous matter. I am open to the TRUTH. I will use scripture to support why I believe there were NOT two gardens. Here is my understanding of the word of God.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

First, we understand that Eden is a location. The words “…in Eden” confirm this fact.

Second, we understand that “eastward” identifies the location in which God planted a garden. A garden the HE planted in Eden. Since GOD planted the GARDEN in Eden, do you agree that it can be referred to as the GARDEN OF GOD and that it's also appropriately referred to as THE GARDEN OF EDEN?

Genesis 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

Two verses later, we once again read that Eden is a location. The words “And a river went out of Eden” confirm this fact.

In my opinion, we can logically conclude that the garden which was watered by the river that went out of Eden, was the garden God planted eastward in Eden.

Thus far, the first Eden is a location, and has a garden, specifically planted by GOD located eastward.

Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Obviously, at this point it is called the “Garden of Eden” because it is a garden that GOD planted eastward in Eden.

Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

We know the story. SATAN had deceived Eve. “Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” (Genesis 3:1). “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression” (1 Timothy 2:14). “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:3). Even though it was Eve who was deceived and beguiled by the serpent, Adam also disobeyed God. “…and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat” (Genesis 3:6). In eating the forbidden fruit, he disobeyed God, and God “…sent him forth from the garden of Eden….”

Based on the word of God in those referenced verses, I conclude that Satan was in Eden, specifically eastward in Eden, in the garden God had planted, where he then tempted Eve. Adam, Eve, and Satan were all in the garden which GOD planted; which we can reasonable call the garden of GOD. The garden HE planted and walked in. “And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden” (Genesis 3:8).

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Based on the above scriptures recorded in Genesis, I conclude that the words “in Eden the garden of God” found in Ezekiel 28:13 refer to where Satan had been when he tempted Eve. The same garden God had planted, eastward in Eden. Three chapters later, we receive more Biblical support.

Ezekiel 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

I believe this is the same Eden and the same garden. The words “…that were in the garden of God” help me arrive at this logical conclusion. The word of God clearly says, “…all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God” in Ezekiel 31:9. By comparing scripture with scripture, I conclude this is the same EDEN and GARDEN referred to in Genesis and earlier in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

I believe, in light of the other words of God, the words “…like the garden of Eden” refers to the same garden when God took Adam “…and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it” (Genesis 2:15).

Based on these SCRIPTURES, I conclude that this is the same EDEN and GARDEN in Genesis and Ezekiel. But as I said in my opening paragraph, I can be persuaded to change my view with scripture to support a differing view. I think this is reasonable.

I am going to end this post in three words. First, I will explain a few things. Then, I will ask you a question, in three words. Answer it yourself.

Neither of you believe in evolution. Both of you believe what you believe to be the truth. Both of you are saved. Both of you believe the King James Bible is God's word. Both of you believe in God's plan for the ages. Both of you believe in salvation through faith alone. Both of you believe in the literal blood of Christ, the millennial Kingdom, the tribulation, the great white throne judgment.

Both of you believe Satan is a created being who had some authority in God's original sinless creation. Both of you believe Satan fell of his own free will. Both of you believe he will be judged and sent to an eternity in hellfire. Both of you believe that Satan is the great DECIEVER. Both of you believe that satan is the accuser of the BRETHREN.

BOTH OF YOU BELIEVE IN PERSONAL SOUL LIBERTY!

Vince believes Satan fell before Genesis 1:2 and after Genesis 1:1 - not lending any credence to evolution, but basing this on his understanding of the scripture as the Holy Spirit has given him light.
Forrest believes Satan fell sometime during Genesis 2 and 3 - not lending any evidence to evolution, but basing this on his understanding of the scripture, as the Holy Spirit has given him light.

So did Satan fall before or after the original creation.

Considering the above, BRETHREN, and considering that Satan is probably joyous over Christians debating when that wicked one originally sinned.

DOES IT MATTER?



Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Bro. Forrest, let me preface my response by showing you how I believe the Scriptures. As Bro. Ruckman has stressed so many times in his preaching and his books, the smallest words in the Bible are oftentimes the most important when it comes to Biblical truth. Words such as "like" and "as" usually trip up people that want to create their own doctrine from the Bible or twist something to defend their beliefs. I'm not saying you do this, I'm simply explaining how extremely careful I am when it comes to the words of the Scriptures.

For instance:

Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (emphasis mine)

I srongly and emphatically believe that to mean that we are justified by Jesus's faith; also, the "gift" of Ephesians 2:8-9 is faith, not Salvation, if the sentence is dissected properly. Most teach that we have faith and by that we accept Jesus Christ as our saviour, but based on the Scriptures, I believe that even faith itself is a gift, based on the word "of" in Gal. 2:16: "the faith of Jesus Christ."

That being said, I'll try to be more specific as to my belief on Eden.

As you established in the first part of your last post, Eden in Genesis 2 is clearly a Region on the newly created (or renovated) earth. Through the beginning of Genesis 2, it is made clear that Eden is a region where God placed a Garden: Gen. 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. (emphasis mine)

Therefore, being very technical about it (as I am prone to do), I specifically say "the Garden IN Eden," not "the Garden OF Eden." While the Scriptures do call it that later in Genesis 2, it is specifically a name only, as its location and whatnot has already been established earlier in the chapter.

Another point of interest is : Gen. 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. Here there is no garden referenced; Eden is simply a region close to where Cain began to dwell.

Now, in Ezekiel, God is speaking through Ezekiel to the "king of Tyrus," while though he was a real king and I'm sure God was really sending him a message, there's no way He was talking to a mere mortal king in this chapter. Like Isaiah's address to the king of Babylon (Is. 14), the king of Tyrus here is obviously a reference to Satan.

Ezek. 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; (emphasis mine)

According to the words of this verse, the Eden this passage is referring to is NOT a region, but a specific Garden. We've already established that Genesis 2 is speaking clearly about a region on the earth, but this reference here is speaking not of a region, but of a garden.

In conclusion, I believe it is quite clear that Genesis 2 speaks of a Region named Eden that includes a garden, and Ezekiel 28 speaks of a Garden named Eden, not a Region. By extrapolation, I believe the Eden referred to in Ezekiel 28 as being the original earth: God created it for the angels to inhabit, which they did until Lucifer's rebellion. After that, it was destroyed and then recreated by God in Genesis 1:3, where he put man in dominion over His new creation.

I hope that's a little clearer.

Yes, your position on what you believe the scriptures to say is clearer. Thanks for taking the time to explain your understanding.

I agree.

I agree.

I agree. The words "east of Eden" (I'm sure you would agree), are not "God planted a garden eastward in Eden." The words "east of" are different than "eastward in". Your exactly right, obviously, there is no mention of a "garden" because Cain was not eastward in Eden where the garden was, he was on the east of Eden.

Since this does indeed clarify that Eden is a specific "location," I think the word "in" is relevant. That's the very thing which has led me to form my particular opinion.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God...

As a side note, I'm reminded of two other passages that use different "words" that could create some different doctrines if not rightly divided.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Anyway, it's been good. I hope you know I am not "angrily" or "childishly" sitting here debating with you, like a little immature brat who is trying to prove his point and get his way. This type of subject matter is not for the "carnal" believer, that's for sure. Like you, I'm simply "searching the scriptures" with a fellow believer, who as Brother Luke pointed out, have a lot in common. "...they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11). THIS MATTERS TO ME!

I have benefited from this, Brother Vince. In my Christian circles throughout the years, I had not been exposed to the "Gap Theory." And, it has been rare to find others who will even discuss deeper subjects like this one. It's been edifying for me in that it has led me to search and meditate on God's word. That can't be a bad thing. :)

Bro. Forrest, I must apologize for my sarcastic spirit and bad attitude a few times throughout this thread. I admit I'm too quick to jump to the conclusion that someone is less straightforward than they appear on the surface. Though I completely eschew using Greek or Hebrew unless dealing with Bible correctors, your definition of a word via Hebrew didn't merit the response I gave.

I'm going to draw a little picture to illustrate the geography of Genesis 2-4; bear with me here, I don't intend to be sarcastic.

Geography of Eden (Genesis 1-6)

Maybe I'm totally not understanding where you're coming from; sometimes I tend to miss the most obvious things.

That's okay. If we were face-to-face I'm sure we would get along just fine. I'm real laid back and very hard to offend. I may be wrong on the way I'm reading this verse.

Genesis 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Here's my thinking. If the land of Nod was outside the region of Eden, as it is in your picture, it would read like this:

"...and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden."

Again, I may be in error, but I think the two small words "on the" place Nod inside the region of Eden.

It's like saying: "I live in the land of Houston, on the east of Texas" which still places me in Texas, or "I live in the land of Houston, east of Texas" which places me outside of the Texas region, anywhere from Louisiana to Florida. Perhaps it's a southern dialect thing on my part. Anyway, that's what I'm thinking. This particular issue is not really that important to me.

Perhaps "on the east of" could be more like "on the border" or some such. But thinking about it, there probably wasn't a wall or a line in the dirt or a sign stating "You Are Entering the Land of Eden."

"Pan Theology"--it will all pan out in the end. :)

There are those who are no Gap.

There are those who are gap and support that the fossel records show a race before Adam and old earth.

There are those who hold a Gap theory, who are Old earth created in eternity perfect. that something took place and left it in a chaotic mess. It calls for a re-creation at vs 2 view, with a new creation of man to populate the world. The fossel records support a flood, and a repopulation of the earth by men and animals afterwards.

there are some who just don't care and others who just don't know. Aren't you glad your salvation doesn't depend on your view of Gap or no gap?

What a lot to digest, as is just about everything on this site. I must agree with chette777 the previous poster that, when the end comes for me and my knee is bowed, my name is written in the Book. I am not really sure that a theory on God's time frames and structures is going to help me.

However, this stuff is always interesting. I have noticed that with many of the the new believers we get here at the mission, we always are bombarded with the dinosaur, gap, incest, etc. questions as if the answers to those questions are germane to one's salvation. Eventually it is nice to be able achieve a modest level of erudition to fend of the ridiculous that attacks the truth. For example, when one realizes that not too very long ago alleged scholars had just about everyone that mattered convinced that the world was flat. Apparently, they weren't reading their Bibles, or worse, were reading an NIV version...:pound:...

Here is a great web site that I didn't see mentioned in this thread that might help...

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

In Christ...
Steve

It's rather ironic that you would mention Ken Ham's ministry; he's definitely not an AV believer, but though I also disagree with him about the Gap issue, he's very spot-on about most other things.

You are so correct...my apologies. A more extensive look into the site is required by me.

Oh it's no problem; Ken Ham is a great resource, and though I prefer Kent Hovind (a KJB believer from Pensacola), Answers In Genesis is a good ministry. If you're ever close to northern Kentucky, you should visit the Creation Museum on I-275; it's incredible and completely worth the reasonable fee. The Museum is an extension of the AiG ministry.

Again...thanks. My Aunt and Uncle (who were after me for 30 years to come to Jesus) are a part of that ministry and recently went to the museum. It is an awesome place with people coming from all over the world to see it. I will definitely check out your reference, also. Blessings...

If I recall, Kent Hovind is not a proponent of the Gap theory either. I have never really seen a reason to accept the Gap interpretation of Genesis myself, but I don't think I have ever really rejected it either. I have a lot of respect for both views and I think there are good men on both sides of the debate. IMO it's not worth arguing about, I have seen people get dogmatic and really flip out over stuff like this and to me it's just not something believers have to take a side on.

I think the real "truth war" we need to wage is for the minds of our young people regarding Creationism vs. Evolution, not whether there is a gap in Genesis. I'm sure one day the Lord will explain all the details and we will and all rejoice in the knowledge.

For those who may have never heard him, here are some videos of Bro. Hovind, Part 1 on the left column covers the age of the Earth, I'm not sure of he covers the Gap Theory, it's old but pretty good material and parts are quite funny:
http://science-paris.blogspot.com/20...ap-theory.html

Bro. Hovind disagrees with the Gap because of his understanding that it is designed to fit millions of years or "Geologic Ages" into the Bible. This is untrue, but other than that (and his tendency to refer to Greek or Hebrew a couple times) I agree with him most heartily.

But I agree, Bro. Parish; the Gap issue really isn't an issue, just a discussion point: the real problem is the fact that our nation's children are force-fed this evolution nonsense day in and day out, and they never are told that evolution is simply the hole-ridden hypothesis of a deranged seminary student. Evolution truly is one of the worst evils of today: it relegates man to a sentient animal whose sole purpose is the proliferation of its species at any cost.

Same here.:nod:

faith
 

The “gift” of Ephesians 2:8-9 is salvation, not faith. Romans 6:23 tells us “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”. Ephesians 2: 8 & 9 tells us there is something that is the gift of God. This something is given to us and it is something that we can’t work for; “Not of works”. I’ve heard of people working for salvation, working for eternal life, working for God’s approval…etc, but I’ve never heard of anyone working for faith. That doesn’t make any sense. Salvation is the gift that is given by God’s grace and is received by us by faith. The idea that faith is the gift of God comes from Calvinism. Calvinists teach that the lost man has no will so God has to give him the faith to believe; a concept foreign to Scripture.

What about “the faith” of Jesus Christ as mentioned in Galatians 2:16 & 20? Jude 3 tells us to earnestly contend for “the faith”. “The faith” referred to in Jude 3 is the body of truth that has been delivered to the saints (and is now available to us in God’s Word, the Authorized Version or KJV). Galatians 2:16-21 is contrasting justification by works versus justification by faith. “The faith” of Jesus Christ or “the faith” of the Son of God is not taking about Jesus’ faith. It’s referring to the truths of Jesus’ work on cross and resurrection so that we can be justified by faith versus being justified by works which also includes our co-crucifixion with Him and Him now being our life. If you will read Galatians 2:16 & 20 in the light of “the faith” of Jesus Christ referring to the truths about Jesus’ work on the cross and not His faith they will make a lot more sense.


“For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)” (Romans 5:17)