Dispensational Truth and Error
It is no secret that there has been a big conflict between myself and Bro George lately. My disagreement with him is not that there are not dispensations in the Bible. It is not that the word of truth should be rightly divided.
My biggest concern is that this teaching teaches that the Jews are saved in a different manner than the Gentiles, that there is more than one gospel. I personally believe there is only one gospel. Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. That this is the same gospel preached to all believers is shown in chapter 3. Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. A dispensationalist might argue this verse only applies to Gentiles, but the words "In thee" show that it also applied to the Jews. Anyway, I found this very informative article. The reason I am posting it is because it goes into detail about this very important difference in belief between some of us here. I'm sure it will open up much discussion. I hope that everyone here can discuss their differences with civility. Here is the entire article. Quote:
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Revelation 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.Do you preach that when you share the Gospel with someone? No? There is proof right there that there is more than one Gospel in the Bible. Can you put this to rest now? Quote:
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What do you do with Matthew 24? Do you preach this Gospel? Matthew 24:13-14 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.If you preach that Gospel, you preach that salvation is conditional and not even sure until the end! Now, if the Jews were saved by believing the same "Gospel" as you, how is it that even Peter was rejecting the Gospel even up until after Christ was resurrected? The rest of this is from an article I previously wrote, to which nobody has provided an adequate response as to how Peter could have been believing the Gospel you and I must believe: Here is the Lord Jesus Christ putting “the cross” in a nutshell: Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. What was Peter’s response? Mark 8:32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. Peter’s response was to rebuke the Lord. Today, when someone rebukes the Gospel, we call that person lost. Peter certainly wasn’t “looking forward to the cross.” What about looking “back” to the cross? Luke 24:6-11 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. And they remembered his words, And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not. What do we call someone who “believes not” the resurrection? Lost! If Peter (and the other Apostles) were “looking forward to the cross” they certainly would not have denied the resurrection after it happened. |
Brandon
You have shown that you do indeed believe the Jews are saved in a different manner from the Gentiles. This is the major difference between us. The article I posted goes into detail on this. And I agree with this writer, that believers in the OT believed what God had revealed to them at that time. No, Abraham did not necessarily understand Jesus Christ, but he did believe God would send a Saviour. This was the gospel revealed at that time. It was not fully revealed, but it was the message of Jesus Christ to come. And Abraham was saved by believeing what was revealed to him at the time. Abraham could not be held responsible for knowing more than was revealed to him at the time. As far as Revelations 14:6-7, who is this message about other than Jesus Christ? We understand that Jesus is God from these verses. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. We understand that Jesus is the Judge. 2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. We understand that Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Revelations 14:6-7 is about Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Gospel. The author of that article shows many verses to prove that not only Jews in the OT were saved through faith in Christ (as revealed at their time), but also those Jews who will receive Jesus during the tribulation. And in Matthew 24:13, what does it mean he that endureth unto the end? is this speaking of works? Or God's Word? Mark 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? 14 The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. 18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, 19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. 20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. |
Brother George is not suggesting we preach "another Gospel" in this age, he is of course preaching the Gospel of grace, the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross, but to say there is only one Gospel in the Bible is a blind leading the blind statement. (Kingdom Gospel, and the everlasting Gospel (future) that Brandon pointed out.)
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Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. You have somewhere in your swings and roundabouts manner concluded that Bro George is a Hyper Dispensationalist, this is NOT true, he is as most will be on this Board (myself included) a Moderate Dispensationalist. to not rightly divide between times past, times present and times future leaves you suggesting salvation can be lost through verses that don't apply to you or I in this dispensation. None of your posts make sense, they contradict each other in so many places I cannot even begin to comment, I don't intend to either for anyone that cannot and WILL NOT put scripture in context as to WHO it is for and WHEN it is for. Quote:
Dont even think of using these verses against a Brother that teaches there are 3 gospels past / present/ future YOUR BIBLE SAYS SO! These verse apply to the teaching I have underlined above, not anyone who is saved by Grace through faith, preaches Grace through faith, preaches Christ Crucified, but yet still recognises the FACT that the Bible divides between 3 different Gospels. past/present/future Your mind is made up, No one now can possibly show you the truth except the Holy Spirit of God, especially not now when you are so blinded by wrongly applied scripture you are resorting to using scripture to suggest those of us who clearly see the 3 gospels are accursed. We aren't preaching the Kingdom Gospel, we aren't preaching the Everlasting Gospel (I'm certainly no Angel) WE are preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ Crucified, the Gospel of Gods grace. I agree with Brandon you really need to drop this and stop going round and round and round, your making yourself sick and the rest of us dizzy. 2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. |
The simple fact is OT saints were not saved the same way as us, and ANY baptist will admit this, whether your name is Winman or George.
1) When an OT saint dies, where does he go? 2) When a NT saint dies, where does he go? 3) Why does an OT saint go to paradise? 4) Why does a NT saint go to heaven? 5) How did the OT saint get to paradise? 6) How did the OT saint get to heaven? 7) How does the NT saint get to heaven? And here are the answers. If you don't agree winman, correct me... I assume you will know the Bible verses for this. This is generally one of the first things new Christians learn after accepting the KJB as final authority, and studying Hell (every new young KJB believer has a fascination with hell and damnation for some reason, and preaching it non stop, until they learn more about God's grace). 1) Paradise/Abraham's Bosom 2) Heaven 3) He goes to paradise because his sins are covered by animals blood, not washed away 4) He goes to heaven because his sins are washed away by Jesus blood 5) He goes to paradise by trusting in the shed blood of the sacrifices to cover his sin, which were part of the LAW, and which were necessary to show one's faith. Faith + Law. 6) He gets to heaven after he waits in paradise for Jesus Christ shed blood to WASH away his sins 7) He gets to heaven by trusting in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Ultimately, both ARE saved the same way, by the blood of Jesus Christ. You gotta get past the faith alone bit. It's not important. What is important is that all men are saved by the BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. Your faith means nothing if it's not in the blood. Faith in the OT was not in Jesus, nor was it in his shed blood. It was in pictures of his shed blood, which were part of the LAW. |
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This "only one gospel in the Bible" is the wadded-up-in-a-ball theology of John R. Rice. "Fine Old Testament Christians who looked forward to the cross..." There were no Christians in the OT, and OT Jews were and will be in the Tribulation saved in a different manner than the Body of Christ: Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; This was the gospel of Peter and the other 11: You murdered your Messiah, He died for you, be prepared for the wrath to come of Joel 2. The kingdom of heaven is at hand! John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Ro 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man‘s foundation: Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. 11 Therefore loosing from Troas, we came with a straight course to Samothracia, and the next day to Neapolis; 12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days. This is the verse that is overlooked and ignored, not commented on, and least of all believed: Php 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. The 12 surrendered the five commissions given to them by a risen Christ to Paul, Paul began to preach but was forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach where Peter, James, and John had already preached and established churches. Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: Is Paul's gospel the same gospel as the Everlasting Gospel of Revelation, as Brandon pointed out? I'm at odds with quit a few of my Grace brethren who came out of mostly IFB and other fundamentalist churches because they still holding to the unScriptural "seven" dispensations of CI Scofield: There are only 3, Time past, But now, Ages to come. The preaching of the cross is what saves, not dispensationalism, and anyone who wants to believe there is only "one gospel" in the Scriptures is free to do so and has a lot of company: Every Roman Catholic on the planet. Grace and peace friends Tony |
Luke: nail on the head.
Winman: Just to be clear, I don't believe for a second that anyone could ever be saved without the shed blood of Christ. However, nobody in the Old Testament preached, heard, or believed "the Gospel" that we hear and believe today. In all times salvation is of God's grace, but in all times that grace is conditioned on doing what God says. Today, our Gospel is simple as easy: believe. Before Christ, and even for a little while after, it was not the same "message"/Gospel. |
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Grace and peace Tony |
Just to make it clear Salvation is of God and many scriptures attest to this fact.
Ps 3:8 Salvation [belongeth] unto the LORD: thy blessing [is] upon thy people. Selah. Ps 62:1 ¶ <<To the chief Musician, to Jeduthun, A Psalm of David.>> Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him [cometh] my salvation. Ps 65:5 [By] terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, O God of our salvation; [who art] the confidence of all the ends of the earth, and of them that are afar off [upon] the sea: Ps 68:19 Blessed [be] the Lord, [who] daily loadeth us [with benefits, even] the God of our salvation. Selah. Ps 96:2 Sing unto the LORD, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day. Ps 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen. Ps 119:41 ¶ VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, [even] thy salvation, according to thy word. Ps 119:81 ¶ CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: [but] I hope in thy word. Ps 119:123 ¶ Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness. Lu 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. Ac 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it. Faith is in God for salvation no matter which dispensation. Just for today God offers his grace through the work of Christ on the cross if we believe we receive his grace and salvation is our free and clear. OT the Jews if they had faith in God's word did the sacrifices of the law and received God grace. if they believed and did not the sacrifices no grace was given. so their faith had to have the works of the Law added to it. today we do not need works, for the work of the law was fulfilled in Christ and all one needs is faith to receive the free gift of Salvation |
Obviously, some of you did not read the article I presented, or simply disagree with it. I presented this article for several reasons. First, I have already presented scriptures that I believe contradicts many of the views here. Second, this was written by a Baptist pastor who is a dispensationalist. I thought that would carry more weight with those here than anything I might say. Third, I thought the article well written.
The author presented two verses especially I agree with Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. The author also presented several examples of men under the dispensation of Law who did not live godly lives, yet we know from scripture they were saved. The last example given was very good. Quote:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. As the author wrote, this man could not obey the law, as he was also nailed to a cross. But you see that he did believe Jesus to be the promised King who would come. Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. This man was saved by faith, not by works. The author also gave many other good examples such as Samson who lived a licentious life indeed. If it were not shown in Hebrews that he was saved, I think most would have believed him to be a lost man. And the author also speaks of Jews during the tribulation. I agree that the unbelieveing Jews will do sacrifice, but the 144,000 true believers in Christ will not. During Jesus ministry, you do see mention of those who believed by faith on Jesus. John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world. You see, these people believed God's word. They truly believed God would send the Prophet that Moses had spoken of. Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. This is the gospel. This was Jesus being preached in the Old Testament. And those who believed God's promise looked for this Prophet. These are those saved by faith without the works of the Law. John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. The gospel was preached throughout the Old Testament, starting with God's promise to Adam and Eve. Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Adam and Eve probably did not understand this. They could not see Jesus the Son of God living under the law and dying for our sins on the cross. But they believed what was revealed to them at the time and were saved by faith in Christ to come. As Galatians 2:6 says, "for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified". This means past, present, or future. |
it is not by works of the law anyone was in the past saved it was faith in Gods word and obedience to that word that brought his grace. they did the works to prove their faith.
I am so glad I don't have to prove anything because Christ did the work |
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The problem with what you believe is that it clearly contradicts Paul's teaching in Romans 4.
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. These verses clearly show that righteousness was imputed to Abraham through faith alone without works (vs. 4). They also show in vs. 23-24 that we today are saved by that same faith without works as Abraham. So, it was the very same gospel. And as I have shown before, Paul himself tells that Abraham heard the same gospel as Paul was preaching to the Gentiles. Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. I do not see how you can ignore this plain teaching. |
the gospel that was preached before is already spelled out in the context and it is not the gospel of grace but merely "In thee shall all nations be blessed." The Genesis account of what God told Abraham Paul clarified that the heathen (nations) would be justified through faith (blessed) and this by God himself.
However the Genesis account did not tell Abraham it was by faith alone, nor that it would be done by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. so Abraham had no Idea how God would bless the nations. Paul is showing us that the Gospel of Grace is the fulfillment of His promise to bless the nations through Abraham's seed Jesus Christ and that is all. Paul is not saying that the Gospel of Grace through the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins was preached to Abraham in Genesis 12, 18 and 22. you are the one who is ignoring the whole context of the immediate and cross referenced scriptures that show clearly what the the Word of God is saying. |
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Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Brother, it's not a matter of "reading", it's not a matter of "studying", it's a matter of believing. Grace and peace brother Win Tony |
Bro. Winman,
I have been reading your first post, the article you shared by Pastor Lee Spencer, I think he brings out some good points on Ultra-dispensationalism. "Personally, I have watched helplessly as a few close associates and long-time friends have embraced this untenable position. They soon become arrogant, hostile and condemning. Their self-imposed separation tends eventually to lead to bitterness and isolation... At the risk of being redundant, it is very important for the sake of emphasis, that we repeat once more the tragedies of ultra-dispensationalism. No matter what one believes about how people get saved in other dispensations, the dispensation we have to deal with is this dispensation. Our plea to unsaved men is not based upon what we believe about other dispensations. To major on teaching men about other ways of salvation in other dispensations clouds the present issue of how they must be saved in this dispensation (Acts 4:12). It is a cleverly designed ploy of Satan to keep us focused on the unimportant, while souls slip by us into an eternity without Christ. Precious souls, for whom Christ died, are dependent upon our giving them what they need to know about how they can be saved today. Furthermore, it needlessly divides brothers in Christ. It feeds the starving ego (which should be dead - Romans 6) of a believer looking for recognition as a teacher of the "whole counsel of God." It is a form of one-upmanship that in reality makes that one someone who will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19). It eventually affects one's relationship with other believers. A man can have right doctrine, and still live wrong, which sadly describes the problem of many who seek to follow Christ today. But a man cannot have wrong doctrine, and still live right. Works for salvation in any dispensation is wrong, and it puts stumbling blocks in the paths of others who are seeking God's truth." |
BroP,
Ditto and Amen! |
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From corner one, I am waiting to find out if there is such a strict law of grace that it precludes believers from being saved if they don't perfectly understand that salvation is by grace alone, not of works of any kind (If such a strict standard applies then I was not saved for years after I thought I was). I don't know the answer. I will find out, God willing. What does the following quote from Winman's preacher mean? What I just said above or does it mean that this teacher thinks "hyperdispensationalism" allows for sin since we are under grace and excuses it? His argument about dividing the body of Christ, starving ego, recognition as a teacher, one-upmanship doesn't hold water for me. That is the argument of the status quo. It has no bearing on the truth; it's irrelevant. Quote:
Your posts here, Bro. Parrish and brother chette, show me that although you protest that salvation is of faith alone, you don't really believe it. Please tell me, how could you support this twisted teaching in this guys' sermon? Can't you see that his teaching is indicative of the false doctrine that has confused brother Winman? AMEN to that sermon??? It is so full of error and strawmen arguments I honestly don't know where to begin, but I'll start here: Quote:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. Quote:
Are you really going to say amen to a sermon filled with straw-man arguments? A word study on grace? This is elementary. God's grace is the only reason any human being is saved in any dispensation. Ten year old christians know this. Do I have to copy and paste Hebrews and James here? Is this one gospel only? Are you like Whirlwind? Will you defy the plain words of scripture for a private interpretation? Winman? Whirlwind was banned for questioning the inerrancy of the scriptures. What's the difference between this and that? Galatians 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; I have great respect for the likes of Ironside which you linked in another thread, Bro. Parrish. I'll be studying this, but I have to say that the arrogance, hostility and condemnation has not exactly been coming from Tonybones' corner. I have seen more kindness and charity come from this man than from some others on this board, I have to include myself in that. |
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I can appreciate this preacher's opinions and his slanted view on it being "untenable", bless God yes it's "untenable" if he don't personally know one person in the movement, has never attended a Grace church and know nothing about us except through Harry Ironside, Peter Ruckman, or something he read somewhere written by someone who didn't know what they were talking about either. People asked me on the street ministry, what is a Grace dispensationsalist? My reply was we are fundamentalist independent Baptists who don't practice or teach water baptism. Now, what easier explanation can a person give? I belive the same "fundamentals" of the faith George, Brandon, and brother Parrish believes. To say A grace believer teaches that dispensationalism gives a license to sin is pure slander, in plain Jacobean English, it's a lie. I've never heard it. I've never taught it. I know I don't need to "confess" my sins, they were forgiven 2000 years ago, but dispensational teaching gives no Christian the license to go get blistering drunk in a bar. Have I ever given you a string of Scripture and then said, "Here Jen, believe what I do, it gives you a license to sin." I have the same album of recordings you do, did he say something I missed? Richard Jordan is the only man at this time I'd walk across the street to listen to a message being preached, is there somewhere he has preached that dispensationalism gives a license to sin? Has Cornelius Stam of the Bereans ever published anything that says that? My point and my conclusion is I've never heard this before, this is the first I ever heard that the Grace dispensational teaching gives a "license to sin". Oh, I know of the accusations since Day One that it "spilts churches". No one will give me the name of one church that was split by "hyperdispensationalism". Now, I'm not throwing stones at Brother Parrish, but I asked him this question in the Water Baptism thread when it stopped being a Scripture study and became a forum for Harry Ironside and Peter Ruckman's opinions, read his reply to me. I know in the late 80s-early 90s Jack Hyle's church, that was claimed to be "the largest fundamentalist, soul winning church in America" didn't split, it exploded, and not because of "hyperdispensationalism", but because Hyles got busted in the revelation that he had been having a "love" affair with his personal secretary for 20+ years. He must have been a Grace believer!!! John 11:35 Jesus wept. 1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. Thank you for your kind comments sister. Grace and peace to you, and brother Parrish, Win and Chette, and everyone reading this. Tony |
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There is actually an entire book at that link, with several chapters on the errors of the Hyperdispensational doctrine. Quote:
on your part, sister. Have you been attending Chette's royal college of hypocrisy? YES, I condemn false teaching. I also make a lot of encouraging and positive remarks here, but I will condemn false teaching. That is scriptural. If Ultras and Hypers don't want negative comments about their doctrinal errors and cheap stabs at Baptist preachers, then let them post their ideas on a private forum where no one can say a word. But I rarely make personal attacks or judgments about the people here, and I try not to call them "chickens or neanderthals" either. :rolleyes: Look, I made ONE POST ON THIS THREAD, and it was to Winman. If that constitutes arrogance, hostility and condemnation, perhaps the eggshells are getting too thin around here. Meanwhile Jennifer, while you have been over here judging me, Tony and I have been sharing hobbies over on another thread. So please don't ASSUME we are mortal enemies simply because we see the ordinance of believer's baptism differently. Besides, anyone who loves Apple computers can't be all bad. :) |
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I'm sure Bill Gates would agree with you.
But then Bill always was a Hyper when it came to partitioning his hard drive in Vista. :) |
Greenbear said;
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But I don't really understand what you are saying. You do not believe the scriptures were a progressive revelation? What scriptures did Job know? None. There were no scriptures in his day. At the time of Moses did books like Ezekiel or Nahum exist? No! God revealed the scriptures to various prophets over centuries of time. But the gospel has been there from the start when God promised Adam and Eve that he would put enmity between Eve's seed and the seed of the serpent. Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Who do you think this prophesy is about? It is about Jesus Christ of course. So from the very beginning God was foretelling of Jesus coming to save us from our sins. But not all details were given here, as time went by God revealed even more about Jesus. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. These scriptures were written centuries after Moses penned the Book of Genesis. You see more and more details about Jesus provided. Did Moses know Jesus would come from Bethlehem? No. But in Jesus day the scribes did know the Messiah would come from Bethlehem. Matt 2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. 5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. The priests and scribes back in David's day could not have told you that Jesus would come from Bethlehem, this information was not revealed until many centuries later by the prophet Micah. So how do you say that the scriptures were not a progressive revelation? And the gospel is the same. No, they did not understand that Jesus would live under the law, go to the cross for our sins, die, be buried, and rise from the dead. Oh, there were plenty of scriptures telling those very things, but they did not put them together. But the gospel was being shown from the very beginning. And this is why Paul said; Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. The scriptures themselves say the gospel was preached unto Abraham. And Jesus confirms this. John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Abraham knew about Jesus, Jesus said so himself. Abraham knew the gospel. |
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Abel believed his own works could not cover sin. Job prophesied that after his skin worms destroy his body that he will in his flesh see God. He knew he would have to have a resurrected incorruptible body in the presence of the Lord. Abraham said to Isaac that God would provide himself a lamb. God showed David Christ's suffering on the cross. God told Daniel that he would die but that he would stand with his lot at the end of the days. Consider the message the angel Gabriel gave to Mary. It was only about the Messiah's role for Israel, nothing whatsoever to do with the gentiles. Luke 1:30-33 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. God's entire dealing with mankind from the fall of Adam through to eternity points to the cross of Christ either looking forward or backward. Every person who has ever lived or ever will live can only be saved because the Lamb of God was slain to take away the sins of the world. Men of faith throughout history have understood that God promised salvation to those who would believe what He says about Himself. The Jews expected Christ to establish his Kingdom at His coming. They didn't even foresee that Jesus had come to die let alone the setting aside of Israel and Paul's gospel to the gentiles. Paul did not receive his gospel from any progressive revelation. It was a mystery which God had kept secret since the world began. Eph*3:1 ¶ For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, Eph*3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Eph*3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph*3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Eph*3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Eph*3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Eph*3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Eph*3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; Eph*3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Eph*3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Eph*3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph*3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Eph*3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. Eph*3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Eph*3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, Eph*3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; Eph*3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, Eph*3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; Eph*3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Eph*3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Eph*3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. When the fulness of the gentiles have come in then the seventieth week of Daniel starts where where the sixty-ninth week ended with Christ's birth. The church Christ's body will be evacuated from the earth and the Holy Spirit will no longer permanently indwell believers as He does now. During the tribulation any man who takes the mark of the beast or the number of his name will be lost forever. 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from every tribe will be sealed by the Holy Spirit and they cannot sin. Tribulation saints are told they have to endure to the end to be saved. An angel flies in the heaven announcing to men on earth at that time the "everlasting gospel": Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev 14:7 This is not the same gospel we are saved by now at this time. "Everlasting gospel" doesn't mean it is the one and only gospel that has ever existed throughout God's dealings with man. It is a specific gospel preached by an angel at that time. The blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world is the only method of salvation. There is no other name under heaven whereby men must be saved. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. It is the programs that God uses to deal with men at certain times that change. In the present time we are born of the Spirit, sealed by the Holy Spirit, there is no law for us and that is completely unique from any other dispensation past or future. |
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You are correct, the Jews were looking for the Christ to come and reestablish the kingdom. But that is not why Jesus came at his first coming. Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. And that is the gospel right there. Just because the Jews did not fully understand the scriptures, does not change God's purposes. Take the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. He was reading the scriptures in Isaiah. He did not understand these scriptures, the meaning was a mystery to him. But Philip showed him these scriptures were about Jesus suffering and dying on the cross. Acts 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert. 27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. You see, these scriptures in Isaiah were always about Christ, but the Jews did not understand them, they were a mystery. That does not change the fact that this was the gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ. Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. There it is right there, that Jesus would come and die on the cross to save us from our sins. Just because the Jews did not understand this scripture does not mean it didn't exist or that God did not declare the gospel. If these scriptues were not about Jesus, then why does the scripture say that Philip began at that same scripture and preached unto him Jesus? To believe that something doesn't exist until you understand it is faulty logic. John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Remember, when Jesus said this not one word of the New Testament existed. Jesus told them the Old Testament testified of him. Just because some may not have understood this does not change this fact. |
Bro. Parrish, Chette,
I see nothing in Paul's gospel to the gentiles telling us to practice water baptism. If you believe it is an ordinance for the church today but is not required for salvation then I don't understand the bitter controversy about the issue from your side. I have my belief about the harm the water baptism error has accomplished in the body of Christ but I don't push it. The real source of confusion for me is that "moderate" dispensationalists level charges of near heresy and all sorts of character assassination against grace believers. I don't see it. I got upset because I am trying to see the big picture, how these things critics say could possibly be true. I figure I must be missing something and I'm frustrated because I just don't see it. Bro. Parrish, you must have been reading my posts to know my particular weaknesses. I had a flash of anger at you because in my view you take every opportunity to take your swipes at Tony. I got tired of seeing it and took my swipe at you. Sorry. Brother Chette, you just posted what you did at the exact wrong time. Sorry. I always look forward to your posts. |
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The mystery was not that Christ had to die on the cross and there would be two comings. That information is already revealed in the old testament whether Israel as a nation understood the prophesies or not. The "mystery" is the gospel that Paul received directly from Jesus Christ. Jesus hinted at it with his pearl of great price parable but other than that I am not aware of anywhere it can be found before it was revealed to Paul. The gentiles who never had the law being directly indwelled by the Holy Spirit and put in His body completely apart from God's program for the Jews. Israel completely bypassed and set aside for a period of time! Paul's gospel of grace is completely new, has nothing whatsoever to do with the law that was committed to Israel. We are talking about the gospel of grace, not Christ crucified and His two comings. Paul's gospel of grace could not have existed along side God's program for the nation Israel. Paul's gospel of grace to the gentiles could not have existed along side Christ's Millennial Kingdom which would have started if Israel as a nation would have accepted Him after he was resurrected. It could only ever exist after national Israel rejected her messiah. It is completely removed from God's program with Israel which is the Law. Just because Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are called the gospels doesn't mean that Jesus coming a the God-Man, dying on the cross for the sins of the world, rising on the third day and ascending to the Father is the only gospel. We all know the gospel means good news. It just so happens that Paul's gospel is also a new dispensation. The scriptures clearly state in many places that there are different gospels, or different messages of good news. They are all incumbent upon the death and resurrection of Christ. |
That is just not so. There are many prophesies in the Old Testament concerning the Gentiles.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. The root of Jesse is Jesus Christ. Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. And we know this is Jesus, because these verses are shown in Matthew. Matt 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; 16 And charged them that they should not make him known: 17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. There are many other verses besides these in the Old Testament that revealed the gospel would also be preached to the Gentiles. This is what is wrong with hyper-dispensationalism. You have the Bible so sliced and diced and cannot conceive of scripture or doctrine applying to more than one age. This is a great error of this type of teaching. There are many scriptures in the OT pointing to the gospel and that it would also be revealed to the Gentiles. Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. And in Romans Paul shows many such verses in the OT that applied to the Gentiles receiving the gospel. Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust. This was Paul in Romans confirming that these OT scriptures foretold of the gospel being preached to the Gentiles. |
To be perfectly honest and In the spirit of fellowship, I would suggest that this topic is dropped, Scripture has been given to Winman to show our beliefs countless times, he has given us scripture which HE believes is right, it is quite apparent that Brother Winman wont change his mind or see the wood for the trees and I know for one I certainly wont change My mind and this just goes round and round and round and I feel quite sick in the stomach now with this topic.
And on a side note can you please quit labelling people Hypers Dispensationalists because they believe the Bible contains more than one Gospel |
Never was it revealed that Israel would be set aside and the gentiles saved apart from Israel.
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God did not cast away all Israel. Read Romans 11 in which Paul reveals OT scripture concerning the gospel going to the Gentiles.
Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. So, Paul here shows that God did not cast away Israel, for he was a Jew himself. And all the early Christians were Jews. What you do not understand is believeing Jews versus unbelieveing Jews. And in Romans 10 Paul tells of both Moses and Isaiah foretelling of the Gentiles being offered the gospel. Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. So not all Israel was cast away as Paul shows. And Israel was not saved apart from the Gentiles, they are one body. Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. So, this is another false teaching of hyper-dispensationalism. |
Winman, I am through arguing with you.
but for the record no one not anyone on this forum has ever said that God was through with Israel. We know he has temporarily set them aside as usable vessels to reach the Nations. and we are not hyper-dispensationlists. |
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Food for thought.......
Thanks brothers and sisters for the discussion. I lean towards Bro. Winman's position of one gospel. How does one reconcile these verses?
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, Paul's gospel (singular) has existed since the world began. One could say it is everlasting, and is synonymous with the gospel of Rev. 14.6. Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. The Gentiles were preached the gospel (singular) unto by Peter's mouth. How could Peter's gospel to the Gentiles be different than Paul's gospel to the Gentiles? Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. It is interesting that Paul mentions an angel from heaven. Is the angel of the everlasting gospel of Rev. 14:6 accursed? Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? Peter was not living uprightly according to the truth of the gospel (singular), which gospel, if there is two? Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. I don't see how multiple gospels can coexist with Jesus' statement "to every creature". 1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 1Co 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. Paul clearly lays out the gospel (singular) here and says he (Paul) and they (the other apostles) preach (present tense) it. Blessings to you all. John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. |
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http://www.angelfire.com/nt/books/hy...tionalism.html http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/wrongly1.html Ultimately, every believer will have to examine the scriptures and decide for themselves. This has proven to be a divisive topic, but fortunately many of us here can still respect one another and agree on other issues. |
The concept of dispensations gets you on the right track. I find I hold a lot of the views of a hyperdispensationalist.
The key is that the nation of Israel was a son of God in a collective sense; Israelites were not individually sons of God. The nation of Israel was God's son. That changed in Matthew 11. His invitation changed from on a national basis to on an individual basis. Israel as a nation was rejecting their Messiah so we are back to a remnant just like always happens at the end of a dispensation. Every dispensation has ended in man's failure so God moves on with the next phase of His plan. In Matthew 11 we have the invitation to come to Jesus. It is directed toward individuals: Matthew 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. The following parable fits what I am saying, I believe. Christ's individual appeal went first to the individual Jews who would believe (Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind) and then to individual gentiles (Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled). Luke 14:16-24 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city (Jerusalem/ The Jews), and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. (Sounds like the people who responded to Jesus' earthly ministry to Israel)[/B]And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper. Compare these verses: And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper. For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans 11:25 This is a very complex subject. I'm not sure anybody fully understands it. I think people need to recognize the distinction between the mystery and the church. The church doesn't equal the mystery that Paul talks about. The church encompasses the mystery but the church is more than the mystery. The "church" includes the apostolic church and perhaps believers before Christ was sacrificed. That last part is definitely just a musing... . The mystery revealed to Paul is that gentiles would be saved apart from the ministry of Israel; that individuals would be indwelled by the Holy Spirit and would be equipped to keep the law in the spirit; that there would be no condemnation to those who were born of the Spirit and called to be sons of God (individually). The church started out jewish then transitioned to jewish but adding on a small number of gentiles then transitioned to gentile when Paul's ministry to the gentiles started with a jewish component (the apostolic church) then transitioned to no distinction between jew and gentile It is apparent that covenant theologians have completely missed the boat. To paraphrase Tony, they came to a screeching halt at the reformation. I certainly don't have the whole thing figured out but my husband and I am getting glimpses at least into what questions need to be asked and that we all have preconceived ideas that make it hard to see what the scriptures are telling us. Then there's the confusion that arises because the word "gospel" means different things. I think what the word "gospel" means to most believers is John 3:16. That is the 'good news" that all of human history looks forward to and that eternity will look back on. Without this "gospel" it would be better for every man that he had never been born. But there is good news in the way God dispenses the ultimate good news to different people at different times. I'm not making this up. The Bible teaches this. The concept of gospel applies to more than one message. I used to believe as Winman does when I was a brand new christian. I had no discernment whatsoever. I was a baby. I felt I had to shut out any new teaching because I was terrified of being deceived. I had so little discernment that I ended up in a cult, got out of that then right back in with a bunch of charismatic crazies. I'm probably only a child now but at least I'm eating solid food. Winman's not in a cult of which I am thankful. But I am wondering how long he has been a christian. All it takes is a simple prayer of faith to the Lord to show you the truth about a matter. He will do it if we ask Him. The Lord will open our understanding to His word if we will allow Him to. |
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Paul obviously preached the gospel of Christ crucified. Nobody denies this fact. This is the same gospel the twelve Apostles to the circumcision preached. Paul was an apostle born out of due time, he wasn't with Jesus during His earthly ministry. He believed on and was directly taught by the risen, glorified Christ who is seated in heavenly places. Jesus directly revealed the "mystery" to Paul that had been hidden since the beginning of the world: Galatians 1:11-12 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. "Paul's gospel" is not the preaching of the cross although of course Paul preaches Christ crucified. Please notice Paul differentiates between "my gospel" and the preaching of Jesus Christ. Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, That God had to come to die for the sins of the world was revealed in scripture as early as Genesis. Although not understood by Israel during Christ's earthly ministry, it was not a mystery kept secret since the world began. The mystery revealed to Paul is the body of Christ made up of individuals who are indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit; saved wholly apart from God's program with Israel. No law. Only grace. Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Colossians 1:21-29 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. The bold text below tells us exactly what "Paul's gospel" is: Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: If there is no distinction between the gospel of the Circumcision and the uncircumcism then why did Paul have to reveal to the leaders of the church of the circumcism the mystery that Christ revealed first and exclusively to Paul? Galatians 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain Paul and the apostleship to the circumcism clearly recognized the difference: Galatians 2:7-10 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do. And why did Paul have to withstand Peter to his face if there was no difference? Galatians 2:11-21 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Were the apostleship to the circumcism in error regarding the temple practices and the ordinances they continued in ? I think not. Paul even continued in them until God showed him he was to preach only to the gentiles at a certain point. Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. The offer of the Kingdom of God was still open for a time. If national Israel would have accepted their Messiah He would have come back at that time and national Israel would once again have become the source of blessing to the gentiles. The change in emphasis from the gospel of the circumcism to Paul's gospel to the uncircumcism is transitional. The more fully we understand this the fewer difficult and seemily contradictory verses we encounter. |
Consider.....
Hello GB,
Jesus' Gospel to Nicodemus John 3:16 ... whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Peter's Gospel to Cornelius Acts 10:43 .... whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. Paul and Silas' Gospel to the Philippian Jailer Acts 16:31 ...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved Paul's Gospel to the Romans Rom. 10:11 ... Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. GB said, "Paul obviously preached the gospel of Christ crucified. Nobody denies this fact. This is the same gospel the twelve Apostles to the circumcision preached." And then said, "Paul and the apostleship to the circumcism clearly recognized the difference" This seems contradictory. |
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Remember, "gospel" is a message of good news. Paul's gospel of the mystery that he got directly from Jesus is grace by faith alone apart from the law. It is the indwelling of the believer by the Holy Spirit. This dispensation is the believer apprehending salvation by doing nothing but believing on Christ's finished work on the cross. It's completely separate from the system that Israel had been under. See, it's not another gospel in the sense of the object of our faith which is Christ paying the price for our sins, it's the new way God is dispensing His salvation. Salvation has always been of grace, but now it is by grace through faith alone, not by works. Faith is not shown by our works in this dispensation that Paul's gospel describes. You could say grace=faith alone in Paul's gospel which is the dispensation of grace. And grace=faith + works in other dispensations. Of course, the works are not keeping the Law perfectly (which is impossible for any man but Christ) or it would not be grace. It is simply performing what God requires in that dispensation. This dispensation the only requirement is faith. Paul's distinctive gospel is one of how God administers His grace rather than the source of His grace (Christ's finished work on the cross) which has always been the same. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12 |
Greenbear said
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I love the way you dispensationalists whether ultra, hyper, or whatever you call yourselves, believe yourselves to have superior knowledge and discernment over other Christians. It is just as several of the articles written by famous men of God have said. From Dr. H.A. Ironside: Quote:
If you would read his 7 chapter article, he will prove with scripture (rightly divided) that your belief system is absolutely full of error. Here is the article if you care (or should I say dare?) to read it. http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/wrongly1.html Pastor Ironside was absolutely correct about those who follow this false teaching. They are full of intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent. |
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