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Brother Tim 06-02-2009 04:46 PM

Sorry, folks... I need to do a little catching up....

Bro. Parrish asked:
Quote:

Bro. Tim, how did Jesus get on Earth as a human child?
When I mentioned this discussion to my mom, who had asked what the latest hot topic was, I mentioned that some might even try to compare the miraculous conception of the LORD Jesus with the Genesis 6 event. She nearly ripped my head off, and we're on the same side! To even vocalize that heresy about put her into a fit! There is so much horrible about the implications of your question that I cannot answer it and remain decent.

-------------

Winman said:
Quote:

Now if angels could take on a physical body as these two angels did, it is also completely possible that the "sons of God" in Gen. 6 were also angels that took on the physical form of man and mated with women. The children born would be flesh, they would be men.
You are stepping out into speculation and at the same time making a counter argument to the "fallen angel" side. Angels who took on the form of man and had human characteristics were doing so as messengers of God. They were "on duty". IF your last sentence is true, then their offspring would be no different than any other child. They would not be half-breeds. You defeat the very argument being made by the pro-giant folks.

Also, regarding the "seed" of the serpent, Jesus said of His adversaries, "Ye are of your father the devil". (John 8:44) It IS a spiritual and not physical seed. They bruised Jesus' heel.

---------------

Greenbear used the Jude and 2 Peter passages which do not connect overtly to the Genesis 6 event. The "sin" of the angels is not defined in either passage. We do know that angels were involved in Satan's rebellion. I believe that this is what is being addressed in these passages. Additionally, would you not think that their "crime" would have been addressed at that time, at least a hint? God was angry at MEN!! (v3,5) WHY?!?!

NOTE: I saw later that some others have repeated these verses, zeroing in on "estate" and "habitation" as evidence. Angels joined with satan in his rebellion. Those phrases could just as easily fit that event.

---------
From Bro. Parrish's post #76:

My response to his points:

1. My Bible does not have Nephilim in Genesis 6. My Bible is my final authority.

2. None of the verses that contain the phrase "sons of God" have the word "angel" in them. You must make an interpretation based on your understanding. The Scriptures themselves DO NOT make the connection.

3. Now you reverse your argument. "Sethites were never called the 'sons of God'." See response #2 above.... Neither were angels.

I make my connection with this: (underlining mine)
Quote:

Genesis 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God
------------

From Luke's post #79:

My responses to his points:

1. Regarding "There is no such thing as a godly line of anyone."
Quote:

Malachi 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
2. Regarding "A 'saved', 'righteous' or 'godly' person does not have gigantic children, anywhere in scripture." For the umpteenth time. Genesis 6:1-5 does not say that the "giants" were the offspring. Read the verse without modification! Look at the sentence connections.

3. Regarding "If seth is so godly, why did he do this thing, and why is everyone judged for it?" WHAT THING?!? :confused:


Sorry for some scattering... more posts came in while I was composing. I am posting without proofreading to avoid further posts sneaking in.

Brother Tim 06-02-2009 05:39 PM

Why did Abraham require of his servant that Isaac not get a wife from the neighboring people, but rather, return to his family (SETHITES) to get a wife. There is nothing recorded of God making this a requirement.

Then Isaac and Rebekah are grieved when Esau does marry foreign wives. Why?

I believe it goes all the way back in the traditions of the Sethites. They were to maintain a separation from the rest of mankind. They were distinct. Why would the genealogy of Jesus prior to Abraham be tracked otherwise? Tracing Him back to David established His royal credentials. Tracing Him back to Abraham established His national credentials. What purpose was there to go farther back, even to Adam, if not to show the Godly line. {Luke: being of the Godly line does not equate to being perfect or sinless, it simply identifies that one as being part of God's plans}

greenbear 06-02-2009 06:03 PM

I misread your post so I erased my post in response.

Bro. Parrish 06-02-2009 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 21436)
Sorry, folks... I need to do a little catching up....

Bro. Parrish asked:When I mentioned this discussion to my mom, who had asked what the latest hot topic was, I mentioned that some might even try to compare the miraculous conception of the LORD Jesus with the Genesis 6 event. She nearly ripped my head off, and we're on the same side! To even vocalize that heresy about put her into a fit! There is so much horrible about the implications of your question that I cannot answer it and remain decent.

Okay tell your mom to settle down brother.
What heresy, I simply asked you a question...
You're the one who brought up "spirit beings and virgins" back in no. 67, not me. ;)

Now it seems to me that no matter what we may think, there is clear scripture to show that the Spirit of God, (and God is a Spirit - John 4:24), chose at least some type of action with a human female to produce His blessed Son.

Now I don't know exactly what that was, and I'm not suggesting the virgin birth was identical to what happened in Gen. 6, (not at all) but when you look at that scripture I just don't see why it's so hard to accept that something could happen in the realm of angels and humans...

On one hand you implied there is "an absence of any other observable evidence" of the capability of some type of "SPIRIT BEINGS" to interact on some level with human females, yet on the other hand you seem to ignore the truth...

"Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1:34-35

greenbear 06-02-2009 08:17 PM

Quote:

Greenbear used the Jude and 2 Peter passages which do not connect overtly to the Genesis 6 event. The "sin" of the angels is not defined in either passage. We do know that angels were involved in Satan's rebellion. I believe that this is what is being addressed in these passages. Additionally, would you not think that their "crime" would have been addressed at that time, at least a hint? God was angry at MEN!! (v3,5) WHY?!?!

NOTE: I saw later that some others have repeated these verses, zeroing in on "estate" and "habitation" as evidence. Angels joined with satan in his rebellion. Those phrases could just as easily fit that event.
BT,
I hope you're retired or you won't have time to try to hit all these balls out of the ballpark one after another! You are a one man team unless someone else joins you! You hit a few foul balls tonight, I see. :cool:

I'll only deal with your response to me at this time.

You said: "Greenbear used the Jude and 2 Peter passages which do not connect overtly to the Genesis 6 event. The "sin" of the angels is not defined in either passage. We do know that angels were involved in Satan's rebellion. I believe that this is what is being addressed in these passages."


Scripture interprets scripture; you would have us believe that these verses do not deal with Genesis 6:1 but rather with Satan's rebellion. I can show you why they don't deal with Satan's rebellion.

If Jude 1:6 and 2 Pe 2:4-5 did deal with angels who were involved with Satan's rebellion then there would be no fallen angels that remain free.
Jude 1:6" And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."
2 Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

But there are fallen angels that remain free.
Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Additionally, 2 Pe 2:5 is separated from 2:4 with a semi-colon showing the two parts of the sentence are related. Please note that 2:5 references noah and the judgement of the flood upon the world of the ungodly. This very helpfully establishes the identity of the angels that sinned. They are the one and the same Son's of God from Gen 6. Jude 1:6 is a parallel passage to 2 Pe 2:4. Both verses relate specifically and exclusivelly to the Sons of God in Gen 6.

If you still maintain that these verses don't deal with Gen 6 please explain what you do believe they refer to. It clearly cannot be Satan's rebellion.
You said: "Additionally, would you not think that their "crime" would have been addressed at that time, at least a hint? God was angry at MEN!! (v3,5) WHY?!?!"

Are you saying that because those verses don't spell out how the angels sinned you won't believe the angels sin was mating with human women but you will believe the sin was Satan's rebellion (which I have already proven can't be true)?
So what you are saying is that because the verses don't specify the sin, you feel free to throw out a possible answer you don't like and you try to force an impossible answer to fit the verses. We've already established that 2 Pe 2:5 ties these verses to Gen 6 to Noah's day and the Flood. Yes, God was grieved at man in Gen 6. What does that have to do with the identity of the Son's of God in Gen 6? Are you saying that because God was grieved at man that proves the Son's of God were men? That's very weak, IMHO. I think it is easier just to believe what the scriptures say.

GB

Bro. Parrish 06-03-2009 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 21436)
None of the verses that contain the phrase "sons of God" have the word "angel" in them. You must make an interpretation based on your understanding. The Scriptures themselves DO NOT make the connection.

in reply to your post above;

Bro Tim, look at the CONTEXT of Job 38...

4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Brother, can you answer that question? Where were the MEN?
Man was not yet created when God laid the foundations of the earth brother.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and
all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Tim, if the sons of God are not angels, then who are they, JEWS?
Come on brother... :)

Brother Tim 06-03-2009 11:50 AM

Regarding Job 38 proving "sons of God" = angels: Not every creature in heaven is an angel. The name "angel" doesn't exist in Job 38.

Greektim 06-03-2009 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 21471)
in reply to your post above;

Bro Tim, look at the CONTEXT of Job 38...

4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Brother, can you answer that question? Where were the MEN?
Man was not yet created when God laid the foundations of the earth brother.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and
all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Tim, if the sons of God are not angels, then who are they, JEWS?
Come on brother... :)

I knew we had something in common Bro. Parish. I agree w/ you. :D

Brother Tim 06-03-2009 12:29 PM

Well, it's hopeless now!:(
Next we'll have cats and dogs sleeping together. {Spirit dogs of course.}

kevinvw 06-03-2009 12:43 PM

Or maybe the dogly line of Seth!? :eek:

Sorry, bad joke. :rolleyes:

greenbear 06-03-2009 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinvw (Post 21485)
Or maybe the dogly line of Seth!? :eek:

Sorry, bad joke. :rolleyes:

Belly laugh!

Bro. Parrish 06-03-2009 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 21478)
Regarding Job 38 proving "sons of God" = angels: Not every creature in heaven is an angel. The name "angel" doesn't exist in Job 38.

Tim you rascal, you avoided the question, WHO IS SHOUTING FOR JOY?
the word BIBLE doesn't exist in the BIBLE, but the Bible exists.
Your point is moot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greektim (Post 21480)
I knew we had something in common Bro. Parish. I agree w/ you. :D

LOL, okay Greektim, you have my permission
to beat Bro. Tim about the head on this issue... :)

Seriously folks, to me it's not that big of a deal.
There are good men on both sides of this...

Brother Tim 06-03-2009 03:12 PM

Quote:

LOL, okay Greektim, you have my permission
to beat Bro. Tim about the head on this issue...
HA! He hasn't been able to touch me for years! He even got sick when he came to Florida and had a lunch scheduled with me. Totally terrified! His knees were smiting each other. :D :pound: :boxing:

P.S. When I get back from church tonight, I am going to show how confusing this idea can be. Prepare to be astounded.

Brother Tim 06-03-2009 10:32 PM

Okay, let us do a little review:

Who are the "sons of God"?

In the NT, the phrase appears six times. In every case, it is identifying the saints, never heavenly or spirit non-human beings.

In the OT there are three locations where the phrase is used.
First, in Genesis 6, which we are discussing. There, these beings (no number given, only plural -sons-) produce offspring with multiple "daughters of men" who then become notable men of their era. Nothing more is said that narrows down the identities of these beings in the passage. The word "angel" does not appear as a link, while the title "angel" does appear elsewhere in Genesis.

Second, in the beginning two chapters of Job, "sons of God" are in the presence of the LORD when satan lays down his challenge. The obvious observation is that this takes place in Heaven during Job's lifetime. Again, nothing further is given to describe these beings. Again, the word "angel" does not appear as a link. "Angels" does appear later in Job 4.

Third, in Job 38, the LORD uses the phrase "sons of God" to identify heavenly beings who shouted for joy during the beginning stages of earth's creation. Again, the term "angel" was absent.

The OT "sons of God" have been assumed variously to be:

[1] Heavenly angelic or non-angelic beings (in Job 1-2 & 38)
[2] The spirits/souls of early OT saints (Job 1-2 in particular)
[3] Angelic beings, more specifically, fallen angels (Genesis 6 in particular)
[4] Decendents of Seth (Genesis 6 in particular)

In its broadest sense, "sons of God" could describe any or all created beings, spiritual or physical. I will agree that Job 38 was not speaking of humans (duh). These are created heavenly beings of some type.

-------------
Let us assume for a moment that those who support the "fallen angel" definition for Genesis 6 are right. I have these questions:

[1] When did the fallen angels fall? Most place this either prior to the six-day creation of earth, or during that time. Genesis 6 takes place much later. If 2 Peter and Jude are referring to this event, why did God allow them free reign for so long? On the other hand, if these passages refer to the event of rebellion, then these angels were already judged.

[2] How could this be limited in time scope or individuals participating? Are you claiming that all of the fallen angels chose to mate with human women all during the same pre-flood time period? If there were any who did not participate, then they were not under the 2 Peter/Jude judgment and therefore could have at a later point in time done the same thing.

[3] There appears to be two groups of thought: [a] The angels took on fleshly form in every aspect and thus the intercourse was possible. Then why would the offspring be any different than other human children? [b] The angels had some kind of created innate ability to impregnate women. Some have even compared this to Jesus' conception (which nauseates me!) This would require that God designed these spirit beings with spiritual sperm. Why?? Remember what Jesus said about the angels and marriage.

[4] IF giants were the resultant offspring (which as I have posted earlier, the sentence structure does not support), then this same behavior was present after the flood and throughout history, for there have been giants reported and documented. Does this not call into question the Jude judgment?

-----------

Finally, Bro. Parrish and his new buddy, GT, mock this venerable old saint by asking,
Quote:

Tim, if the sons of God are not angels, then who are they, JEWS?
Again, I say: Not every creature in Heaven is an angel! Angels are ONE form of heavenly being.

------------
Enough for now...

Bro. Parrish 06-03-2009 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 21565)
Finally, Bro. Parrish and his new buddy, GT, mock this venerable old saint by asking,

Quote:
Tim, if the sons of God are not angels, then who are they, JEWS?

Again, I say: Not every creature in Heaven is an angel! Angels are ONE form of heavenly being...

Come on buddy, you still haven't answered the simple question. Who shouted for joy in heaven when God laid the foundations of the earth?

Here's a hint:

Tim, by my count there are approximately 15 or more verses in the book of Revelation ALONE that mention angels shouting, sounding, vocalizing or crying with loud voices in heaven. I don't see any other forms of heavenly being doing this, do you?

10 "Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth." Luke 15:10

Brother Tim 06-04-2009 06:26 AM

From Bro. Parrish:
Quote:

Come on buddy, you still haven't answered the simple question. Who shouted for joy in heaven when God laid the foundations of the earth?
From my last post:
Quote:

In its broadest sense, "sons of God" could describe any or all created beings, spiritual or physical. I will agree that Job 38 was not speaking of humans (duh). These are created heavenly beings of some type.
That's as close to a factual answer as you can get. All else is speculation.

Brother Tim 06-04-2009 06:50 AM

Bro. Parrish, Are you using the term "angel" to describe all the heavenly hosts? Are the four beasts of the Revelation a type of angel? They participate in the praises. In fact, they are in the center of the congregation doing the praising. The Scriptures distinguish them from angels.
Quote:

Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Revelation 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

chette777 06-04-2009 07:39 AM

BroTim,

The four beast of Revelation 4 are Either Seraphim or Cherubim as their description matches that of Ezekiel 1:4-28 and 10:1-22. We tend theologically to classify them as angels but angels always look like men and have no wings. I like to say they are spiritual beings God created from everlasting (Eternity Past) that is why we find no mention of their creation in the Bible.

Brother Tim 06-04-2009 08:07 AM

Chette, I agree with you. I think that the description and behavior of the Revelation beasts matches that of the Seraphim and/or Cherubim of the OT. They are unique heavenly creatures always connected with the presence or throne of God. They are distinct from angels, God's messengers and emissaries.

Quote:

Tim, by my count there are approximately 15 or more verses in the book of Revelation ALONE that mention angels shouting, sounding, vocalizing or crying with loud voices in heaven. I don't see any other forms of heavenly being doing this, do you?
Bro. Parrish "overlooked" their participation in heavenly praises during the Revelation story. :)

My opinion is that these are the "sons of God" in Job 38. By the way, Bro. Parrish, I will return your question to you regarding Job 38...
Who are the morning stars who sing? Stars did not come into existence until day 4. [note: No fair going to the Hebrew again. ;)]

greenbear 06-04-2009 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 21431)
To refute the "godly line of seth"

i) There is no such thing as a godly line of anyone. Jesus genealogy was not godly - it included murderers, adulterers and harlots.

ii) A "saved", "righteous" or "godly" person does not have gigantic children, anywhere in scripture. The opposite is true. Goliath, had four brothers and all of them were his sons. He committed incest with his mother. Not a godly act.

iii) If seth is so godly, why did he do this thing, and why is everyone judged for it?

EXACTLY!!!

pbiwolski 06-04-2009 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKG (Post 21376)
Why would Jesus liken the last days before His second coming to the days of Noe? If you read what it says, the attitude of the people in light of the coming judgment is the context of Matthew 24:37-41 and Luke 17:26-30. That is what Jesus is telling us and nothing else. They continued their lives with a "business as usual" mentality and ignored the coming judgment. This is the point Jesus is making.

Oh, that isn't all...

Unless I missed it, no one has yet referenced Daniel 2 in connection to the words of Christ mentioned aboved and Gen. 6.
Dan. 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
There are the days of Noe in the future during the tribulation. And the wickedness condoned and encouraged by the presence of the Devil Incarnate is only comparable to the result of the sons of God cohabitting with the daughters of men. That wickedness that followed invited the judgment of God (flood) just as will the future.

Brother Tim 06-04-2009 02:09 PM

PB, re: Daniel 2:43.... bzzzz - sorry, does not match.

1 - This is prophecy of the Roman empire. It collapsed in part because as it spread, the control became disjointed due to incompatibility within the government structure because of intermingling with the captured nations.

2 - Mingling with the "seed of men" is not the same activity as "angelic seed" impregnating human women, unless we now have female-anatomy-equipped angels. :tsk:

Bro. Parrish 06-04-2009 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 21586)
Bro. Parrish, Are you using the term "angel" to describe all the heavenly hosts? Are the four beasts of the Revelation a type of angel? They participate in the praises. In fact, they are in the center of the congregation doing the praising. The Scriptures distinguish them from angels.

Nope, stop the wagon brother...
let me clear; my statement reflects only the results for the KJV term ANGEL or ANGELS. Not beast, seraphim, cherubim or Mickey Mouse, just ANGEL or ANGELS. :)

Please notice Tim, in the passages you listed I do not see any BEASTS or other creatures singing or shouting for joy. Do you? Maybe they did sing, but I don't see it, and I haven't searched on that. I know that Cherubims had wings and were placed at the east of the garden to keep the way of the tree of life, I think they generally appear as guardians in scripture, but what difference does any of this make with regard to the topic? Some of your verses are not even talking about angels or beasts making sounds at all, for example you posted about singing in Rev. 14:3 but that is the hundred forty and four thousand singing...
please pay attention brother. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 21586)
My opinion is that these are the "sons of God" in Job 38.

Wait, stop the wagon again...
so for some reason you have come to the conclusion that the Seraphim and/or Cherubim are the SONS OF GOD in Job 38, you think the SONS OF GOD in Job 38 are "heavenly beings," but you refuse to accept the possibility that SONS OF GOD in Job 38 or Gen. 6 are simply—ANGELS? How many shades of private revelation are you using here brother? :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 21586)
By the way, Bro. Parrish, I will return your question to you regarding Job 38... Who are the morning stars who sing? Stars did not come into existence until day 4. [note: No fair going to the Hebrew again.

Well no need for any Hebrew brother, I can cross reference my trusty KJV and see that ANGELS ARE CALLED STARS right here:

"The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." - Rev. 1:20 :) :) :)

Winman 06-04-2009 03:27 PM

Bro Tim

Poor guy, you are getting ganged up on here. :)

Yes, I pointed out in the story of Lot, that the two angels took on the form of men, and even ate food. Now, isn't that the proof that the Lord used to prove he was not a spirit after his resurrection?

Luke 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.


So, to prove to his disciples he was not a spirit, Jesus allowed them to touch him. And when they still believed not, he asked for food and ate before them.

And this is similar to the two angels in Gen 19. They ate food, and they physically touched Lot, his wife, and two daughters.

So, they were in a physical form.

And we do not know if angels can have relations with men or not. But you cannot use the argument from Mark 12

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

This verse says we will not marry in the resurrection. There will be no need, for we will have no need to procreate. And angels do not need to procreate either, although those that left their habitation may have chosen to do so.

But I like to believe we will still retain all our body members in the resurrection. And I believe when these two angels in Gen 19 took on the form of man, that physically they had the normal body members of men.

And what kind of body will we have in the resurrection? If we die long before the Lord comes, our natural body will return to dust. But we will be raised with an incorruptable body. But it is a body, not spirit.

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job says here after the worms destroy "this body", he will see God "in my flesh"

So, if we are like the angels as Jesus said, and our resurrected bodies will be flesh, wouldn't the angels be flesh also?

Brother Tim 06-04-2009 03:56 PM

The "as the angels" comparison has to do with marriage issue, not physical appearance or characteristics.

Quote:

Poor guy, you are getting ganged up on here.
I'm used to it. I was on FFF for quite a while. It is not hard to stand alone when one knows that he is right.

Again, since various folks continue to make the "angels can take on physical bodies" argument [granted, the condition itself is obviously true - in essence, they are "in disguise"] so they acted as human men and had intercourse with human women, then it cannot be avoided that the improper mating is still possible if it happened in Genesis 6.

greenbear 06-04-2009 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbiwolski (Post 21613)
Oh, that isn't all...

Unless I missed it, no one has yet referenced Daniel 2 in connection to the words of Christ mentioned aboved and Gen. 6.
Dan. 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
There are the days of Noe in the future during the tribulation. And the wickedness condoned and encouraged by the presence of the Devil Incarnate is only comparable to the result of the sons of God cohabitting with the daughters of men. That wickedness that followed invited the judgment of God (flood) just as will the future.

My husband johnlf will be happy to see someone else make that connection with Dan 2:43 and Gen 6. We've never seen any one else talk about it before but then again we're not really in the loop. I'll be sure to make sure he reads this thread.

greenbear 06-04-2009 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 21565)
Okay, let us do a little review:

Who are the "sons of God"?

In the NT, the phrase appears six times. In every case, it is identifying the saints, never heavenly or spirit non-human beings.

In the OT there are three locations where the phrase is used.
First, in Genesis 6, which we are discussing. There, these beings (no number given, only plural -sons-) produce offspring with multiple "daughters of men" who then become notable men of their era. Nothing more is said that narrows down the identities of these beings in the passage. The word "angel" does not appear as a link, while the title "angel" does appear elsewhere in Genesis.

Second, in the beginning two chapters of Job, "sons of God" are in the presence of the LORD when satan lays down his challenge. The obvious observation is that this takes place in Heaven during Job's lifetime. Again, nothing further is given to describe these beings. Again, the word "angel" does not appear as a link. "Angels" does appear later in Job 4.

Third, in Job 38, the LORD uses the phrase "sons of God" to identify heavenly beings who shouted for joy during the beginning stages of earth's creation. Again, the term "angel" was absent.

The OT "sons of God" have been assumed variously to be:

[1] Heavenly angelic or non-angelic beings (in Job 1-2 & 38)
[2] The spirits/souls of early OT saints (Job 1-2 in particular)
[3] Angelic beings, more specifically, fallen angels (Genesis 6 in particular)
[4] Decendents of Seth (Genesis 6 in particular)

In its broadest sense, "sons of God" could describe any or all created beings, spiritual or physical. I will agree that Job 38 was not speaking of humans (duh). These are created heavenly beings of some type.

-------------
Let us assume for a moment that those who support the "fallen angel" definition for Genesis 6 are right. I have these questions:

[1] When did the fallen angels fall? Most place this either prior to the six-day creation of earth, or during that time. Genesis 6 takes place much later. If 2 Peter and Jude are referring to this event, why did God allow them free reign for so long? On the other hand, if these passages refer to the event of rebellion, then these angels were already judged.

[2] How could this be limited in time scope or individuals participating? Are you claiming that all of the fallen angels chose to mate with human women all during the same pre-flood time period? If there were any who did not participate, then they were not under the 2 Peter/Jude judgment and therefore could have at a later point in time done the same thing.

[3] There appears to be two groups of thought: [a] The angels took on fleshly form in every aspect and thus the intercourse was possible. Then why would the offspring be any different than other human children? [b] The angels had some kind of created innate ability to impregnate women. Some have even compared this to Jesus' conception (which nauseates me!) This would require that God designed these spirit beings with spiritual sperm. Why?? Remember what Jesus said about the angels and marriage.

[4] IF giants were the resultant offspring (which as I have posted earlier, the sentence structure does not support), then this same behavior was present after the flood and throughout history, for there have been giants reported and documented. Does this not call into question the Jude judgment?

-----------

Finally, Bro. Parrish and his new buddy, GT, mock this venerable old saint by asking,Again, I say: Not every creature in Heaven is an angel! Angels are ONE form of heavenly being.

------------
Enough for now...

Brother Tim,

I only had time to deal with your first out of four questions to us. I'll try to do the rest later (I'm sure you're excited about that!).

Quote:

Let us assume for a moment that those who support the "fallen angel" definition for Genesis 6 are right. I have these questions:

[1] a) When did the fallen angels fall? Most place this either prior to the six-day creation of earth, or during that time. b) Genesis 6 takes place much later. c) If 2 Peter and Jude are referring to this event, why did God allow them free reign for so long? d) On the other hand, if these passages refer to the event of rebellion, then these angels were already judged.
a) As a proponent of the gap theory I hold that the fallen angels fell sometime between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.
b) Yes, of course.
c)There are 2 subsets of fallen angels. They are those referred to in Jude and 2 Pet who are in chains until the judgement and those who are still free. There are fallen angels that remain free.
Quote:

Ps 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
When you say "this event" I will assume you are referring to Gen 6 not the rebellion. Are you asking why God allowed the fallen angels to mate with human women at all or for a certain period of time or did He delay judgement and if so, why? God doesn't give us the answer to why He allowed it. This lack of information on His part has no bearing on whether or not the Son's of God are fallen angels.
d) Again, the verses can't refer to the rebellion because of Ps 78:49. There are two groups of fallen angels. All of the fallen angels obviously participated in Satan's rebellion. Some, but not all of the fallen angels left their own habitation.

Your sister,

Jennifer

Brother Tim 06-04-2009 06:39 PM

Response to GB's first comments:

Greenbear, based on your answers, particularly that there are fallen angels that did not participate in the Genesis 6 event, are you acknowledging that this is possibly an ongoing activity?

In reference to:
Quote:

God doesn't give us the answer to why He allowed it. This lack of information on His part has no bearing on whether or not the Son's of God are fallen angels.
GB, think about what you are saying. These women had no power to prevent this assault (Genesis 6:2 "...they took them wives of all which they chose.") God, foreknowing the actions of that these evil ones would commit, allowed this assault on unprotected, innocent women to take place for however long, and then immediately (and without comment, while at the same time expressing His anger with mankind) slammed the chains on them, leaving the results of their actions to further the destruction of mankind, AND on top of it, left others to perpetuate the same behavior later!?! Verse 3 and 5 scream out the perpetrators of this crime, MAN!

johnlf 06-04-2009 08:17 PM

Pardon me for jumping here, I've been very busy of late. You wrote:

"GB, think about what you are saying. These women had no power to prevent this assault (Genesis 6:2 "...they took them wives of all which they chose.") God, foreknowing the actions of that these evil ones would commit, allowed this assault on unprotected, innocent women to take place for however long, and then immediately (and without comment, while at the same time expressing His anger with mankind) slammed the chains on them, leaving the results of their actions to further the destruction of mankind, AND on top of it, left others to perpetuate the same behavior later!?! Verse 3 and 5 scream out the perpetrators of this crime, MAN!"

""GB, think about what you are saying. These women had no power to prevent this assault"

ermmm, not sure what you are getting at here. Since when have women ever had the ability to prevent being raped? If they are not able to prevent being overpowered by men, how could they prevent being overpowered by angels?

"God, foreknowing the actions of that these evil ones would commit, allowed this assault on unprotected, innocent women to take place"

Are you serious? Are you actually trying to use the 'problem of evil' argument here? What God allows is up to him and his purposes, and is nobody else's business. God is under no duty to intervene in stopping evil. He has already explained that he will wipe every tear from every eye, and there shall be no more tears or death. We are in no position to second guess him on anything.

"to take place for however long, and then immediately (and without comment, while at the same time expressing His anger with mankind) slammed the chains on them, leaving the results of their actions to further the destruction of mankind, AND on top of it, left others to perpetuate the same behavior later!?!"

I don't at all see the immediacy you speak of here. This appears to me to be a very long time wherein all of man's seed is corrupted by this evil angelic invasion. Also, God dealt with "the angels that sinned". I find nothing strange with the idea that there might have been others that remained who did not sin in that way, but were capable of doing so at a later time.

God is merciful to even his enemies:

"31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them. 33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked."

Luke 8
King James Bible

greenbear 06-04-2009 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 21184)
Friends, I just wanted to repost the link to the article on the SONS OF GOD, as the original link which I put up in post no. 25 does not work, here you go:

Sons Of God... Sethites Or Fallen Angels?
"The following article is only a portion of a Biblical study on Demonology: The Doctrine of Fallen Angels- Dr. A.G. Fruchtenbaum. Dr. Fruchtenbaum is a Messianic Jewish believer and founder of ariel.org in San Antonio Texas. He comes from a family line of Levite Priest (father and grandfather) and has knowledge of scripture that is just uncanny, nonetheless having become a believer in Christ at a young age, his father threw him out of the house for converting from Judaism to Christianity at the age of 17 or 18..."
http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/fo...er&f=23&t=1327

Oh, Bro. Parrish thanks for posting this link. I've read Footsteps of The Messiah several times years ago. I don't agree with everything but he is brilliant. I can't wait to read this one!

Greektim 06-04-2009 09:38 PM

He is quite the Hebrew scholar, no doubt about that.

His book Israelology: the Missing Link in Systematic Theology is his landmark text. It burries all forms of covenantalism (Premill, Postmill, & Amill).

greenbear 06-04-2009 10:13 PM

I always meant to read that. Add another book to my list. I need a maid.

CKG 06-04-2009 10:38 PM

Quote:

=greenbear;

Quote:

God says Eve transgressed because she was deceived.
Eve was deceived, but God in his word says she made a choice

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Quote:

Adam and Eve didn't have a sin nature when they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eve was deceived and Adam decided to follow his wife. God said they would die in the day they eatest thereof. Clearly, something happened immediatley after they disobeyed God's only commandment for them. God wasn't just speaking of the physical death of the body but also spiritual death.
That is my point. Adam and Eve didn't have a sin nature when they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but it was sin for them to eat it. What caused them to sin? Yes, the serpent laid out the temptation, but Eve had a choice. Eve saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise and she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat. She made a choice. She chose the lust of her flesh, and the lust of her eyes, and the pride of life over God’s revealed will. She then gave unto Adam and he did eat. They sinned and now had a guilty conscience. Did their spirit die? The Bible doesn’t say so. You would think the Bible would mention something like that. If the Bible mentions God’s Spirit coming upon and departing from Saul (1 Samuel 10:10 and 1 Samuel 16:14) you’d think it would mention something as monumental as Adam and Eve’s spirit dying. Look up the word spirit in the OT and you will see that men had a spirit and this is before the new birth.

Quote:

There is such a thing as a sin nature passed down to adam's descendants.
Not in the KJV.

Quote:

Mankind has no power to keep from sinning. If we only had to deal with the same circumstances that Adam did perhaps we would make the decision to obey God? We're not in the same situation that Adam was in. God says we are helpless to cease sinning

It seems to me that the idea that sin is in the flesh, flesh being defined as purely physical , is not of christian origin. I think there is some connection to the manichaean view that sin is of the physical realm. When Adam sinned he died spiritually. Sin is a spiritual, not a physical, thing. This idea that there is no sin nature seems dangerous to me.

You’re talking philosophy and theology and not the Bible. Adam and Eve deliberately sinned against the clear will of God. They now had a guilty conscience before God. God had every right to strike them down, but instead he showed mercy and took the life of the innocent animal. But sin brings consequences. One of them being they were removed from the Garden of Eden and their fellowship with God severed. They no longer had access to the tree of life so they were now subject to death. They wanted their way and to follow the flesh so God let them have their way. With no access to the tree of life they eventually died. We all come into this world “outside the garden” without hope and without God with bodies subject to death. The wages of sin is death. As you said “Adam's offense put the curse of death upon all of his descendants”. We come into this world with these fleshly bodies; in a world ruled by Satan; a world that poses every kind of temptation imaginable and none of us are able to resist. All have sinned, not because of some “sin nature” which is a man-made theological term, but because we choose to sin. We choose the lust of the flesh. You say “this idea that there is no sin nature seems dangerous to me”. The idea of a sin nature comes from Calvinism. They say when Adam and Eve sinned they died spiritually and got a sin nature and that we are born spiritually dead with a sin nature. They say because we are spiritually dead and have a sin nature we don’t even have the ability to believe the gospel and that God has to regenerate us; cause us to be born again and then we can believe. That my friend is dangerous and unscriptural.

Romans 6:12-13 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Romans 7
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

2 Corinthians 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Quote:

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
These thirteen words prove there is a sin nature.
-If the Bible says we were "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin," then it has to be so.
And the above text would teach that men are born sinners if it were meant to be taken literally. But the language of this text is not literal, it is figurative. Both context and reality demand a figurative interpretation of this text.
For example, let's compare Psalm 51:5 with Job 1:21, which says: "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither." If Psalm 51:5 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that David and all other men are born sinners, then Job 1:21 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that Job and all other men will some day go back into their mother's womb.
Neither Psalm 51:5 nor Job 1:21 is to be understood literally. They are both figurative expressions. Both context and our knowledge of reality demand a figurative interpretation of these two texts.
David uses figurative language throughout his Psalms. In fact, in the 51st Psalm, verses five, seven, and eight are all figurative expressions. So if verse five can be made to teach that men are born sinners, then verse seven can be made to teach that hyssop cleanses us from sin when it says, "Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean." Also, verse eight can be made to teach the doctrine that God breaks the Christian's bones when he sins, and that his broken bones rejoice when he is forgiven "Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice." Another of David's Psalms, Psalm 58:3, can be made to teach the astonishing doctrine that babies speak from the very moment they are born: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."
But who would seriously teach from this last text that babies actually do speak as soon as they are born? None of these passages is meant to be understood in a literal sense. They are all figurative expressions. If they were understood literally, they would all teach what we know to be contrary to reality; for reality teaches us that bones don't rejoice, hyssop doesn't purge sin, babies don't speak as soon as they leave the womb, and an unborn child is not morally depraved.
The same rules of interpretation that would permit Psalm 51:5 to teach that babies are born sinners, would, if applied to these passages (or if applied to many other passages in the Bible), allow for every kind of perversion and wild interpretation of God's Word. Look again at the words of Job 1:21: "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither." Did Job, by these words, mean to teach that he and all other men would some day go back into their mother's womb? We know that such a meaning is absurd. But it is just as reasonable to give to Job 1:21 the nonsensical meaning that Job and all other men will some day go back into their mother's womb, as it is to give to Psalm 51:5 the nonsensical meaning that David and all other men are born sinners. David was not teaching in this passage that he was born a sinner. He instead was confessing to God the awful guilt and sinfulness of his heart, and he cried out to God in strong language the language of figure and symbol to express that awful guilt and sinfulness.
But if David intended to affirm that he was literally "shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin," then he affirmed absolute nonsense, and he charged his Creator with making him a sinner; for David knew that God was his Maker:
Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73
Know ye that the Lord he is God: It is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves. Psalm 100:3
Are we to understand from these passages that God fashions men into sinners in their mother's womb? No, we know that God does not create sinners. Yet, upon the supposition that Psalm 51:5 teaches that men are born sinners, these texts could teach nothing else. Who cannot see that the doctrine that men are born sinners charges God with creating sinners? It represents man as being formed a sinner in his mother's womb, when the Bible clearly teaches that God forms man in his mother's womb. It represents man as coming into this world a sinner, when the Bible clearly teaches that God creates all men. It may be objected that God created only Adam and Eve, and that the rest of mankind descended from them by natural generation. But this objection does not relieve the doctrine of an inherited sin nature of its slander and libel of the character of God. For if man has a sinful nature at birth, who is it who established the laws of procreation under which he would be born with that nature? God, of course. There is no escaping the logical inference that is implicit in the doctrine of an inherited sin nature. It is a blasphemous and slanderous libel on the character of God.
But one might as well reject the Bible out of hand, if he does not want to recognize that God is the Creator of all men. For the fact that God is the Creator of all men is one of the clearest truths taught in the Bible.
Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73
Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee: for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13, 14
Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb? Job 31:15
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee. Jer. 1:5
Have we not all one father? Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2:10
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth. Eccl. 12:1
Know ye that the Lord he is God; it is he that hath made us and not we ourselves. Psalm 100:3
I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth...for it repenteth me that I have made them. Gen. 6:7
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...So God created man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen. 1:26,27
Ye are gods; and all of you are the children of the most High. Psalm 82:6
For in the image of God made he man. Gen. 9:6
Man is the image and glory of God. I Cor. 11:7
Men are made after the similitude of God. James 3:9
The Lord formeth the spirit of man within him. Zech. 12:1
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. Job 33:4
He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. Acts 17:25
We are the offspring of God. Acts 17:29
I am the root and the offspring of David. Rev. 22:16
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Eccl. 7:29
This last text not only declares that God has created man, but it also affirms that God created man upright. If man is created upright, he cannot be born a sinner; and if he is born a sinner, he cannot be created upright. Either one or the other may be true, but they cannot both be true for the two are contradictories.
But when God says he "created us in his image, and gave us life and breath and all things," are we to understand that he created us as sinners? When he says, "We are his offspring," are we to understand that his offspring are born sinners? When Jesus said, "I am the root and the offspring of David," are we to understand that David sprang forth from the root Christ Jesus with a sinful nature? Or, are we to understand that Jesus, as the offspring of David, was born with a sinful nature? The very fact that Jesus was a man, descended from Adam, and born with a human nature as we are, shows that men are not born with a sinful nature. I John 4:3, II John 7, Heb. 2:14, Heb. 2:16-18, Heb. 4:15, Rom. 1:3, Matt. 1:1, Luke 3:38.

greenbear 06-04-2009 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 21166)
No where have I ever seen a reptile recorded in a description of a Cherubim either. but why are you thinking that a cherub is a reptile? because of the serpent and dragon of the Bible.

is a cherub and Cherubim the same?

sounds like a far fetch guess that Lucifer was a reptilian order. if the four cherubim around the throne all have the same description applied to them it would follow that the one that covereth would be of the same class not different.

Chette,

Maybe they changed when Satan fell. I read something a while ago about this. Something about watchers over different animal kinds. I don't even remember if I was swayed by it. I'll try to remember where I read it or search the scriptures. It may be a while.

greenbear 06-04-2009 11:37 PM

CKG- I'll get back to you in a few days. :)

CKG 06-05-2009 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 21655)
CKG- I'll get back to you in a few days. :)

No problem. I don't want to come across as argumentative. Like most on this forum I'm a believer who wants to know the truth of God's word. There are areas that God has opened my eyes to (such as the Bible version issue), but when I read what others have posted on the various threads I realize what a long way I have to go. I can get in the flesh like anyone else so I have to remind myself when I post that my point is not to win the argument or debate, but to learn what the Bible says and teaches.

Bro. Parrish 06-05-2009 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenbear (Post 21643)
Oh, Bro. Parrish thanks for posting this link. I've read Footsteps of The Messiah several times years ago. I don't agree with everything but he is brilliant. I can't wait to read this one!

Yes, please keep in mind sister, I don't agree with all of his material either. As I mentioned before, I linked that as a follow up to the suggestion that this topic was a "Jewish fable." What better man to answer that than a Jew named Fruchtenbaum... :)

CKG 06-05-2009 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevinvw (Post 21181)
The Bible says we were dead and had to be made alive, and that we by nature fulfilled the lust of the flesh and were the children of wrath.

We are said to be dead in the trespasses and sins, and Peter tells us that it is the Holy Spirit that quickens us. The Holy Spirit gives us the new birth that quickens our spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus had both births simultaneously. He was born of water (physically) and of blood (God's blood, spiritually). He never walked after the flesh because He had the power of God, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have. Just like we can walk after the lusts of the flesh even though we have been born of the Spirit and have been covered in God's blood, but through the Spirit of God we can overcome our flesh, the same as Jesus did and we are told that Jesus will help us do it.

Not everything is spelled out letter for letter or word for word.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Most people read this verse to say “And you hath he quickened, who were born spiritually dead”. This verse says nothing about our birth state. As a matter of fact our being dead is attributed to our trespasses and sins.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Notice we walked according to the world, the prince of the power of the air and the lusts of our flesh (our 3 enemies – the world, flesh and the devil). It is because we walked according to the world, the prince of the power of the air and the lusts of our flesh that we were by nature children of wrath. That is not a statement about a “sin nature”. When it says by nature it means the natural outcome or result of walking according to the world, the prince of the power of the air and the lusts of our flesh is we are children of wrath.

Paul said “For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” (Romans 7:9)

There was a point in Paul’s life when he became aware of his sinfulness and he says he died. God only holds us accountable for what we know. Babies, children to a certain age and severely mentally handicapped people have no knowledge of good and evil. They are not held accountable. If they die before the age of accountability they go to be with the Lord. When the children of Israel refused to enter the land God said those 20 years old and upward would perish

Numbers 14:29-31 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward which have murmured against me. Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

Why would those under 20 not perish?

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

I don’t know what the age of accountability is and it probably varies with individuals, but when a person reaches the age of knowing good and evil they are now accountable for their sins.

Sin is something we do.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

When we have knowingly sinned (after reaching the age of accountability) we are now dead in trespasses and sins. We have the death sentence on us. We are then children of wrath, because unless a person gets saved they will perish; experience the second death. At the Great White Throne judgment people will be judged for what they should've done, but didn't and what they did, but shouldn't have.


Jesus said we had to be born again. If we were spiritually dead like you say he would’ve said we need a resurrection, not a birth. His point was we’ve all been born of the flesh, but to enter into the kingdom of God we need to be born of the Spirit. Peter said we were quickened by the Spirit. We now have the life of God in us.

There is a raising from the dead, but it’s after the death we died with Christ.

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

CKG 06-05-2009 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbiwolski (Post 21613)
Oh, that isn't all...

Unless I missed it, no one has yet referenced Daniel 2 in connection to the words of Christ mentioned aboved and Gen. 6.
Dan. 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
There are the days of Noe in the future during the tribulation. And the wickedness condoned and encouraged by the presence of the Devil Incarnate is only comparable to the result of the sons of God cohabitting with the daughters of men. That wickedness that followed invited the judgment of God (flood) just as will the future.

I’m not sure there is a relationship between Genesis 6 and Daniel 2:43. Whether you believe, accept, or comprehend Genesis 6, it is pretty clear in what it is saying.

Genesis 6
1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The Bible makes reference to 4 persons or person called the son of God or sons of God.

1. Jesus - Mark 1:1, John 20:31, Daniel 3:25
2. Adam - Luke 3:38
3. Believers - John 1:12, Romans 8:14, Philippians 2:15, 1 John 3:1, 1 John 3:2
4. Angels - Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7

It's safe to say you can eliminate the first three as having reference to Genesis 6. That leaves number 4. I personally do not believe the events of Genesis 6:2 will happen again.

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 6)

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; (2 Peter 2:4)

Daniel 2:43 is in a different context which is talking about coming kingdoms as Daniel interprets Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. The "they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men:" seems to suggest that this kingdom will be a mixture of people and ideaologies versus a predominant Babylonian or Greek empire.

A couple of cross references.

Ezra 9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.

Psalm 106:35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.


Daniel 2
1And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.
2Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.
3And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream.
4Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation.
5The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, The thing is gone from me: if ye will not make known unto me the dream, with the interpretation thereof, ye shall be cut in pieces, and your houses shall be made a dunghill.
6But if ye shew the dream, and the interpretation thereof, ye shall receive of me gifts and rewards and great honour: therefore shew me the dream, and the interpretation thereof.
7They answered again and said, Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation of it.
8The king answered and said, I know of certainty that ye would gain the time, because ye see the thing is gone from me.
9But if ye will not make known unto me the dream, there is but one decree for you: for ye have prepared lying and corrupt words to speak before me, till the time be changed: therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that ye can shew me the interpretation thereof.
10The Chaldeans answered before the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter: therefore there is no king, lord, nor ruler, that asked such things at any magician, or astrologer, or Chaldean.
11And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.
12For this cause the king was angry and very furious, and commanded to destroy all the wise men of Babylon.
13And the decree went forth that the wise men should be slain; and they sought Daniel and his fellows to be slain.
14Then Daniel answered with counsel and wisdom to Arioch the captain of the king's guard, which was gone forth to slay the wise men of Babylon:
15He answered and said to Arioch the king's captain, Why is the decree so hasty from the king? Then Arioch made the thing known to Daniel.
16Then Daniel went in, and desired of the king that he would give him time, and that he would shew the king the interpretation.
17Then Daniel went to his house, and made the thing known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions:
18That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.
19Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.
20Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
21And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
22He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.
23I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king's matter.
24Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise men of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise men of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation.
25Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation.
26The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?
27Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;
28But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
29As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
30But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
31Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
46Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.
47The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
48Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon.
49Then Daniel requested of the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, over the affairs of the province of Babylon: but Daniel sat in the gate of the king.

greenbear 06-05-2009 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 21627)
Response to GB's first comments:

Greenbear, based on your answers, particularly that there are fallen angels that did not participate in the Genesis 6 event, are you acknowledging that this is possibly an ongoing activity?

In reference to:
GB, think about what you are saying. These women had no power to prevent this assault (Genesis 6:2 "...they took them wives of all which they chose.") God, foreknowing the actions of that these evil ones would commit, allowed this assault on unprotected, innocent women to take place for however long, and then immediately (and without comment, while at the same time expressing His anger with mankind) slammed the chains on them, leaving the results of their actions to further the destruction of mankind, AND on top of it, left others to perpetuate the same behavior later!?! Verse 3 and 5 scream out the perpetrators of this crime, MAN!

Job*1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
Job*1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job*1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Ec*10:8 He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him.

Le*20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

Le*20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

De*12:29 When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;
De*12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
De*12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

Mal*3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

Quote:

GB, think about what you are saying. These women had no power to prevent this assault (Genesis 6:2 "...they took them wives of all which they chose.") God, foreknowing the actions of that these evil ones would commit, allowed this assault on unprotected, innocent women to take place for however long, and then immediately (and without comment, while at the same time expressing His anger with mankind) slammed the chains on them, leaving the results of their actions to further the destruction of mankind, AND on top of it, left others to perpetuate the same behavior later!?! Verse 3 and 5 scream out the perpetrators of this crime, MAN!
Women were the possessions of their fathers, then their husbands. Christianity has improved the lot of women although unbelievers would NEVER see it that way. A christian man could practically get himself assasinated for saying this but I'm a woman so I'll say it. Ga*3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Consider the nations that the Lord God commanded Israel to drive out of the land. The cup of God's wrath was full concerning them. Let's look at why God was so angry. They consulted familiar spirits Through their idol worship they worshiped devils. They caused their children to pass through the fire to Him. He was angry with the overwhelming evil of these nations. Of course, nephilim were alive and well at that time in the promised land. Sort of like in Gen 6, don't ya think?
God warned Israel not to do the things that those nations before them did.

God puts a hedge of protection around believers. He warns us not to partake in occultic practices because the hedge is broken and we are vulnerable to evil spiritual powers. In Gen 6, God was very angry at man. It seems apparent to me, at least, that man in Gen 6 was doing the same things the nations were doing that Israel drove out of the land. Ps*78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them. This verse does more than prove Jude and 2 Pet don't deal with Satan's rebellion. It also describes God sending evil angels to punish man's evil. Interesting.

I hope that clears up any misunderstanding you may have about what my arguments have been.


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