Don't tell me what it “means” just tell me what it “says”
 

Neh 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

How many times have you heard someone piously state that he cares not what a verse or word means but what it says? Practically every cult I know of is guilty of that philosophy. Lets look at some verses and see what they say and then lets figure out what they mean.

Pro 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him “betimes.”

For many years I thought “betimes” meant “many times.” It actually “means” to chasten him “early” or “promptly” and ties in with Proverbs 19:18 where it says “Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.” Any good reference Bible will give the correct “meaning.”

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

If we take this verse for what it “says” then Mormon practice appears to be legitimate. But what does it mean? Here is the context.

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

There were Corinthians who were teaching that no one (including Christ) ever rose from the dead, yet they still taught and practiced the ordinance of baptism. Since the whole point of baptism is that it signifies the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, the act of baptism would be an absurdity if Christ did not rise.

For those who believed that Christ did not rise from the dead, they truly were being "baptized for the dead" because they were being baptized for a dead savior, and not One Who rose from the dead.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We know that cultists use this verse to show that all who are not baptized are damned. Many hyperdispensationalists teach the same thing. However, this is a case of making the verse mean just the exact opposite of what it says! They conveniently leave out the little conjunction “but” which must be applied to the entire verse! Jesus says plainly that “he that believeth not shall be damned” while excluding the first part of the verse.

Another verse of similar construction is:

Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. Is it not clear that the flip side is if he puts away his wife for the cause of fornication and marries another, he has not committed adultery?

You can find this throughout the word of God and I find it troubling that some would recommend to a young Christian to disregard attempting to find the “meaning” of a verse and just take it for what it “says.” It is a double edged sword.

Thank you bro. premio 53 for the input. Sometimes, we Filipino lacked the understanding of your English. I have in my possesion a Bible which the KJV. I am reading it and sometimes I've crossed some difficult passages of the Bible so that practically I looked at the dictionary. While I believe, God gives us wisdom and some of the words in the KJV was already defined, I still need to understand what it really says thus it's meaning. In Nehemiah they did not just read the book of the law but they gave sense and caused them to understand the reading. What profit anyway if you just read and not understand. Profit wise, I thank the Lord that I found this Forum to learn more about God's Word. Thanks to God, thanks to His Word(KJV/AV) and thanks to this Forum(AV16111). I'm learning...:):):)

Re: " Don't tell me what it “means” just tell me what it “says”"
 

Aloha all,

After not posting for about a week premio53 returns with another absurd and perverse Post! :(

Real genuine Bible believers ALWAYS want to know what God's words SAY - because people (Cults Foremost) can MAKE THEM "MEAN" ANYTHING THEY WANT THEM TO "MEAN"! :mad:

I do not know WHO premio53 is, but he/she has the whole thing BACKWARDS! :eek: Everything that this person has said in his/her Thread: "Don't tell me what it “means” just tell me what it “says" is contrary to sound Bible teaching and instruction! :eek:
I for one, do NOT want to know WHAT premio53 (or anyone else for that matter) "THINKS" the Holy word of God "MEANS" to him/her! Who cares WHAT he/she "THINKS"? I want to know WHAT God has to SAY! I am sick and tired of man's "PRIVATE INTERPRETATION" of the Holy words of God! :mad:

This perverse Post is an indirect attack on everything I have been promoting on this Forum for nearly a year and a half. All of the CULTS employ premio53's methodology and end up - twisting, wresting, adding, subtracting, and ultimately CHANGING the Holy words of God to suit their own private agenda!

Premio53's whole premise is both ABSURD and totally WITHOUT any Scriptural foundation! Practically every Thread and Post this man/woman has posted has been fraught with False Doctrine and CONTROVERSY!

The Lord did NOT say; Search to find out what people "think" my words "MEAN"! He said to "Search the Scriptures" {John 5:39}
BEWARE! Premio53 is a "FALSE TEACHER" and a "TROUBLEMAKER". He/she has been involved in one "controversy" after another from the moment he/she showed up on this Forum.

This man/woman has nothing to offer in the way of "edification" or spiritual "profit". We don't need to know anything about this person, to know what to do with him/her - and his/her "FALSE DOCTRINE":

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

Wow.

Bro George, I think you way overreacted there. Of course, I think this started when premio58 gave support to some of my posts in another thread where you and I disagree.

But I agree with premio58 here. Not because it opposes you, but because I think he/she is right. And there is scripture to support this:

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Here is an example of Jesus explaining the scriptures to the disciples that they did not understand. The very definition of the word expounded here is;

1) to unfold the meaning of what is said, explain, expound
2) to translate into one's native language

Another example is found in Acts.

Acts 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

You see here, the Ethopian eunuch could clearly read these scriptures, but he did not understand them. Philip himself asked the man if he understood these scriptures, why would he do that if the meaning is not important? So Philip began at the same scripture and preached unto him Jesus.

And in support of Mark 16:16 which premio58 posted as an example, verses Acts 8:36-37 prove that the important factor in salvation is believeing, not baptism. You should only be baptized if you believe on Jesus with your heart. So baptism is not part of salvation. And these scriptures in Acts give more meaning and understanding to Mark 16:16

The point is, a person must understand the scriptures.

I do not appreciate the bullying that goes on around here lately. When you sincerely disagree with a few here, they accuse you of all sorts of things, being an unbeliever, not rightly dividing the word of truth, false teacher, heresy, on and on.

You know, there were folks that used this same tactic on Jesus, the prophets and apostles.

Luke 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Matt 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Calling people names like "false teacher" is very reminicient of the Pharisees, not Jesus.

I think this started when premio53 set out to decieve people, when he is really tandy1650 that was banned from these forums a while back.

let me quote from my post on the thread rightly dividing the book of acts


Lets address the underlined shall we?
Premio53 said "I have no idea who George is"

First of you are a member of the "FFF" Forums, so I am quite sure you know who Brother George is with the scorn he recieves from that place.

I will assume? that from your username Premio53 you are the same premio53 from FFF forums, and the same premio53 who goes by the name SOUTHERN BAPTIST
here http://www.topix.com/member/profile/premio53

Now, it seems that premio53 likes chess is that right?, just like Tandy1650 likes his chess? Striking similaritys here also with a snippet of testimony from Tandy1650 and premio53

Tandy1650

Premio53 (from the linked site above)


In addition here is another snipet that confirms they are the same person
from this link from http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/...A7Q1OOH3APT/p4 POST 75
Premio53

From these forums by Tandy1650 http://av1611.com/forums/showthread....+tracts&page=2 post17

Psalms 120:2 Deliver my soul, O LORD, from lying lips, and from a deceitful tongue.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Does this seem like a genuine person to you? It is quite right to admonish people like this and completely scriptural and correct in the site of the Lord.
I am grateful for a learned Brother like George who as well as being an acomplished Bible teacher has great discernment on these matters, I have seen scripture that was hazy to me blown free of cobwebs and dust by Georges posts, Gods spirit has revealed "truth" to me through these posts, for I seek nothing else only truth no matter how much it may hurt to hear it or accept it. On top of all that I can testify personally on George and his Brethrens kindness and Christian love and I know by the Holy Spirit of God who lives and abides in me that he is my Brother.
Some need to start seeing scripture how it is not how they think it is and allow the Spirit of truth to show them the way.

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

If you cant seperate between good and evil then you most certainly cannot understand the deep things of God.


1 Corinthians 2:9-13
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

I'm not here to take sides (...not yet anyways, I haven't thoroughly investigated the heated discussions at hand yet to even know who I agree or disagree with). But I've noticed that some people on these boards, who I respect for their stand for the KJB, are very upset with Premio53. Part of the hostility is due to the opinion that Premio53 should give a detailed introduction of himself concerning who he is and some info so as to ascertain what his basic theological premises are. Now I am not going to debate whether such a request is a good rule or not for a public Internet forum. I'll leave that to the discretion of Diligent since he is the forum administrator and can therefore run this show however he likes. After all, he's the one payin for the place.

But as to Premio53, I happen to know him a little. Premio53 might not like what I'm going to do but I'm going to do it anyways in his defence. If he is the same guy I am thinking of, Premio53 comes from the same church that I am a member of (and have been a member of for over 20 years/I am a Missionary sent out from this church). He is not a member here anymore but my understanding is that he left on good terms to pursue the ministry and do the work of the Lord. He graduated from the same Bible school that I did, which is a local church ministry that is operated under my Pastor, a very able Bible teacher. This would mean that we are somewhat of the same circle. Unless things have changed, this means that what I know about Premio53 is that he is a true King James Bible-believer, who holds the KJB as the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. This also means that he received his theological training in a KJV Bible-believing, non-Calvinistic, hell fire and brimstone preaching, separated, pre-millineal, mission-minded, soul-winning, old-fashioned, fundamental, independent, Baptist church. Amongst those that know him personally, Premio53 is known to be a very zealous and diligent student of God's Word. He has the testimony of being one our Bible Institute's best students. He has the testimony of being a true soul winner and soldier of the Lord and an earnest contender of the faith.

When I used to post at FFF, Premio53 was one of the good guys. I am surprised to see him being regarded as one of the "bad guys" over here. I didn't see that coming. Nevertheless, I'm glad to see Premio53 on these boards.

I'm sure whatever personal problems that my other friends on these boards are having with Premio53 can be worked out between the two without a plea for Premio53's banishment. I would encourage such.

God bless the brethren!

(Now back to killin each other. :D)

Manny I appreciate those kind words. I do have some strong opinions concerning doctrine as everyone on this board. I realize that a strong non-Ruckman view (not meant in a bad way) of dispensationalism especially on this board will cause conflict. I will say good by to this board with no malice toward anyone. George, if I have personally offended you I apologize. This is my last post. May God bless.

I do think Peopleoftheway provided good evidence that Tandy1650 and premio58 could be the same person. Those posts are amazingly similar.

That said, I still do not appreciate the bullying that goes on. I have been on this forum just over 6 months. I have no idea who Tandy1650 is (or premio58) or why they were banned. I don't really care either. Everything was fine for me on this forum at first. Yes, I disagreed with Chette on the Gap Theory awhile back (and I still disagree). But when I disagreed with Bro George everything started to become uncomfortable. I have a lot of respect for Bro George, he comes across to me a very serious student of the Bible who truly loves the Lord. But I do not think him infallible, as I know I am not infallible. But since disagreeing with Bro George I have been accused of not rightly dividing the word of truth, making my own private interpretations of God's Word, and changing God's Word. I think the truth is I upset the apple cart. I presented many scriptures that argued against Bro George's interpretation of the book of Acts. And the scriptures I presented were sound.

Even the apostles disagreed on the scriptures. Paul said he withstood Peter to his face.

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

Now, I seriously doubt Paul accused Peter of changing the Word of God, or being a false teacher. In fact, we know what Paul said:

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Now, I can handle disagreement, I don't have to make all these accusations about a person. Some here want to know my personal life. Ridiculous. I have never asked anyone about their personal life and never intend to. I am a sinner saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, I do not go around judging myself superior to others. It was insinuated I was a regular over at FFF. I had never heard of FFF until I came here. I did try to sign up over there to answer a question posed to me over there by FSSL, but it will not allow me to post. And that's fine, I really don't want to associate with those who do not believe the King James Bible is God's Word.

I did not know that premio58 is Tandy1650, although it does appear very likely. But I agreed with this post, not to be contrary to Bro George or anyone else here. I did not come to this forum to argue and fight with anyone, I actually came here to fellowship with like believers in the Word of God. I don't expect all of us to agree 100% of the time, and I think that is good. It is good when we study the scriptures to see if a doctine is sound or not, it is a great learning experience really. So healthy debate is good. But when people attack you because you disagree with them, that is not Christian behaviour in my opinion.

You know, maybe I should leave this forum as well. I have never been one to cower from a bully. I can handle bullies and have many times. But I am getting too old to put up with nonsense like this. I am going to have to think on this awhile.

I have to agree with you Winman.
I'm sorry to say I am quickly losing respect for the patterns of some of the regulars here. It's getting a little silly with the demands for personal information and so forth, if anyone knows of other good KJV boards please let me know as I am growing weary of the lack of moderation here, and I wouldn't mind looking at other boards to see how they are run. The bashing is getting too common and it's getting more and more trivial. Nothing against anyone personally, just getting concerned over the way things are going here, it's too bad really. :(

Re: "Don't tell me what it “means” just tell me what it “says”"
 

Aloha brother Manny and brother Parrish, and Winman,

Please read what premio53 wrote in this Thread. Do you agree with his premise? :confused:Premio53 was taking a direct swipe at what I have said (over and over) on this Forum. It was a clever and subtle swipe, but it was still from direct quotes that I have said on this Forum many times.

I really don't care WHO he is; or WHAT school he went to; or HOW good a student he was. What I want to know - is what he posted in his thread "Biblical Truth"? :confused:

Do we NEED a man (or men) in order to UNDERSTAND God's word? A simple YES or NO will do?

According to the Holy Bible - these 'WORDS" of Scripture are true, and so while it is nice, and convenient to have Bible teachers - it is NOT necessary.

And in these days of Apostasy a Christian is far better off NOT relying on men for "spiritual understanding", since there are so many "apostates" out there in the churches.

It's quite simple really - premio53's premise is either "True" or it is "False". Running to a few verses that do NOT address the issue directly does NOT "prove" his "private interpretation" of the clear Biblical teaching in this matter.

According to the Apostle John - we have "an unction from the Holy one"; and we "need NOT that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

According to premio53 (and brother Winman) we NEED someone to TEACH (or "EXPLAIN") the Scriptures to us, in order for us to UNDERSTAND them. According to the "words" of the Apostle John we DON'T NEED any man to teach us! :( Now WHO do you suppose I am going to believe "premio53" (WHO I don't even know) or brother Winman (WHO I also don't know either), or the Apostle John? It's NO CONTEST! :tsk:

And what about the Apostle Paul's testimony in 1Corinthians Chapter 2:1-16?

{Again - WHO is the WE? Are they just Bible school graduates? According to the Apostle Paul, WE have the mind of Christ, and it is the Lord that INSTRUCTS us - NOT MEN!}

If I am wrong about premio53's "premise" on this Thread - WHAT do you do about these verses that DIRECTLY ADDRESS this issue? According to the Apostle John - I have an "UNCTION from the Holy One" and I "need NOT that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."According to the Apostle Paul - I have the mind of Christ, and I am to look to the Holy Spirit for instruction and understanding - NOT men!)

Now, am I promoting some CULT PHILOSOPHY as premio53 has intimated? "Practically every cult I know of is guilty of that philosophy." If I teach that knowing WHAT God SAYS (His very own "words") is far more important than than knowing what some men "THINK" His Holy words "MEAN" - does that make me some kind of "cult" leader? Hmmm?


And brother Parrish and Winman, - HOW do you "propose" we should treat every "kook", "crackpot", and "crazy" that shows up on this Board? Hmmm? Do we extend the right hand of fellowship to every "stranger" that shows up on the AV1611 Bible Forums regardless of the fact that we know nothing about them? Do we just ASSUME that they are "brethren"?

And when they INSULT or CRITICIZE a known brother in Christ, do we just give them "A PASS"? Is it "TRIVIAL" when prmio53 "intimates" that WHAT I am teaching is much the same as a "CULT PHILOSOPHY" ? (premio53 said: "How many times have you heard someone piously state that he cares not what a verse or word means but what it says? Practically every cult I know of is guilty of that philosophy." WHO do you "think" premio53 was talking about? Hmmm?) Do you just "OVERLOOK" the "SUBTIL SUGGESTION" that WHAT I teach is "FALSE" and that I am GUILTY of the SAME PHILOSOPHY of "practically every "CULT"? Do you consider that "TRIVIAL"? Or did you MISS that "accusation"? Hmmm?

In the last few weeks we have had an OVERLOAD of TROUBLEMAKERS join this Forum - just how long do you "propose" we let them "disrupt" this Forum? Are we to tolerate "division", "chaos" and "ANARCHY"? And where would the "edification" be in that?

Do you think that it is proper etiquette or common courtesy for a STRANGER to come to this Forum and INSULT and CRITICIZE brother Chette, and then INTIMATE that WHAT I TEACH is NO DIFFERENT than "every cult philosophy"? If that is "TRIVIAL" - just exactly WHERE would you draw the line?

Premio53 (a STRANGER) has caused controversy, dissension, discord, and division - and it's my fault? I didn't INVITE him here. We have NO IDEA WHO HE IS or WHAT he believes (other than the fact that he holds a lot of personal opinions and privately interprets the Scriptures).

If STRANGERS are allowed to CRITICIZE, INSULT, and "CHALLENGE" any established member, or anything that an established member Posts there will be NO EDIFICATION taking place and NO PROFIT to the Forum itself.

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

2 Timothy 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Fred,

I have found that the Bible companion from Chick tracts is good to place in your KJV when reading it will help you to understand the English words better than Premio53 can explain. A good Webster's or Cambridge dictionary is good especially older one or unabridged ones.

If your ever in Palawan please visit with me.

Thanks for your hospitality. That's a good trait known for us Filipinos. God bless you sir...

BroParish,

Your welcome to find or start another forum if you like. but when dealing with individuals over doctrine and issues that are Biblically clear, or about methods of Studying the Bible you will begin to see a pattern arise that begins to fit a person into certain categories 1) They are in disobedience to Gods word, 2) They are heretics, 3) They are a babe in Christ,or 4) they are unsaved. This can be analyzed merely by what they say, and how they react to certain issues, doctrines, applications and how people speak to them and how they speak back in the post.

When it gets to where people start to fit in any of those or other categories. it is good to know a little about the person, a testimony, what group or denomination they belong to or were trained in, are they in full-time service to the Lord or a layperson. this helps in how we will proceed with answering a person or ministering to them as we are all ministers one to another.

Also if a person is genuinely unsaved (even if they don't know it) signs of not hearing the Lord, not understanding the clear word, twisting scripture are often a good indication that person does not have the Holy Ghost indwelling. this is where a testimony come in to see if they have truly believed correctly and in the correct gospel.

It is not silly to then ask a little bit about a person. A Christian does not need to hide online as 99% of the people online do. we don't have to lie online, we don't have to use other peoples sites to promote ourselves as the unsaved do, and we should never be afraid to be who we are in Christ. unless you are a Kook or a crackpot or you are a liar and a trouble maker you should have no reason to not share a little about your self.

I not only give testimony, but my real name is used in my online name, I link to my web page so you can know more about me. being genuine is a good thing and an honest person has nothing to hide. I visited AV1611 a few times and even had asked Brandon for a active copy of Sword Searcher before I had ever joined the AV1611 forum. I found I liked what was being shared and the people here were likeminided one of the traits Jesus wants for us. so you see I am not afraid to share a little about myself. my questions is why would a Christian not want to share about his testimony? Or let those whom he is enteracting with to know a little more about himself?

knowing a persons sex or age helps a little. we are not asking for bank acct balances or credit ratings, how much they get paid or anything like that. just a little bit of background. and why not if we are going to minister to one another we should be willing to get to know each other and that is a two way street.

The worst someone can do is post a reply. Without the force of moderation I don't see how anyone can bully someone else here. All they can do is what you can do -- post what is on their mind. They can not make you reply and they can not silence you.

You do not have to respond to anything you don't want to. You are not expected or required to provide personal details and information if you don't want to. There is only one forum moderator here: me. I do not require people to post details about themselves. But just as you don't have to, others are free to ask for those details and question why someone doesn't want to provide them.

That being said, I think it's ridiculous to imply uncertainly about salvation based on how much (if any) personal information someone is willing to provide on a public internet forum. It is equally absurd to imply uncertainty over someone's salvation because they don't divide the book of Acts the way someone else does. This is a digital place; the rules of engagement are not the same here as they would be in a "real life" setting like a church.

And the complaints about moderation on this forum come from all sides. A few days ago someone called me on the phone (yes, really) and complained that Bibleprotector is "running the forum." Someone else went off in a huff because Bro. Parrish is running the forum. And others complain that George is "the forum." The common theme here is that some people complain about forum moderation when they don't get what they want and the person "running the forum" is the person they are in a tizzy over.

I'm not some babysitter. I have my limits on what I will allow and I do ban when I think it is warranted, but I generally don't want to get in the way of adults talking with each other. There are lots of forums on the net. You might be able to find one that is moderated exactly the way you like -- and if not, you could always start one yourself.

Hi, Chette777,

I use Chick tracts regularly. Also, they come in many different languages,
and they're only 15 cents each.

I'm glad to see that.

Re: "Don't tell me what it “means” just tell me what it “says”"
 

Brother Winman,

Your comments above illustrate an appalling lack of spiritual understanding where the Holy Scriptures are concerned. My comments in regards to your separate observations shall clearly illustrate this fact:

Winman’s comments:
First off - IF you knew how to rightly divide the word of truth, you wouldn't be using these Scriptural examples to try to PROVE your point!

The FIRST QUESTION you should have asked is: WHO IS SPEAKING? The SECOND QUESTION should have been: WHO IS HE SPEAKING TO? And the THIRD QUESTION you should have asked is: WHEN did he SAY what He SAID?

IF you had asked those THREE QUESTIONS you would have saved yourself a whole lot of embarrassment. :embarassed:

Firstly - The Lord Jesus Christ (The nation of Israel's Messiah & King) is speaking {BEFORE His ASCENSION - i.e. BEFORE the Disciples were FILLED with the Holy Spirit.}

Secondly - The Lord Jesus Christ is speaking to some of His Jewish Disciples - that is His Jewish Disciples that are NOT "born again" - YET; and within WHOM the Holy Spirit is NOT INDWELLING - YET!

Thirdly - These Disciples DO NOT have the Holy Spirit living IN them YET! You see, when you study the Holy Scriptures, you CANNOT IGNORE the "HISTORICAL CONTEXT" (like you so often do) without misinterpreting the Holy words of God! At this point in time – the Lord’s Disciples were NOT like those of us who are born again today! {We have the Holy Spirit living IN us - they DID NOT! We do NOT “NEED” that “any man teach us” – they DID!}

So then, in the "HISTORICAL CONTEXT", we have a group of Jews, WHO had been following the Lord Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry (i.e. Christ's Disciples) WHO (by their own testimony) had NO "spiritual understanding" of the events that just had unfolded, i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; and WHO, since they did NOT have the Holy Spirit living IN them, NEEDED SOMEONE to EXPLAIN to them WHAT HAPPENED?

Those of us WHO are born again are NOTHING like those Disciples (at least we shouldn't be!). We have the Holy Spirit living WITHIN US! We have the perfect, Holy, and infallible word of God (i.e. the King James Bible). We do NOT NEED that ANY MAN TEACH US! [1John 2:27]

Now of course it's all good and fine that there are Bible "teachers" out there; and we CAN learn some "things" about the Bible from them, BUT the "FACT" is, according to the Scriptures, WE DON'T "NEED" them - NOT like the Lord's Disciples (in the “Historical context”) NEEDED SOMEONE to help them UNDERSTAND what was going on. {Your first “scriptural example” is DISPROVEN and clearly demonstrated to be TAKEN OUT OF “CONTEXT”!}

Winman’s comments (continued):
Now this “Scriptural EXAMPLE” is WORSE than your previous one! “You see here” – The ETHIOPIAN EUNOCH WAS LOST! (duh? :confused:) Of course he NEEDED SOMEONE to help him understand what he was reading – after all he was LOST! the Holy Spirit was NOT living IN him!). And since Philip was FULL of the Holy Ghost – he was just the man to “help” him.

Now, “how in the world”, does this “Scriptural EXAMPLE” APPLY to those of US who are born again and WHO have the Holy Spirit living IN US? Hmmm? :confused: Can’t you see? You USE some Scriptures to PROVE your point - BUT they are OUT OF CONTEXT! In other words you MISUSE the Scriptures to PROVE A PRIVATE INTERPRETATION! And when this is pointed out to you, instead of receiving instruction, you PERSIST in your ERROR! And worse yet, you start pointing fingers and ACCUSE some of us as using the “same tactics” AS THE SCRIBES and PHARISEES of old. {Your second scriptural “example” is DISPROVEN and clearly demonstrated to be TAKEN OUT OF “CONTEXT”!}

Winman’s comments (continued):
“The point is”? Of course “a person must understand the Scriptures”. That’s a “given”. WHAT does this have to do with the issue at hand? Acts 8:36-37 do NOT “give more meaning and understanding to Mark 16:16”; that is IF you BELIEVE the Scriptures WHERE they are written and DON’T TWIST them to try to PROVE your point!

How about QUOTING Mark 16:16 in “CONTEXT”?
You conveniently FORGOT SOMETHING (it’s called “THE CONTEXT”) didn’t you (and premio53)? :confused: What happened to the “SIGNS” that the Lord Jesus Christ said “SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE”? :confused: WHERE are the “SIGNS”? :confused: WHO today has the genuine “POWER” TO CAST OUT DEVILS”? Hmmm? :confused: WHO today has the genuine “GIFT OF TONGUES”? Hmmm? :confused: WHO today takes up SERPENTS or DRINKS ANY DEADLY THING WITHOUT ANY HARM? Hmmm? :confused: And WHO today has the genuine GIFT OF HEALING – WHERE IF THE “LAY HANDS” ON THE SICK THEY RECOVER (EVERY SINGLE TIME)? :confused:

You (and premio53) LEFT OUT a whole lot of Scripture – DIDN’T YOU? Now that’s NOT very HONEST and that’s NOT very FORTHRIGHT of you (or premio53) IS IT? :tsk: That is WHY (along with some of his previous comments) I called premio53 a "FALSE TEACHER", because that is what he IS! And if calling someone a FALSE TEACHER makes me a Pharisee - then WHAT does that make the Lord Jesus Christ when He called the scribes and the Pharisees (the FALSE TEACHERS of His day) “HYPOCRITES”; or “FOOLS; or “BLIND GUIDES”; or “VIPERS”; or “SERPENTS"? Hmmm? :confused: :(

Winman’s comments (continued):
You couldn’t “PROVE” what you just said from the Scriptures - NOT if your life depended on it! Once again your “private opinion” DOES NOT “LINE UP” with the Holy “words” of God:

The Lord Jesus Christ NEVER got into "calling people NAMES"? Are you serious? Have I ever called you a “HYPOCRITE”; or a “FOOL; or a “BLIND GUIDE”; or a “VIPER”; or a “SERPENT”? Hmmm? :confused: Have I ever said that you are “BLIND” or have I ever intimated that you are “FULL OF HYPOCRISY and INIQUITY”? :confused: That’s what the Lord called the scribes and the Pharisees. He didn’t “MINCE” His words when it came to “FALSE TEACHERS”! :mad:

Now when you equate what I am doing (or saying) here on this forum as being the “same” as what the Pharisees did to “Jesus, the prophets and apostles” –

You did say: You are accusing me of using the same tactics as the scribes and the Pharisees did – so are you ACCUSING me of being a Pharisee? And if you are – WHY don’t you just come out and say it, instead of beating around the bush?

Winman’s comments (continued):
“The point is” - a born again child of God does NOT “NEED” some man to give him discernment or understanding! “The point is” that – UNLIKE the Disciples and the Ethiopian Eunuch (neither of whom possessed the Holy Spirit - YET) a born again child of God DOES have the Holy Spirit living IN him, and does NOT “NEED” that “ANY MAN TEACH” HIM.

So anyone who teaches that a Christian (a true born again child of God) “NEEDS” SOMEONE TO “TEACH” them so they can UNDERSTAND the Scriptures is teaching “FALSE DOCTRINE” – which makes them “FALSE TEACHERS”!

Ultimately, for the saved child of God, ALL spiritual “discernment”, “understanding”, and “wisdom” MUST come from God – NOT MEN (or Schools)! [1Corinthians 2:1-16] and to teach OTHERWISE is to teach CONTRARY to what the Scriptures “SAY” – never mind what you or premio53 “THINK” they may “MEAN”.

I have dealt with your “comments” (with Scripture – in “CONTEXT”) and have demonstrated that you not only have limited spiritual discernment and understanding, but you have displayed very little spiritual wisdom in continually opposing what I have posted lately.

I have demonstrated, on several occasions, that you will make CLAIMS and then FAIL to back them up - just like your Post # 13 (On the Thread > “Dispensationalism”) where you “CLAIMED” that brother Ruckman agreed with you, and where I clearly demonstrated (in my Post #35 - at least four times) that you were in ERROR and that you were “reading into” what brother Peter Ruckman “SAID”, what you believed he “MEANT” {Which Post you have totally IGNORED, and have yet to reply to}.

And again, just like when you said in your Post #37 (Thread > “Dispensationalism”) Winman’s comments (continued):: And when I asked you to PRODUCE MY QUOTE (that is my very “words”) you “craw fished” with:

Winman’s comments (continued): I didn’t “ASK YOU”, because you have PROVEN that you CAN NOT be trusted with other people’s “words” anymore than you can be trusted with the Holy words of God! YOU PUT “WORDS” INTO my mouth that I DID NOT SAY, but according to your understanding – I “implied it”. You did the SAME THING with brother Peter Ruckman’s “words” also {This is an extremely bad habit– contributing “words” to people that they have NOT SAID and “reading into” something that someone (or the Scriptures) SAY – something that was NOT SAID!}.

If you “feel uncomfortable” around here lately, it’s because, for some time, I have earnestly tried to be “patient” with you, and I gave you more “latitude” than those who have come here and who are far more obvious in their disingenuousness and deviousness. But your continual twisting and wresting of Scripture and your constant misuse and taking words and verses out of “context” has forced me to confront you with your perverse practices.

If you don’t want to “cross swords” with me again; then stop your nay saying and opposition to what I say - since your comments CAN NOT stand up against close scrutiny and the light of Scripture. If you persist in your obstinacy, rest assured that I shall continue to expose your “fallacious” reasoning and misuse of the Scriptures.

Just because you “USE” Scripture – doesn’t mean that what you say (or believe) is “Truth”. There have been MANY all down through the centuries that have “USED” the Scriptures TO further their own agenda, but God is only going to “approve” of those people who, in their Bible studies, were engaged in “rightly dividing the word of truth.” – ALL others are going to be “ashamed”!

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

I'll be quick... It's probably already said, but I have never heard of any hyperdispensationalist claiming that baptism saves, and if you aren't baptised, you aren't saved. Hypers or Grace Believers don't even recognise baptism as an ordinance.

you may be thinking of Landmarkists, which are close to Church of Christ in practice.

Brandon, thanks for your reply. But I am a little tired of Bro George and Chette especially attacking people here. I don't see how anyone can consider this Christian behaviour. It's not Christian behaviour. And you will know them by their fruits.

I have lost respect for Bro George. He thinks he knows everything and is the only person who understands scripture. I would absolutely disagree with him, I think his post on Rightly Dividing the Book of Acts is FULL of error. And I have posted many scriptures that clearly contradict his false teaching. But you know, I know these self-righteous types, nothing you can say or do will get through to them. They are so full of themselves, so arrogant and sure of themselves, that even the scriptures will not convince them of their errors.

To say a person does not need to understand scripture is so ridiculous as to be absolutely absurd. I cannot believe any intelligent person would say such a thing.

Why are we instructed to STUDY the scriptures? Why are told to compare scriptures? So we can understand them of course.

And to say we have no need to listen to teachers is also absurd. I got saved because I heard a preacher who understands salvation explain to me as a little boy how Jesus died for me on the cross and rose from the dead, and how I could pray to Jesus and ask for forgiveness and everlasting life.

1 Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


I don't even know why I am writing this, I know that absolutely nothing I or anyone else can say or do will reach these pompous self-righteous people. They are so incredibly self-deceived and do not realize it.

I have been here about six months. I have probably seen at least half a dozen people get banned, and most because they had a run in with Bro George. Many times Bro George was correct, but many times he was wrong. He cannot see that. He cannot conceive or allow himself to believe he is capable of error. He can look at a verse like John 7:37-39 which absolutely destroys his teaching (not what the scriptures really say) on Acts and completely ignore it. You aren't going to help someone like that.

I've said my piece, I don't know if I'll be back or not. I cannot stand these constant attacks on people who disagree with Bro George or Chette. You are right Brandon, people don't have to post, people can move on. And as long as you have these two here, that is going to be frequent.

That above post is a disgrace. You stated in several recent posts how unchristlike you perceive Brother Georges responses to you to be, and yet here you are slandering the man, labelling him a false teacher, pompous, self righteous, deceived.
He has spent weeks showing you truth, you have spent weeks going round and round in circles, taking scripture out of context. taking offence at being admonished, you were never labelled pompous, self-righteous or a false teacher, you were simply put right on WHO was being addressed with scripture, you refused to see it, you refuse instruction, you refuse correction. I have seen several occasions where Brother George has been shown scripture in a different context and he has embraced it.

We are too study to show ourselves approved onto God, not harmonize to show ourselves approved unto men.


It is NOT absurd at all, you were unsaved!! before the preacher explained the Gospel to you and you accepted Christ, you had no spiritual guidance nor understanding so someone HAD TO show you.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

when you were born again you received the Holy Spirit of God, you could open a Bible with GODS GUIDANCE and learn, of course we can learn from other people, but primarily we must be shown by GOD HIMSELF

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

We will all be put straight at the judgement seat of Christ on these matters,
Whether you post on these forums again is your own concern, I for one pray for you to seek quiet time with GOD and be shown scriptural truth by His Spirit. Sadly I think you are fully persuaded in your own mind that you are right.
Did you ever sit down and think that the reason you feel so offended in this or bullied by this is not because of Brother George or Brother Chette, but the FACT that the Holy Spirit of God is correcting you and you refuse to accept it.
Think about It, pray about it, many times I have been humbled and felt ashamed that my own opinion clouded my judgement on what the truth really WAS yet by Gods Grace he showed me the truth and I accepted it gladly.

What do you call any place where Christians and Non-Christians gather together? and is not a forum a place of virtual gathering? Are we being edified or edifying the body here?

I wasn't making any conclusions of anyone's salvation. but stated that if a person seems to fit into a category and we also hear or read their testimony you can put it together to see if that is anyone's problem in why they can't understand scriptures. it is not just salvation that is an issue in h not understanding the word grieving or quenching the spirit is another, out and out disobedience to God's word is another, and being a babe in Christ is another reason why some people don't understand the scriptures when they should be guided and lead by the Holy ghost to do so.

So after reading someone arguing for 300 plus posts, and if we read a testimony that is not Biblically correct one could conclude if someone is unsaved (not that anyone is), of if they shared on how they were rebuked by their pastor so they left off going to church. We could conclude that either this person is prideful or hurt or in disobedience to God's word. We are to discern these things. anyway that is all I was sharing with BroParish.

I don't know if you're doing this intentionally or not, but it's clear to me what the meaning is -- for example, when we're discussing Bible versions, and someone says the "meaning" is preserved, the Bible believer says that the "words" are preserved. When we study Scripture, we should be concerned with what God says, not with what someone else says God "means." If you do, as you say, "cannot believe any intelligent person would say such a thing," perhaps your first step should be to re-examine your understanding of what is being said. Perhaps they aren't saying what you think they are.

Now, I can either assume you don't know what "self-righteous" means, or you are simply slandering people. Neither Chette or George has exhibited self-righteousness. My guess is you mean something else. Just because you can't convince someone of your position, or that person will not relent, does not mean they are "self-righteous."

Now you are making stuff up. Name one person I have banned "because" they had a run-in with any particular person. After all, you are still here. Pam is still here. Bro. Parrish is still here. All of you have "had a run-in" with George at some point. Do you agree now that your claim is unreasonable? George is one of the most active posters here, and it is not surprising that many people who are banned get banned for things they have posted in threads George also posts in. But I do not ban someone just because they lock horns with some particular poster on the forum.

As I pointed out already, these kinds of attacks on my duties as a moderator come from both sides.... sigh.

I'm going to throw my two cents in. Of course, this is just IMHO.

I personally don't mind putting up with other forum members faults and foibles, considering I have plenty of my own, if they speak and teach the truth about the scriptures. I'll put up with a lot from them.

Those who twist and wrest scripture post after endless post I will add to my ignore list and never look back.

Problem solved.

Next...

Bro George

Once again you imply that only those who rightly divide the word of truth understand the Bible.

If I understand you, you believe that a "saved" person does not need to be taught anything. Then you write a whole lesson to teach us. Why?

1 Cor 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

This is in the church. Paul is teaching believers. Why? And he also makes it clear that is is important these believers understand the meaning of his teaching. They could not understand an unknown tongue.

1 Tim 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Again, this is describing a bishop's qualifications for duty in the church among believers. Why should he be apt to teach? What does it mean to "take care of the church of God?"?

1 Tim 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Why should Timothy put the brethren in rememberance of these things? They are saved, they have the Holy Spirit.

And a few verses later.

1 Tim 4:11 These things command and teach.

Why do you write out these lessons? We are saved. We don't need you to teach us.

Re: " Don't tell me what it “means” just tell me what it “says”"
 

Winman,

Once again you MISQUOTE me! WHY is it that you can NOT just quote MY “WORDS”, instead of “READING INTO” them whatever you want?

Winman said:
Your “problem” is you just can’t accept what is plainly written - you MUST put your personal “spin” on it in order for you to understand it. I did NOT “imply” anything! You are doing the “twisting” and “wresting” of my words, in an attempt to MAKE them “say” something other than what I said! :mad:

Now, what I want you to do is CITE the Post Number where I said what you are “IMPLYING” I said! And if you can’t – why aren’t you embarrassed? :confused:

I am going to repeat a litany of “CLAIMS” you have made lately which I have disproved beyond a shadow of a doubt, and for which you have NOT acknowledged your error, and for which you have not yet apologized:

In my Post #65 > On the Thread > “Rightly dividing the Book of Acts” I said:
My “CLAIM” throughout Post #65 is that there has been more than just ONE “GOSPEL”

Part of Winman’s Post #66 “reply”:
WHAT did I just say previously? “And the fact that - it was just before the Lord was taken by the nation of Israel’s leaders (to be killed) that He “forewarned” ONLY His disciples about His upcoming betrayal, death, and crucifixion [Matthew 20:17-19, 26:1-2] – does NOT “PROVE” that He “preached” His death, burial, and resurrection to the rest of the nation of Israel, or anyone else for that matter.” {My wording was “precise”.}

In your Post #66 you pointed to John 3:13-21; John 12:32-34; and John 8:28 as “proof texts” for your “CLAIM” (the rest of the verses that you cited had nothing to do with your “CLAIM”). The big “PROBLEM” with your “proof texts” is that NONE of them had the “RESURRECTION” in them!

You said: You said: “I do see” -and that is your big “PROBLEM”! You “SEE” things (“words”) that are NOT THERE! It’s called “reading into” written statements {the Bible’s or other people’s} “words” that are NOT THERE! ((You do this – all the time, and with NO shame or remorse.)

If you don’t have the “resurrection” in your message – you obviously DO NOT have the “Gospel”! And IF the “RESURRECTION” was not IN your “proof texts”, then your “CLAIM” has been PROVEN to be “FALSE”; and, in this instance, you have been PROVEN to be an UNRELIABLE source for Biblical “TRUTH”.

Did you ever “own up” to this ERROR? Did you ever admit that, in this case, you were WRONG? I TROW NOT! {My Post #69 clearly demonstrated your ERROR.}

Again your Post #13 on the Thread > “Dispensationalism”
To which I replied in my Post #27:
To which Winman replied in his Post #32:
To which I replied with my Post #35:
You said in your Post #13 > “Dispensationalism”:
I PROVED (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that:

Peter Ruckman NEVER said: “there is only one gospel”, as you claimed.

Peter Ruckman does NOT “agree” with you – that “there is only one gospel”.

Peter Ruckman believes there are at least Three (3) “Gospels”.

And I have proven that you have NOT come “to the SAME CONCLUSIONS as Ruckman”.

Have you ever ADMITTED that you were WRONG in these instances? Will you ever ADMIT that you are WRONG ABOUT ANYTHING – even after you are PROVEN WRONG with indisputable facts?

I have cited these two exchanges between us to demonstrate to the rest of the members on this Forum your pernicious handling of people’s words and the Holy words of God. At first I mistakenly contributed your hardheadedness to ignorance, but after dealing with you these last few weeks, I have come to realize there is a much deeper “PROBLEM” than just ignorance.

You said in your Post #4 > on premio53’s Thread > “Don't tell me what it “means” just tell me what it “says”

Winman’s Quote:
And yet in your Post #19 you say these things about me:
Now let’s see, you did say - ”Calling people names like "false teacher" is very reminicient of the Pharisees, not Jesus.” - DIDN’T YOU? I guess you are EXEMPT from your own condemnation? Hmmm? If I recall, there is a “word” in the Bible for people who SAY ONE THING – BUT DO ANOTHER, you wouldn’t happen to know it, would you? :confused:

Please notice the DIFFERENCE between your Posts and mine: You Post what you "think" I "IMPLIED" and NOT my exact "words" - while I quote you "VERBATIM".

And here are some of the things you “implied” I said in your reply to Brandon in your Post #19 > on premio53’s Thread > “Don't tell me what it “means” just tell me what it “says”

Winman said:
Now – what I want you to do is – CITE the THREAD and the POST NUMBER and point out PRECISELY WHERE I SAID THOSE EXACT “WORDS”! And IF YOU CAN NOT – then “forever hold your piece”, because you will have been PROVEN (once again) to be DISHONEST when it comes to “handling” people’s “words”, just as you have been PROVEN to be DISHONEST in “handling” the Holy “words” of God! :eek:

Luke, if I can inject a little levity into a somewhat strained thread, among the general population of "hypers", the fundamentalist groups, not the Bullingerite Universalists or Calvinist Stamites, but among the group I identify myself with none would ever say water baptism saves unless they are on LSD.

The Landmark/Bride churches are what I call Campbellite Baptists: You have to be visible, in a visible church, and baptized in their water with their church letter, otherwise you are not in the body of Christ as they teach the heresy of no "invisible church", that is, a group of plane crash victims in the Pacific on an island cannot be part of the Body if they read the Scriptures and get saved, well, there is no Brider among them them to carry on the "succession". They also teach the heresy that their Church was founded by John the Baptist, which is going to go over real well at the Judgment Seat Of Christ. I've known several ex-members of Dr. Ruckman's church who stated to me they are not Briders by profession but are by practice. This is part of Dr. Ruckman's bitter hatred towards Grace believers, as Briders pretty well have the Campbellite attitude towards any other church. So their attitude towards "hypers" is nothing to marvel at.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Good advice sis... and that concept is actually biblical, not to waste too much time with people who continually bring up contentions and dischord amongst the brethren. (Romans 16:7, Titus 3:9, Luke 10:10-11)

Many of the people who do these things have already made up their mind and are following after false doctrine and will not be open to the sound doctrine of TRUTH. (2 Cor. 11:13-15, Gal. 2:4, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 4:1, 2 Tim. 4:3)

Our brethren who are inspired to fight against such false doctrine are in a spiritual battle, however, and we should indeed support them.

Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. (Titus 1:9)

Jassy

Again we see you attacking brother Ruckman on this forum.
I don't think Ruckman hates you. Just because someone has a problem with some of your rotten doctrine doesn't mean they hate you. Smarten up, Tony.

Bro George said

Bro George, no, I do not think I am exempt. I did not enjoy saying all those things to you, I really did not. But I was trying to give you a little example of how you talk to people on this forum on a fairly regular basis. I could go back and find many posts were you rip fellow believers apart. In this instance, you did not criticize me, you criticized premio58. I don't know him/her, but I have seen you do this to others several times. It really bothers me to see a Christian (or any person) act like this. I had to say something.

And I do not think two wrongs make a right. But I almost laughed when a few here came to your defense. Did they ever criticize you when you went off on a fellow believer?

And I do think these types of posts are bullying. No, you can't really harm someone over the internet, but who wants to get a tongue lashing from you? It makes a person hesitant to speak their mind.

You see, I don't get all that upset when folks disagree with me, I expect it. People disagree, people have opinions. I can listen to others opinions without accusing them of not rightly dividing the word and other such criticisms. I just present what I think is the truth.

You can pick apart my words if you want to, it is just more of the same ill behaviour. The fact is, I have presented many scriptures that contradict your teaching.

For instance, John 7:37-39.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

You have taught that the Jews in early Acts had to repent of killing Jesus and be baptized to receive the Holy Ghost.

In these verses, first, it is clear that they apply to Jew and Gentile alike "any man". Second, verse 39 makes it clear that the determining factor in receiving the Holy Ghost is believeing. "they that believe on him".

Now "believe on him" is the gospel. Do I really need to post half a dozen verses that show that we are told to believe on Jesus for forgiveness of sins and everlasting life?

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

This last verse really throws a wrench into your teaching, because Paul reveals what John the Baptist was preaching, that "they should believe on him which should come after him, this is, on Christ Jesus". That is the gospel.

And this was Paul preaching to Gentiles, and was showing that John the Baptist preached the same gospel to the Jews as he taught to the Gentiles.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

These verses are about having forgiveness of sins and receiving everlasting life, not the restoration of the kingdom.

So, John the Baptist was preaching the gospel of receiving forgiveness of sins and everlasting life if you can accept it. And premio58 was correct about Mark 16:16. If you only read the first half of the verse, then yes, you would believe it necessary to be baptized to be saved. But when you read the whole verse, it is made clear that believeing is the factor in salvation, not baptism.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jesus did not mention baptism whatsoever in John 7:38. Now, if baptism were necessary to both have remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost for the Jews (remember, these verses are addressed to "any man"), then Jesus left out a very important detail. However, if believeing only is required to receive the Holy Ghost, then Jesus did not leave out anything.

There, I have presented solid scripture that contradicts your teachings. You can respond any way you wish.

Jassy, you are a blessing to me.

I have to bow out because I get in the flesh so easily but I do rejoice wholeheartedly in the brethren here who "speak forth the words of truth and soberness".

1 Thessalonians 5:12-16 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves. Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. Rejoice evermore.

You are a blessing to me also, sis. I think, both having come from churches that had very strong doctrinal teachings, in error, we have so many similarities. I thank the Lord that we are able to be members of this Forum and soak up all of the TRUTH posted here. Scriptures cannot be twisted to mean something different from what was said. Then it is no longer the truth, but a LIE. When it comes from the Bible, we recognize it as TRUTH.

Jassy

"My" doctrine is not "rotten" because it does away with your sacrament, and you can discuss it with Christ at the Judgment Seat brother. Your slavish devotion to a man will also be discussed. I'm yet to quote Cornelius Stam, Richard Jordan, Baker, Darby, you don't have the Scriptural knowledge to "rebutt" me in the water baptism thread, or any thread for that matter, so you turn us over to Dr. Ruckman, some Pharisee named Walker, and Harry Ironside who's not here to get Scripturally scourged by moi'. Would you like a thread in this forum where I'll discuss Ruckman's commentary on Genesis 9? Or do you agree with it? Smarten up? Pfft!(Your and Ruckman's condescending dismissal, see your reply to me in the water baptism thread)
And don't rebuke an elder when he's not done anything to you except maybe expose your guru.

Grace and peace Brother Parrish, if you understand what either mean.

Tony

Tbones,

I do not agree with Ruckman 100% that is for sure some of his snipes and scholarship has left a bad taste in many's life.

but please slow down a bit with BroParish, I and others. I am reminded of Romans 15:1, 2 and it just might be what is needed here in dealing with him.

Our reason to be on the forum is to edify one another.

Chette, I think Brother Parrish needs to be the one that slows down and stop following me all over the forum like the demon possessed girl in Acts 16 taking his little snipes at the "dry cleaner" and defending Dr. Ruckman. Dr. Ruckman can join this forum and defend himself. Dr. Ruckman don't need any imitators, he does a bad enough job being himself without 40,000 clones of himself out there. His obnoxious, condescending attitude don't work for him, it's not going to and don't work for others.

Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

I post these verses of Scripture for nothing, Chette, if they had been read by those in the Bride Baptist movement and believed, you and I would not be having this conversation.

Grace and peace Chette

Tony

TBones,

While I do agree with you on your consensus of BroParish and that he needs an attitude adjustment for sure.

you and I can do and be better than him.

I agree to the amount of clones Ruckman has inadvertently produced, and while I know him to be crass at times. He does have some useful insight to scriptures. and true if we would believe more of the Bible than just quote it, there would be no conversation as we have had.

LOL, your claws are showing again.
I know Ruckman, and all I was saying was I don't think he holds a "bitter hatred" for you. At that point you launched into a salivated fountain of disgusting remarks about demon possessed girls? Is this how they handle things over at your Grace movement? Yes, I repeat, smarten up.

If anyone on this forum has shown evidence of something even close to "bitter hatred" it would be YOU taking your shots at HIM. Is it possible you have a "bitter hatred" for Ruckman because he exposes hyperdispensationalism? Do you feel the same way about me? Let's be clear; you got nowhere on the Baptism thread because almost no one here including the owner of the forum agrees with your doctrine. That doesn't mean anyone hates you, not Ruckman, not Bro. Tim, not FredoHeaven and especially not me. Are you listening?

No matter, I don't even agree with Doc on every issue, but the man has done a lot of good and I don't see any "bitter hatred" in the man for people like yourself, and if you take a swipe like that at Bro. Ruckman, you can expect to get called out on it sir. You can attack me, howl at the moon and eat green cheese if you want, but it won't change anything. :cool:

BroParish,

Need I remind you that I have experienced your rhetoric and tactics in dealing with me on a issue of a MAN?

I know your ways and you can be very abrasive and often if a persons roughs someone they get rough.

So for you as well Roms 15:1,2. Some people do not care for Ruckman. you do. I care for him but I don't agree with all he says and teaches. He at time is Cankerous.
And I am sure you will admit that. so it is no surprise that people are against him.

TBones never said anything really bad about Ruckman and even if he did it is not up to us to defend him. in so doing it will only cause strife, Sedition and emulation. so why don't you be the stronger one and drop it.

Chette,
First you badger people for personal information on the forum.
Now it seems you are stirring the pot again.

Look brother, I appreciate your suggestion, how about this;
I will defend whoever I WANT to DEFEND.

Who are you to tell ME who to defend, while at the same time you yourself are sitting here DEFENDING those who make false accusations against God's man in the pulpit... how many subtle shades of hypocrisy do you live in? :rolleyes:

I'll stick to my guns on this, brother Pete is not perfect but he has been a great blessing to me and many others over the years. You can attack me all you want, but the man has done a lot of good and I don't see any "bitter hatred" in the man for people like Grace believers, and if people take a swipe like that at Bro. Ruckman, or Brother Gipp, (or any other men who stand for God's Book and good doctrine) well they can expect to get called out on it.
I'm certainly not angry at you or anyone else Chette, but it is what it is.
Now, let's see if YOU can "be the stronger one" and drop it.

If you will look at what I have shared I have given you defense as well as to your childishness in Christ. which shows even more through your posts not just #39. you may be older than I but you are as childish as they come and I say that respectfully.

you can defend who ever and all you want but it wont add one reward to your glory or his at the Judgment seat of Christ. You would do better to work on your own heart than to defend another man's weakness to which he also will give account to God.

And when he does stand to give account are you going to stand up for him then? I thro not. for Christ is his advocate and we need no other.

so why defend him to a Brother in the Lord who had God in his heart. Be the stronger one bro and bear with the infirmities of he that is weak. Don't be a weak brother who judges and don't be the stronger one who despises his brothers in the Lord. ALL of which have come through your post in dealing with me, Tbones and others.

Even if we all don't agree have a little respect for Christ in them and me. NOW we can drop it. ok?

Well that's the whole point; in the context of this banter I don't see that weakness of "hatred" in Ruckman, maybe you do but I don't. So you are agreeing with this nonsense, you are saying that Bro. Ruckman has a "bitter hatred" for Grace believers, is that what you are vomiting up now Chette?

Brother who judges? What on earth are you talking about?
Tony made an untrue statement about Ruckman.
I commented that Ruckman did not harbor that kind of hate. End of story.
At that point you got involved for what purpose?
Maybe for JUDGING?

As everyone can plainly see, you have done
NOTHING BUT JUDGE ME in the last several posts...
let's take a look at who is JUDGING...

"I know your ways and you can be very abrasive." - Chette

"you may be older than I but you are as childish as they come" - Chette

"I do agree with you on your consensus of BroParish
and that he needs an attitude adjustment for sure." - Chette

You wanna talk about ABRASIVE? I have made no such comments about you here, it's a one way street of personal insults. This is not the first time you have spewed personal venom at me here, and you have done it to others like Winman too. Which might not be unusual on a forum, WERE IT NOT FOR YOUR CALLING. Chette, you might want to back up and examine yourself in the mirror. Frankly and with no anger, I think you should reconsider and pray about your behavior as a PASTOR on this forum, because if this is how you run your ministry I could never support it in any way. Again I ask you, how many shades of hypocrisy do you live in sir? :confused: