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Biblestudent 10-30-2008 08:53 PM

Baptism by Pouring and Baptism by Burying (Immersion)
 
Most Baptists like me had thought baptizo (Gr.) should always mean "immersion". The KJV, however, did not translate but rather transliterated the word. The reason is obvious, baptizo can't always be by immersion. For example:

"POURED" BAPTISM
("Baptism with the Holy Ghost")

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Acts 2:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

"BURIED" BAPTISM
("Baptism by one Spirit into one body")

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The more detailed outline is not included here to avoid a lengthy post and for the brethren to freely discuss this matter. I would like to know what others think of this. This is one of the results of my attempt to apply the principles of right division to Bible study.

Traditional Anglican 10-30-2008 09:15 PM

It is interesting looking at forms of Baptism, as an Anglican, it depends on the Church, we HAVE Churches with full immersion tanks, mine does not, our sanctuary used to be a Presbyterian Church so we are not set up to "dunk" so we pour, or in a recent case, a Gentleman with severe MS in a wheelchair, our Pastor sprinkled, (it was just easier). All these methods have been used for 2 thousand years, sometimes pouring was the only way to do it because of limited place for immersion, or perhaps someone is bed-ridden, but wishes this. In my case I like to joke that I have all m bases covered, I was infant Baptized, THEN as an adult, I made Pilgrimage to Jerusalem and took full immersion in River Jordan. (Brrr! That was cold!) Blessings.

Biblestudent 10-30-2008 09:29 PM

Hi, TA! Most Filipinos also have experienced Roman Catholic sprinkling (as a baby), as well as immersion.

I am not, however, advocating different "forms" of water baptism to be practiced today. If water baptism is a "figure" (1 Pet. 3:21), then it must picture something.

I believe we ought to water baptized only by immersion in this Church Age. Immersion is the only mode that really pictures being "buried into Christ" or being "baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ".

Furthermore, the Scripture passages quoted in the first post are not references to water baptism but to two types of Spirit baptisms - (1) the pouring of the Holy Spirit on believers (in another dispensation) and (2) the Holy Spirit putting believers (in the Age of Grace) into the Body of Christ.

MC1171611 10-30-2008 09:37 PM

Don't forget the baptism of fire (Matt. 3:11, Lk. 3:16) and the baptism of Moses (1 Cor. 10:2). :D

Moses' baptism definitely wasn't immersion; they came out dry. But yes, the baptism of fire is definitely immersion...eternally.

Biblestudent 10-30-2008 09:49 PM

I tend to vary from the belief that "baptism with fire" is to be cast into the lake of fire forever.

If baptism WITH the Holy Ghost is the "pouring" of the Holy Ghost, it appeas to me that the baptism WITH fire doesn't match with being immersed into eternal fire. I think the baptism with fire matches closer to the "pouring" of fire in the Tribulation period, the pouring out of God's wrath.

I don't have a ready reference now (I'm out-of-town.), but the context of Matthew 3 seems to fit the pouring of fire (and of God's wrath) at the end of the Tribulation period, as well as at the end of the Millennium. OT references on the pouring out of God's wrath and the pouring of fire in Israel's "last days" are abundant. That is, if they refuse to be "baptized with the Holy Ghost" (pouring out of the Holy Ghost), they will be "baptized with fire" (pouring of fire and God's wrath).

Of course, I believe the unsaved will finally be cast into (immersed) the lake of fire; but the phrase "baptized with fire" (I believe) particularly refers to the pouring of fire, just as being "baptized with the Holy Ghost" is the pouring of the Holy Ghost.

In other words, I am of the opinion that the term "baptized WITH", as defined in the context, should be taken to mean "pouring". Of course, "baptism by...INTO", "put into" or "cast into" has to be immersion.

MC1171611 10-30-2008 09:54 PM

You're right; I wasn't thinking clearly. Sorry for the confusion. :rolleyes:

Biblestudent 10-30-2008 09:59 PM

Thanks!:)

stephanos 10-31-2008 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 10591)
Most Baptists like me had thought baptizo (Gr.) should always mean "immersion". The KJV, however, did not translate but rather transliterated the word. The reason is obvious, baptizo can't always be by immersion. For example:

"POURED" BAPTISM
("Baptism with the Holy Ghost")

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Acts 2:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

"BURIED" BAPTISM
("Baptism by one Spirit into one body")

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The more detailed outline is not included here to avoid a lengthy post and for the brethren to freely discuss this matter. I would like to know what others think of this. This is one of the results of my attempt to apply the principles of right division to Bible study.

I think this is a great post, with great info. It is also the precise reason the Mennonite pour (well the precise reason being that they have no concept of right division).

Thank you brother for making this plain and easy to follow. I will be using it ^_^

EDIT: Oh btw, can I get the lengthy version of this? Feel free to email it to me sphorner at-the-domain gmail put-a-dot-here com :D

Much Love in Christ Jesus,
Stephen

Biblestudent 10-31-2008 07:29 AM

I'm out of town now (puerto princessa city, palawan; the same city where chette lives ). The "lengthy" version is in my sister's computer back home, and I'll e-mail it to you when I get back Monday. Thanks for asking!

stephanos 10-31-2008 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 10641)
I'm out of town now (puerto princessa city, palawan; the same city where chette lives ). The "lengthy" version is in my sister's computer back home, and I'll e-mail it to you when I get back Monday. Thanks for asking!

No, thank you! Can't wait to look at it when I get the chance.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Biblestudent 11-09-2008 05:37 AM

Stephanos, I can't send you the notes I wanted to share with you. My computer is currently in a computer repair shop. I'm sorry for that. I'll send the notes as soon as the computer is repaired.

Gord 11-09-2008 07:42 AM

Would it be possible to post it, if it's not too large of a file? I too would use it for study.

Biblestudent 11-09-2008 07:59 AM

I'll try to post it here. Thanks!

stephanos 11-09-2008 03:35 PM

Cool, I'd wondered if any others wanted a chance to see this write up as well.

Looking forward to it.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Biblestudent 12-03-2008 03:18 AM

Stephanos and Gord,

At last, I was able to retrieve my lecture notes on Baptism from my newly repaired computer! Here is the link:

BAPTISM: Rightly Divided

http://www.sgtpulpit.profusehost.net/PRINT.html



stephanos 12-03-2008 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 12468)
Stephanos and Gord,

At last, I was able to retrieve my lecture notes on Baptism from my newly repaired computer! Here is the link:

BAPTISM: Rightly Divided

http://www.sgtpulpit.profusehost.net/PRINT.html

Great, thank you a bunch.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Scott Swart 12-14-2008 07:09 PM

When John the baptist was baptizing in Jordan, it is quite easy to assume that he was immersing people. The Lord Jesus was baptized in this manner. In Acts ch.8 Philip and the Ethiopian went down into the water. For what purpose? To immerse?
Whether we sprinkle or immerse isn't really the issue. The issue is the baptism that matters at the moment of conversion, the baptism by the Spirit into the body of Christ.

Biblestudent 12-15-2008 05:55 AM

"Sprinkle" from Swordsearcher
 
I looked up "sprinkle" from Swordsearcher:

ASHES
Exodus 9:8 And the LORD said unto Moses and unto Aaron, Take to you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward the heaven in the sight of Pharaoh.

BLOOD
Exodus 29:16 And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.
Exodus 29:20 Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.
Leviticus 1:5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Leviticus 1:11 And he shall kill it on the side of the altar northward before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall sprinkle his blood round about upon the altar.
Leviticus 3:2 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering, and kill it at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron's sons the priests shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.
Leviticus 3:8 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of his offering, and kill it before the tabernacle of the congregation: and Aaron's sons shall sprinkle the blood thereof round about upon the altar.
Leviticus 3:13 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of it, and kill it before the tabernacle of the congregation: and the sons of Aaron shall sprinkle the blood thereof upon the altar round about.
Leviticus 4:6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.
Leviticus 4:17 And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the vail.
Leviticus 5:9 And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it is a sin offering.
Leviticus 7:2 In the place where they kill the burnt offering shall they kill the trespass offering: and the blood thereof shall he sprinkle round about upon the altar.
Leviticus 14:6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:
7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.
Leviticus 16:14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
Leviticus 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
Leviticus 16:19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
Leviticus 17:6 And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Numbers 18:17 But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
Numbers 19:4 And Eleazar the priest shall take of her blood with his finger, and sprinkle of her blood directly before the tabernacle of the congregation seven times:
2 Kings 16:15 And king Ahaz commanded Urijah the priest, saying, Upon the great altar burn the morning burnt offering, and the evening meat offering, and the king's burnt sacrifice, and his meat offering, with the burnt offering of all the people of the land, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings; and sprinkle upon it all the blood of the burnt offering, and all the blood of the sacrifice: and the brasen altar shall be for me to inquire by.
Ezekiel 43:18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.

BLOOD (WITH WATER)
Leviticus 14:51 And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:

BLOOD (WITH OIL)
Exodus 29:21 And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.

OIL
Leviticus 14:16 And the priest shall dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD:
Leviticus 14:27 And the priest shall sprinkle with his right finger some of the oil that is in his left hand seven times before the LORD:

WATER
Numbers 8:7 And thus shalt thou do unto them, to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean.
Numbers 19:18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:
Numbers 19:19 And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.
Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

One more verse with the word "sprinkle":
Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Biblestudent 12-15-2008 06:00 AM

More: "sprinkling" "sprinkleth"
 
Sprinkling

ASHES

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

BLOOD
Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

BLOOD OF CHRIST
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Sprinkleth

BLOODLeviticus 7:14 And of it he shall offer one out of the whole oblation for an heave offering unto the LORD, and it shall be the priest's that sprinkleth the blood of the peace offerings.

WATER

Numbers 19:21 And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even.

Biblestudent 12-15-2008 06:07 AM

More: "sprinkled" (from swordsearcher)
 
ASHES
Exodus 9:10 And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast.

DUST
Job 2:12 And when they lifted up their eyes afar off, and knew him not, they lifted up their voice, and wept; and they rent every one his mantle, and sprinkled dust upon their heads toward heaven.

BLOOD
Exodus 24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
Exodus 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
Leviticus 6:27 Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy: and when there is sprinkled of the blood thereof upon any garment, thou shalt wash that whereon it was sprinkled in the holy place.
Leviticus 8:19 And he killed it; and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about.
Leviticus 8:24 And he brought Aaron's sons, and Moses put of the blood upon the tip of their right ear, and upon the thumbs of their right hands, and upon the great toes of their right feet: and Moses sprinkled the blood upon the altar round about.
Leviticus 9:12 And he slew the burnt offering; and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled round about upon the altar.
Leviticus 9:18 He slew also the bullock and the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings, which was for the people: and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled upon the altar round about,
2 Kings 9:33 And he said, Throw her down. So they threw her down: and some of her blood was sprinkled on the wall, and on the horses: and he trode her under foot.
2 Kings 16:13 And he burnt his burnt offering and his meat offering, and poured his drink offering, and sprinkled the blood of his peace offerings, upon the altar.
2 Chronicles 29:22 So they killed the bullocks, and the priests received the blood, and sprinkled it on the altar: likewise, when they had killed the rams, they sprinkled the blood upon the altar: they killed also the lambs, and they sprinkled the blood upon the altar.
2 Chronicles 30:16 And they stood in their place after their manner, according to the law of Moses the man of God: the priests sprinkled the blood, which they received of the hand of the Levites.
2 Chronicles 35:11 And they killed the passover, and the priests sprinkled the blood from their hands, and the Levites flayed them.
Hebrews 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Hebrews 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

OIL
Leviticus 8:10 And Moses took the anointing oil, and anointed the tabernacle and all that was therein, and sanctified them.
11 And he sprinkled thereof upon the altar seven times, and anointed the altar and all his vessels, both the laver and his foot, to sanctify them.

OIL WITH BLOOD
Leviticus 8:30 And Moses took of the anointing oil, and of the blood which was upon the altar, and sprinkled it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon his sons' garments with him; and sanctified Aaron, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.

WATER
Numbers 19:13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.
Numbers 19:20 But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean.
Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Biblestudent 12-15-2008 06:21 AM

An observation: "Sprinkle" and "Washing" vs. "Baptism"
 
(This if my fourth consecutive post.:) )

Looking at the versus above, the words "sprinkle" and "washing" are found in the New Testament.

"Baptism", however, can nowhere be found in the Old Testament. "Baptism" is a New Testament concept that began with John THE BAPTIST. He was the sent "to baptize", and the FIRST one to baptize.

In my observation, it appears that John's and Peter's baptism have the same meaning (and mode):

Mode: Baptism WITH water (picturing the baptism WITH the Holy Ghost and WITH fire)
Meaning: Baptism of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS ("when the times of refreshing shall come", Acts 3:19)

Paul's baptism, I believe, is unique (since he is unique apostle with a unique message to a unique body of people)

Mode: Baptism INTO water (picturing our Salvation, Position, and Gospel)
Meaning: Baptism BY one Spirit INTO the body of Christ, our being "buried into Christ", as well as the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ

Biblestudent 12-15-2008 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Swart (Post 13138)
When John the baptist was baptizing in Jordan, it is quite easy to assume that he was immersing people. The Lord Jesus was baptized in this manner. In Acts ch.8 Philip and the Ethiopian went down into the water. For what purpose? To immerse?
Whether we sprinkle or immerse isn't really the issue. The issue is the baptism that matters at the moment of conversion, the baptism by the Spirit into the body of Christ.

Hi, Scott!

I seem to view things a little differently with our strong Bible Believing brethren here. The "Heresy and Heresies" thread is quite "hot", and I hope mine won't be one.:D

Concerning Acts 8, I don't think that since Philip and the Ethiopian went down "into the water", it would mean that Philip immersed the Ethiopian, for the text says both went down into the water.

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

The question would be: Did "both" of them immerse together?

Looking at the text again, it says that after "both" went "down" "into" the water, Philip baptized him. So the "down...into" does not necessarily refer to the baptism but to both of them going down to the water.

stephanos 12-16-2008 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 13177)
Hi, Scott!

I seem to view things a little differently with our strong Bible Believing brethren here. The "Heresy and Heresies" thread is quite "hot", and I hope mine won't be one.:D

Concerning Acts 8, I don't think that since Philip and the Ethiopian went down "into the water", it would mean that Philip immersed the Ethiopian, for the text says both went down into the water.

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

The question would be: Did "both" of them immerse together?

Looking at the text again, it says that after "both" went "down" "into" the water, Philip baptized him. So the "down...into" does not necessarily refer to the baptism but to both of them going down to the water.


Correction: both of them went down into the water. The only reason for going into the water is to be able to immerse the convert into the water (just like John the Baptist in Luther's translation is translated "John the Dunker"). Any other form of baptism could be performed from the shore.

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Biblestudent 12-16-2008 05:13 AM

Baptism "WITH"
 
Hello, Brother Stephanos and others!

First of all, I would like to let everyone know that I am a Baptist and I baptize by immersion for Biblical reasons. Also, one thing I learned in my 11 young years of ministry, I don't have to force every passage to fit the doctrine and practice of the present age.

One example is on the issue of baptism. As a Baptist, I've been trained to believe that water baptism is by immersion, not because there is a verse that directly teaches that, but because the Greek word baptizo means "immersion" and that it is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

As a KJB believer, I'm a little cautious of going back to the "Greek". As a dispensationalist, I am aware of the other "extreme" that water baptism ought not be practiced in this age. As a Bible student, I heard someone who practiced baptism yet said that John the Baptist poured. The teaching was not clear to me, and of course, I disagreed! When I made my own investigations, I found it has some truth.

I noticed I have too many posts in this thread, but my purpose is to share the little that I learned.:) And, no, this is not one of my "pet" doctrines; this is just something that opened up a lot of Scriptures for me.

In rightly dividing the word of truth, one principle in Bible interpretation that I've learned and I found to work all the time is that "Context (not the word) determine the meaning."

For example:
What is the baptism WITH the Holy Ghost?
1. It's not baptism BY one Spirit.
2. It's not baptism INTO the body of Christ.
3. It's defined in the context (of Acts 2, 10, and 11) as the POURING of the Holy Ghost (fulfillment of Joel 2 and other OT passages).

Here is a baptism, which is not immersion, but a pouring. No doubt about it.

What is the baptism WITH fire?
I jumped into the conclusion that it is being cast INTO fire (Rev. 20:14; 21:8).
However, I saw that:
1. It's not baptism INTO fire (Rev. 20:14).
2. It is baptism WITH fire.
Reading Old Testament history and prophecies and the book of Revelation, I saw that God will one day:
1. POUR out his wrath upon the earth, and
2. POUR out fire upon the earth.
3. This is not people being put INTO his wrath.
4. This is not people being submerged into fire.
5. This is not yet lake of fire (Rev. 20:10).
6. This is not in eternity.
7. This is upon the earth.
8. That will be before eternity (Rev. 20:9).

What then baptism WITH water would mean?'
1. I guess it could not mean baptism INTO water.
2. I guess it is baptizing someone WITH water.
3. If baptism WITH the Holy Ghost is POURING, and baptism WITH fire is POURING, I guess both baptisms are best pictured ("figure", 1 Pet. 3:21) by baptism WITH water - and that has to be POURING.

Note also:

For Christ to be "baptized WITH":
Matthew 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Is to have something LAID ON him:
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Why I water baptize:
1. Paul did water baptize (1 Cor. 1).
2. Paul mentions "ordinances" (1 Cor. 11) and one of them has to be water baptism.

Why I baptize by immersion:
1. Immersion pictures our Salvation ("baptized BY one Spirit INTO the body of Christ", 1 Cor. 12:13)
2. Immersion pictures our Identification/Position ("buried INTO Christ by baptism INTO his death", Rom 6:1-4)
3. Immersion picture the Gospel of Grace ("death, burial, and resurrection of Christ", 1 Cor. 15:1-4)
4. We may also add, immersion also pictures the Judgment for those who reject the Gospel in the Age of Grace. Fire is not "poured" on them, but they're going to be "CAST INTO" the lake of fire. That is, if they don't get "baptized INTO Christ", they're going to be baptized "INTO the lake of fire".

I hope this makes sense.

Biblestudent 12-16-2008 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephanos (Post 13228)
Correction: both of them went down into the water. The only reason for going into the water is to be able to immerse the convert into the water (just like John the Baptist in Luther's translation is translated "John the Dunker"). Any other form of baptism could be performed from the shore.

Hello, again, Stephanos! I forgot to address that one.

Having settled (hopefully) in the previous post that baptism by pouring outside the Church Age is more than possible, I offer the following possible solutions. Briefly:

1. John the Baptist was in the wilderness and there is not "much water" in the wilderness. So he had to go down the Jordan River, for there is "much water" there.

a. Pouring (just as immersion) can be done even if one is down in the river, can't it?
b. There were too much people. It would be double work to fetch buckets of water. Much better get down in the river and pour on them "much water".

Note: After John baptized Jesus WITH water, Jesus went up out of the water (not rose above water, but "out of the water" to the riverside) was then baptized WITH the Holy Ghost DESCENDING from heaven and lighting UPON him.

2. Philip and the Ethiopian both went down into the water because:

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

a. Philip can't pour anything; there's no water up there. But "here is water" down here.
b. It would be difficult for Philip to go up and down and get water with his hand and pour on the eunuch, but it's certainly much easier for both of them to go down where there is water.

Again, I'm not forcing anything to anyone here, but what I'm trying to show is that it is certainly possible that John and Philip (and the Twelve) could have poured.

But, again, the "figure" is the most important thing for me. Possibilities are abundant, but the doctrine is what is important:

If water baptism under the gospel of the kingdom is a picture of anything, then it has to picture the pouring of the Holy Ghost and the coming from heavenof the King and the Kingdom down to earth.:)

stephanos 12-16-2008 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 13233)
Hello, again, Stephanos! I forgot to address that one.

Having settled (hopefully) in the previous post that baptism by pouring outside the Church Age is more than possible, I offer the following possible solutions. Briefly:

1. John the Baptist was in the wilderness and there is not "much water" in the wilderness. So he had to go down the Jordan River, for there is "much water" there.

a. Pouring (just as immersion) can be done even if one is down in the river, can't it?
b. There were too much people. It would be double work to fetch buckets of water. Much better get down in the river and pour on them "much water".

Note: After John baptized Jesus WITH water, Jesus went up out of the water (not rose above water, but "out of the water" to the riverside) was then baptized WITH the Holy Ghost DESCENDING from heaven and lighting UPON him.

2. Philip and the Ethiopian both went down into the water because:

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

a. Philip can't pour anything; there's no water up there. But "here is water" down here.
b. It would be difficult for Philip to go up and down and get water with his hand and pour on the eunuch, but it's certainly much easier for both of them to go down where there is water.

Again, I'm not forcing anything to anyone here, but what I'm trying to show is that it is certainly possible that John and Philip (and the Twelve) could have poured.

But, again, the "figure" is the most important thing for me. Possibilities are abundant, but the doctrine is what is important:

If water baptism under the gospel of the kingdom is a picture of anything, then it has to picture the pouring of the Holy Ghost and the coming from heavenof the King and the Kingdom down to earth.:)

I see your point. I just think that if pouring was the mode in this case, the two would have gone down "to" the water, not "in" the water. It doesn't make sense for Philip to get wet if he doesn't have to, ya know? :p

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Biblestudent 12-16-2008 05:58 AM

Well, maybe, it's really hot in the desert. That's why! :bathbaby:

Could it be possible that first they poured:rain:, then they dived?:smow:

stephanos 12-16-2008 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 13236)
Well, maybe, it's really hot in the desert. That's why! :bathbaby:

Could it be possible that first they poured:rain:, then they dived?:smow:

LOL, you had to really stretch to make those Smilies work, lol. :pound::p

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Forrest 12-16-2008 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 13236)
:smow:

I'm okay with the :smow: icon if it represents Philip's head sticking up as he holds the Ethiopian eunich under the water. Baptizing him in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Buried with Him in baptism and raised to walk in the newness of life. :nod:

stephanos 12-16-2008 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 13286)
I'm okay with the :smow: icon if it represents Philip's head sticking up as he holds the Ethiopian eunich under the water. Baptizing him in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Buried with Him in baptism and raised to walk in the newness of life. :nod:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN! :amen:

:pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound: :pound:

Peace and Love,
Stephen

Biblestudent 12-17-2008 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 13286)
Buried with Him in baptism and raised to walk in the newness of life. :nod:

Are you kidding? Did Philip teach the eunuch Romans 6??:bump2:

Forrest 12-17-2008 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biblestudent (Post 13333)
Are you kidding? Did Philip teach the eunuch Romans 6??:bump2:

Of course Philip didn't teach the eunuch Romans 6.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
I do think some pastors rightly use those words today during water baptism as a public declaration, proclamation, and testimony to what has occurred in the believers life spiritually. "...we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

I am crucified with Him, buried, and raised to walk in newness of life. That is a "spiritual" reality in my life. :nod:

Biblestudent 12-17-2008 08:01 PM

That's why we don't pour; we bury 'em! :washing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forrest (Post 13343)
I do think some pastors rightly use those words today during water baptism as a public declaration, proclamation, and testimony to what has occurred in the believers life spiritually. "...we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

I am crucified with Him, buried, and raised to walk in newness of life. That is a "spiritual" reality in my life. :nod:

Amen, Brother!:amen:


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