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Shofar 02-24-2009 07:29 AM

A Question Concerning Hell --
 
Ok, yesterday I was moving through the internet looking for biblical reference when I found the link to Dial-the-Truth Ministries. Curious to look around, I notice several links referring to articles concerning the location of the lake of fire, aka hell. Interesting reading, & disturbing at the same time. However, here's my question that I hope others can share their thoughts to, because I'm a little confused now.

One of the articles: http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

This one has a segment towards the bottom of a claim that there are wailings & screams directly below us, even now. But if I'm understanding my Holy Bible correctly, I thought that souls slumber until one of two events -- the resurrection for souls that believe in Jesus Christ & keep His word & the day of judgment & the second death where they not found in the Book of Life would be cast into the lake of fire forever. This website looks like it defends the KJV, but what is the story behind that sound byte of the wailings? Are there tormented souls already in the lake of fire & if so, how is that possible?

Am I wrong? If it be true, that's enough to make my hair stand on edge for a very long time. I pray for understanding & thoughts into the matter, thanks.

George 02-24-2009 09:03 AM

Re: " A Question Concerning Hell --"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shofar (Post 15814)
"Ok, yesterday I was moving through the internet looking for biblical reference when I found the link to Dial-the-Truth Ministries. Curious to look around, I notice several links referring to articles concerning the location of the lake of fire, aka hell. Interesting reading, & disturbing at the same time. However, here's my question that I hope others can share their thoughts to, because I'm a little confused now."

One of the articles: http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

"This one has a segment towards the bottom of a claim that there are wailings & screams directly below us, even now. But if I'm understanding my Holy Bible correctly, I thought that souls slumber until one of two events -- the resurrection for souls that believe in Jesus Christ & keep His word & the day of judgment & the second death where they not found in the Book of Life would be cast into the lake of fire forever. This website looks like it defends the KJV, but what is the story behind that sound byte of the wailings? Are there tormented souls already in the lake of fire & if so, how is that possible?

Am I wrong? If it be true, that's enough to make my hair stand on edge for a very long time. I pray for understanding & thoughts into the matter, thanks.
"

Aloha Shofar,

Man's "Attributes" are:

MAN'S "SUBSTANCE":
Body (our Tabernacle), Soul (our Essence), & Spirit (our Life)

MAN'S "FACULTIES":
Heart (our Motivator), Mind (our Facilitator), & Conscience (our Regulator)

{Man is made up of 5 parts that are spiritual in nature and one part that is physical.}

When a man dies three things happen instantaneously:

#1. His spirit departs the body and goes back to God, who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

James
2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ecclesiastes 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those
that are given to it.



#2. His soul departs the body and either goes to be with the Lord (if he's saved) or, if he has failed to believe the Gospel, his soul goes to Hell (Not the Lake of Fire - not yet).

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Genesis 35:18
And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.


Luke 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



#3. The body goes into the ground and "sleeps" until either the "First Resurrection" (of the saints), or the "Resurrection of the dead" (the second resurrection).

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death .
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

"Soul sleep" is a heresy taught by Jehovahs Witnesses (and others). You will note that when the Lord Jesus Christ described the condition of a soul in Hell (this is NOT a "Parable"), that although the body was "buried" (asleep), the soul of the rich man was very much alive and still possessed all of his faculties (heart/mind/conscience).

This is a very short explanation of a very long study. Be very careful who you read or go to for the answers to your questions. The Holy Scriptures contain all of your answers, but you need to ask God to not only give you knowledge, but that He also will give you understanding, discernment, and wisdom in these matters.

Shofar 02-24-2009 09:28 AM

Hi George, so if I'm getting this right, hell & the lake of fire are two different things? A soul that denies the Lord Jesus Christ is sent to hell the moment after physical death, but the lake of fire is during judgment day farther off? Then that would mean....... Oh wow. I'm looking directly below me, I never really took a moment to seriously consider the reality of what is happening right now, the souls of men & women, forever cut-off from the grace of God in an eternal nightmare.

You're right about that, George - if I do read anything outside the scriptures, I make sure to try whatever I read with the scriptures as my guide. It's just that after hearing that sound byte, it's almost like I had a vision of what that place could possibly be like & I'll admit, it made me really sick to my stomach for a little while. It caught me off guard because before that, it was just another subject on my list to learn about. But I'll tell you this, that alone confirms yet again that the Lord is not messing around, not in the least & I am thankful to have this brought to my awareness.

Billie 02-24-2009 10:08 AM

Thank you, Brother George. This is the clearest explanation on what happens...according to Gods' Word!... when we die. I'd been told about 'soul sleep' when I was a new christian, but somehow it didn't ring true..even tho they made it 'sound' like truth...my heart wasn't at peace.
Is there a site you know, that I could get the entire teaching on this? Thanks so much for any help:nod:

Blessings

kittn1 02-24-2009 11:32 AM

I didn`t listen to the sound byte, Shofar, but I read the article.

It should be enough to light the soul-winning fire under any Christian!

Rolando 02-24-2009 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kittn1 (Post 15821)
I didn`t listen to the sound byte, Shofar, but I read the article.

It should be enough to light the soul-winning fire under any Christian!

Ooh my sister in Christ, I did listen to the sound byte. I was terrified! I smile about it now, but when I did listen I was in shock I did shed a tear. Even my little brother, whom I believe not to be saved (he's very worldly, doesn't care about the things of GOD, and has no Holy Spirit conviction), was pretty disturbed by it. I honestly don't know if that sound was really Hell, but it was something I've never heard before in my life. Praise GOD I am NOT going to Hell! Praise the Lord Jesus Christ I am GOING to Heaven! Too bad I can't say the same for my family...

George 02-24-2009 12:59 PM

Re: "A Question Concerning Hell --"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Billie (Post 15820)
"Thank you, Brother George. This is the clearest explanation on what happens...according to Gods' Word!... when we die. I'd been told about 'soul sleep' when I was a new christian, but somehow it didn't ring true..even tho they made it 'sound' like truth...my heart wasn't at peace.
Is there a site you know, that I could get the entire teaching on this? Thanks so much for any help
" :nod:

Blessings

Aloha sister Billie,

I greatly appreciate your kind remarks, however, I regret to say, that I seldom recommend anyone (nowadays) when it comes to Bible issues or doctrine. There are a few men (very few) that are Scripturally sound, but the sad fact is most of the so-called Bible teachers and preachers today are either looking for "a following" [Acts 20:30], or they are trying to SELL you something [1Timothy 6:10] or BOTH!

According to the Scriptures, we are supposed to be doing all things for the edification of the brethren [Romans 14:19; Romans 15:2; 1Corinthians 10:23; 14:5, 12, 26; 2Corinthians 12:19; Ephesians 4:12,1 6, 29; 1Thesallonians 5:11; 1Timothy 1:4]. The problem today (in this time of blatant apostasy) is that practically every man (saved or lost) is doing that which is "right in his own eyes" - exactly like in the days of the "Judges" in Israel.

Judges 21:25
In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.


We are living in a time of "anarchy" (like in "Judges"), where there is no FINAL AUTHORITY. And as far as most Christians are concerned, since they no longer have a FINAL AUTHORITY, they are going along with the rest of the world and just "doing their thing". But what they have forgotten or are deliberately ignoring is that:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." [Proverbs 21:2]

If we Christians think that we are going to be able to plead "ignorance" when it comes to these matters, because of the anarchy and confusion around us, we had better have another thought coming. We have God's perfect and Holy word. We have the Holy Spirit living inside of us. The Lord has instructed all of us that: '"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." [Matthew 4:4] and He has commanded us to: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [2 Timothy 2:15]. So we are without excuse.

It behooves all of us to continually strive to remember that, in spite of what men may say or do, the following will always and forever be true:

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Kiwi Christian 02-24-2009 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shofar (Post 15817)
...so if I'm getting this right, hell & the lake of fire are two different things?

They sure are. Notice how death and HELL are cast into the lake of fire in the following verse:

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I think of hell, which is beneath us in the heart of the earth, as being a temporary holding facility for the damned until a future time when it is emptied out or cast into the lake of fire.

Bro. Parrish 02-24-2009 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George (Post 15816)
When a man dies three things happen instantaneously:

#1. His spirit departs the body and goes back to God, who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it

James
2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ecclesiastes 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those
that are given to it.


Do you brothers think that unsaved men have a spirit?
If so, is it a living spirit or dead spirit?
We know believers have the Spirit of God.
I have Ruckman's sermon on Body Soul and Spirit, as I recall he says the unsaved man is like a flat tire, live body, live soul, and dead spirit. Now if these spirits are dead where are they going when they go back to God? Does God store these spirits individually or is it one human spirit, or breath of life? Just throwing it out there for discussion guys... here are some of my favorite verses, link at bottom with more:

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecclesiastes 3:21)

But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. (1 Corinthians 6:17)

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

http://www.godandscience.org/cults/manspirit.html

kittn1 02-24-2009 04:29 PM

Amen, brother Rolando.....I can't say the same for my family either, which is why we need to keep praying for them.

Here's another article on hell from Terry Watkins and Dial-A-Truth:

http://www.av1611.org/hell_place.html

Kiwi Christian 02-24-2009 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 15840)
Do you brothers think that unsaved men have a spirit? If so, is it a living spirit or dead spirit?

I believe all men have a spirit, if unsaved it is dead in trespasses and sins, if saved if is quickened (made alive):

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 15840)
We know believers have the Spirit of God.

Yes. So we have our own alive spirit, plus the Holy Spirit within us.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 15840)
Now if these spirits are dead where are they going when they go back to God? Does God store these spirits individually or is it one human spirit, or breath of life?

Those are some questions brother! I havn't got the answers. I believe that the soul of a man takes the form of a body after it leaves the flesh, eg. the eyes and tongue of the rich man in hell, in Luke 16...but what does the spirit look like, can it even be seen? What does God do with it when it returns to Him? I know not.

Psalms 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Bro. Parrish 02-24-2009 06:13 PM

Ahh yes, 1 Corinthians 2:10, that is a very good passage brother Kiwi...
I'm not sure that I completely understand it, but I like it... ;)

George 02-24-2009 06:15 PM

Aloha brother Parish,

Before I did my study on the heart of man, I accepted the teaching that all men are born with a "dead" spirit, I no longer believe that is true. I do not believe that the spirit in man can die, because it emanates from God (the source of ALL life), and it returns to God when the body dies.

So then, I believe that the teaching that when Adam sinned that his spirit "died" must be in error. Adam died "spiritually" in the day that he sinned, but his spirit (that emanated from God) did not. That is, the very second Adam sinned his "connection"; "link"; or (more properly) "union" with God was BROKEN and he died "spiritually", but his spirit (not the Holy Spirit) did not die, because this was the "life force" within him that gave him life.

The following is a portion from my study - "The Heart of the Matter". Please read the verses carefully and see what you think. I can tell you this though, nowhere's in the Holy Bible can I find where the spirit in man can die - perhaps you can.

THE SPIRIT {Our "Life"}

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

The Bible clearly testifies to the existence of spirits and distinguishes between God’s Holy Spirit and evil spirits. The Scriptures also demonstrate a distinct difference between the spirit within man and an animal’s spirit.
(Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?)

The word “spirit” (pertaining only to mankind – and excluding God’s Spirit or evil spirits, etc.) is mentioned approximately 144 times in 134 Verses in the Holy Bible. To accurately describe something that we cannot see, but accept by faith in the Scriptures, is extremely difficult. Webster’s Dictionary of 1828 is not that much help here either, because of the difficulty distinguishing between the soul and spirit.

THE BIBLE DEFINITION OF MAN'S SPIRIT
Quote:

The spirit (pertaining only to mankind) is that substance [which is given by God] within a man or woman wherein our very life resides i.e. the spirit is life itself. In the Bible the spirit is separate and distinct from the heart and the soul in purpose, though it may have some similar characteristics.
The word “spirit” (pertaining only to mankind) is used almost exclusively in the Bible in describing the life force that resides within a man or woman. The lifewithin man is manifested in energy, power, activity, etc. (James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.)

It is quite clear from the testimony of Scripture that our spirit [“life] emanates from the Lord God of the Bible. (Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.) I believe that man’s spirit is given [by God] to men and women at the moment of birth and at the moment of death that spirit returns unto God [who gave it]. God gave us our “life”, He has every right to take it back whenever it pleases Him Job 1:21. (Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.)

There is a clear connection between the breath that is in man and his spirit.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust (body) of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;


Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
and his

From the moment of birth until death our life is in his hands. We have no power either to retain that life or to prevent our death. (Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it)

While the Scriptures clearly demonstrate a distinct difference between the heart [a faculty] and the spirit [a substance] in purpose, a comparison between the heart and the spirit reveals that they both have many of the same characteristics.

The following verses contain both the words heart and spirit together.

Exodus 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

Exodus 35:21 And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the LORD'S offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments.


Deuteronomy 2:30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Joshua 5:1 And it came to pass, when all the kings of the Amorites, which were on the side of Jordan westward, and all the kings of the Canaanites, which were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan from before the children of Israel, until we were passed over, that their heart melted, neither was there spirit in them any more, because of the children of Israel.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit
and his breath;

Psalms 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit

Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Psalms 77:6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made diligent search.

Psalms 78:8 And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.
within me. was

Psalms 143:4 Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart

Proverbs 15:13 A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken.

Proverbs 17:22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

Ecclesiastes 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
within me is desolate.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 65:14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit
within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 21:7 And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


Mark 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


1Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Additional verses on man’s spirit:

OLD TESTAMENT

Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
{I do not believe that Job is referring to the Holy Spirit here - I believe he is speaking about his own "spirit".}

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

Psalms 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
and his

Ecclesiastes 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Daniel 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.


NEW TESTAMENT

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Mark 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Luke 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.


Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Acts 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Acts 5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.


Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Acts 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:


1Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

2Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the
joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

James2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


{NOTE: The words spirit and ghost are used interchangeably in the King James Bible.}

The above study is an example of how I study the Bible. I want to know everything Almighty God has to say about an issue or a doctrine, that is why for the last 20 years I no longer inquire from men as to what they might think about a Scriptural matter.

My studies are from the Holy word of God, and wherever God's words differ with men, I throw out whatever men may say or teach, and cling to the precious words that God has preserved for all of us in the King James Bible.

Yea, as the Scriptures say:

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.



Kiwi Christian 02-24-2009 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George (Post 15851)
So then, I believe that the teaching that when Adam sinned that his spirit "died" must be in error. Adam died "spiritually" in the day that he sinned, but his spirit (that emanated from God) did not. That is, the very second Adam sinned his "connection"; "link"; or (more properly) "union" with God was BROKEN and he died "spiritually", but his spirit (not the Holy Spirit) did not die, because this was the "life force" within him that gave him life.

Hi Bro. George, so you believe the "quickened" and "dead" of Ephesians 2:1 is that of the "connection" or "union" between our spirit and God? Have you found other scriptures that use the word "dead" with this meaning of being disconnected, as opposed to not being alive? Thanks.

Bro. Parrish 02-24-2009 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by George
Quote:

It is quite clear from the testimony of Scripture that our spirit [“life”] emanates from the Lord God of the Bible. (Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.) I believe that man’s spirit is given [by God] to men and women at the moment of birth and at the moment of death that spirit returns unto God [who gave it].
Bro George thanks for your quick reply and all that info.
I think you have made some good points which I shall consider.
The only part I have a problem with is the part above about the moment of birth. Those are fighting words for pro-lifers my brother. I think the unborn are fully alive in the womb (same as you and me, not partially alive or sort of alive, etc.), the only reason Adam wasn't is because he was not BORN from a womb. He had no umbilical and no life, he was a "special case."
Sorry brother, I think Ruckman and you are both wrong are that one.
(Luke 1:15, Isaiah 49:1, Judges 13:7, Jeremiah 20:17). And you guys know how I love Bro. Ruckman. Plenty of locked threads about that whole issue.

But, that's what makes Bible study interesting, and I salute you for the rest of the information. I'm not sure I have a hard opinion on the dead vs. live spirit issue, I was always under the impression that Ephesians 2:1 indicated our spirits were dead, but I guess that is debatable. Either way, thanks again for your thoughts my brothers, I appreciate both of you very much.

Winman 02-24-2009 07:57 PM

I always thought that dead means separated from God.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

So, to be dead means to be separted from God. But also the Bible speaks of two different types of bodies.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I could be wrong on this, but I believe the unsaved will be raised in a corruptable body as we have now. They will be subject to pain and even disease.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I think worm here could mean bacteria and disease.

Not only will a person be tormented in fire, but I believe a person's body will continue to deteriorate as it does as we age. The body will corrupt more and more, yet not die.

Kiwi Christian 02-24-2009 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 15860)
I always thought that dead means separated from God.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

So, to be dead means to be separted from God.

But death isn't mentioned anywhere in those verses? You're saying that when Cain went out from the presence of the Lord he died?? The Isaiah verse is good, but again there's no death in the verse and nothing about the spirit of a man either?

If death means separation here, then why didn't God say to Adam "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely be separated/cut off/disconnected", but He said "surely die". If nothing in Adam literally died, as in his spirit, then it becomes figurative, right?

Winman 02-24-2009 09:10 PM

Kiwi Christian

OK, first of all, I am no Bible scholar like many here. I am just a simple fellow who reads God's Word and asks God to help me understand it.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Couple of things here. First, notice God only gave Adam this command, Eve was not around yet. So I believe Eve learned this command from Adam.

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Notice that God mentioned nothing about touching the fruit to Adam. But Eve believed you could not touch it.

But we know that Adam and Eve did not die (physical death) the very day they ate the fruit. Adam lived 930 years.

Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

But something significant did happen to both Adam and Eve when they ate the forbidden fruit. Before they ate they were naked and not ashamed.

Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Now notice, that not only did they realize they were naked, suddenly they became fearful of God. They hid and were separated from God.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


So, you see here they were separated from God. And God had to make coats from skins to re-establish the relationship. So an innocent animal (most likely a lamb) had to die and shed it's blood to cover their sins, which is a picture of Christ.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

George 02-24-2009 09:19 PM

Re: "A Question Concerning Hell --"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian (Post 15852)
"Hi Bro. George, so you believe the "quickened" and "dead" of Ephesians 2:1 is that of the "connection" or "union" between our spirit and God? Have you found other scriptures that use the word "dead" with this meaning of being disconnected, as opposed to not being alive? Thanks."

Aloha brother,

I have been so busy the last few months that I haven't been able to research this whole issue. I've got a lot on my plate - so to speak!

However, you will notice that Ephesians 2 doesn't say that our "spirit" was DEAD - BEFORE we were QUICKENED (when we got saved), it says:

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

The question is: Which "attribute" of man Is "dead"? Or How many "attributes" could be "dead"? And does the word "dead" in this context mean dead as in a "dead" (lifeless) body?

If we examine the following verses it becomes obvious that our definition or concept of the word "dead", may not always line up with the way God expresses it in His Holy word.

Romans 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: {Was Abraham "DEAD"? Not in the sense that we understand "dead"!}

Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? {This is DEEP STUFF! How are we "dead" to sin? My body is still alive; my soul is alive; my spirit is alive - HOW am I "dead" to sin? What attribute of mine is "dead" to sin?}

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: {Again - What "attribute" of man is considered "dead" with Christ?}

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. {Notice the words "newness" of spirit? I don't believe our spirit was "dead" - but it has been made "NEW". We don't only have the Holy Spirit living in us, we have a "NEW" spirit (a "spirit that has been "CHANGED"?)}

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) ;)

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.


1 Timothy 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hebrews 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

I believe that Adam died "spiritually" the moment he ate of the fruit. However, there are far too many verses in the Bible that clearly state that the "life" that we have is derived from the "spirit" that is within in us (which emanates from God, WHO IS LIFE). Does God put a dead "spirit" within a person? I believe that a person can be "spiritually dead" without necessarily having a "dead" spirit. I don't profess to understand all that is involved in this issue, but I repeat: Is there a verse (or verses) in the Bible where it clearly says that the "spirit" that is in man dies, or is dead? I haven't been able to find one - perhaps someone out there can. :confused:


George 02-24-2009 09:38 PM

Re: "A Question Concerning Hell --"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 15855)
Originally Posted by George


Bro George thanks for your quick reply and all that info.
I think you have made some good points which I shall consider.
The only part I have a problem with is the part above about the moment of birth. Those are fighting words for pro-lifers my brother. I think the unborn are fully alive in the womb (same as you and me, not partially alive or sort of alive, etc.), the only reason Adam wasn't is because he was not BORN from a womb. He had no umbilical and no life, he was a "special case."
Sorry brother, I think Ruckman and you are both wrong are that one.
(Luke 1:15, Isaiah 49:1, Judges 13:7, Jeremiah 20:17). And you guys know how I love Bro. Ruckman. Plenty of locked threads about that whole issue.

But, that's what makes Bible study interesting, and I salute you for the rest of the information. I'm not sure I have a hard opinion on the dead vs. live spirit issue, I was always under the impression that Ephesians 2:1 indicated our spirits were dead, but I guess that is debatable. Either way, thanks again for your thoughts my brothers, I appreciate both of you very much.

Aloha brother Parrish,

I have stated my beliefs on the issue, but I could be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time) :), and so other than continuing to hold to my convictions, unless I can be proven wrong from the Scriptures, I try not to make it an issue with the brethren; although some of the brethren strongly disagree with me.

I am pleased that you are willing to re-examine the Scriptures on the issue of the "spirit" that is within man. This is one of those issues that will probably never be settled amongst the brethren, until we meet Him "face to face" - and then we shall know, even as we are known.

There are some Bible issues that are worth "fighting" over and there are those that are so DEEP that we may as well admit that we just don't know everything. :)

Winman 02-24-2009 09:42 PM

I think people see death as physical corruption.

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

This verse says Jesus saw no corruption. However, we know he died.

Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Now, what does forsaken mean? It means to be abandoned, or separated from.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Kiwi Christian 02-24-2009 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 15868)
Kiwi Christian

OK, first of all, I am no Bible scholar like many here. I am just a simple fellow who reads God's Word and asks God to help me understand it.

Amen. From one student of the word to another then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 15868)
Now notice, that not only did they realize they were naked, suddenly they became fearful of God. They hid and were separated from God.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


So, you see here they were separated from God...

I understand all that, but I don't believe that their separation and hiding from God here is the "death" the Lord told Adam would occur if he sinned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman
I think people see death as physical corruption.

In some cases it is, but not always, as Bro. George demonstrated in a recent post.

I think of death as the ending of life, yet whatever has died can still exist on, it doesn't have to disappear, it just doesn't live, but God can bring it back to life again, just like our bodies in the rapture if we die beforehand! The second death is the eternal damnation of the soul, it's not annihilation. The damned will be wide awake and experiencing pain forever and ever, yet they are not alive, but dead.

We must study, study, study...

Shofar 02-25-2009 11:24 AM

Another question (yea, I am filled with them), from what I have seen & read of these articles concerning the reality of hell, since tormented souls are already directly below us, even now - does that mean that the fallen angels are there too? In other words, are the fallen angels confined to hell or do they have free liberty to move back & forth to the surface since the Holy Bible mentions that they, though fallen, as still made of spirit & not flesh?

Right now, I'm listening to Revelation 9 concerning the 5th trumpet. The bottomless pit opens & the locusts are unleashed to torment those that have not the seal of God 5 months; the connection of hell & bottomless pit match, but if that be the case, then the locusts would be the fallen angels set loose? But if that be true, then it would mean that they were bound since it took a heavenly angel with a key to unleash them? It is written that hell is prepared for the devil & his angels, so they would be one & the same.......Well, any insight concerning this is greatly appreciated, thanks --

Bro. Parrish 02-25-2009 01:56 PM

Shofar,
I am not an expert on demonology or angels, but scripture does indicate some of the fallen creatures are currently imprisoned until God's day of judgment (I Peter 3:19-20; II Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6).

Others have been given some liberty on earth and in our atmosphere, we know Satan is called the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2, Zechariah 5:1-9), and I think that even today the pagans who worship idols in many countries are in fact engaged in the direct worship of demons without realizing it. (Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 106:36-37)

Others are given the ability to interact with and control humans on a limited basis, but all are subject to the authority of Christ and they are aware of their appointment with judgment (Matthew 8:28-34, Mark 5:1-20, and Luke 8:26-33).

James 2:19 declares that even the demons believe that there is only "one God," however the demons "tremble" because they are aware of the judgment of God that they (demons) will suffer, he has prepared a place for their eternal punishment. (Matthew 25:41)

The good news is; that even the most powerful demonic locust monsters from the pit (along with the "king" that is over them) are no match for the power of our Lord Jesus Christ!

Shofar 02-25-2009 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 15914)
Shofar,
I am not an expert on demonology or angels, but scripture does indicate some of the fallen creatures are currently imprisoned until God's day of judgment (I Peter 3:19-20; II Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6).

Others have been given some liberty on earth and in our atmosphere, we know Satan is called the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2, Zechariah 5:1-9), and I think that even today the pagans who worship idols in many countries are in fact engaged in the direct worship of demons without realizing it. (Deuteronomy 32:17, Psalm 106:36-37)

Others are given the ability to interact with and control humans on a limited basis, but all are subject to the authority of Christ and they are aware of their appointment with judgment (Matthew 8:28-34, Mark 5:1-20, and Luke 8:26-33).

James 2:19 declares that even the demons believe that there is only "one God," however the demons "tremble" because they are aware of the judgment of God that they (demons) will suffer, he has prepared a place for their eternal punishment. (Matthew 25:41)

The good news is; that even the most powerful demonic locust monsters from the pit (along with the "king" that is over them) are no match for the power of our Lord Jesus Christ!

Hi Bro. Parrish, thank you for the biblical references, I will make note to review them further when I am finished with work for the day. :) It's beginning to make more sense, I caught something of interest in Revelation 12 how the devil was cast out into the earth & his angels were cast out with him. You do bring up an interesting point, on how some are bound while others are not bound; one would think to see them all bound, but I guess there are reasons for why things are currently how they are.

MC1171611 02-26-2009 03:18 PM

Being that this is one of my pet subjects, I figured I'd say something on this...but being that I'm currently in my zombie mode I won't be able to say much.

Genesis 6 talks about either satanic or even holy angelic beings (the sons of God) that left their first estate and cohabited with humans, producing a race of super-human giants and mutants.

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2Pet. 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

There are two groups of fallen creatures: one are those that were cast out with Lucifer, and those that willingly left their first estate. The first group are known as devils or demons and roam freely on the earth and through space at Satan's bidding; their eternal habitation will be the Lake of Fire..."prepared for the devil and his angels." The second group are those that apparently took on a human form and died in the Flood: these are bound in chains of darkness in Hell currently.

Ok I hope that was even slightly coherent.

Kiwi Christian 02-26-2009 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611 (Post 15958)
The first group are known as devils or demons and roam freely on the earth and through space at Satan's bidding; their eternal habitation will be the Lake of Fire..."prepared for the devil and his angels."

This first group warrants further study. What scripture do you use to prove that devils/unclean spirits are fallen angels who will end up in the lake of fire? There could well be three groups of creatures, with your first group split into two. But that creates a bit of a mystery, where did these devils/unclean spirits originate from?

Winman 02-26-2009 03:55 PM

Quote:

I think of death as the ending of life, yet whatever has died can still exist on, it doesn't have to disappear, it just doesn't live, but God can bring it back to life again, just like our bodies in the rapture if we die beforehand! The second death is the eternal damnation of the soul, it's not annihilation. The damned will be wide awake and experiencing pain forever and ever, yet they are not alive, but dead.
Oh, I agree, the dead do not cease to exist. I have a family member who belongs to a group that believes the dead will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be destroyed and cease to exist. I believe as you, that the dead will continue to exist in eternal punishment.

But notice death always involves separation.

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

And the account of the rich man:

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

In this world, the evil are not separated from God, and enjoy his blessings and mercies.

Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

So, in this life even the evil enjoy blessings from God, but in Hell they are completely separated from Him and his mercy and blessings.

The unsaved hate the true God, they do not want Him to rule over them. He simply gives them what they want. So, they spend the rest of eternity without Him.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Kiwi Christian 02-26-2009 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 15960)
But notice death always involves separation.

So, in this life even the evil enjoy blessings from God, but in Hell they are completely separated from Him and his mercy and blessings.

So, they spend the rest of eternity without Him.

Yes that is the traditional viewpoint. So how do you handle the following passage, you would have to believe "in the presence of the Lamb" is only temporary, yet the context is "for ever and ever":

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

We believe that our God is omnipresent, but if we teach that the damned are absent from His presence therein could lie a contradiction?

Psalms 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Winman 02-26-2009 06:33 PM

You have a point there.

However the Lord also said;

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


So, we all stand before God at the judgement, but the unsaved will be sent away.

Perhaps as with the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the unsaved can be seen, but there is a great gulf fixed.

My relative who does not believe in Hell, often asks how a person can be in a flame AND in darkness.

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

But here we see the stars composed of burning gas, yet they are also in darkness. And they are seperated by a great gulf we shall never be able to cross. Yet we can see the stars.

Bro. Parrish 02-26-2009 06:48 PM

Kiwi: good questions.

Winman: good answers.

Winman... you have to watch our brother Kiwi carefully, he does ask some very good questions. And whatever you do, don't get him started on the worms! Okay I'm leaving now... :D

Kiwi Christian 02-26-2009 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 15969)
You have a point there.

However the Lord also said;

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


So, we all stand before God at the judgement, but the unsaved will be sent away.

It could be an absence from the PHYSICAL presence of Jesus Christ.

I'm reminded of the passage in Isaiah 66 which I believe refers to the lake of fire and it's inhabitants, it says that we "will look upon" them at regular intervals, the context is the new heavens and earth:

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And there we find that mysterious word "worm" which I believe is a reference the the very soul of those who have died in their transgressions/sins, in that they will take the form of a worm in the lake of fire. I think Bro. Parrish wholeheartedly agrees with me here! :p

Winman 02-26-2009 07:54 PM

You might be correct. But I have often thought it is talking about literal worms, or perhaps bacteria.

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings. 8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.


Now here the worm is not their soul, but an actual worm. Now to me this is speaking of the decay of the body.

Just my theory, but I believe that the unsaved will not only be tormented in fire, but they will continue to decay as a dead body decays forever. Pretty gruesome, but I believe this might be the case.

Kiwi Christian 02-26-2009 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings. 8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

It looks like the context in these verses is the "grave", meaning their fleshly body in the ground, not eternity in the lake of fire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 15974)
Just my theory, but I believe that the unsaved will not only be tormented in fire, but they will continue to decay as a dead body decays forever. Pretty gruesome, but I believe this might be the case.

I can't get my head around an eternal decaying, down here if something decays it breaks down and eventually disappears, and we know that's not the case in eternity. What verses do you use to support this theory, brother?

Bro. Parrish 02-26-2009 10:18 PM

Winman, I warned you brother...

As I have explained to Bro. Kiwi in great detail, I think "their worm" could be indicative of undying worms in hell, supernatural worms which shall eat and eat and eat... not a pretty thought. I have never totally rejected or accepted Kiwi's worm-soul theory, and I have far too much respect for him to argue. Mark my word---we went round and round on this one time until he had me SEEING worms. :)

For the record; I think these are the supernatural worms of hell which cover the fallen angel Lucifer (Satan) in Isaiah 14:9-15.

They are made for a special purpose, they NEVER die, just like "the fire that NEVER shall be quenched." (Mark 9:43-48).

I think these may be the same supernatural worms which God apparently used to devour Herod Agrippa in a matter of seconds. (Acts 12:23).

I don't see how anyone could be dogmatic about it, I think it depends on how you interpret the meaning of worm.

1. God has used fiery serpents to torment and kill people. (Numbers 21:6-9)

2. Worms are associated in scripture with hell and satan. (Isaiah 14:9-15)

3. There is a worm that never dies, associated with fire that is never quenched. (Mark 9:44)

4. There are spiritual creatures that torment humans (Mark 9:22)

5. Scripture calls men worms, but they are also called serpents, vipers and dogs. It's not literal.
Unless you think they are all reptiles and canines as well as worms. (Matt. 23:33, Isaiah 56)

6. A plastic worm (or rubber worm) is a plastic fishing lure, generally made to simulate an earthworm. Plastic worms can carry a variety of shapes, colors and sizes, and are made from a variety of synthetic polymers. Some are even scented to simulate live bait and are offered under the trade names "Bass Assassin," "Slug-Go," and "Squirmin' Super Worm."

Sorry brothers but I had to lighten things up a little.
That last one comes free with the post, no extra charge. :)

Kiwi Christian 02-27-2009 04:35 AM

Okay, here's my 2c about this "worm":

Scripture recognizes that man IS a worm:

Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

Incidentally, the male sperm has the appearance of a worm!

The soul of man has a bodily shape once it has left the flesh:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as theywere, should be fulfilled.

The soul can burn forever in Hell as a body without ever burning up:

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth, 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Note that the rich man in hell was tormented "in this flame", it was the fire which was causing his suffering, there's no mention of any supernatural creature/s tormenting him.

Jesus Christ repeated the words "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" three times in Mark 9, which is a reference to Isaiah 66:24, the context is eternal existence in HELL:

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Notice how He mentions body parts: hands, feet, and eyes, then He ends with "their worm dieth not". It looks obvious to me that their worm is them, it's "their" soul. I believe it is a description of what they become, and that they will degenerate into that shape in the lake of fire.

I don't see "their worm" as being a separate creature such as a supernatural worm which is somehow designated (theirs) to tormenting them, or eating them throughout eternity. I believe the suffering and torment the damned will experience will be caused by "fire and brimstone" according to scripture:

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


If one thing is for sure brethren, it's GREAT to be saved, amen.

Bro. Parrish 02-27-2009 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian (Post 15978)

The soul of man has a bodily shape once it has left the flesh...

That is exactly right.
A human shape, hence the robes.
I guess this is one reason I am not feeling the whole worm-soul thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwi Christian (Post 15978)
If one thing is for sure brethren, it's GREAT to be saved, amen.

Agreed my brother in New Zealand, and thanks to you for your
contributions to these forums.

Winman 02-27-2009 04:28 PM

Quote:

Winman, I warned you brother...

Bro. Parrish, Hey, that's OK, Kiwi Christian gave verses to support his opinion. Truth is, years ago I wondered about these verses and thought worm might have indeed meant soul.

That said, there are verses comparing man to dogs, swine, ass etc...

I personally believe the soul is similar to our bodies, the rich man in hell requested that Lazarus dip his finger in water and apply one drop to his tongue.

As far as everlasting decay, I think it is possible. My family member who does not believe in everlasting torment uses the same argument, how can a person spend eternity in a fire and not be consumed? I showed him these verses:

Exo 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

Kiwi Christian 02-27-2009 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 15988)
My family member who does not believe in everlasting torment uses the same argument, how can a person spend eternity in a fire and not be consumed? I showed him these verses:

Exo 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

Show him these also:

Daniel 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. 23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26 Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire. 27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

Of course, these men were not wicked, they were not dead, it was their pysical (not their soul form) bodies that were in the fire, but the principle you are making is there.

Winman 02-27-2009 04:55 PM

Kiwi

That IS good, I can't believe I didn't think of that. Thanks!


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