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geologist 03-14-2009 07:14 AM

Why is this not a contradiction?
 
Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

In the above verse the Bible says that the Lord God brought forth both the sea creatures and birds (fowl) from the waters.

This is reaffirmed in the following verse:
Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

But this verse presents an apparent contradiction:

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

This verse says that the Lord God brought forth the fowl from the ground, not the waters.

Why is this not a contradiction?

Tandi 03-14-2009 07:45 AM

First thought that comes to mind is that the waters brought forth sea birds, such as gulls, pelicans, etc.

The earth brought forth land birds such as sparrows, etc.

All life was created by Divine Fiat....spoken into existence by God. Life did not "evolve" from primordial soup. The poetic language used in Genesis conveys truth in non-scientific terminology.

Shalom,

Tandi

geologist 03-14-2009 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tandi (Post 16782)
First thought that comes to mind is that the waters brought forth sea birds, such as gulls, pelicans, etc.

The earth brought forth land birds such as sparrows, etc.

All life was created by Divine Fiat....spoken into existence by God. Life did not "evolve" from primordial soup. The poetic language used in Genesis conveys truth in non-scientific terminology.

Shalom,

Tandi

Ok, but first ground rule: Please spare me on the anti-evolution platitudes. Nobody mentioned anything about evolution, and I don't intend to bring that subject up (I don't believe it, anyway). We are dealing here only with divinely inspired Scriptural text.

That being said. Yes, but the "poetic language" cited does appear to contradict itself. My first thought was that the first instance could have meant water birds like penguins, but they can not "fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." (Gen 1:20) That would also rule out other flightless birds which are land dwellers.

BOTH the birds that the waters brought forth (Genesis 1:20-22) and that were brought forth from the ground (Genesis 2:19) are said to fly.

So, again, the question is this: One passage says they came forth from the waters, another says they came from the ground. Why is this not a contradiction?

Winman 03-14-2009 09:46 AM

Gen 1:20 says "And God said"

This is telling you the method God used to create these creatures.

Gen 1:21 says, "And God created"

This is telling you God brought forth something that did not previously exist.

Gen 2:19 says, "And out of the ground the LORD God formed"

This is telling you the material or substance God used to form these creatures.

geologist 03-14-2009 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 16787)
Gen 1:20 says "And God said"

This is telling you the method God used to create these creatures.

Gen 1:21 says, "And God created"

This is telling you God brought forth something that did not previously exist.

Gen 2:19 says, "And out of the ground the LORD God formed"

This is telling you the material or substance God used to form these creatures.

Your answer does not explain my original question. Is the substance God used to create the fowl the "waters" (Genesis 1:20-22) or the "ground" (Genesis 2:19)?

Winman 03-14-2009 10:22 AM

Geologist

We are made (as well as all creatures) from both the ground and the water. A trace of all elements can be found in the human body. But there is much water too. Here is a statement from a doctor about the percentage of water in the body I found.
Quote:


Different people have different percentages of their bodies made up of
water. Babies have the most, being born at about 78%. By one year of age,
that amound drops to about 65%. In adult men, about 60% of their bodies
are water. However, fat tissue does not have as much water as lean tissue.
In adult women, fat makes up more of the body than men, so they have about
55% of thier bodies made of water. Fat men also have less water (as a
percentage) than thin men.
So, God knew exactly what He was saying, there is no contradiction whatsoever.

Bro. Parrish 03-14-2009 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geologist (Post 16788)
Your answer does not explain my original question. Is the substance God used to create the fowl the "waters" (Genesis 1:20-22) or the "ground" (Genesis 2:19)?

Winman brings up a good point.

What if the answer is BOTH. Check this out...

All animal life was completed on the 5th day. (Gen. 1:21-23)

Man was created on the 6th day. (26-31)

The event in 2:19 could be a "naming event"
not a creation event. (the animal creation was already completed on day 5).

You will notice in 1:27 he created them "male and female" but not in 2:19.

In 2:19, I think it is possible that God created only one each of the living creatures from the earth as a "snap shot" for Adam to review them and name them all in assembly line fashion. This was no small feat, but still easy for our God of creation to whip up a quick tiger, ostrich or giraffe from the dirt in front of Adam.

God presents the mighty steed...
God: "Adam, what would you call this?"
Adam: "Hmmm, let's go with Horse (or whatever)."

God presents the Pachyderm...
God: "How about this?"
Adam: "I like the name Elephant."

God presents the Platypus...
God: "How about this?"
Adam: "Are you serious?" :D :D :D

Winman 03-14-2009 10:57 AM

Geologist

The creation accounts in Gen 1 and 2 argue against your Gap Theory. According to your theory, the earth was destroyed and laid waste between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.

"And the earth was without form, and void'

Gappers argue that "without form" means destroyed. And this is one meaning of the word. But the primary definition is formlessness, without features.

But we see God using the word "formed" in several verses.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

So here the LORD God formed man, every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air from the ground. But this previously "unformed" ground was not lying in a state of destruction or even waste.

Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

So, at least here in Gen chapter 2, the ground was not some destroyed wasteland as Gappers claim the earth was in Gen 1:2. It was producing every plant of the field, and every herb of the field. And there was water available too, as a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.

Winman 03-14-2009 11:00 AM

Quote:

God presents the Platypus...
God: "How about this?"
Adam: "Are you serious?" :D:D:D

Good one Brother Parrish!

Luke 03-14-2009 06:54 PM

Not sure if this was said, but if it was, I'll say it simpler

Genesis 1 describes day 1-6

Genesis 2 describes the events in the Garden of Eden, and God's creation regarding Eden. So in Genesis 2, the birds are everywhere else, and then God creates some locally in Eden. That's also the explanation for why the order is out of wack with Genesis 1. He uses the earth to do this, rather than the water. No big deal.

Samuel 03-14-2009 08:13 PM

This clip may explain the problem better than I can.

A common literary feature of Hebrew poetry in the Old Testament is called parallelism, in which the words of two or more lines of text are directly related in some way. This feature can be found in any poetic passage, and sometimes even in narrative, although it is more common in the Psalms and Proverbs.

Recognizing parallelism as a poetic feature can sometimes aid in understanding or interpreting a passage. For example, the use of parallelism usually means that the message of the text is in the larger passage and its overall point or impact rather than individual words or single lines. Also, specific words that may be ambiguous or used in unusual ways can be clarified or more narrowly defined by seeing them in the context of a parallel structure.

geologist 03-14-2009 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 16795)
Geologist

The creation accounts in Gen 1 and 2 argue against your Gap Theory. According to your theory, the earth was destroyed and laid waste between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.
"

(Deep sigh)
This is off topic. My views on the Gap Theory have absolutely nothing to do with my specific question.

Bro. Parrish 03-14-2009 09:39 PM

Well, I think your question has been answered. :)

geologist 03-14-2009 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 16815)
Well, I think your question has been answered. :)

No, it has not. There has been plenty of opinions expressed, but no clear answer.

swordsman 03-14-2009 10:32 PM

Why is this not a contradiction?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by geologist (Post 16816)
No, it has not. There has been plenty of opinions expressed, but no clear answer.

They were two separate events

One was creation

One was where Adam saw God make the animals himself ( not all just one of each), and then Adam named them.

No contradiction

geologist 03-14-2009 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordsman (Post 16818)
They were two separate events

One was creation

One was where Adam saw God make the animals himself ( not all just one of each), and then Adam named them.

No contradiction

Your answer makes the most sense, so far.

Debau 03-14-2009 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geologist (Post 16781)
Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

In the above verse the Bible says that the Lord God brought forth both the sea creatures and birds (fowl) from the waters.

This is reaffirmed in the following verse:
Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

But this verse presents an apparent contradiction:

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

This verse says that the Lord God brought forth the fowl from the ground, not the waters.



Why is this not a contradiction?

Sounds like you may be driving at Water(dwelling) birds in Gen 1 and Land birds Gen 2. Possibly "the open firmament of heaven" in Gen 1:20 is the air above the waters, the firmament being associated with water. They are water birds. Adam named the Land birds "of the air" in Gen 2:19.
No contradiction, just a summary creation account in Gen 1 explained in further detail in Gen 2.

Can you breed a duck with a pigeon? :flypig:

Luke 03-15-2009 12:17 AM

Not sure if this was said, but if it was, I'll say it simpler

Genesis 1 describes day 1-6

Genesis 2 describes the events in the Garden of Eden, and God's creation regarding Eden. So in Genesis 2, the birds are everywhere else, and then God creates some locally in Eden. That's also the explanation for why the order is out of wack with Genesis 1. He uses the earth to do this, rather than the water. No big deal.

REPOSTING this because I don't think anyone ever reads the last post on a page. Forget Hebrew literary laws (this is english), forget popular interpretations. This is only understood by reading it as it stands. Genesis 1 is Days 1 - 6. Genesis 2 is Day 6 in the Garden of Eden. The verses even declare it to be so. Verse 8 defines the context, location and period of time that the rest of the verses fit into.

Reading the text is the clearest way to see it.


Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground
made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
Gen 2:11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
Gen 2:12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
Gen 2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
Gen 2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


As the poster above said - this is when God created creatures and brought them to Adam. Maybe Adam was not standing by any water at that time.

EDIT: Debau, how can it be a summary.. when birds are formed before man in Gen 1 and then birds are formed after man in Gen 2. It's a completely different account. Genesis 1 account is an overview of day 1 through 6. Genesis 2 is an account of what happened in day 6 in the garden in Eden.

geologist 03-15-2009 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 16823)
EDIT: Debau, how can it be a summary.. when birds are formed before man in Gen 1 and then birds are formed after man in Gen 2. It's a completely different account. Genesis 1 account is an overview of day 1 through 6. Genesis 2 is an account of what happened in day 6 in the garden in Eden.

Luke,
That was very helpful, but I still have some confusion.

I had personally been looking at Genesis 2 as an expansion of day 6 details. The reason being that after God forms all the different creatures out of the ground, and brings them to Adam to name, He then makes Eve. However, the Creation account of Genesis 1 says:

Ge*1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So, Eve was created on the sixth day. This leads me to think that the events outlined in Genesis 2 are an expansion of day 6 events/details.

Samuel 03-15-2009 05:50 AM

Ge:1:20: And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Ge:1:21: And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Ge:2:19: And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Ge:2:20: And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.


See the and before every change of subject in the text. This is done in the above mentioned Parallelisms, and separates such sentences into multiple statements. There is no contradiction in Genesis 1 & 2, it simply states God made the animals, then he brought them before adam to name them. I was taught this in Sunday school 101.

It has nothing to do with what time God made them, it is simply reinforcing the statement that God created them.

There are no contradictions anywhere in the Bible, except for only those we want to see them. Better watch out, this is done a lot in Bible Prophecy also. As it was mentioned above, this is not English its Hebrew. A different set of rules apply here.

This is why Tindale developed this form of poetic English. He found the common form of English was unable to convey the Hebrew correctly. And it was Tindale, not Shakespeare that developed it.
If not for Tindale, Shakespeare would not have been smart enough to do it. All the more reason for the KJV, the MV's with their modern English can not correctly convey it either.

geologist 03-15-2009 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel (Post 16835)
See the and before every change of subject in the text. This is done in the above mentioned Parallelisms, and separates such sentences into multiple statements.

if what you say is true, that the "AND" denotes a change of subject, then...

Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

...there must also be a change in subject between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2?

I think a few people here would disagree with that deduction, but I accept your answer. NO MISTAKES or contradictions in the KJV Bible. Thank you for the answer

Samuel 03-15-2009 06:33 AM

What do you see in those two verses, that would form a contradiction. And how do you interpret them?.

Parallelisms do not apply in every case, only where they are evident.

Bro. Parrish 03-15-2009 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geologist (Post 16816)
No, it has not. There has been plenty of opinions expressed, but no clear answer.

What?
Now wait a minute, hold your horses, stop the parade...

I answered the question clearly in post no. 7, and Swordsman echoed my answer in post no. 15.

At that point you stated "your answer makes the most sense, so far."

So it's obvious the answer has been provided brother.
There isn't a flaw in it, and there are no contradictions in Genesis either.

I can certainly understand how one could get confused over it, but
some careful study and the Holy Spirit taught me this a long time ago.
Did you honestly start this thread thinking there were contradictions in your Bible? I doubt it, since you already stated "no mistakes." It's a good question though.

Forrest 03-15-2009 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 16823)
REPOSTING this because I don't think anyone ever reads the last post on a page.

Brother Luke, that my brother, is hilarious! :laugh:

Perhaps we should conduct a poll: "Who reads the last post on a page?"

Debau 03-15-2009 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Debau (Post 16820)
Sounds like you may be driving at Water(dwelling) birds in Gen 1 and Land birds Gen 2. Possibly "the open firmament of heaven" in Gen 1:20 is the air above the waters, the firmament being associated with water. They are water birds. Adam named the Land birds "of the air" in Gen 2:19.
No contradiction, just a summary creation account in Gen 1 explained in further detail in Gen 2.

Can you breed a duck with a pigeon? :flypig:



Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke
EDIT: Debau, how can it be a summary.. when birds are formed before man in Gen 1 and then birds are formed after man in Gen 2. It's a completely different account. Genesis 1 account is an overview of day 1 through 6. Genesis 2 is an account of what happened in day 6 in the garden in Eden.


I contend it is not a different creation account. Consider, did God create Eve at the same time as Adam, as in Genesis 1, or later, as in Genesis 2?
I believe Genesis 1 is a summary account, with Genesis 2 further explaining the details.
Gen 2:19a is just a recap and not an indication of any animals created after man.

Luke 03-15-2009 06:12 PM

Genesis 1 Order

Day 1 - Earth, Light
Day 2 - Firmament
Day 3 - Dry Land and Herbs
Day 4 - Stars Planets etc
Day 5 - Birds, Fish
Day 6 - Beasts of Earth, Man and Woman

Genesis 2 Order

The account begins with Day 6 in Gen 2:7

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen 2:5 places the time period AFTER day 3, Gen 2:4 places it after day 4 (the heavens, plural) and Gen 2:7 confirms it as day 6.

Gen 2:8 is God creating the garden in Eden. Herbs and greenery were already everywhere else, as seen in verse 5.

God then proceeds to create great rivers the spring forth from the centre of Eden and go out. This means one of two things. Either Eden had a supernatural spring that came forth from somewhere (perhaps a Rock), or it was a massive area with a mountain range in it.

Verse 19, God forms animals

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The order contradicts Genesis 1 - beasts first, birds second, and no fish (interestingly enough, no fish is named in the Bible except the whale, which God named himself in Genesis 1).

In Genesis 2:19 Adam is already created. This is a seperate account. This is not the same account as Gen 1, because Adam was created AFTER the birds and AFTER the beasts. Here, we have God creating them in front of, or very near Adam, and Adam names them.

So to sum up again - God creates everything in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 gives the correct order of creation. Genesis 2 gives more detail in regards to DAY 6, covering not only man's creation, but also how God created him (from dust, and breathed into him the breath of life), and how God created woman from man, and why. Genesis 2 is not an overview of Day 1 through 6, but only Day 6.

geologist 03-15-2009 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 16861)
The order contradicts Genesis 1 - beasts first, birds second, and no fish (interestingly enough, no fish is named in the Bible except the whale, which God named himself in Genesis 1).

(attention to a correction: Whales are not fish, they are mammals)

So to sum up again - God creates everything in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 gives the correct order of creation. Genesis 2 gives more detail in regards to DAY 6, covering not only man's creation, but also how God created him (from dust, and breathed into him the breath of life), and how God created woman from man, and why. Genesis 2 is not an overview of Day 1 through 6, but only Day 6.

I am in total agreement with your last statement.

geologist 03-15-2009 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bro. Parrish (Post 16848)
Did you honestly start this thread thinking there were contradictions in your Bible? I doubt it, since you already stated "no mistakes." It's a good question though.

No, I did not start this thread thinking there was a real contradiction in the KJV Bible. I started this thread to find out why there was the appearance of a contradiction concerning where the fowls came from; the waters or the ground.

I was honestly looking for the answer to this particular question, but I did so in full faith, knowing that there was an answer out there. And there was.

Bro. Parrish 03-15-2009 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geologist (Post 16880)
No, I did not start this thread thinking there was a real contradiction in the KJV Bible. I started this thread to find out why there was the appearance of a contradiction concerning where the fowls came from; the waters or the ground.

I was honestly looking for the answer to this particular question, but I did so in full faith, knowing that there was an answer out there. And there was.

Fair enough brother, in that case I salute you for asking it. :)

Bro. Parrish 03-15-2009 10:23 PM

Here's a question...
Can you guys think of some other special creatures that God may have "whipped up" or "specially made" after the main creation for various purposes? :rolleyes:

Luke 03-15-2009 11:06 PM

Behemoth and Leviathan, although the former is not declared to be unique, and Adam may well have named it, and the latter is Satan's serpentine form.

geologist 03-15-2009 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 16887)
Behemoth and Leviathan, although the former is not declared to be unique, and Adam may well have named it, and the latter is Satan's serpentine form.

What about Dragons? It seems that every culture on Earth has a dragon in its mythology.

Luke 03-16-2009 12:07 AM

Dinosaurs (which was a word only invented in the 1800's, prior to this they were called dragons), or perhaps Satan or other devils have physically manifested themself at various times (as he did in Eden).

Bro. Parrish 03-16-2009 08:40 AM

It seems that God prepared two creatures for special purposes in the book of Jonah, a great fish/whale creature and also a worm...

Now the LORD had PREPARED a great fish to swallow up Jonah. - Jonah 1:17

But God PREPARED a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered. - Jonah 4:7

Winman 03-16-2009 02:39 PM

Quote:

Now the LORD had PREPARED a great fish to swallow up Jonah. - Jonah 1:17

But God PREPARED a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered. - Jonah 4:7
Bro. Parrish, this isn't creation here. The primary definitions of "prepared" in both verses is

1) to count, reckon, number, assign, tell, appoint, prepare

I believe the meaning here would be to assign or appoint. So God spoke to the whale and the worm and gave them assignments. That's how I see it anyway.

Who was it that said God created animals in Adam's presence? I don't agree with that, the fowls and the moving creature that hath life in the waters were created on the fifth day.

Now, "the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind" were created on the sixth day like man. I personally believe Gen 1 is in chronological order (first day, second day etc.), so I believe the animals were made before man.

Gen 2 is not necessarily the account of a specific day. I personally think it covers an unspecified period of time, maybe even weeks, months, or even longer. I think it would have been very difficult for Adam to name all the animals in a single day, there are lots of animals in the world, and there were many more then than today. God could easily do this, but this is not an easy task for a man. This may have taken Adam quite some time to do this.

And Geologist, you criticized me for bringing up the Gap Theory, but then you brought it up yourself later. :)

Luke 03-16-2009 03:34 PM

I said it, because it's right there in the Bible

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

This happened in day 6 IN the garden. It is a seperate event to day 5 in Genesis 1. Adam was already alive here in 2:19. The rest of the earth had animals all over it by day 6. This is IN THE GARDEN.

verse 18 makes it very clear that it was AFTER adam was created, and these were created either in front of Adam, or very near to him.

Winman 03-16-2009 03:55 PM

Luke

Not to argue, but it has never come across that way to me. If God created the animals in Adam's presence, then why does it say he "brought" them to him?

Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


I believe God created the animals on the fifth and sixth day, when he brought the animals to Adam could have been sometime later.

Now, saying that, in Gen 2:18 God says "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him"

Then in Gen 2:19 it says God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.

Then Gen 2:20 says Adam gave names to the cattle, the fowl of the air, and to all the beasts of the field, but there was not found an help meet for Adam.

Then Gen 2:21-22 says God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, took one of his ribs, closed up the flesh, and made woman.

But this is not a contradiction of Gen 1. I do not believe Gen 2 is written in chronological order like Gen. 1. Gen 1 mentions the first day, second day, and so forth. So it is describing the order of creation.

Gen 2 is supplying further detail about God's creation, but not necessarily in chronological order. I believe the fowl for instance were created on the fifth day in Gen 1, when they are mentioned after Adam in Gen 2. Then sometime later, and there is no way to know for certain how long that period is, God brought the fowl to Adam to name. And I don't think you can say it was animals and fowl in the garden only, in Gen 2:20 it says "all" the beasts of the field.

Bro. Parrish 03-16-2009 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winman (Post 16914)
Bro. Parrish, this isn't creation here. The primary definitions of "prepared" in both verses is

1) to count, reckon, number, assign, tell, appoint, prepare

I believe the meaning here would be to assign or appoint. So God spoke to the whale and the worm and gave them assignments. That's how I see it anyway.

LOL, well that's not the way I see it but you may be right!
That's why I specifically wrote "special creatures that God MAY have "whipped up" or "specially made." (see post no. 30)

However let's keep an open mind for a moment...

The Bible does not say God "spoke" to those creatures.
The Bible does not say God "assigned" anything.
The Bible does not say God "appointed" anything.

Those are your words, not the superior wording in the KJV bible.
Here's an old tip I learned along time ago; always determine what it SAYS before you try to determine what it MEANS, brother.

The Bible says God PREPARED those creatures!

Try this brother Winman:
Go ask a group of 10 year olds what it means to PREPARE a hamburger. :)

See how many come back and talk about "assigning" or "appointing" the hamburger."

See how many come back and say "count, reckon, number, assign, or tell" the hamburger. Even a 10 year old would know what the word means.

I think Luke is 100% correct on the Genesis passages.
God had the "formula" for making all the animals, he already made them out of WATER once. This time he did not need to make them "male and female" He only had to make one of each and they were FORMED out of the GROUND at what is clearly a different time. I'm not saying the naming event took place in a day, I agree with you that it could have been longer. But it is CLEARLY not the same time as the creation with water. Argue on if you want, but it won't change what is written in plain English brother. And with all the animals accounted for it seems we may be straining at gnats. :)

Winman 03-16-2009 04:48 PM

Bro. Parrish

You make some good points. Maybe my problem is that I was a Boy Scout, and our motto was "Be Prepared". And I tell you, that motto has truly helped me throughout my life. :)

Now, in this case, prepared means to be ready at all times for any situation that might occur.

And I read prepared in Jonah the same way. God had sent that whale and worm to be at that given place at that given time. Now, I don't know how God communicated with these animals, so that is why I said "spoke". However God did it, the whale and the worm got the message and were there to get the job done. I grew up on the ocean, and you don't see whales that often. But there was one right there when they threw Jonah overboard. And it's a good thing, Jonah most likely would have drowned.

Bro. Parrish 03-16-2009 08:52 PM

The Boy Scouts are a good group, you can learn a lot from them.
As for Jonah, I always figured he did drown inside the creature, because he died and went to hell. Otherwise he could not be the type of Christ's death, burial and resurrection in the OT.
Of course, that too is debatable.


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