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Will Kinney 12-07-2008 07:12 AM

1 John 5:7
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611 (Post 12696)
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't the 1611 edition of the KJB have the Comma in italics? :rolleyes:

Hi brother. No, it wasn't in italics.

Hopefully you can see it here:

http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en...lation=kja&oq=

The Nelson reprint, including original printing errors, also has it not in italics.

Aparte de eso, estoy de acuerdo contigo, hermano Manny. La Biblia King James es el estandard perfecto, pero Dios bien puede usar traducciones basadas en los mismos textos y con el mismo sentido para comunicar Su palabra.;)

Will K

MC1171611 12-07-2008 08:05 AM

Lo siento, hermano.

Estoy de acuerdo con usted acerca la Biblia. Aunque la Biblia King James es el perfecto y es dado por inspiration del Dios, El puede usar lo qué quiere. Para instancia, la Biblia Reina Valera corecta la gramática de la lengua Castillano en 2 Corinthios 5:17 por decir "nuevo creatura ES" en vez de "esta."

Gracias al Señor para su Palabras Buenas en Inglés e Castillano!

Excuse my Spanish; it's terrible, but I'm working on it!

Will Kinney 12-07-2008 06:33 PM

What about other languages
 
Hi brother. Your Spanish is not too bad. Some mistakes but it is understandable. As you may know, I am a high school Spanish teacher and I love the Spanish language. It is a lot of fun.

Anyway, here are parts of an response I made to the question What about other languages. Some may have seen it before, but for those who have not, here is how I understand this important issue.

If the King James Bible in English is the perfect words of God, then What About Other Languages?

I am frequently asked this question by other Christians who do not believe the King James Bible or any bible is now the inerrant words of God.

I finally decided to put a concise answer together to respond to this common question. Here it is.

Hi brother and sister......, this is a good question but not at all hard to answer if you think about it. God never promised to give every nation or every individual a perfect Bible. It certainly never turned out this way in history, did it?

In fact, for the first 3000 to 4000 years of recorded history, there was only one nation on earth that had the true words of God. "He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation, and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD." Psalm 147:19-20.

Now that the gospel is going out to the nations, the only promise from God we have is that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14

The gospel of salvation through the substitutionary death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is found in any bible in any language it has been translated into, no matter how poorly or partially done it may be. God can and does use other bible versions, partial translations, or just simple gospel tracts to bring His people to faith in Christ. I do not deny but strongly affirm this to be true.

But that does not make these other partial translations, bible tracts or versions the perfect words of God. There has to be at least one perfect Bible in this world that serves as the Final Authority and Standard by which all others are measured.

It certainly does not exist in the Hebrew or the Greek. There is no "the Hebrew" and much less is there "the" Greek. Besides, once a complete Bible is put together, there has to be a translation of some kind in order to put both the Old and New Testaments into one language. Since God has promised to preserve His WORDS (not just the general, ballpark approximation) in the book of the LORD, this book must exist somewhere.

All the evidence points to the King James Bible as being that book for the last almost 400 years. It was the KJB that was used by English and American missionaries to carry to gospel to the nations in the greatest missionary movement in history. It was the KJB that was carried out into space and read from.

I believe in the sovereignty of God in history. "For the kingdom is the LORD'S; and He is the governor among the nations." Psalm 22:28. God has set His mark upon many things in this world that reveal His Divine hand at work in history. Why do we use the 7 day week instead of the 10 day week? Why are dates either B.C. (Before Christ) or A.D. (Anno Domini - year of our Lord)? (although the secular world is now trying in vain to change this too to BCE and CE.) England just "happens to be" the one nation from which we measure the true Time (Greenwich time, zero hour) and from which we measure true Position, zero longitude. In 1611 the English language was spoken by a mere 3% of the world's population, but today English has become the closest thing to a universal language in history. God knew He would use England, its language and the King James Bible to accomplish all these things long before they happened.

Today it is only the King James Bible believer who boldly maintains that there really is an inerrant, complete and 100% true Holy Bible on this earth that a person can actually hold it in his hands and read and believe every word. All modern version proponents deny that any tangible, “hold it in your hands and read Bible” IS now the inerrant words of God.

God only holds us accountable for the light He has been pleased to give us. To whom much is given, from him shall much be required - "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48. God has given to the English speaking people His perfect words in the King James Bible. We will be held far more accountable for what we have done with this Book than any other people.

To the degree that foreign language bible versions follow the same underlying Hebrew and Greek texts, and to the degree that their individual translations match those found in the King James Bible, to that degree they can be considered to be the true words of God. To the degree that they depart from both the texts and meanings found in the KJB, to that degree they are corrupt and inferiour.

I do not believe that every foreigner in non-English speaking countries needs to learn the English language and read the King James Bible. Salvation through faith in the substitutionary death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is not only found the King James Bible. If there are several different versions in their own native language (Spanish, German, Russian, Chinese, or whatever), then I would recommend they use the one that most closely follows the same Hebrew and Greek texts that underlie the King James Bible. If they only have a translation based on the ever changing, modern Critical Texts, then they should thank God for what they do have and use it.


This is how I see it and what I believe. Not a difficult question at all.

In contrast to the KJB believer's views, the multiple choice, contradictory meanings, and "different, omitted, added, or made up underlying texts" proponent has no Final Written Authority or Standard by which all others are to be judged, and he has no inspired, inerrant and 100% true Bible to give or recommend to anyone.

By His grace, accepted in the Beloved,

Will Kinney

Steven Avery 12-08-2008 06:17 AM

Johannine Comma - King James Bible - full text
 
Hi Folks,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Kinney
Hi brother. No, it wasn't in italics.Hopefully you can see it here: http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en...lation=kja&oq=
The Nelson reprint, including original printing errors, also has it not in italics.

And you usually can see it here, although this AM the picture is not coming up.

http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti...ePosition=1483

By the second half of the 1500's the Johannine Comma was in use in Reformation confessions, including the Belgic Confession and the Scottish Confession of Faith. The earlier issues with the first two Erasmus editions and his correspondence with Stunica and Lee and with Luther had little residual effect on the view of the Johannine Comma. The Geneva and the Bishops and the King James Bible all included the Johannine Comma in full undifferentiated text. And Lancelot Andrewes, KJB translators, references the Comma in his sermons (almost surely others as well, however we do not have that much easily available today). The period of the main debate came later, beginning late in the 1600's, and is a fascinating study.

Shalom,
Steven

MC1171611 12-08-2008 07:17 AM

I just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't arguing; I fully believe that God intended for the Comma to be in there and that any "Bible" that doesn't have it or throws doubt upon it is a perversion without equivocation. I just thought that since it was a minority clause at the time, it might have been placed in italics, but from what I remember, they pulled it from the Vulgate (forgive me if I'm off here again :confused: ) so there was an explanation for its inclusion. Again, sorry for the confusion.

Will Kinney 12-08-2008 07:45 AM

1 John 5:7
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611 (Post 12727)
I just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't arguing; I fully believe that God intended for the Comma to be in there and that any "Bible" that doesn't have it or throws doubt upon it is a perversion without equivocation. I just thought that since it was a minority clause at the time, it might have been placed in italics, but from what I remember, they pulled it from the Vulgate (forgive me if I'm off here again :confused: ) so there was an explanation for its inclusion. Again, sorry for the confusion.

Hi brother. If you are interested, here is some more information on this verse.

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/1John5-7.html

Steven Avery knows a lot about the history of this verse which he may want to add too, or he can direct you to other good links. There is a lot of history and evidence behind the inclusion of this verse.

God bless,

Will K

Steven Avery 12-08-2008 08:50 AM

Hi Folks,

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611
any "Bible" that doesn't have it or throws doubt upon it is a perversion without equivocation.

My language on the pre-Geneva & Bishops English Bibles would be softer :). Simply that their qualification was errant, wrong, and then corrected in the Geneva and King James Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611
I just thought that since it was a minority clause at the time, it might have been placed in italics,

Remember the quintessential Greek minority clause is Acts 8:37, never, afaik, placed in italics in the pure English Bible line. So the issue is not really "minority" (that would more likely be a margin note, if anything). However if preservation was almost entirely in the Latin line italics might be possible, but not mandated, and in fact the Johannine Comma preservation was primarily Latin. So overall you would have to do a bit of an italics study. Clearly the King James Bible translators correctly did not think either special print or a margin note about manuscripts was warranted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611
but from what I remember, they pulled it from the Vulgate (forgive me if I'm off here again :confused: ) so there was an explanation for its inclusion. Again, sorry for the confusion.

The King James Bible translators were principally following the Greek Received Text manuscripts of Beza and Stephanus, which had the Johannine Comma fully included. The claim might be made that Erasmus "pulled it from the Vulgate and Old Latin" but that would have all sorts of nuances in analysis as to the actual words in the text, something that Michael Maynard addresses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Kinney
There is a lot of history and evidence behind the inclusion of this verse.

We hope to make a lot more clearly available in the near future, including my fav, more about the history of the Vulgate Prologue to the Canonical Epistles, one of the more fascinating evidences. You can learn a ton about Bible history simply by researching the Johannine Comma.

One of the ironies you will find is that the Reformation textual giants (including Erasmus, Stephanus and Beza) had a lot more respect for Latin writers and sources (early church writers, confessions, the Speculum, the Old Latin and the Vulgate) than comes forth today. Both from TR/KJB attackers and even from many KJB defenders. Even while holding the Greek as the fountainhead they were well aware that some deficiencies, especially omissions, had occurred within the Greek line. Their work was a beautiful synthesis of God's Scriptural sources brought into the pure Reformation Bible, which itself was purified throughout the early 1500's by men of great skill and insight.

Personally I do not think you can have a full-orbed exposition of King James Bible history without learning and teaching about the Reformation Bible. From that standpoint you begin to understand the victory over the Vulgate, which had a number of Latin errors and corruptions partially inspired by the wrong decisions made in 380 AD, and also the counter-reformation efforts to try to deceive with the far more corrupt alexandrian text in the late 1800s. This modern version text is so deficient and corrupt (even more so in its Greek sources than the smoothed-over English available) that it makes the Vulgate shine by comparison ! Thus it helps the King James Bible defender to seek a fuller view than simply "2 lines" and really try to understand the beautiful and powerful and accurate scholarship brought forth in the Reformation. Amazing stuff.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Gord 12-09-2008 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 12731)
.... Amazing stuff.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

Thank you this truly is wonderful study.

PeterAV 12-12-2008 12:46 PM

Brother Cob has a wonderful ministry at BBTI.
I would have been there in a shot had it not been for the "Independent Baptist member" pre-requisite.
He also chooses both the AV and the underlining texts.
BBTI's method is very good.
But, the only problem is this.
To learn a language takes years and years.
This means learning the nuances of the people and their idioms, etc.
All the grammar they have and the like. Lifestyle...
On the average, to transslate a Bible into any given language and do it a service, would take a couple decades to say the least.
But with ESL it takes 5 years at the most, and then they can learn the English with all of IT's idioms and grammar.
The locals simply put their children into the ESL children's course, while the adults have their own as well.
It is easy to have a whole generation learn English in less than ten years if logistics were available with financial support.

PB1789 12-15-2008 01:52 AM

Great Post!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny Rodriguez (Post 12570)
As a Missionary to a non-english speaking people, I strongly disagree. You are out of touch with reality if you really believe that. There are thousands of language groups in this world. Most of which live in 3rd would countries where education is not very good. Some language groups in this world are simply not going to learn English and that is a fact and reality. Some will REFUSE to learn English because they are proud of their language, and if God calls you to minister to such people, the only way you are going to reach them is through THEIR language not yours. God has not called you to Americanize or Anglicize them but to evangelize them.

Besides, even if you COULD teach everyone English, the time, money, energy, and resources spent teaching them English could have very well been used to give them the words of God in their language. Outside of the Gospel itself, there is no greater gift you can give to a foreign people than the word of God in their own language.

Almost every pioneer Missionary to we read about and uphold today as heroes of the faith were involved in translating the word of God into the language of the people the minister to. Only in this day and age of apostacy and APETHY do you find a de-emphasis of translating the word of God into foreign languages.

Excellent Post/Points Manny !! Good for you and those Gents at William Carey Society for trying to do what our Lord Jesus said in Matthew 28. Reach them in the language that they learned at home from their momma.

:amen:

Biblestudent 12-15-2008 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Kinney (Post 12715)
As you may know, I am a high school Spanish teacher and I love the Spanish language. It is a lot of fun.

When I got to college, Spanish ceased to be taught as a required course. Our language they say is close to Spanish. Unfortunately, I don't even know much about which of our words came from Spanish!:sad:

Mitex 01-03-2009 04:05 PM

Greeting to each of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is a link that explain how the word of God is recognized in any language:

http://www.preachinginpoland.com/Recognize.htm

I would have pasted it here, but thought it might be too long.

I have been preaching the gospel in Mexico (10 years) and Poland (13+ years) and have unique insights into the Bible issue in foreign languages. Food for thought:

1) Whatever principles lead us to believe the AV is the word of God in English should, must and are used by born again spirit filled Christians in other lands speaking other languages.

2) Remember there was no fight with God given Bibles in foreign languages prior to 1881. Since then even AV Bible believers have become Bible critics.

3) Any type of doctrine about "preservation" must give valid examples of how this works i.e. how does "preservation" jump from one language to another? The Greek and Hebrew Scriptures did not suddenly stop being "the Scriptures" when translated into other languages. The word of God existed PRIOR to 1611 and AFTER 1611. The word of God is not limited to "one language". Each major language has the word of God - the version that God wants them to have - recognized by the same principles that lead English believers to the Standard in English - the AV.

In Jesus' Name,

Brent Riggs
http://www.preachinginpoland.com

Daniel Haifley 03-25-2009 09:17 AM

William Carey Bible Society
 
I just found your forum, and I'm quite interested in the comments surrounding the William Carey Bible Society. I am one of the members of the steering commitee for the society, and we are definitely, without apology, Bible believers.
You might also find it interesting to note that each one of us have differing angles and opinions about the whole Bible translation issue. One gentleman was quick to point out that based on our doctrinal statement we were TR men. Might I suggest, that we be less hasty to judgement and quicker to get to the truth. I am an avid KJV supporter. I believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the scriptures. I also believe that God is not limited to one language (English is not the language of heaven-Americans are not the chosen). He can inspire in 18 languages at one time -if He so chooses, ie. Acts 2.
The more I study -the more convinced I am that God is bigger than any of our little boxes. He cannot be confined to our theories. We should spend more time learning of Him and about Him than comparing ourselves among ourselves. We can do this with a free exchange of ideas. The problem is everyone is afraid to say what they really think, because the brethren are quick to stone one who does not quite fit the "party line." Last I checked we called ourselves INDEPENDANT Baptists. We have One mediator. We don't believe in a pope or hierchy. At least that is what we tell people.
Your thoughts?

Will Kinney 03-25-2009 06:41 PM

Preserved words of God, inerrant Bible?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Haifley (Post 17382)
I am an avid KJV supporter. I believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the scriptures. I also believe that God is not limited to one language (English is not the language of heaven-Americans are not the chosen). He can inspire in 18 languages at one time -if He so chooses, ie. Acts 2.

Hi Daniel. I agree with you that God COULD inspire His word in 18 languages. However, do you know of any other language where He has done so? If you really believe the King James Bible is the inspired and inerrant words of God, do you honestly know of any other Bible in any other language that is also the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God? If so, could you please tell us where we can find such a copy and so be able to compare it to what we have in the King James Bible.

Otherwise it seems to me that your are fudging the definitions of complete, verbal and inerrant. I agree that the simple gospel can be found in any bible in any language that is out there in the world. But this does not make them the complete and inerrant words of God. Inspiration and inerrancy go far beyond just the few words about the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour as preached in Acts 2.

Thank you for your thoughts,

Will K

George 03-25-2009 09:06 PM

Re: "The William Carey Bible Society"
 
Aloha Mitex & Daniel Haifley,

There are not many Bible believers on this Forum that would insist that God's word should not be translated into other languages, or deny that there are several (older) Bible translations out there that contain the word of God. {Quite a few of us pray for and support brother John Hinton's efforts to produce Bibles in other languages.}

My claim is that God has only ONE FINAL AUTHORITY or ONE FINAL STANDARD "BIBLE" and it's NOT 5,500 Greek Manuscripts with the numerous Greek Texts; and it's NOT the various Hebrew texts that are now in existence.

I believe that the King James Bible is God's FINAL AUTHORITY on earth (inspired, perfect, Holy and without error), and if any translation (in any language) is in agreement with the words found therein, then those are the words of God, and if any translation DIFFERS with the words of the King James Bible (in any particular place), then that translation is in error wherever it differs from God's FINAL AUTHORITY.

I have posted elsewhere, the reason's for my belief in God's Final Authority if you care to check it out:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...78&postcount=1
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16032&postcount=33

Most of us on this Forum are NOT unreasonable, we just believe that God PRESERVED His Holy word in the King James Bible, and it is our FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice. {Brother Will Kinney's Post #54 briefly state's the attitude of most of the members of this Forum. If the King James Bible is NOT God's inspired, perfect, Holy, word of God on earth today - which Bible translation is?}

{Just a side note to Daniel Haifley: Not all of the members on this Forum are Independent Baptists. If you search the Forum Biographies - not many of us identify ourselves with a particular sect or denomination. We're all Christian brethren here, regardless of the church we may attend.} :)

bibleprotector 03-25-2009 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitex (Post 14009)
The Greek and Hebrew Scriptures did not suddenly stop being "the Scriptures" when translated into other languages. The word of God existed PRIOR to 1611 and AFTER 1611. The word of God is not limited to "one language". Each major language has the word of God - the version that God wants them to have - recognized by the same principles that lead English believers to the Standard in English - the AV.

The Greek and Hebrew Scriptures have not lost their status, but have lost their practicality as Scripture. Not many people know these languages, and they are not fit as common standards.

Moreover, there is no definitive standard in the Hebrew or Greek. Which variant in the Bomberg-Mesoretic tradition do we follow? Which TR, out of the many varying editions, do we follow?

The Word of God has not historically been limited to one language... but this is not strictly true: in the inspiration, each book was limited to the language it was written in, usually Hebrew for the OT, and Greek for the NT. Therefore, each autograph was limited to one language until copies were made that were translated.

Since we observe the world turning toward one language as common, it makes sense to have a standard Bible for all in that language.

Now, if we study textually, we see that the KJB has exactly the correct readings as are scattered in the original language evidence. If we study translationally, we see that the KJB has the very sense of the original being given in English. The KJB is the best Bible in the world, the most widespread and the most recognisable standard. More importantly, on detailed examination, it exhibits a level of perfection unattained in any other Bible Version or Translation. No other presentation of Scripture seems to distinguish the difference between "vail" and "veil", etc.

Therefore, the standard of the KJB is not limited to just the traditional English-speaking nations, but for all men who have English as a language they understand and use. And this is fitting, because we know that the KJB is accurate, unlike new, foreign or quasi-original works, about which we cannot be certain since there is some mystery covering them.

While having a Polish Bible that is fairly accurate has been acceptable, it would be far better for many reasons (including economics and learning) to have Poles learning English and then using the KJB than to foist upon them a potentially second-rate translation which, while might be good, is not the best.

Since the Scripture indicates one language prophetically in Isaiah 28:11 and Zephaniah 3:9, and since this is being prepared before the Millennium, we can quite rightly expect that God’s Word in the last days should be in one global language.

This means that the labours in making foreign translations, (which are barely being accomplished anyway), would rather but put, along with money, time and effort, into spreading the KJB and the English language to those folk. While some may speak against this cultural influence, and attempt to barricade people from this, it must be shown that such a view is actually one of hindering the Gospel.

“And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people” (Revelation 14:6). The ultimate way one Gospel is progressing throughout the world is where one Bible is made common for all and held as standard, despite what language is their “mother tongue”. (In Christ’s day, everyone was at least bi-lingual - see Pilate's superscription).

bibleprotector 03-25-2009 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Haifley (Post 17382)
I just found your forum, and I'm quite interested in the comments surrounding the William Carey Bible Society. I am one of the members of the steering commitee for the society, and we are definitely, without apology, Bible believers.

There is a distinction between being TRO and being more specifically KJBO. Edward Hills wrote that the KJB is an independent variety of the TR. It is, in fact, the final form of the Received Text.

TROs tend to allow for changes to the KJB, as well as promoting foreign translations. Invariably these translations do not even match the text of the KJB is specific places, perhaps because they are using Scrivener's Greek as standard rather than the KJB. This is probably because TROs see the original languages as more authoritative than English.

The problem with the TRO view is that it cannot properly answer how to determine a difference or variation between TR readings, and allows for differing translations.

Another problem is that TRO Bible study might mean going to the Greek and defining the Greek. For example, D. A. Waite talks about Greek words and interpreting the Scripture on that basis, rather than what the English says, and what the English means. This problem manifests itself in some of the definitions of the Defined KJV too.

David Cloud talks about the possibility of altering the English, which even Edward Hills suggested, but Hills also showed why it would not work, saying, "But in that case any version which we prepare today would be equally antiquated."

TROs often use jargon, such as "VPI" and "VPP". Sure, they might be avid "KJV supporters" (they tend to say "KJV" instead of KJB), but this support does not seem go so far as to encoruge Bible Colleges to teach English so that they might learn the Scripture better, etc. i.e. Greek studies continue, along with the aims for more translations.

In short, they view the Scripture as being primarily in the originals, and do not definitively believe that it is 100% perfect in the English. For example, D. A. Waite says that the KJB is accurate, but that it cannot present 100% what was in the originals because, according to him, it is impossible to get 100% of the sense from the originals into English.

This actually denies that every jot and tittle is pure and perfect in the KJB. Jots, we are told by some TROs, are in the Hebrew or Greek. But "jot" is an English word in the English Bible with an English meaning listed in an English dictionary!

Again, if the Scripture cannot be 100% in text and/or translation, then how can verses such as these following be true?

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Ro 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


It is therefore the work of Christ to order in His Church such ministries, offices and investments as are necessary and right, according to His working, to set about to provide in the earth His witness of true Scripture, and the furthering of the knowledge of it.

Unashamedly, I say that we had rather have one standard, according to Isaiah’s prophecies (e.g. 59:19), than to have what the Dean Burgon Society labours to attain, which is thousands of translations to every tribe and dialect, rather than conformity to one standard for all, made common, and proved to be true.

I find that David Livingston taught the brightest and most zealous natives English, and that they would be set to be the future spiritual leaders. I find that in Australia, the Aborigines were taught English, and it took until 2007 for a complete Bible (a modern version) to be made in just one of their dialects. I say that the aims of Richard Hakluyt, Oliver Cromwell and others were higher, and that the William Carey Bible Society is viewing things with the limitations of the nineteenth century, rather than having the nineteenth century truth advancing for all.

And was there not in addition something muscularly Christian about the language that was spoken? (Dean Trench was quite certain that there was.) Might it not be that making an inventory of the language, and by so doing asserting and underlining its greatness, would not just help the English language around the globe? By thus extending its usefulness and ubiquity it would not only spread English influence abroad, but spread the influence of the Church ... into the darkness of the ... world as well. -- Simon Winchester, 2004, The Meaning of Everything, OUP.

drbible1611 03-27-2009 02:46 PM

While having a Polish Bible that is fairly accurate has been acceptable, it would be far better for many reasons (including economics and learning) to have Poles learning English and then using the KJB than to foist upon them a potentially second-rate translation which, while might be good, is not the best.

Agree 100%.

As mentioned on my other thread Bro Riggs has already fallen into the trap of changing EASTER (Wielka Noc) to PASSOVER.

Furthermore, the 'salvation' verses in the Gdanska Bible are word for word KJB and perfectly understandable.

Much deeper study would require learning English and using the KJB side by side with the Gdanska. Most young Poles can understand English.

He probably would have been better off doing a parallel Gdanska/KJB just like the Luther/KJB parallel Bible which is available from the Bible Bookstore.

tonybones2112 03-28-2009 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitex (Post 14009)
Greeting to each of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is a link that explain how the word of God is recognized in any language:

http://www.preachinginpoland.com/Recognize.htm

I would have pasted it here, but thought it might be too long.

I have been preaching the gospel in Mexico (10 years) and Poland (13+ years) and have unique insights into the Bible issue in foreign languages. Food for thought:

1) Whatever principles lead us to believe the AV is the word of God in English should, must and are used by born again spirit filled Christians in other lands speaking other languages.

2) Remember there was no fight with God given Bibles in foreign languages prior to 1881. Since then even AV Bible believers have become Bible critics.

3) Any type of doctrine about "preservation" must give valid examples of how this works i.e. how does "preservation" jump from one language to another? The Greek and Hebrew Scriptures did not suddenly stop being "the Scriptures" when translated into other languages. The word of God existed PRIOR to 1611 and AFTER 1611. The word of God is not limited to "one language". Each major language has the word of God - the version that God wants them to have - recognized by the same principles that lead English believers to the Standard in English - the AV.

In Jesus' Name,

Brent Riggs
http://www.preachinginpoland.com

I support Manny and Brett(Mitex) on this thread. I’ve seen Scripture quoted out of context, wrongly divided (O.T. prophecy to Israel applied to the Body of Christ), and private interpretation of Scripture applied to support an unbiblical and extra-biblical precept that borders on British Israelism, namely, the binding of the words of God to one language that emulates (Gal. 5:20) the Roman Catholic Church confining their cheap counterfeit of the Bible to Latin for 1700 years and the Islamic teaching that their word of God (the Koran) be confined to Arabic.
I think we all need to sit back and re-examine just exactly what we are saying, we need to illuminate the ideological contentions in this thread with the light of Scripture to let us see what we are saying because this forum is not observed by members only but a great many guests, Christian and non.

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Are the Scriptures we believe the opinions of man or the words of God? The matter is one of final authority and wielding that authority, using that sword of the Spirit, is effective in how deep are our thrusts in service to God or too ourselves. The same sword we use to vanquish the devices of Satan has another edge that can come right back around and slash us. A surgeon is useless without a scalpel. He can take that scalpel and save a life out of service to another or take a life out of selfish interest.

1co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
I think Manny and Brett have been ill used in this thread with little charity from the heart, the majority of that charity being eye-service and not from the heart. Their call to celebrate with them and share the blessing and joy of saved souls in other lands has been turned into a stone that some of us can grind our axes against. No matter how kind our responses, no matter how much we have been Christian gentleman, the motive remains the same: a private interpretation of Scripture wrested out of context. If we can lay aside our quasi-British Israelite fury in thinking we can convert the whole earth to the English language without smart bombs and aircraft carriers, if I can squelch the sudden urge to jump up and practice my goose step, I have a few specific questions I’d like to address based on the Scripture below:

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1.-I want to know why you people are forbidding these men from their translation work that I discern they have been called by God to do( and not Satan) leading to the subsequent damnation of the souls they care about, and subsequent loss of rewards for both them and you?
2.-Why are you people impeding these men’s (to me) God called desire to “interpret” God’s words into other “tongues” of nations embalmed in Roman Catholicism and starved for the truth?(Amos 8-11)
3-Whose commandments are found in both letters to the Corinthians?

1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
One of my favorite verses in the Scriptures is in my signature. Imagine God’s words as a boomerang. He tosses it out there and each and every word He has ever spoke comes right back to Him, with souls attached to it. He casts His net into the sea and brings out fish. Am I wrong? Does he want gold or crude oil? Does He need one of the new 128-bit PCs on the horizon with Windows 7?
Paul’s discourse on “tongues” and “unknown tongues” mean more than just the supernatural gift and sign of an Apostle to speak in a language to witness to Jews, it has an application to us today in not speaking the words of God in an unknown language to the hearers. The Catholic Church disobeyed God for 1700 years in making Goths and Huns and Franks hear only what they said were Gods words and in an unknown language (Latin) to them.
I’m not ignorant of Satan’s devices. It’s going to be interesting to see at The White Throne Judgement how many Jesuits under oath there were in the KJO movement transposing their “Latin only” myth over now and making it into an “English only” myth. It only takes one neutron to trigger a nuclear explosion, it only take one lie to stain many truths. Question 4 is even more interesting, it’s multiple choice:
4. Who lead these men into this work? Was it (a.)God, (b)the deception of Satan, or (c)their own flesh edifying and glorifying itself?

“English is the world language, the air traffic controllers in Red China speak English…” and the rest of 1 billion Red Chinese don’t.
5. Are only Red Chinese air traffic controllers in Red China going to be saved?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector (Post 17436)
Since the Scripture indicates one language prophetically in Isaiah 28:11 and Zephaniah 3:9, and since this is being prepared before the Millennium, we can quite rightly expect that God’s Word in the last days should be in one global language.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

Well brother, your expectation is in vain, because the Scripture you cite is strictly to Israel and not the Body of Christ, unless you believe the Body of Christ is the “New Israel”? Just as water baptism is the “New Circumcision” and Sunday is the “New Sabbath”?

Let’s do a little expository Bible study:

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people(Israel).
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest(The Millenium) wherewith ye may cause the weary(Israel) to rest; and this is the refreshing(The Millenium): yet they(Isreal) would not hear.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(Israel); and yet for all that will they(Israel) not hear me, saith the Lord.
Zeph. 3:9 For then will I turn to the people(Isreal) a pure language, that they(Israel) may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

Friends, I seem to remember once when the peoples of the whole earth spoke one language:

Gen. 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Gen. 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Yea, the whole world was of one language and united, united behind one goal with “one consent”: Rebellion against God. So I better get as many surplus weather balloons as I can and stuff them to the gills with McGuffeys Readers and float them towards Cuba, North Korea, and Iran as fast as I can.

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Would to God we had Paul with us today, all we are left with are the Mannys and the Bretts who desire to interpret the pure words of God, found in the pure word of God preserved in English, the KJV, to the best of their ability to people of many tongues and nations. I’m persuaded in both my mind and heart are they doing God’s work, and have yet to see any Scriptural roadblocks to their doing just that. I’ve made that judgment and believe it’s a righteous judgment.

Acts 16: 16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Paul, Silas, Luke, Timothy, Lydia, and other Christians were on their way to prayer when a devil-possessed woman followed them, amening to their faith and it’s doctrines. Not wanting the gospel of Christ to be associated with occultic practices of Satan, Paul, using the power of the Lord, cast the devil out.
Here we sit in the Pauline age of Grace with clear commandments of the Lord on preaching the gospel of Christ and teaching the Scriptures to those who speak and understand “unknown tongues” that we don’t speak or understand, to “interpret” the gospel and the Scriptures.
My final question is this: Are we going to aid Manny and Brett or are we going to let the doctrine of devils of Islamic and Catholic elitism cause us to follow them, shouting, “You can have the pure words of God but not in your own language”?

Read Genesis 11 like I did friends, and see if the Spirit of God said the same things to you He did to me, which is contained in this message reply.

Grace and peace.

Tony

Will Kinney 03-28-2009 07:09 AM

How many complete, inspired and inerrant Bibles are there?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 17504)
Would to God we had Paul with us today, all we are left with are the Mannys and the Bretts who desire to interpret the pure words of God, found in the pure word of God preserved in English, the KJV, to the best of their ability to people of many tongues and nations. I’m persuaded in both my mind and heart are they doing God’s work, and have yet to see any Scriptural roadblocks to their doing just that.
Grace and peace.

Tony

Hi Tony. This is just my own opinion, but in the main I am in agreement with you. I applaud the efforts of such brethren to take the gospel to the far ends of the earth. My wife and I also support missionaries in foreign lands. I do not at all believe one must learn English or be a King James Bible onlyist in order to get saved and grow in Christ.

However, where I do have a disagreement is when other brothers who use foreign language Bibles (Spanish, Polish, French, German, Swahili or whatever) try to make the claim that these other foreign language Bibles are also the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God, just like the King James Bible is. They are not; at least, I have never seen one yet that is. Some of them can be quite good and God can definitely use them to save souls; but that does not mean they are the 100% pure and preserved "Book of the LORD".

I have posted this before, (sorry for the repetition) but I still hold to this position.

If the King James Bible in English is the perfect words of God, then What About Other Languages?


This is a good question but not at all hard to answer if you think about it. God never promised to give every nation or every individual a perfect Bible. It certainly never turned out this way in history, did it?

In fact, for the first 3000 to 4000 years of recorded history, there was only one nation on earth that had the true words of God. "He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation, and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD." Psalm 147:19-20.

Now that the gospel is going out to the nations, the only promise from God we have is that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14

The gospel of salvation through the substitutionary death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is found in any bible in any language it has been translated into, no matter how poorly or partially done it may be. God can and does use other bible versions, partial translations, or just simple gospel tracts to bring His people to faith in Christ. I do not deny but strongly affirm this to be true.

But that does not make these other partial translations, bible tracts or versions the perfect words of God. There has to be at least one perfect Bible in this world that serves as the Final Authority and Standard by which all others are measured.

It certainly does not exist in the Hebrew or the Greek. There is no "the Hebrew" and much less is there "the" Greek. Besides, once a complete Bible is put together, there has to be a translation of some kind in order to put both the Old and New Testaments into one language. Since God has promised to preserve His WORDS (not just the general, ballpark approximation) in the book of the LORD, this book must exist somewhere.

All the evidence points to the King James Bible as being that book for the last almost 400 years. It was the KJB that was used by English and American missionaries to carry to gospel to the nations in the greatest missionary movement in history. It was the KJB that was carried out into space and read from.

I believe in the sovereignty of God in history. "For the kingdom is the LORD'S; and He is the governor among the nations." Psalm 22:28. God has set His mark upon many things in this world that reveal His Divine hand at work in history. Why do we use the 7 day week instead of the 10 day week? Why are dates either B.C. (Before Christ) or A.D. (Anno Domini - year of our Lord)? (although the secular world is now trying in vain to change this too to BCE and CE.) England just "happens to be" the one nation from which we measure the true Time (Greenwich time, zero hour) and from which we measure true Position, zero longitude. In 1611 the English language was spoken by a mere 3% of the world's population, but today English has become the closest thing to a universal language in history. God knew He would use England, its language and the King James Bible to accomplish all these things long before they happened.

Today it is only the King James Bible believer who boldly maintains that there really is an inerrant, complete and 100% true Holy Bible on this earth that a person can actually hold it in his hands and read and believe every word. All modern version proponents deny that any tangible, “hold it in your hands and read Bible” IS now the inerrant words of God.

God only holds us accountable for the light He has been pleased to give us. To whom much is given, from him shall much be required - "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48. God has given to the English speaking people His perfect words in the King James Bible. We will be held far more accountable for what we have done with this Book than any other people.

To the degree that foreign language bible versions follow the same underlying Hebrew and Greek texts, and to the degree that their individual translations match those found in the King James Bible, to that degree they can be considered to be the true words of God. To the degree that they depart from both the texts and meanings found in the KJB, to that degree they are corrupt and inferiour.

I do not believe that every foreigner in non-English speaking countries needs to learn the English language and read the King James Bible. Salvation through faith in the substitutionary death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is not only found the King James Bible. If there are several different versions in their own native language (Spanish, German, Russian, Chinese, or whatever), then I would recommend they use the one that most closely follows the same Hebrew and Greek texts that underlie the King James Bible. If they only have a translation based on the ever changing, modern Critical Texts, then they should thank God for what they do have and use it.

Regarding the question of “Well, what about before 1611?” please see my article here:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/before1611.html

As for: “Can a Translation be inspired?” please see:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/transinsp.html

This is how I see it and what I believe. Not a difficult question at all.

In contrast to the KJB believer's views, the multiple choice, contradictory meanings, and "different, omitted, added, or made up underlying texts" proponent has no Final Written Authority or Standard by which all others are to be judged, and he has no inspired, inerrant and 100% true Bible to give or recommend to anyone.

By His grace, accepted in the Beloved,

Will Kinney

bibleprotector 03-28-2009 07:31 AM

I believe that the Scripture indicates the proper view regarding the KJB in the end times. That the KJB should be exalted seems to be a good thing, after all, Psalm 56 talks about praising God’s Word, and Isaiah 42:21 says, “The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.”
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
O.T. prophecy to Israel applied to the Body of Christ

But the OT, when spiritually applied. is for the Church, as Romans 15:4 states, “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.”
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
we need to illuminate the ideological contentions in this thread with the light of Scripture to let us see what we are saying because this forum is not observed by members only but a great many guests, Christian and non.

I do not think we should water down our doctrines just because they might be unpopular in the eyes of Leftists etc. We should be zealous, and speak with conviction and clarity about what is right and good.

We believe the KJB is perfect. We believe that it is the best anyone in the world can have. We are not denying that the Scripture and the Gospel has been in other languages, but we seek to promote and allow for the best for all folk in all nations, which means having a common standard Bible. I believe that this is the basis of true Christian unity as opposed to having many versions as well as continuing to uphold many varying translations.

I would even go so far to suggest that when Christ said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” (Mt 10:34), that He was thinking about the Holy Ghost’s work with the KJB as a particular fulfilment of this prophecy, because we all know how divisive Satan has been in regards to the modern versionists against the steadfast stand for the KJB.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
1.-I want to know why you people are forbidding these men from their translation work that I discern they have been called by God to do( and not Satan) leading to the subsequent damnation of the souls they care about, and subsequent loss of rewards for both them and you?

The answer to that question can be given on the basis of this question: The Geneva Bible, was it of God, or of men?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
2.-Why are you people impeding these men’s (to me) God called desire to “interpret” God’s words into other “tongues” of nations embalmed in Roman Catholicism and starved for the truth?(Amos 8-11)

The answer to that accusation can be given on the basis of this question: Do KJBOs labour to ban the Geneva Bible?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
3-Whose commandments are found in both letters to the Corinthians?

1Cor. 14:21 says, “In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.” How will Gentiles speak to the Jews? At one time it was in the Greek language. But now most Jews know English. Also, this prophecy indicates that the Jews would continue to resist the Gospel in this present circumstance. However, we find that there are more prophecies in Scripture which build further. Clearly, God has been speaking with the use of the KJB to the Jews. Our expectation should be for the increase of this, not a decrease.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
The Catholic Church disobeyed God for 1700 years in making Goths and Huns and Franks hear only what they said were Gods words and in an unknown language (Latin) to them.

The Romanists are not just disobeying God, they were not God’s envoys, missionaries, representatives or ambassadors since the early centuries when the Roman Church went into perdition.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
how many Jesuits under oath there were in the KJO movement transposing their “Latin only” myth over now and making it into an “English only” myth.

If anyone actually believes that, then they might actually believe that all Protestants are Roman Catholics because, like Catholics, Protestants want to convert the world to their own religion. (E.g. cats have 4 legs, my dog has 4 legs, therefore my dog is a cat.)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
4. Who lead these men into this work? Was it (a.)God, (b)the deception of Satan, or (c)their own flesh edifying and glorifying itself?

I believe this is a foolish question.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
5. Are only Red Chinese air traffic controllers in Red China going to be saved?

Erasmus and Tyndale desired Turks and Saracens to be saved. Knowing English is not a prerequisite for salvation. However, it is quite useful to have the printing press as an aid to salvation. The English language is one of those things which has the greatest potential for the furtherest instruction of benighted souls.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
Read Genesis 11 like I did friends, and see if the Spirit of God said the same things to you He did to me, which is contained in this message reply.

First, Gen. 11:1 “And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.” This was the case with God's intention in creation. We should not attempt to form a doctrine which prohibits ONE LANGUAGE.

Second, God scattered people and languages as a judgment on sin. However, the advent of Abram in the end of this chapter is the portal by which this is reversed. (We are the children of Abraham, and the blessing is to all nations of the earth!)

Third, in the Millennial reign of Christ we see a one world kingdom. This is not bad, but good. Yet today, the idea of a one world kingdom means something bad. Now consider: if born again people are in the future using one language as common, this could not be bad like the antichrist kingdom, since,
a. they are good, godly, righteous people,
b. they are the same Church that Paul was part of,
c. they are doing so because it is part of God’s plan.

It seems to me that God, in His Divine Providence, has raised up the KJB and made the English language to be global so that the pure Word would be taught by the Christian advance of the best doctrines in one language as a witness to the world would actually work out to the confounding of evil and to those who mock Christianity because of divisions. What would do more to heal and bring unity than one true focus, namely, to have the very Word of God in English as the focus of all true believers in the whole earth before the return of Christ, so that we would be, “the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15b).

bibleprotector 03-28-2009 07:52 AM

It is very interesting to see how God has used the English-speaking nations of the world for His purpose. This has nothing to do with either British-Israelism or mere Jingoism.

Consider the Translators to the Reader at the beginning of the KJB, which proclaims,

“the people of England” and then, what we must conclude is a reference to the English Church, “For whereas it was the expectation of many, who wished not well unto our Sion, that upon the setting of that bright Occidental Star, Queen Elizabeth”, etc. And then, “there should be one more exact translation of the holy Scriptures into the English tongue”. And, “we shall be traduced by Popish Persons at home or abroad, who therefore will malign us, because we are poor instruments to make God’s holy Truth to be yet more and more known unto the people”.

Note that they call their English Church “Sion”, and speak about the progress of the English Scripture.

Here is a Puritan quote:

“Cromwell was full of patriotic pride. Once, when he was enumerating to Parliament the dangers which threatened the State, he wound up by saying that the enumeration should cause no despondency, ‘as truly I think it will not; for we are Englishmen: that is one good fact.’ ‘The English,’ he said on another occasion, ‘are a people that have been like other nations, sometimes up and sometimes down in our honour in the world, but never yet so low but we might measure with other nations.’ Several times in his speeches he termed the English ‘the best people in the world.’ Best, because ‘having the highest and clearest profession amongst them of the greatest glory — namely, religion.’ Best, because in the midst of the English people there was as it were another people, ‘a people that are to God as the apple of His eye,’ ‘His peculiar interest,’ ‘the people of God.’ ‘When I say the people of God,’ he explained, ‘I mean the large comprehension of them under the several forms of godliness in this nation’.” — Firth.

Here is a quote from Richard Hakluyt, made during the reign of Elizabeth,

“And therefore in seeking the Kingdom of God we are not only tied to the deep search of God’s sacred word and to live within the perfect limits of Christianity, but also by all means we are bound to multiply, and increase the flock of the faithful. ... God’s providence therein being considered who most mercifully saith by the mouth of his prophet, Esaias 66, I will come to gather all people and tongues, then shall they come and see my glory, of them that shall be saved. I will send some to the Gentiles in the sea and the isles far off that have not heard speak of me, and have not seen my glory, shall preach my peace among the Gentiles. [Paraphrase].

“And in this 65th Chapter he further saith, They seek me that hitherto have not asked for me, they find me that hitherto have not sought me. [Paraphrase].

“And again, Chapter 49, I will make ways upon all my mountains and my footpaths shall be exalted, and behold these shall come from far, some from the north and west, some from the land of Symis which is in the south. [Paraphrase].

“Then sith [since] it is so appointed that there shall be one shepherd and one flock, what hindereth us of England, (being by God’s mercy for the same purpose at this present most aptly prepared,) not to attempt that which God himself hath appointed to be performed, there is no doubt but that we of England are this saved people by the eternal and infallible presence of the Lord predestinated to be sent unto these Gentiles in the sea, to those isles and famous kingdoms there to preach the peace of the Lord, for are not we only set upon Mount Sion to give light to all the rest of the world, have not we the true handmaid [Queen Elizabeth the First] of the Lord to rule us, unto whom the eternal majesty of God hath revelled his truth and supreme power of excellency, by whom then shall the truth be preached, but by them unto whom the truth shall be revealed, it is only we therefore that must be these shining messengers of the Lord and none but we for as the prophet saith, O how beautiful are the feet of the messenger that bringeth the message from the mountain, that proclaimeth peace, that bringeth the good tidings and preacheth health and saith to Sion thy God is King. [Paraphrase].”

tonybones2112 03-28-2009 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector (Post 17512)
I believe that the Scripture indicates the proper view regarding the KJB in the end times. That the KJB should be exalted seems to be a good thing, after all, Psalm 56 talks about praising God’s Word, and Isaiah 42:21 says, “The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.”

I want to thank you for your reply to my message. My friend, I have a backlog of messages to the forum I need to deal with, plus an ill and disabled family member to care for. I'm not ignoring you if I take a few days answering you. I appreciate and respect your service for Christ and your positions and opinions. I am not tired of the combat for Christ, the spiritual war, I just appreciate this forum where I can reply with words seasoned with grace, that can edify my fellow soldiers, and return to God His words with many souls attached. I discern tempers can flare here, but we are individuals and interpret a message in different ways. I have an impulse to bare my claws if someone disagrees with me, I mute that here. I don;t think Brandon wants this to be the FFF, lol.

A great weekend to you and better week next week and always.

Grace and peace

Tony

drbible1611 03-28-2009 04:14 PM

"I do not at all believe one must learn English or be a King James Bible onlyist in order to get saved and grow in Christ".

Yes you are correct in what you say about salvation.

However, if you do not need to study the KJB to grow in Christ then one could surely make the same application to English translations as well.

I have yet to come across an NIV, NASB, NLT etc user who is straight on their doctrine.

Are we as KJB believers supposed to sit back and not help these folk grow in Christ?

I believe the same applies to those whose first language is not English.

Let me give you an example from the Gdanska Bible. In Job the Polish translators of 1632 have made a mess of LEVIATHAN therefore losing the cross reference to Satan.

So either Bro Riggs has to insert the word Leviathan or the Poles need to go to the Final Authority in ENGLISH. Unless like the NIV, NASB, NLT etc users they must miss out on some doctrinal truth.

Brother Tim 03-28-2009 05:16 PM

A child will grow eating food that is poor in nutrition, but he will not grow healthy. A believer may grow reading a modern version (the extent of that growth depends on many factors), but he will always be more stunted than if he had the "pure milk of the word".

George 03-29-2009 09:55 AM

Re: " The William Carey Bible Society"
 
Aloha brother Bones,

Although some of your comments may accurately describe some people on the Forum you need to be more specific as to who you are addressing:

Your quote:
Quote:

I think we all need to sit back and re-examine just exactly what we are saying, we need to illuminate the ideological contentions in this thread with the light of Scripture to let us see what we are saying because this forum is not observed by members only but a great many guests, Christian and non.”
WHO (on the Forum) are you addressing? ALL of us?

You said:
Quote:

I think Manny and Brett have been ill used in this thread with little charity from the heart, the majority of that charity being eye-service and not from the heart.”
Again Manny and Brett have been “ill used” by WHOM? Certainly not ALL of us!

You stated:
Quote:

1.-I want to know why you people are forbidding these men from their translation work that I discern they have been called by God to do( and not Satan) leading to the subsequent damnation of the souls they care about, and subsequent loss of rewards for both them and you?
WHO are the “you people” that are “forbidding”? I (for one) am NOT suggesting (for one moment) that they NOT translate God’s Holy words into another language.

You said:
Quote:

2.-Why are you people impeding these men’s (to me) God called desire to “interpret” God’s words into other “tongues” of nations embalmed in Roman Catholicism and starved for the truth?(Amos 8-11)
Again, WHO are the “you people” you are accusing of “impeding” these men? I’m not “impeding” anyone; I’ve said I support brother John Hinton’s translation work in other languages. Your criticisms are too broad – they encompass all of us on the Forum. We are NOT ALL guilty of those charges they you have laid on us ALL.

You stated:
Quote:

It’s going to be interesting to see at The White Throne Judgment how many Jesuits under oath there were in the KJO movement transposing their “Latin only” myth over now and making it into an “English only” myth.”
If by “English only myth”, you mean that God’s words CANNOT be found in other languages, or we are NOT to translate God’s words into other languages – I am in agreement with you. I can find NO PROHIBITION to translating God’s words into languages other than English; the $64,000,000.00 question is from what SOURCE are these translations being translated from – THE GREEK (which GREEK) - THE HEBREW? (which HEBREW)? Do you see the problem?

Has Scrivener’s TR now been elevated to Holy “perfection”? Is Scrivener’s TR perfect, Holy, and without error? Is Scrivener’s TR now “THE STANDARD” by which we are to judge ALL other translations? If it is, then I cannot “judge” other translations, since I cannot read, write, or understand Koine Greek!

If on the other Hand that you are claiming that there are other translations of the Bible (King James Bible) that are the FINAL AUTHORITY in ALL matters of faith and practice – what do we do when they DIFFER with the King James Bible? WHICH FINAL AUTHORITY is THE FINAL AUTHORITY?

It’s not a question of whether the words of God should be translated into other languages, or of forcing everyone to speak, write, read, and understand English; it’s a question of WHAT IS God’s FINAL AUTHORITATIVE BOOK (Bible) on earth? It would be unreasonable to PROHIBIT God’s words from being translated into languages other than English; but are there any translations of the Bible (a Book) that are perfect, Holy, infallible, and without error, other than the King James Bible?

John Hinton is at home in perhaps a dozen languages (or possibly more). He uses the King James Bible as his FINAL AUTHORITY when working on translating God’s words into other languages. He may search, refer, or consult Bibles in other languages (including “The Greek” & Hebrew texts), but his FINAL AUTHORITY in determining the wording of a translation (the words), is the English text of the King James Bible – NOT Scrivener’s Greek TR.

You stated:
Quote:

Well brother, your expectation is in vain, because the Scripture you cite is strictly to Israel and not the Body of Christ, unless you believe the Body of Christ is the “New Israel”? Just as water baptism is the “New Circumcision” and Sunday is the “New Sabbath”?”
WHO are you addressing? It can’t be ALL of us, because ALL of us don’t fit your description.

Your quote:
Quote:

My final question is this: Are we going to aid Manny and Brett or are we going to let the doctrine of devils of Islamic and Catholic elitism cause us to follow them, shouting, “You can have the pure words of God but not in your own language”?
I repeat what I said in an earlier Post: “There are not many Bible believers on this Forum that would insist that God's word should not be translated into other languages; or who would impede or prohibit other Christians from translating God's words into another language; or deny that there are several (older) Bible translations out there that contain the word of God.”

Let’s examine what “Mitex” said – shall we?

Quote:

“1) Whatever principles lead us to believe the AV is the word of God in English should, must and are used by born again spirit filled Christians in other lands speaking other languages.”
I Agree with the premise. But the question remains: Are there any translations (in any language other than English) of the Bible (a Book) that are perfect, Holy, infallible, and without error? If there are, can “Mitex” NAME ONE?

Quote:

“2) Remember there was no fight with God given Bibles in foreign languages prior to 1881. Since then even AV Bible believers have become Bible critics.”
Please cogitate on what “Mitex” just said! In 1881 genuine “Bible believers” became “bible critics” – NOT because Westcott & Hort were translating the Holy words of God into another language! Genuine “Bible believers” were upset and became ‘bible critics” because a NEW (exceedingly corrupt) ENGLISH VERSION (RV) was being foisted on an unsuspecting public; and was being touted as “so much better”, “so much clearer” and “much closer to the ‘Originals’ than the Authorized Version”! Translating the Scriptures into a language other than English was not in view, so why is “Mitex” using this as an example of the “bible critics” (today), who are critical of translating God’s words into another language, when there is no connection between the two?

Quote:

3) Any type of doctrine about "preservation" must give valid examples of how this works i.e. how does "preservation" jump from one language to another? The Greek and Hebrew Scriptures did not suddenly stop being "the Scriptures" when translated into other languages. The word of God existed PRIOR to 1611 and AFTER 1611. The word of God is not limited to "one language". Each major language has the word of God - the version that God wants them to have - recognized by the same principles that lead English believers to the Standard in English - the AV.”
In my Post #55 (this Thread), I thought I gave Mitex & Daniel Haifley 2 different Links as to “why I believe in the King James Bible”. The second link address was supposed to have taken them to another Post of mine where I laid out, what I believe those "principles" are, (which deals specifically with “Mitex’s” 3rd. point), but somehow I linked to the same Post twice. My second link was supposed to have taken them to: AV1611 Forums <> Bible Versions <> King James Only Controversy <> Post #33, but somehow I made a mistake (my goof!), and even though the Link address “looks different” it links to the same Post as my first link.

On February 28, 2009 I posted my essay on the different languages God chose to use to promulgate and disseminate His Holy words, and to who they were addressed, and why God chose each specific language. The following link is the correct Link to that essay.
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...2&postcount=33

I am not going to repeat the whole Post, but I will say that I believe that “Mitex” hasn’t asked the right question: “Any type of doctrine about "preservation" must give valid examples of how this works i.e. how does "preservation" jump from one language to another?Preservation has to do with God’s WORDS jumpingfrom one language to another” – NOT one “languagejumpingto another language”. It’s God’s WORDS that have been preserved for us in the King James Bible. God promised to preserve His WORDS [Psalm 12:6&7] NOT a language. It’s God’s WORDS that are INSPIRED” NOT a language! {That's exactly what most of the "scholars" are "hung up" on. They think that only the Hebrew & Greek LANGUAGES are INSPIRED!}

If we have God’s words – perfect, Holy, infallible, inspired, and without error in English in the King James Bible, WHY are some “scholars” continually going back to the Koine Greek (a dead language that no speaks anymore) to find out what God really said? If we have God’s words – perfect, Holy, infallible, inspired, and without error in English in the King James Bible, WHY are the same “scholars” going back to the Hebrew Texts (a language spoken by less than 1% of the people on earth) to find out what God really said?

If we have God’s words – perfect, Holy, infallible, inspired, and without error in English in the King James Bible, WHY are Bible translators using “The Greek” (whichever text they “prefer”) or “The Hebrew” (whichever text they “prefer”) to translate from, when God’s FINAL AUTHORITY is the English AV1611 – King James Bible? Do we really believe what we profess to believe?

By all means translate God’s words into all the languages in the world – I’m all for that, but what is the STANDARD text; what is the FINAL AUTHORITY that determines what words will be used to translate from? Do you see the problem? It’s one thing to check out “The Greek” or “The Hebrew”, or the earlier English translations for comparison; it’s quite another if any one of them become the STANDARD (like Scrivener’s Greek TR) for translating the Bible (a Book) into another language.

These comments are not meant to castigate you or “Mitex” or Daniel (and especially not brother Manny Rodriguez) in any way. My whole point is simply that it is not Scripturally sound for Christians to have “multiple authorities”; if the King James Bible is truly our FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice, then it should also be our FINAL AUTHORITY in translating God’s Holy words into another language – NOT “Scrivener’s “Greek TR”! If the King James Bible Is “good enough” for everything concerned with our faith and practice, then it should be “good enough” for translating purposes also. :)

Will Kinney 03-29-2009 11:49 AM

Hi brother George. Good points. I also really enjoyed reading your link to what you had previously said in #33. Very well put.

Gracias, y !Dios te bendiga!

Will Kinney

tonybones2112 03-30-2009 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Avery (Post 12653)
Hi Folks,

While the conversation is a bit heated, and would be nice to be toned down, there are two factual tweakings I'd like to make.

It is common to call the language of the OT Aramaic (sections in Daniel and Ezra) and the NT texts Syriac (eg. Peshitta and Old Syriac MSS). Even the OT Peshitta I think is called Aramaic while the NT Peshitta is called Syriac. With Aramaic possibly being a subset of Syriac in language theory, the terms do have a lot of overlap.

I'm not saying this necessarily is sensible, but it is scholarly language consensus and has nothing to do with e.g. recognizing the usage of Hebraisti == Hebrew in the NT. I can't see anything wrong with referring to "sections of Daniel and Ezra being in Aramaic" since that is what their Chaldee dialect is often called. Since Aramaic is used today, culturally in some lands as the main language, and by Orthodox Jews in studies and by Eastern Christians in their Bible text, there is no warrant to insist on banishing the word.

As for Scrivener's Greek text being an exact representation of the King James Bible, "exact" is a bit too strong. The Johannine Comma is not a counter-example, as Scrivener's italics was only in his Cambridge Paragraph Bible, a different work. However I have seen a couple of cases where English King James Bible information may not be in the Greek text. "Almost exact" - fine. The word "exact" is rarely applicable across languages.

Shalom,
Steven

I agree on the tone Steve. If I want to read heated arguments I'll join FFF.

I have copies of The Gsopels in Saxon and a NT Fragment in Goth. To me both are actually closer to Latin than anything.

On the street or in a hospital, someone's living room or a funeral home, we can't pack around 500 pounds of books on manuscript evidence. All we have is a Bible. We have the inspired word of God that brings saving faith, or we don't. The language(s) the NT was written in is not relevant to witnessing to the lost, we have is NOW, and that is all that matters.

Grace and peace to you.

Tony

tonybones2112 03-30-2009 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MC1171611 (Post 12696)
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't the 1611 edition of the KJB have the Comma in italics? :rolleyes:

Also, I'd be careful with Bro. Gomez' Bible...not only did he incorrectly and somewhat underhandedly use the Reina Valera name to apparently give his Bible more credibility, but he's also changed it multiple times as other Spanish-speaking missionaries and translators found error with it. One instance of error in the RVG (ugh!) is that he changed "salúd" in Psalms to "salvacíon." "Salúd" means "good health" or something along that line, while "salvacíon" means spiritual salvation. While at face value that seems to be a good change, remember that David thought his soul and his body were the same thing, and he had no idea that he needed spiritual "salvacíon." This is a blatant doctrinal error that would have never happened if they had stuck with the 1865 TRUE Reina Valera.

Both Luther and Erasmus rejected the Comma. Erasmus inserted it after a manuscript was given to him with it. It was added in the Luther Bible by a printer after his death.

I have a Bible program with a module for a Spanish Bible from the 1600s that follows the KJV pretty close.

Grace and peace:)

Tony

tonybones2112 03-30-2009 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Kinney (Post 17510)
Hi Tony. This is just my own opinion, but in the main I am in agreement with you. I applaud the efforts of such brethren to take the gospel to the far ends of the earth. My wife and I also support missionaries in foreign lands. I do not at all believe one must learn English or be a King James Bible onlyist in order to get saved and grow in Christ.

However, where I do have a disagreement is when other brothers who use foreign language Bibles (Spanish, Polish, French, German, Swahili or whatever) try to make the claim that these other foreign language Bibles are also the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God, just like the King James Bible is. They are not; at least, I have never seen one yet that is. Some of them can be quite good and God can definitely use them to save souls; but that does not mean they are the 100% pure and preserved "Book of the LORD".

I have posted this before, (sorry for the repetition) but I still hold to this position.

If the King James Bible in English is the perfect words of God, then What About Other Languages?


This is a good question but not at all hard to answer if you think about it. God never promised to give every nation or every individual a perfect Bible. It certainly never turned out this way in history, did it?

In fact, for the first 3000 to 4000 years of recorded history, there was only one nation on earth that had the true words of God. "He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation, and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD." Psalm 147:19-20.

Now that the gospel is going out to the nations, the only promise from God we have is that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14

The gospel of salvation through the substitutionary death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is found in any bible in any language it has been translated into, no matter how poorly or partially done it may be. God can and does use other bible versions, partial translations, or just simple gospel tracts to bring His people to faith in Christ. I do not deny but strongly affirm this to be true.

But that does not make these other partial translations, bible tracts or versions the perfect words of God. There has to be at least one perfect Bible in this world that serves as the Final Authority and Standard by which all others are measured.

It certainly does not exist in the Hebrew or the Greek. There is no "the Hebrew" and much less is there "the" Greek. Besides, once a complete Bible is put together, there has to be a translation of some kind in order to put both the Old and New Testaments into one language. Since God has promised to preserve His WORDS (not just the general, ballpark approximation) in the book of the LORD, this book must exist somewhere.

All the evidence points to the King James Bible as being that book for the last almost 400 years. It was the KJB that was used by English and American missionaries to carry to gospel to the nations in the greatest missionary movement in history. It was the KJB that was carried out into space and read from.

I believe in the sovereignty of God in history. "For the kingdom is the LORD'S; and He is the governor among the nations." Psalm 22:28. God has set His mark upon many things in this world that reveal His Divine hand at work in history. Why do we use the 7 day week instead of the 10 day week? Why are dates either B.C. (Before Christ) or A.D. (Anno Domini - year of our Lord)? (although the secular world is now trying in vain to change this too to BCE and CE.) England just "happens to be" the one nation from which we measure the true Time (Greenwich time, zero hour) and from which we measure true Position, zero longitude. In 1611 the English language was spoken by a mere 3% of the world's population, but today English has become the closest thing to a universal language in history. God knew He would use England, its language and the King James Bible to accomplish all these things long before they happened.

Today it is only the King James Bible believer who boldly maintains that there really is an inerrant, complete and 100% true Holy Bible on this earth that a person can actually hold it in his hands and read and believe every word. All modern version proponents deny that any tangible, “hold it in your hands and read Bible” IS now the inerrant words of God.

God only holds us accountable for the light He has been pleased to give us. To whom much is given, from him shall much be required - "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48. God has given to the English speaking people His perfect words in the King James Bible. We will be held far more accountable for what we have done with this Book than any other people.

To the degree that foreign language bible versions follow the same underlying Hebrew and Greek texts, and to the degree that their individual translations match those found in the King James Bible, to that degree they can be considered to be the true words of God. To the degree that they depart from both the texts and meanings found in the KJB, to that degree they are corrupt and inferiour.

I do not believe that every foreigner in non-English speaking countries needs to learn the English language and read the King James Bible. Salvation through faith in the substitutionary death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is not only found the King James Bible. If there are several different versions in their own native language (Spanish, German, Russian, Chinese, or whatever), then I would recommend they use the one that most closely follows the same Hebrew and Greek texts that underlie the King James Bible. If they only have a translation based on the ever changing, modern Critical Texts, then they should thank God for what they do have and use it.

Regarding the question of “Well, what about before 1611?” please see my article here:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/before1611.html

As for: “Can a Translation be inspired?” please see:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/transinsp.html

This is how I see it and what I believe. Not a difficult question at all.

In contrast to the KJB believer's views, the multiple choice, contradictory meanings, and "different, omitted, added, or made up underlying texts" proponent has no Final Written Authority or Standard by which all others are to be judged, and he has no inspired, inerrant and 100% true Bible to give or recommend to anyone.

By His grace, accepted in the Beloved,

Will Kinney

Will, for the purposes of the Scripture, there are 3: 1. Initail Revelation. 2. Propagation(copies) 3. It's use with believers and non-believers(Job 32:8. 3 is the reason they were given to us. God gave the canon for His words, we fight like dogs to propagate it, yet the inspiration in men to understand God is the rpime funsction right now. Doctrine is the #1 use for Scripture and it's purpose is our liason with God, through the Holy Ghost of God. I've had people object to that. I mean, does God need a copy of His words? I remember a tale of a US Army non-com spied for the Russians. He took pictures of maps showing Russian troop displacements. The Russian contact said, really, we do not need a US map to know where our troops are, lol.

We interpret the Universe through 5 senses in order that the 6th sense, the mind, can operate. The Scriptures are our passport, so to speak, to understanding God. We have His words in English, others are sweating blood to bring them to other languages.

I've had two objections in this thread: I don't think these men came here as intruders or enemies. That's how I see them treated, no matter how soft the objections to them are. The second is I see the KJV elevated to the point of the brass serpent of Moses. His words will be written in our hearts one day, those parts of His word we do not understand will be perfect. When that which is perfect has come what is that which is done in part shall be done away. I don't think there's a copy of the KJV in heaven written on gold plates. The KJV is worthless and uninspired to a Russian. If I show him or her His words out of my Russian Bible(which has the Comma in I John) I have no idea what is going on in that person's heart. The original manuscripts are worthless and uninspired to me, I cannot understand them. Our work is laid out for us by Paul regarding tongues, getting the word to the lost in as many "tongues" as we can, not smart bombing them into learning English.

It's a pleasure to be in touch with you again Will. I had a computer crash a few years ago set things back. Well, Robycop3's worst nightmare has returned, I am registering at FFF, I want to ask him if he's missed me:D

Grace and peace to you Brother.

Tony

bibleprotector 03-31-2009 01:20 AM

Quote:

no matter how soft the objections to them are
Priscilla and Aquila discerned that Apollos was not advanced in his doctrine. They therefore sought to bring him up to their understanding.

Ac 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

They did not want Apollos to stay at a low level, namely, that he should attempt to preach Christ with the doctrine of John the Baptist. It is quite right to lay out a greater understanding of the Scripture.

Having been shown, the onus is on people whether or not they respond positively to the constructive points raised about their current views and actions.

Once Apollos heard the way of God more perfectly, he advanced forward in great power.

Brother Tim 03-31-2009 08:09 AM

Brother Tony, you and I see things slightly differently, but I look forward to seeing you on FFF. I don't go there for fellowship, I go for combat training. There are some decent folks there. ChaplainPaul and Mitex(Brent) are brethren-in-arms. .... then there is roby :( Now, ransom makes roby look like an angel.

Suit up, Brother!

Daniel Haifley 03-31-2009 08:56 AM

Teach everyone English?
 
Quote -"Unashamedly, I say that we had rather have one standard, according to Isaiah’s prophecies (e.g. 59:19), than to have what the Dean Burgon Society labours to attain, which is thousands of translations to every tribe and dialect, rather than conformity to one standard for all, made common, and proved to be true.

I find that David Livingston taught the brightest and most zealous natives English, and that they would be set to be the future spiritual leaders. I find that in Australia, the Aborigines were taught English, and it took until 2007 for a complete Bible (a modern version) to be made in just one of their dialects. I say that the aims of Richard Hakluyt, Oliver Cromwell and others were higher, and that the William Carey Bible Society is viewing things with the limitations of the nineteenth century, rather than having the nineteenth century truth advancing for all."

This was what one of you brethren said. I don't know if it is the view of all. The question I have is this - if people must learn English to hear the wonderful Word of God, Why did God give the gift of tongues in Acts chapter 2 so that all could hear in the language of their birth?

There is absolutely no scriptural backing for such a claim. It is a strong place to stand when you must stand there with only the wisdom of man. I believe that God, Himself, was involved in the translation of the King James Version, but I don't believe that He is limited to one language. In fact the early church struggled with the different languages. I Corinthians 14 talks of the tongues of men (the many languages in the world), and the tongues of angels (every listener understands in his own language). I have personally documented over 5,000 language groups that have not yet heard one verse of scripture in their language. One such group has over 8,000,000 souls. Am I to understand that we must teach everyone good enough English to actually understand the Bible? It will take anywhere from 5-15 years to get them the Bible in their own language, and then it is accessable to all.

All King James Bible Believers are men of faith, and I am blessed to be one of those. We believe that God keeps His promises. However, faith is not a blind acceptance of some mans opinion. It is the substance of things hoped for-the evidence of things not seen. It is always anchored in the pomises of God. God did not promise that He would give the Bible in one language and then everyone must come to that language. He promised to preserve it, but He also promised to give it to the whole world.

Thanks for considering my thoughts.

Brother Tim 03-31-2009 09:56 AM

Quote:

He promised to preserve it, but He also promised to give it to the whole world.
First, I completely understand the prospective that many KJB followers have toward getting the Word out into other languages. There is a misconception, however, towards those who emphasize the need for training people of other languages to read English. I, for one, do not claim that one must read English in order to learn about God or His Word. What I do believe is that all other language translations must defer to the KJB as the final authority.

As much as some may desire, there will never be a time on earth when the Scriptures have been accurately and perfectly translated into every language, or even into every major language. There is not a single translation on earth today that believers acknowledge as the complete and perfect Words of God other than the KJB. I do not see a day when that will change.

Will Kinney 03-31-2009 10:58 AM

KJB= God's pure words
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 17611)
First, I completely understand the prospective that many KJB followers have toward getting the Word out into other languages. There is a misconception, however, towards those who emphasize the need for training people of other languages to read English. I, for one, do not claim that one must read English in order to learn about God or His Word. What I do believe is that all other language translations must defer to the KJB as the final authority.

As much as some may desire, there will never be a time on earth when the Scriptures have been accurately and perfectly translated into every language, or even into every major language. There is not a single translation on earth today that believers acknowledge as the complete and perfect Words of God other than the KJB. I do not see a day when that will change.

Hi brother Tim. I totally agree with you on this. Most KJB onlyists will agree that God can and does use other inferiour bible versions to bring people to faith in Christ as their one and only Saviour. But that does not mean that those other versions are the complete, perfect and inerrant words of God. In fact, most Christians today do not believe that any Bible in any language on earth today is the complete and inerrant Scriptures; yet I believe most of them are still Christians. Belief in the inerrancy of Scripture is not necessary to salvation, but you sure miss out on a lot when you begin to deny or disbelieve this doctrine. The only Bible seriously defended by thousands of Bible believers as being the inerrant words of God is that one Book that stands out above all others - the Authorized King James Holy Bible.

Gracias,
Aceptos en el Amado - Efesios 1:6

Will Kinney 03-31-2009 11:07 AM

God's book - the King James Bible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Haifley (Post 17610)
I believe that God, Himself, was involved in the translation of the King James Version, but I don't believe that He is limited to one language. ... God did not promise that He would give the Bible in one language and then everyone must come to that language. He promised to preserve it, but He also promised to give it to the whole world.

Thanks for considering my thoughts.

Hi Daniel. If you are talking about a complete, inspired and inerrant Bible, then do you actually know of any other Bible in any language that you also consider to be the complete and inerrant words of God? If so, could you please tell us where we can get a copy of it so we can compare it to our King James Bible to see the differences and similarities?

By the way, where did God ever promise to give a perfect and inerrant Bible to anybody, let alone to the whole world? Do you have that verse handy for us?

I know that Christ said the gospel of the kingdom would be preached in the whole world, but where do we have any promise from God about a complete, inerrant and inspired Bible being given to anyone?

Are you sure you are getting your thinking from the Book or are you just following what has been referred to as "the wisdom of men"?

Thanks,

Will Kinney

Daniel Haifley 03-31-2009 02:01 PM

Thanks for the response
 
First of all I want to say that I've gone back and scan read what a lot of you have said in this thread. Several have articulated my thoughts quite well. So I understand that this is a cross section of ideas which I appreciate. I will attempt to give every statement the respect it deserves, and I am quite certain that none of us agree on everything.

Will, I believe in the verbal, plenary, inspiration of the scriptures. Verbal -meaning God gave the words to the holy men of old (Peter 1:21) Plenary-meaning God gave us all that we need and that we need all that we have (2 Timothy 3:16-17) Inspiration- meaning that God was the source of the words and God is the source of the change that comes from the words.

Is a copy of the original writings inspired? Does it even say that they were all written down? It says they "spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." Was the original inspiration written or spoken? In some cases it was written (ie. Moses) in others it was spoken (ie. Peter at pentecost). If a copy of the original transmission of the scripture was inspired - is a translation of the original transmission also equally inspired? An interesting thought here is that the Word was given by inspiration, but so also was Adam's life given by inspiration. I believe spiritual life is given by "in"spiration.

I am not one of the great teachers of our time, but I am willing to be taught. I am a Bible believer but I have found it hard to put an Infinite God into the box of my finite mind. I am enjoying all of the comments on this thread, and have been instructed in many ways, however don't try to box me into a corner that you have designed for me.

tonybones2112 03-31-2009 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector (Post 17512)
I believe that the Scripture indicates the proper view regarding the KJB in the end times. That the KJB should be exalted seems to be a good thing, after all, Psalm 56 talks about praising God’s Word, and Isaiah 42:21 says, “The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.”

But the OT, when spiritually applied. is for the Church, as Romans 15:4 states, “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.”

I do not think we should water down our doctrines just because they might be unpopular in the eyes of Leftists etc. We should be zealous, and speak with conviction and clarity about what is right and good.

We believe the KJB is perfect. We believe that it is the best anyone in the world can have. We are not denying that the Scripture and the Gospel has been in other languages, but we seek to promote and allow for the best for all folk in all nations, which means having a common standard Bible. I believe that this is the basis of true Christian unity as opposed to having many versions as well as continuing to uphold many varying translations.

I would even go so far to suggest that when Christ said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” (Mt 10:34), that He was thinking about the Holy Ghost’s work with the KJB as a particular fulfilment of this prophecy, because we all know how divisive Satan has been in regards to the modern versionists against the steadfast stand for the KJB.

The answer to that question can be given on the basis of this question: The Geneva Bible, was it of God, or of men?

The answer to that accusation can be given on the basis of this question: Do KJBOs labour to ban the Geneva Bible?

1Cor. 14:21 says, “In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.” How will Gentiles speak to the Jews? At one time it was in the Greek language. But now most Jews know English. Also, this prophecy indicates that the Jews would continue to resist the Gospel in this present circumstance. However, we find that there are more prophecies in Scripture which build further. Clearly, God has been speaking with the use of the KJB to the Jews. Our expectation should be for the increase of this, not a decrease.


The Romanists are not just disobeying God, they were not God’s envoys, missionaries, representatives or ambassadors since the early centuries when the Roman Church went into perdition.

If anyone actually believes that, then they might actually believe that all Protestants are Roman Catholics because, like Catholics, Protestants want to convert the world to their own religion. (E.g. cats have 4 legs, my dog has 4 legs, therefore my dog is a cat.)

I believe this is a foolish question.

Erasmus and Tyndale desired Turks and Saracens to be saved. Knowing English is not a prerequisite for salvation. However, it is quite useful to have the printing press as an aid to salvation. The English language is one of those things which has the greatest potential for the furtherest instruction of benighted souls.


First, Gen. 11:1 “And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.” This was the case with God's intention in creation. We should not attempt to form a doctrine which prohibits ONE LANGUAGE.

Second, God scattered people and languages as a judgment on sin. However, the advent of Abram in the end of this chapter is the portal by which this is reversed. (We are the children of Abraham, and the blessing is to all nations of the earth!)

Third, in the Millennial reign of Christ we see a one world kingdom. This is not bad, but good. Yet today, the idea of a one world kingdom means something bad. Now consider: if born again people are in the future using one language as common, this could not be bad like the antichrist kingdom, since,
a. they are good, godly, righteous people,
b. they are the same Church that Paul was part of,
c. they are doing so because it is part of God’s plan.

It seems to me that God, in His Divine Providence, has raised up the KJB and made the English language to be global so that the pure Word would be taught by the Christian advance of the best doctrines in one language as a witness to the world would actually work out to the confounding of evil and to those who mock Christianity because of divisions. What would do more to heal and bring unity than one true focus, namely, to have the very Word of God in English as the focus of all true believers in the whole earth before the return of Christ, so that we would be, “the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15b).

Thank you for replying to my message. I have a couple questions to clarify further:

1. 2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Is Manny, Daniel, and Brett trying to corrupt the word of God or spread it into the hands of souls that have no word of God?

2. Are they with us(the Church, not just this forum) or against us?

3. Place a copy, in Polish, of The Godfather on a table and place the Polish(I believe it's the GDANSKA) version of some 400 years ago next to it.

4. Which book will a lost Pole find the gospel of Christ in? Which book will then work effectually in him or her who has believed?

I apologize for not answering you sooner.

Grace and peace.

Tony

tonybones2112 03-31-2009 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bibleprotector (Post 17605)
Priscilla and Aquila discerned that Apollos was not advanced in his doctrine. They therefore sought to bring him up to their understanding.

Ac 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

They did not want Apollos to stay at a low level, namely, that he should attempt to preach Christ with the doctrine of John the Baptist. It is quite right to lay out a greater understanding of the Scripture.

Having been shown, the onus is on people whether or not they respond positively to the constructive points raised about their current views and actions.

Once Apollos heard the way of God more perfectly, he advanced forward in great power.

Brother, yes, Apollos taught the Baptism of John, the gospel of Peter, James and John, the "Great Commission", that millions still persist in teaching, and not Paul's ministry of reconciliation to God through Christ with the revelation of the mystery that Jews and Gentile were now equal in the Body Of Christ whereas under Peter, James, and John, salvation to Gentiles was only through Israel(the ministry of The Twelve. These two gospels are found in Galatians 2:9-12. In Acts 3 Peter taught that national Israel's sins would be blotted out at the end of the Tribulation, Paul, Aquila, and Pricilla taught that there was NOW no need for John's gospel, and that Jew and Gentile were equal in the Body with sins washed away NOW.

Grace and peace

Tony

Will Kinney 03-31-2009 02:38 PM

God's book - the King James Bible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Haifley (Post 17614)

Will, I believe in the verbal, plenary, inspiration of the scriptures. Verbal -meaning God gave the words to the holy men of old (Peter 1:21) Plenary-meaning God gave us all that we need and that we need all that we have (2 Timothy 3:16-17) Inspiration- meaning that God was the source of the words and God is the source of the change that comes from the words.

Is a copy of the original writings inspired? Does it even say that they were all written down? It says they "spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." Was the original inspiration written or spoken? In some cases it was written (ie. Moses) in others it was spoken (ie. Peter at pentecost). If a copy of the original transmission of the scripture was inspired - is a translation of the original transmission also equally inspired? An interesting thought here is that the Word was given by inspiration, but so also was Adam's life given by inspiration. I believe spiritual life is given by "in"spiration.

I am not one of the great teachers of our time, but I am willing to be taught. I am a Bible believer but I have found it hard to put an Infinite God into the box of my finite mind. I am enjoying all of the comments on this thread, and have been instructed in many ways, however don't try to box me into a corner that you have designed for me.

Hi Daniel. Thanks for your thoughts. However you seem to be avoiding a direct answer. It looks like it is YOU who has boxed himself into a corner and since you cannot rationally defend your previous statements, you now charge that it is I who am boxing you into this corner you have made for yourself. I am just asking you to back up what you say you believe.

First of all, you say you believe in the inspiration of "the scriptures". Great! We are agreed on that. But "the scriptures" are divine words WRITTEN DOWN. The word "Scriptures" comes from the verb "to write"; not "to speak", nor "to give life to", nor "to breathe into".

Previously you stated:

Quote:

“I believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the scriptures. I also believe that God is not limited to one language (English is not the language of heaven-Americans are not the chosen). He can inspire in 18 languages at one time -if He so chooses, ie. Acts 2.”
Then you went on to say:
Quote:

" I believe that God, Himself, was involved in the translation of the King James Version, but I don't believe that He is limited to one language.

All King James Bible Believers are men of faith, and I am blessed to be one of those. We believe that God keeps His promises. However, faith is not a blind acceptance of some mans opinion. It is the substance of things hoped for-the evidence of things not seen. It is always anchored in the promises of God. God did not promise that He would give the Bible in one language and then everyone must come to that language. He promised to preserve it, but He also promised to give it to the whole world."
The context of our whole discussion is whether or not there exists such a thing as the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God in book form (the Scriptures) or not. I and many others believe there is and it is called the Authorized King James Holy Bible.

You say you believe God is not limited to one language, and that God has promised to give "the scriptures" to the whole world. Fine. All I am asking you to do is to tell us exactly where we can get a copy of "the scriptures" in any language other than the English of the King James Bible.

If you cannot do so, then it is YOU who is basing your beliefs on what you referred to as "the wisdom of men". It would be great if God has indeed done it the way you seem to think He did. So, where is the proof of your theory? Can you show us the Book in any language other than the English of the King James Bible?

Otherwise you are professing a faith in something that you know does not exist and have taken the position of most Bible agnostics today who tell us that only the originals were inspired. We are then left with a bunch of hypothetical, imaginary, philosophical and speculative "inspired Scriptures" that you have never seen and cannot show us.

All I am asking you to do is to concretely back up your previous statements about God not being limited to one language as far as a complete, inspired and inerrant Bible.

Will you do that for us? (I trow not;-)

Will Kinney


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