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tonybones2112 03-31-2009 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 17524)
A child will grow eating food that is poor in nutrition, but he will not grow healthy. A believer may grow reading a modern version (the extent of that growth depends on many factors), but he will always be more stunted than if he had the "pure milk of the word".

Brother Tim, how are we going to force, short of Stealth bombers and aircraft carriers, the non-English speaking peoples of the world into learning English?

From the time that the original manuscripts of the New Testament decayed until the KJV was 1500+ years. We will soon be 400 years out from the KJV. Where is the inspired Arabic equivalent and why has no one produced one? Where is the French, the Spanish, the German? If someone wanted to translate the word of God that would work effectually in those who believe in other languages, are we helping or hindering? Are we going to help and share in the fruit, or maintain our quasi-British Israelite position that the world is going to have to learn English to be saved? Sorry brother, a most untenable position and one I cannot support. I say that to brothers with charity and grace, I'm saving my vitriol for the Jesuits on FFF.

Grace and peace to you.

Tony

Brother Tim 03-31-2009 04:02 PM

First, I do not reject the work of translating the Scriptures into USABLE languages (that is, languages that are robust enough to communicate the message clearly*) AS LONG AS the translators qualify their work as being based on the KJB. The full reasons why I don't go along with stepping all the way back to the original languages are too extensive for one post but it boils down to two, ( 1 ) the question of which manuscripts are to be used, and ( 2 ) the lack of original language skills of the average missionary/translator [now if we had men of the caliber of the KJB translators, this might be different - Dr. D.A. Waite, himself a skilled man, told me that he did not know of 5 men alive who would qualify.]

* The vast majority of languages in today's world do not have the range of vocabulary to adequately communicate. One attempt had Jesus being called the "rooster of God".


Secondly, we do not need to train everyone in a given language... Skilled individuals can be trained in English, and then they could communicate the truth to others.

It is commonly known truth that many countries which do not allow missionaries will allow English teachers, even when those teachers are missionaries.

Brother Tim 03-31-2009 04:04 PM

P.S. Tony, you sure don't do the "soft, sweet approach", do you. :D I saw your first couple of posts at FFF. It is going to get WILD!!:boxing:

bibleprotector 03-31-2009 09:50 PM

People should see that we are NOT saying "Unless you have the KJB, you cannot be saved".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
1. 2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Is Manny, Daniel, and Brett trying to corrupt the word of God or spread it into the hands of souls that have no word of God?

2. Are they with us(the Church, not just this forum) or against us?

Apollos knew only the baptism of John. It was good. But it was not the perfect understanding. Just as Apollos had the motive to spread truth and do good, so I would venture is the aims of the TRO folk.

But let us be clear: the Word of God is already available to many folk throughout the world today. There are three forms: modern versions (the worst), TR-based versions (multiple ones in some languages), and the KJB itself.

The best form of the Word of God for anyone is the KJB, and I would rather have the KJB given to people who have English as a second language than expend all the effort, resources, time and money on trying to get a KJB equivalent into their native dialects.

Therefore, I serious doubt that we could say that some Poles or Spanish-speakers are missing out of the Scripture, as the above statement implies, "spread it into the hands of souls that have no word of God". It is not that they do not have the Word, but it is as if many need the best form, and that it would be good for them all to have it, namely the pure and perfect KJB.

The evidence of whether or not people are with us or not, is whether or not the KJB is being uphold as both the best, and as perfect. Many people on this forum agree that the KJB is perfect. That means that as far as the exact knowledge of Scripture is concerned, the KJB itself must be upheld as the final form of the Received Text, to which we desire all folk of all languages to acknowledge, even if English is not their first language. This is despite the existence of Scripture in other previous translations.

bibleprotector 03-31-2009 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Bones
the "Great Commission", that millions still persist in teaching, and not Paul's ministry of reconciliation

I see that we have a different view on the Gospel. I believe that the same Gospel of Acts 2 is the same as Acts 22.

George 03-31-2009 11:12 PM

Re: "The William Carey Bible Society"
 
Aloha Daniel

Your quote - Post #73, this Thread:
Quote:

"God did not promise that He would give the Bible in one language and then everyone must come to that language. He promised to preserve it, but He also promised to give it to the whole world."
It's important that we take note of Scriptural "distinctions" and keep our facts straight: God never: "promised to preserve it (the whole Bible) - God promised to preserve His words
[Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.]

While The Holy Bible {A BOOK that you can hold in your hands}, contains ALL of God's words/word - God never promised that everyone would have a "Bible" in their own language, or that He would preserve ALL of His "words" in ALL languages.

And God never: "promised to give it (the Bible) to the whole world." The Lord promised that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world"
[Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.]

There is a whole lot of difference between "this gospel of the kingdom" and the whole Bible {A BOOK that you can hold in your hands}.

The “problem” between those of us who are genuine King James Bible believers and those Christians that are not, or who may not understand where we are coming from, often is a matter of semantics or the “definition” of words. I will illustrate:

The first thing that Christians should know is what GOD’S ATTITUDE is towards His word:

Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnifiedthywordabove all thy name.

The next thing that Christians should know is:

GOD’S WORD or WORDS = Oral and/or Written words

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

FIRST OCCURRENCE IN SCRIPTURE OF GOD’S “WORD”/“WORDS”:

Job 6:10Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

Exodus 4:28 And Moses told Aaron all the words of the LORD who had sent him, and all the signs which he had commanded him.
29 And Moses and Aaron went and gathered together all the elders of the children of Israel:
30 And Aaron spake all the words which the LORD had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people.

GOD’S PROMISES CONCERNING HIS WORDS

GOD PROMISED TO PURIFY HIS WORDS
Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

GOD PROMISED TO KEEP HIS WORDS
Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

GOD PROMISED TO PRESERVE HIS WORDS FOREVER
Psalms 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

THE LORD PROMISED HIS TRUTH WILL ENDURE TO ALL GENERATIONS

Psalms 100:5
For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

THE LORD PROMISED THAT HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY BUT HIS WORDS SHALL NOT PASS AWAY

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

CONCERNING PROMISES - GOD IS NOT A MAN THAT HE SHOULD LIE

Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgment endureth for ever.

Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

THE ORACLES OF GOD = God’s Word/words {Oral and or Written}

FIRST OCCURRENCE IN SCRIPTURE OF THE WORD “ORACLE”:

2 Samuel 16:23 And the counsel of Ahithophel, which he counselled in those days, was as if a man had inquired at the oracle of God: so was all the counsel of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mountSina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

1 Peter 4:11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


THE SCRIPTURE OF TRUTH = God’s Written Word/words.

FIRST OCCURRENCE IN SCRIPTURE OF THE WORD “SCRIPTURE”:

Daniel 10:21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Quote:

This the only place in the entire Old Testament where the word "Scripture" is used.
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Mark 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Did you know that the word “BIBLE” is NOT in the HOLY BIBLE?

THE HOLY BIBLE= ALL of God’s Inspired Word (Words), Oracles, and Scriptures, Preserved - Perfect, Holy, Infallible, Inspired, and without error in a BOOK = AV1611 - The King James Bible.

God promised to “preserve” and “keep” His words PURE [Psalms 12:6&7] and He has. God never promised that every single nation, state, tribe, or people would have a preserved HOLY BIBLE.

The Holy BIBLE is A BOOK {that a person can hold in their hands). When someone says they are a “Bible believer” and then they start referring to the “ORIGINAL AUTOGRAPHS” (“verbal plenary inspiration”), they are NOT referring to The Holy BIBLE {A BOOK that you can hold in your hands}, they are referring to some of the word/words of God (a portion of the “Scripture of truth” or segment of “the Oracles of God”), BUT they are not talking about The Holy BIBLE {A BOOK that you can hold in your hands – that contains ALL of the preserved words of God}!

The Holy BIBLE is A BOOK {that you can hold in your hands}; IT is NOT the “Textus Receptus” (any text), the “Majority Text”, or the numerous corrupt texts taken from Vaticanus or Sinaiticus (take your pick). The Holy Bible is A BOOK {that you can hold in your hands} – IT is NOT 5,500 Greek manuscripts that contain God’s words with some errors (some mss more than others); or 11,000 Latin manuscripts that contain God’s words with lots of errors (some mss more than others); or the Early Translations (Syriac, Armenian, Georgian, Aramaic, Gothic, Coptic, Bohairic, etc.)

The Holy BIBLE is derived from some of the Greek manuscripts of Scripture; some of the Hebrew manuscripts of Scripture; some of the various Early Translations of Scripture; from some of the Greek Lectionaries; and some of the Patristic (church “fathers’) quotations of Scripture – but NONE of the sources from which The Holy Bible {A BOOK that you can hold in your hands} was translated was the COMPLETE HOLY BIBLE {Preserved - Perfect, Holy, Infallible, Inspired, and without any error.}

A person can have some of the word (words) of God - without having The Holy Bible. A person can have some of the Oracles of God – without having The Holy Bible. A person can have some Scriptures - without having The Holy Bible. They can have some of The Holy Bible - without having the complete Holy Bible. A person can have one of the numerous modern English translations (per-versions) - without having the complete Holy Bible (Preserved - Perfect, Infallible, Inspired, and without error). The Holy BIBLE is A BOOK that a person can hold in their hands; that contains ALL of the word (words, Oracles, Scriptures) of God - Preserved Perfect, Holy, Infallible, Inspired, and without error.

Historically, ONLY ONE BOOK has ever met these criteria (for nearly 400 years), NO OTHER “book” (“bible”) ever has! Historically, ONLY ONE BOOK has ever met this STANDARD – NO OTHER “book” or “bible” has even come close! So the next time someone says they are A “BIBLE” believer – ask them for their “DEFINITION” of the “BIBLE”, and see what say. And if they come up with “somethingother than A BOOK you can hold in your hands, you’ll know that they are not talking about the SAME THING that you are referring to. And if they come up with a modern translation (per-version), that they themselves will admit is NOT Preserved - Perfect, Holy, Infallible, Inspired, and without error, you’ll know they aren’t genuine BIBLE believers!

I’ve said all of this to simply say: Translate THE HOLY BIBLE {A BOOK that you can hold in your hands} into as many languages as you possibly can. Get the Gospel to as many countries and people, and in their language, as God will lead and allow. However, if you are going to translate THE HOLY BIBLE {A BOOK that you can hold in your hands} into another language, then USE THE HOLY BIBLE {A BOOK that you can hold in your hands} for your “exemplar” (Foundation) and NOT some inferior manuscripts that are NOT Preserved - Perfect, Holy, Infallible, Inspired, and without error.

If you are going to translate THE HOLY BIBLE into another language, do what the early Protestant Missionaries did when they went to China, India, Burma, the South Seas, Hawaii, etc.; and USE THE HOLY BIBLE {A BOOK that you can hold in your hands} to translate from, and if you don’t (or won’t), don’t expect us to accept your “bible” as being anything, but either a “poor substitute” for the “real thing”, or a truly “corrupt” translation from the perverted modern texts of the “original tongues”!

Perhaps now you will understand why, those of us who are genuine BIBLE
{A BOOK that you can hold in your hands} believers say: We believe the King James Bible is the HOLY word of God {Preserved - Perfect, Holy, Infallible, Inspired, and without any error} and it is our FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice. And should anyone think or believe that they have an equivalent or superior "bible", I say "bring it on" and let us examine it in the light of His glorious word.

bibleprotector 04-01-2009 04:40 AM

Dean Burgon wrote, “I believe that GOD’s Word must be absolutely infallible”, and “The Bible (be persuaded) is the very utterance of the Eternal ... the Books of it, and the sentences of it, and the words of it, and the syllables of it, — aye, and the very letters of it.” (Inspiration and Interpretation, pages 74 & 76.)

Several questions I would pose to those who claim to uphold the King James Version, yet seem to find issue with the KJBO view, namely,

1. Is the King James Bible infallible, the very message of God, to the very letters? or can this ultimately apply only to the Greek?

2. Where is the authoritative, standard, representative and exactly correct text of the Scripture today? Is it the King James Bible, or is it in the Greek? If in the Greek, what is the exact text in the Greek, where is it, and why does it differ to the KJB?

3. Can we legitimately point to the King James Bible (which is a translation), and uphold it specifically as the representative of God’s exact Word, being refined, final and totally accurately what God’s Word was when given by the original penmen?

4. Since God has certainly provided His Word in English, do we need to make any recourse to the Greek, in order to gain understanding of His message, or as needful for interpretation? or is the English of the King James Bible fully and ultimately sufficient to convey the full counsel of Scripture to every last detail?

5. Is God powerful enough, in His providence, to set up one form of perceivable Scripture, extant and finite, which may be looked upon by Christians across the world as the final standard which they can straightly acknowledge? If so, what is it? (That text/version/edition/volume must stand up to examination of it to the very jot and tittle.)

MY ANSWERS:

1. The KJB is infallible to the very letter.

2. The KJB is the final form of the Received Text.

3. The KJB is an exact translation, with the full import and sense of the original in English.

4. The KJB does not need another form of Scripture to interpret it, since it is perfectly self-interpreting, because it is exactly the correct text and translation.

5. The KJB is fit to be a standard, because it is wide and open for all, and not shrouded with mystery, uncertainty or perplexity, as is the Greek, even the Scrivener-TBS edition.

chette777 04-01-2009 04:41 AM

Amen George. I have been working on translating the OT from the King James into Tagalog. I have had whole books done and then my computer crashed and I lost all the data even the best computer guys couldn't salvage the files from the drive.

I have started again. but I fear the Lord will return before it is finished.

but you points are correct. use the KJV to translate it into another language not Greek or Hebrew manuscripts that contain errors. I have learned where there is no equivocal translation into the language to transliterate the word. Most them know how to figure the word by going to the English that way. example instead of translating Lucifer in Isa 14 to bright morning star (tala sa Umaga), as some errored manuscripts have done. I transliterated it to Luciper all these letters are found in the today's Tagalog alphabet.

Will Kinney 04-01-2009 04:54 AM

Excellent points George. Very well stated.

"In God will I praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word." Psalm 56:10

Will K

bibleprotector 04-01-2009 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 17657)
Amen George. I have been working on translating the OT from the King James into Tagalog. I have had whole books done and then my computer crashed and I lost all the data even the best computer guys couldn't salvage the files from the drive.

I have started again. but I fear the Lord will return before it is finished.

but you points are correct. use the KJV to translate it into another language not Greek or Hebrew manuscripts that contain errors. I have learned where there is no equivocal translation into the language to transliterate the word. Most them know how to figure the word by going to the English that way. example instead of translating Lucifer in Isa 14 to bright morning star (tala sa Umaga), as some errored manuscripts have done. I transliterated it to Luciper all these letters are found in the today's Tagalog alphabet.

It seems better to me, on the above testimony, to be involved in the Christian-oriented teaching of people English, (and allow for the world to become anglicised), and use the KJB than the alternative. After all, if Jesus did return and there was no KJB-equivalent Tagalog Version, would He be unjust in the light of Matthew 24:14? I trow not.

It is actually unsatisfactory that some translation should have so many issues (like altering names). And worse, since I know that most today do not seem to understand the Bible very well (whether it be their dullness of hearing or wrong doctrinal commitments), I think that this can all be avoided by adhering to the KJB, which we can all hold to as correct, despite various doctrines which might be held, or the lack of full understanding of various believers. It is better to bring people to the mountain than to try and bring the message from the mountain. "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!" (Isaiah 52:7).


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