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custer 07-07-2009 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 23434)
Ok, I misjudged peoples thought action including yours. could you perhaps have done the same in understanding Bro George's statement? you will have to have more grace than normal in reading posts and just don't read to much into it. Just take the words consider if you disagree that is ok. I could not see that he threw a tantrum in his response to you.

both would be fine.

I think we can all safely move back to the original topic of the thread.

Ummm, it sounds like from your post that maybe you haven't seen George's full assessment of me! There's some on the Love and Race thread as well as the Biblical Marriage one - maybe more on the Love and Race, I don't remember right off hand. Anyway, my point is that his ATTACKS were on ME personally, not on any info or scripture that I provided...I'm saying that I (and everyone reading) understood him perfectly; he was rather clear - there was no way to misunderstand and no cause to read too much into it!

I am only clarifying this further because it is EXACTLY the kind of thing that Bro. Parrish was talking about. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Bro. Parrish!)

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

Bro. Parrish 07-07-2009 07:52 PM

Pam, as I say I love all of you in Christ,
let's just move forward, try and get back to topic and see how it goes.

chette777 07-07-2009 07:59 PM

I went a reread thread on biblical marriage and I understood exactly what George's assessment of you. I analyzed your and his posts see that thread for some advice.

let me ask you Are any of those things in George's assessment true? if not let it go. if they are then change those areas in your life.

If George is wrong prove it not by arguing but by your attitude in those things he assessed.

Brother Tim 07-07-2009 09:28 PM

To get this thread back on balance (or to bring it to an end), I would like to summarize my position on the various points brought out (that at least have something to do with the topic :) ):

1. Ham did SOMETHING that so offended his father, Noah, that Noah spoke a curse upon the decendents of ONE of Ham's children, Canaan. What that deed was is not explicitly explained in the passage or elsewhere in the Scriptures. Sufficient, therefore, is that we accept that it had to have been a gross offense. To attempt to define what it was is nothing more than speculation.

2. The decendents of Canaan settled in the region that later became known by his name. It was the land later given by God to Abraham.

3. Because this is a curse spoken by a man and not God, we cannot tell the duration or the extent of its application. There is Scriptural evidence of the curse being in effect to some degree. [Example: the Gibeonites] To say that the curse is still in effect is not provable, primarily due to inability to clearly distinguish the decendents of each affected party. [such as: Who today are the decendents of Canaan? Where are the tents of Shem? etc]

4. It is Biblically clear that Black Africans are not the decendents of Canaan, and therefore the past and present slavery of Blacks by Whites has nothing whatsoever to do with this curse.

An additional personal observation: The intermingling of the decendents of Noah is so extensive today that it is impossible to divide the peoples of this earth into each of the three sons' families. The possible exception would be some "nations" such as the Jews that have maintained isolation as a practice. Even there, the scattered ten tribes are likely lost.

I would greatly appreciate each of the principal posters on this thread, in particular, Chette, to comment on my four points.

Jassy 07-07-2009 09:36 PM

Hope I'm not butting in here...
 
I've sat back and watched this thread unfold. I haven't posted anything. I actually have no wisdom to share on this particular topic and I admit my ignorance in this. Yet, it was sad to me to see how this unfolded. I don't think that people have the right to label others and continue to see them through the narrow filter that they've devised for them, according to a particular person's posts on other threads. I don't understand how threads can go off target from a clear topic to name-calling and character-bashing.

As I see it, you are all fellow believers in Jesus Christ and, hopefully, all upholders of the KJV Bible, as I am. If not, then I'd question the sincerity of your membership here. If you come with a genuine desire to know the truth - then, of course, you are welcome. If you come to spread dissention and division amongst the KJV Bible-believers, then that certainly is NOT welcome. There is plenty of room for that on other Forums.

Honestly, if people are going to always be picking at each other, finding others' weaknesses, and eagerly seeking to point out the errors of others, how do we say that we are brethren in the Lord? I believe it is with MUCH humility that one ought to express any type of disagreement and questioning of another brother or sister in Christ. The Bible says to CONFESS our FAULTS one to another... it doesn't say to SEEK OUT and PICK ON EACH OTHER for those faults!!

The apostle Paul should indeed be our guide as to how to conduct ourselves. He often spoke of humility and being humble.

Acts 20:19 - "Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations..."

Even Christ humbled himself!

Philippians 2:8 - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

Colossians 3:12 - Put on therefore, as the elect of god, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Where is our humbleness, meekness and longsuffering (patience)?

James 4:10 - "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up."

We don't lift ourselves up - but the LORD does it.

1 Peter 5:6 - "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:"

Do you know why I and others here at this Forum tend to look up to brother George? I respect him as my "elder" - and I make myself humble, according to his greater knowledge of the Scriptures. According to the Bible, this is correct.

1 Peter 5:5 - "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject to another and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."

I believe that brother George has steadfastly reminded people to remain focused on the Scriptures that have relevance and, as brother Forrest does, to set our eyes on CHRIST.

Colossians 2:8 - "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

I've been consistently reminded of that here on this Forum. We are to look to the Scriptures for wisdom and knowledge. As people often will say "What saith the Scripture." or "Yea, hath God said..." We have to be careful that we don't attribute our own biases and misguided understandings to be the wisdom of God. We always must compare Scripture with Scripture, to find the truth... and also make sure that we are rightly dividing the Word of truth.

I'm reminded of Colossians 2:16 -"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
17 - "Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
18 - "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,"
19 - "And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God."
20 - "Wherefore if ye be dead in Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,"
21 - "(Touch not; taste not; handle not;"
22 - "Which all are to perish with the using; )" after the commandments and doctrines of men?"
23 - "Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

For people to hold onto grudges or past slights and refer back to them, is just immaturity. Truly we need to forgive and forget - to move forward as ONE BODY IN CHRIST!! Have we forgotten that WE are the BODY and that He (the LORD) is the HEAD? Would he want all this backstabbing and bickering and foolish name-calling? What happens to the edification and learning? That is what I came to this Forum to do: learn - To grow in wisdom and knowledge of the Word; and to fellowship with brethren who uphold the King James Bible.

I don't think we should be here to try to "one up" each other. Let us remember:

1 Corinthians 14:33 - "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

And remember that we all have different roles to play, according to how the Lord has placed us in the Body of Christ. One of us is not more important than any of the others... no matter how "lowly" their own role may seem.

Ephesians 4:11 - "And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"
12 - "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
13 - "Till we all come in the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:"
14 - "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"
15 - "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"
16 - "From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

Keep reading there in Colossians 2 - and then think of this Forum as a microcosom of the larger Body of Christ. We should walk in a way that edifies others and in a way that new people that come to the Forum can immediately see the love that we have for one another here. I have FELT that love here - we need to focus on that and not let petty differences come between us as brethren.

Jassy

custer 07-07-2009 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 23439)
I went a reread thread on biblical marriage and I understood exactly what George's assessment of you. I analyzed your and his posts see that thread for some advice.

let me ask you Are any of those things in George's assessment true? if not let it go. if they are then change those areas in your life.

If George is wrong prove it not by arguing but by your attitude in those things he assessed.

Chette,

George's assessment of me is very UNTRUE...you could ask anybody who knows me (he definitely does not!) And I don't remember arguing about that stuff!

But my whole point has been - why was George assessing me at all? I just wanted to discuss the issue and the scripture...

With that said, George has caused me to wonder about people and their assessment of themselves; I'll post that separately!

I have answered you in the Biblical Marriage thread as well. THANK YOU!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

custer 07-07-2009 11:33 PM

self-assessment!
 
Well, I definitely agree with Bro. Parrish - that we should avoid the bickering...so let it be known that the purpose of this post is simply to 'share' a little word study that I have done that has helped me (and I believe will help anyone reading it) to understand the foundation of some of the squabbling on here! (And perhaps with this realization, the situation could be remedied!)

I guess a good 'jumping off place' would be Bro. Parrish's proposed "dislike for George." Bro. Parrish has, of course, cleared this up and has stated on more than one occasion that he has a LOVE for all of us. BUT, the fact is that George absolutely delights in being a very UNlikable person - hence his chosen description of himself..."the old curmudgeon!" Now, I don't mind telling you that I had never even heard or seen that word until I saw George use it here (many times) to refer to himself. So, naturally, I was curious as to the definition of "curmudgeon." (I was shocked by what I've found, which is why I am posting this!!) I used three dictionaries so that hopefully I could get a complete picture:

curmudgeon: a surly, cantankerous person
curmudgeon: a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man
curmudgeon: an avaricious, churlish fellow; a miser; a niggard; a churl

and more on those defining words...
surly: gloomily morose; crabbed; snarling; sternly sour; rough; cross and rude
surly: arrogant, imperious; irritably sullen and churlish in mood or manner
surly: bad-tempered; sullenly rude; uncivil
cantankerous: bad-tempered; quarrelsome
cantankerous: difficult or irritating to deal with
crusty: peevish; snappish; morose; surly
crusty: insolent [insolent: impudent]
crusty: giving an effect of surly incivility in address or disposition
churlish: marked by a lack of civility or graciousness; difficult to work with or deal with
churlish: resembling or befitting a boor (a rude or insensitive person)
churlish: rude; surly; austere; sullen; rough in temper; unfeeling; uncivil; selfish; etc.

Now, before I proceed, let me remind everyone that ALL OF THIS IS GEORGE'S ASSESSMENT OF HIS OWN PERSONALITY, not MY description of him!!! (That is what is so mind-boggling about this!) Next, all you Bible readers will recall that the only 'churlish' man in the Bible is Nabal. (Who in their right mind glories in that their disposition matches Nabal's - a man that God killed for railing on David's men!!!???) Also, you can see the 'churl' in Isaiah 32:5 and 32:7 - the words associated with him are "vile," "evil," "wicked," and "lying words." Again, remember this is the very definition of the word George always uses to tell people about himself...I guess we can't say he didn't warn us!

When I saw that George had equated himself with Nabal, I read the whole story of Nabal again to gain more insight. In I Samuel 25:14, one of the young men told Abigail that Nabal "railed on" David's messengers. (This, by George's own admission [remember: "curmudgeon,"] from my own experience with George, and from Bro. Parrish's witness, is very characteristic of George!) Then, to find out what our reaction to a railer should be, we search Paul and find I Cor. 5:11 - "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat." (emphasis mine)

Since Chette wisely pointed out that in these posts we cannot hear intonation or have eye contact or see body language, I thought that we should consider that maybe George is being facetious when he calls himself "the old curmudgeon." But the first thought that comes to mind is Prov. 14:9 - "Fools make a mock at sin..." Yes, I know that we all have our problems in the flesh, but are we to make light of them...joke about them? I have a rather diverse sense of humor, but flippantly boasting that you are imitating Nabal or Isaiah 32's "churl" IS NOT FUNNY! What's next? Demas? Judas?

Just to be clear, let me say it again...this post is only made up of GEORGE'S APPRAISAL OF HIS OWN CHARACTER!!! I simply didn't know what a "curmudgeon" was and wondered how many of the other forum members knew. And, like I said, I am posting this because it is shocking and disgusting - and it definitely helped me to see where George was coming from...so, thank you, George for that (one) word of testimony!

This made me really wonder too, Chette, why you would choose to label Bro. Parrish and me as "ingrates" in reference to all the time you say George has put into Bible study. What are you suggesting that we should be grateful for? I am grateful for my King James Bible, the Holy Spirit, and my concordance! If I had to choose between NOT having a human Bible teacher and having a self-proclaimed "curmudgeon" as a Bible teacher, I would choose to have only the Holy Spirit any day...who wouldn't?

Well, I know this post is still off-topic, but in light of all the seeming confusion about what has transpired between who, it is clear that George's commentary on himself would be more appropriate than anything the rest of us say in relation to him...wouldn't you agree?

As an aside, Jassy, I appreciated your post and would like to make it clear that I have not had any problem PERSONALLY with George (his curmudgeonliness is between him and the Lord!)...my 'gripe' all along (and I've told him this time and again) is that he refuses to discuss scripture when it disagrees with his position!

Thanks for listening!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

greenbear 07-08-2009 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by custer (Post 23446)
Well, I definitely agree with Bro. Parrish - that we should avoid the bickering...so let it be known that the purpose of this post is simply to 'share' a little word study that I have done that has helped me (and I believe will help anyone reading it) to understand the foundation of some of the squabbling on here! (And perhaps with this realization, the situation could be remedied!)

I guess a good 'jumping off place' would be Bro. Parrish's proposed "dislike for George." Bro. Parrish has, of course, cleared this up and has stated on more than one occasion that he has a LOVE for all of us. BUT, the fact is that George absolutely delights in being a very UNlikable person - hence his chosen description of himself..."the old curmudgeon!" Now, I don't mind telling you that I had never even heard or seen that word until I saw George use it here (many times) to refer to himself. So, naturally, I was curious as to the definition of "curmudgeon." (I was shocked by what I've found, which is why I am posting this!!) I used three dictionaries so that hopefully I could get a complete picture:

curmudgeon: a surly, cantankerous person
curmudgeon: a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man
curmudgeon: an avaricious, churlish fellow; a miser; a niggard; a churl

and more on those defining words...
surly: gloomily morose; crabbed; snarling; sternly sour; rough; cross and rude
surly: arrogant, imperious; irritably sullen and churlish in mood or manner
surly: bad-tempered; sullenly rude; uncivil
cantankerous: bad-tempered; quarrelsome
cantankerous: difficult or irritating to deal with
crusty: peevish; snappish; morose; surly
crusty: insolent [insolent: impudent]
crusty: giving an effect of surly incivility in address or disposition
churlish: marked by a lack of civility or graciousness; difficult to work with or deal with
churlish: resembling or befitting a boor (a rude or insensitive person)
churlish: rude; surly; austere; sullen; rough in temper; unfeeling; uncivil; selfish; etc.

Now, before I proceed, let me remind everyone that ALL OF THIS IS GEORGE'S ASSESSMENT OF HIS OWN PERSONALITY, not MY description of him!!! (That is what is so mind-boggling about this!) Next, all you Bible readers will recall that the only 'churlish' man in the Bible is Nabal. (Who in their right mind glories in that their disposition matches Nabal's - a man that God killed for railing on David's men!!!???) Also, you can see the 'churl' in Isaiah 32:5 and 32:7 - the words associated with him are "vile," "evil," "wicked," and "lying words." Again, remember this is the very definition of the word George always uses to tell people about himself...I guess we can't say he didn't warn us!

When I saw that George had equated himself with Nabal, I read the whole story of Nabal again to gain more insight. In I Samuel 25:14, one of the young men told Abigail that Nabal "railed on" David's messengers. (This, by George's own admission [remember: "curmudgeon,"] from my own experience with George, and from Bro. Parrish's witness, is very characteristic of George!) Then, to find out what our reaction to a railer should be, we search Paul and find I Cor. 5:11 - "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no not to eat." (emphasis mine)

Since Chette wisely pointed out that in these posts we cannot hear intonation or have eye contact or see body language, I thought that we should consider that maybe George is being facetious when he calls himself "the old curmudgeon." But the first thought that comes to mind is Prov. 14:9 - "Fools make a mock at sin..." Yes, I know that we all have our problems in the flesh, but are we to make light of them...joke about them? I have a rather diverse sense of humor, but flippantly boasting that you are imitating Nabal or Isaiah 32's "churl" IS NOT FUNNY! What's next? Demas? Judas?

Just to be clear, let me say it again...this post is only made up of GEORGE'S APPRAISAL OF HIS OWN CHARACTER!!! I simply didn't know what a "curmudgeon" was and wondered how many of the other forum members knew. And, like I said, I am posting this because it is shocking and disgusting - and it definitely helped me to see where George was coming from...so, thank you, George for that (one) word of testimony!

This made me really wonder too, Chette, why you would choose to label Bro. Parrish and me as "ingrates" in reference to all the time you say George has put into Bible study. What are you suggesting that we should be grateful for? I am grateful for my King James Bible, the Holy Spirit, and my concordance! If I had to choose between NOT having a human Bible teacher and having a self-proclaimed "curmudgeon" as a Bible teacher, I would choose to have only the Holy Spirit any day...who wouldn't?

Well, I know this post is still off-topic, but in light of all the seeming confusion about what has transpired between who, it is clear that George's commentary on himself would be more appropriate than anything the rest of us say in relation to him...wouldn't you agree?

As an aside, Jassy, I appreciated your post and would like to make it clear that I have not had any problem PERSONALLY with George (his curmudgeonliness is between him and the Lord!)...my 'gripe' all along (and I've told him this time and again) is that he refuses to discuss scripture when it disagrees with his position!

Thanks for listening!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

2 Kings 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

Now George is not Elisha but the Lord is not mocked. Be careful.

chette777 07-08-2009 04:49 AM

what happened to Mary by the way. she is the one who started this thread.

I think I will not share my beliefs on hot topic threads from now on.

Brother Tim 07-08-2009 08:40 AM

Chette, before you leave this thread (that is being seriously hijacked), please respond to my post #84, which is on-topic.

KingSolomon1611 07-08-2009 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 23135)
Underlining and bold mine for emphasis:Can someone show me, Chette, Solomon, or others, WHERE the entire family of Ham was cursed??? ONE man's decendents, Canaan's, were cursed. These are NOT identified as all black-skinned people!!!

Are you implying that I said entire family of Ham was cursed? I know I didn't. I know full well that cursed be Canaan a servant of servants shall he be unto his bretheren. I believe blacks are descendants of Noah though. That isn't bigoted. It is a belief.

I will point out an observation that may appear to be bigoted. Look at the violent crime statistics compared with the ethnic statistics of population.

Black on white robberies and gang assaults are 21 times more common than white on black crimes. Blacks make up about 15% of the population.

greenbear 07-08-2009 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 23440)
To get this thread back on balance (or to bring it to an end), I would like to summarize my position on the various points brought out (that at least have something to do with the topic :) ):

1. Ham did SOMETHING that so offended his father, Noah, that Noah spoke a curse upon the decendents of ONE of Ham's children, Canaan. What that deed was is not explicitly explained in the passage or elsewhere in the Scriptures. Sufficient, therefore, is that we accept that it had to have been a gross offense. To attempt to define what it was is nothing more than speculation.

2. The decendents of Canaan settled in the region that later became known by his name. It was the land later given by God to Abraham.

3. Because this is a curse spoken by a man and not God, we cannot tell the duration or the extent of its application. There is Scriptural evidence of the curse being in effect to some degree. [Example: the Gibeonites] To say that the curse is still in effect is not provable, primarily due to inability to clearly distinguish the decendents of each affected party. [such as: Who today are the decendents of Canaan? Where are the tents of Shem? etc]

4. It is Biblically clear that Black Africans are not the decendents of Canaan, and therefore the past and present slavery of Blacks by Whites has nothing whatsoever to do with this curse.

An additional personal observation: The intermingling of the decendents of Noah is so extensive today that it is impossible to divide the peoples of this earth into each of the three sons' families. The possible exception would be some "nations" such as the Jews that have maintained isolation as a practice. Even there, the scattered ten tribes are likely lost.

I would greatly appreciate each of the principal posters on this thread, in particular, Chette, to comment on my four points.

Am I one of the principal posters on this thread? As usual, nothing's ever quite clear with you. If so, I believe I have already addressed your issues on my previous posts. Even after I did, I still received a rebuke from you. Even though I corrected myself immediately, after the fact I have received corrections or rebukes from three or four different people now on this thread and one other person has stopped communicating with me, I believe because of this thread. I have received no acknowledgment from these people as to what I have actually said. As far as the "race" issue, I don't know how anybody could come out more clearly about what they believe than I did on the Race and Love thread. I didn't even say anything about American blacks as being descendants of Canaan. I never said I thought Noah's curse applied to American blacks. I never said Noah's curse meant that white Americans would rule over black Africans. But of course even defending yourself against false accusations about emotionally charged issues like "race" just makes you look even more guilty. So let people think what they will think. I made a foolish statement connecting American black lingo to a speculative idea of the reason for the curse. I apologized profusely, it was an unthinking stupid comment. I have never believed Noah's curse applied to black Americans. But some fail to carefully read the entirety of a person's opinion on a thread.

Brother Tim, you make an insinuating comment about George who wasn't even involved in the thread in any way. You link Chette's opinion with the KKK who used to murder blacks in this country and maybe still might today if they could get away with it, then you lump every body together to address your comments. You accuse Bro. Parish of "disliking" George when he never said that. I may disagree with Bro. Parish on some things he has said in the past and feel he was unkind to the uttermost in what he said about George on this thread but I can't read his heart so I won't make a judgement on whether he likes or dislikes brother George. You are careless with other people's reputations, in my opinion.

Most of my faults are right out there for everybody to see. At times I've been overly opinionated, in your face, unkind and lacking in meekness and grace. But I have always admitted on this forum when I saw I was wrong about something. I don't need other people insinuating untrue faults or opinions to me. Sometimes people seem to lack the mental or spiritual clarity to discern important details which are necessary to come to a full understanding of what a person has actually said. It's real easy to stop short especially if it enhances one's own reputation and position while destroying someone elses. I'm not saying that is what you are doing now and I'm not saying I have never done that here. I just think we need to be aware that human beings have a propensity to do this so we should all be careful in this area.

George has been stalked on this forum for a month now by custer. She has mocked and scorned him so dozens of times. Last night she equated him to Nabal. Of course, she didn't come right out and say it in her own words, it was in the form of a "word study". The ugliest things have come out of this thread and you want to "get this thread back on balance (or to bring it to an end), I would like to summarize my position on the various points brought out (that at least have something to do with the topic :) ):"

This thread was started by a first time poster who has posted exactly once. If anyone would care to click on her website you can see that she sells "biker chic" apparel including black leather lingerie. Gee, I wonder what her motive could have been in posting this topic? The devil does work among believers to break up fellowships and I believe he has tried to do it here. That's just my discernment, however. But by all means, brother Tim, go on with your attempt to isolate Chette and publicly "out" him as a bigot and a racist because he has a different interpretation or misunderstanding of a passage.


I'm sick with being falsely accused and not even in a direct fashion, directed to "each of the principal posters on this thread, in particular, Chette" but with insinuations that are general. That way if you try to defend yourself you can be accused of being defensive or paranoid. I'm done with this board. And I will NEVER participate on any christian forum again. It is death to the spirit. There are many people here who have shown love and taught clearly and precisely from the Word, and cared enough to put forth the effort to understand what somebody was actually saying, not making assumptions for self-serving purposes. Those people I will take with me in my heart. The rest I will have to forgive their faults as they will have to forgive mine if they are Christ's.

Diligent 07-08-2009 06:05 PM

Apparently, some people were in the midst of responding to the topic of this thread, so I will re-open it. Any additional posts in this thread that are of a personal nature and not directly on-topic will be deleted.

chette777 07-08-2009 07:23 PM

Sorry Tim, mums the word on my thoughts concerning this hot issue. the reason is you have a tendency to read into my post your own bias, bigotry, and assume that certain terms are being used in a derogatory sense in which it would not be on my heart as such.

tonybones2112 07-09-2009 12:30 AM

The Mark Of Cain Myth
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Diligent (Post 23175)
Brothers Tim and Tony,

I'm with you guys. I'm really, really tired of people reading into this passage -- both in making assumptions about what was "done to" Noah and assuming that our modern ideas of "race" can be grafted on to the curse in some way.

Brandon, I'm having mucho computer problems, I've missed being in the forum. I'm gonna use this message of yours as a base so to speak, and explore the various myths dealing with Scripture being used to justify hatred becasue of something as insignificant as skin color.

God put a mark on Cain and many, many people stop there, and say, "h'it was black skin..." without reading what the Scriptures say. Why did God put a mark on Cain? "Wayall, he killded his brother..."

Ge 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

oops. All those hangings, burnings, shootings, stabbings, stonings, and dragging behind pickup trucks has put a lot of the white pointy kaps into hell. If the "mark" was "black skin", we should be as nice as we can to black folks because the "mark" was given for Cain's protection, not curse.

It's possible if every murder in the Bible is studied, the identity of this "mark" might be revealed, if there is a reason God would want to have us know it. People have commented to me the mark of Cain and the mark of The Beast in Revelation is the same mark> Rationally I can;t see this as being the same mark. The mark of Revelation is a mark of damnation, the mark put on Cain was for his protection. I can also find no Scriptural evidence that God has cursed one race of people from nearly Adamic times to the present, considering that "Hamites" are Gentiles and according to Eph. 2 and 3 all Gentiles, from then to the revelation given to Paul of the mystery of Jew and Gentile in the same Body co-equal, we were all out of the Commonwealth of Israel, we were all afar off "but now" all made nigh by the blood of Christ, "Hamites" and "Japethites".

An anthopological anomaly exists that cannot be explained by the JEB Stuart College Of Natural Sciences: The aborigines of the Solomon Islands are scientifically and anthropologically Caucasians, their skin is black as coal.

The native tribes of Africa did not jump into little wooden canoes and cross the Atlantic to invade South Carolina in the 1600s, these people were brought here against their will, stolen from their homes and sent here in the most brutal conditions known to man and subjected to persecution that makes the children of Israel in Egypt look cushy.

I'm a pretty hard person and I have a "secret sin" I make no secret of: I'm a cynic. I'm the person they used to invent the word "cynic". But there are two things I will absolutely not tolerate in a Christian setting of any kind where I hold the reins: Galatianism, being made nigh by the Spirit through the shed blood of Christ and then made "perfect" by "ordinances", "obediences", "traditions", "laws", and using the Scriptures to justify racism.

My next message will demonstrate the Scriptures disconnecting Leviticus 18 from Genesis 9.

Grace and peace friends

Tony

Brother Tim 07-09-2009 09:00 AM

Greenbear, I know that you have said that you were leaving, but I hope that you will see this and respond.

I do not understand what it was that caused you to make your last post here directed at me. I am going to reprint portions and comment, but first I appeal to you to continue posting on the forum. Because it does not fit this thread, I want to comment on the general chat part of the forum.

I will answer your post here if we are reconciled on the other thread.

Brother Tim 07-09-2009 12:38 PM

KingSolomon1611:
If you review posts #4, #5, #6, #10, and #11, the intermingling of the curse of Canaan with all Hamites should be observable.

In the following quotes, I will indicate notable areas in bold underlining:

In post #4, Chette said:
Quote:

Noah ... curses his son Canaan and Hams decedents to be a slaves to the other two brothers decedents forever.
Chette (I believe unintentionally) sets the curse of perpetual slavery on all Ham's decendents. Biblically, it is clear that the curse applies only to Canaan's decendents, and the term is "servant" not "slave".

In post #5, KingSolomon1611 uses a quote from Luke, and then links (using the rules of pronoun - noun antecedents) the name "Ham", the question of sodomy, and his past knowledge of certain behavior. The phrase "their culture", the term "rappers" and immoral acts in prisons are brought together in one paragraph. Then in post #6, Chette poses a question of linkage as to whether or not many prisoners who are immoral were also Hamites. In post #10, KingSolomon1611 answers in the affirmative.

Last, in post #11, Chette expands this linkage of Hamites and slavery: Note again that there absolutely no Biblical connection between Canaan's curse and Black slavery.
Quote:

Yeah it is sad to say know the Hamite's want the Jhaphite Americans to apologize for slavery and give them appropriations. when it was God who put them in that predicament. They should thank the God of Israel they have freedom in the USofA. I have seen a few Hamite submit themselves to a Jhaphite company owner and work hard and that Jhaphite has blessed them and they are well off because of that.
In every place in the above quote, it is clear that Chette is using "Hamite" for black-skinned people and "Jhaphite" for white-skinned people. He then applied God's judgment as the reason for the slavery of Blacks.

In post #12, I make my initial statement. In the part of the post where [King]Solomon's name appears, I am appealing to Chette, Solomon, [who have posted on the topic] and any others to show evidence where all of Ham's decendents are cursed. This statement did not claim that Solomon had made this statement any more than that any unnamed "others" had done so. Chette and KingSolomon had jointly tied the ideas together in their previous posts. Chette did so specifically, and KingSolomon gave supporting statements.

KingSolomon, I did not claim that you said that the entire family of Ham was cursed. What was evident in your posts was that you did not disagree with Chette when he made that connection. It appeared from your responses that you may have agreed with that connection. I apologize if I read more into your posts than you meant. Also, I am in no way claiming or even implying that Chette is racist or bigoted. What is true is that there are those who are racists who do use this argument to support their "superiority" over black-skinned people. I do beseech Chette to clearly reject any connection with Canaan's curse and Black slavery.

greenbear 07-09-2009 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 23518)
Greenbear, I know that you have said that you were leaving, but I hope that you will see this and respond.

I do not understand what it was that caused you to make your last post here directed at me. I am going to reprint portions and comment, but first I appeal to you to continue posting on the forum. Because it does not fit this thread, I want to comment on the general chat part of the forum.

I will answer your post here if we are reconciled on the other thread.

Brother Tim, I want to note that we have been reconciled on the other thread. I appreciate your post #98, as well.

Jen

Brother Tim 07-09-2009 05:29 PM

Thanks, Jennifer.

Brandon, if you see this, could you please delete #95? It is now been slightly updated as #98. Thanks.

KingSolomon1611 07-09-2009 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 23537)
KingSolomon1611:
It appeared from your responses that you may have agreed with that connection. I apologize if I read more into your posts than you meant. Also, I am in no way claiming or even implying that Chette is racist or bigoted. What is true is that there are those who are racists who do use this argument to support their "superiority" over black-skinned people. I do beseech Chette to clearly reject any connection with Canaan's curse and Black slavery.

I do believe all blacks are Hamites but I don't believe all blacks are descendants of Canaan. I am a racist and a bigot but I didn't think it was fair for you to call my hand on it before I have had an opportunity to adequately articulate my sinful pride and arrogance (ha ha ha- I'm just joking. I don't dislike a person based upon the color of their skin). I too like another brother or two on this forum have a wife of another nation/race. I am white and she is oriental. I have black friends and my recent disciple is a Hametic Brother in the Lord (I don't know if he is a Canaanite though...I thought about barking out a couple of orders and see if he obeys me or punches me in the mouth. Ha Ha Just joking again!).

I don't have time tonight but I would like to jump back to this discussion and maybe elaborate on some ideas and toss them out to a critical crowd to see if it can stand the scrutiny of the bretheren. I have a ton of homework to do and need to get back to it. Thanks for your response.

tonybones2112 07-09-2009 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingSolomon1611 (Post 23560)
I do believe all blacks are Hamites but I don't believe all blacks are descendants of Canaan. I am a racist and a bigot but I didn't think it was fair for you to call my hand on it before I have had an opportunity to adequately articulate my sinful pride and arrogance (ha ha ha- I'm just joking. I don't dislike a person based upon the color of their skin). I too like another brother or two on this forum have a wife of another nation/race. I am white and she is oriental. I have black friends and my recent disciple is a Hametic Brother in the Lord (I don't know if he is a Canaanite though...I thought about barking out a couple of orders and see if he obeys me or punches me in the mouth. Ha Ha Just joking again!).

I don't have time tonight but I would like to jump back to this discussion and maybe elaborate on some ideas and toss them out to a critical crowd to see if it can stand the scrutiny of the bretheren. I have a ton of homework to do and need to get back to it. Thanks for your response.

1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Brother Solomon, my only disagreement with you is a slight one, semantics, nomenclature. In time past, under the commonwealth of Israel, there were two races: Jews, and everybody else. In the age of God's grace the terms "Hamite" "Japethite" "Shemite" are a bit obsolete. As near as my anthropological studies have taken me, your wife and Muslim Arabs are Shemites, as are American Indians and Indians of central and south America. I'm 3/4 Scot/Irish, 1/4 Shawnee/Cherokee. That and 2 dollars gets a cup of coffee at Waffle House in God's eyes. Adolf Hitler was 1/4 Jewish and 1/2 Slavonic Czech, he was not even a member of the Aryan Race he worshiped.

I'm not raising a contention with you, I felt led to point out the 'H-J-S" words are appropriate for Dr. Ruckman's cult,William Pierce's National Alliance and the Christian Identity terrorist group, I think as Christians we should not dwell on where we came from but who we are today in Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace to you

Tony

KingSolomon1611 07-10-2009 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 23591)
... for Dr. Ruckman's cult,William Pierce's National Alliance and the Christian Identity terrorist group, I think as Christians we should not dwell on where we came from but who we are today in Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace to you

Tony

Considering I am a PBI graduate (and a Ruckmanite) and have just been linked with murderers and facists I will ignore semantical points poorly articulated. Where in the world did you get the idea to lump Ruckman, who has trained missionaries that are serving in Africa and many other countries, with guys that murder people and who promote murder?

Maybe you know something about Ruckman that I don't? I studied under him for 3 and a half years. Maybe I missed something?

I don't know what kind of grace and peace I am supposed to receive after being indirectly associated with someone who you seem to mention in the same breath as murderers and nazis :confused:

KingSolomon1611 07-10-2009 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 23591)
I felt led to point out the 'H-J-S" words are appropriate for Dr. Ruckman's cult,William Pierce's National Alliance and the Christian Identity terrorist group, I think as Christians we should not dwell on where we came from but who we are today in Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace to you

Tony

I mentioned the origins on a thread about Ham. I'm not "dwelling on it". Besides Paul "dwelt on it" every now and then.

Romans 11:1 (KJV)
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

And since "H-J-S" are appropriate for murderers,facists and Ruckman(?) maybe you should note that the Holy Spirit thought it appropriate to show the gospel of the grace going to a represenative of "H-J-S" :

-Acts 8 the Ethiopian Eunuch gets saved. "H" for Ham

- Acts 9 Saul gets saved. "S" for Shem

- Acts 10 Cornelius gets saved. "J" for Japheth

Maybe you could benefit from sitting under Ruckman for a while. He teaches the Bible pretty good for a "cult" leader.

KingSolomon1611 07-10-2009 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 23271)
The curse placed by Noah was that the Canaanites would serve the the children of Israel(servants to the Egyptians), not white American Gentiles. We appear nowhere in Scripture as prophecy, neither does the Body of Christ.

Grace and peace sister.

Tony

I'd say Canaan was also prophesied to be a servant to the descendants of Japheth.

Genesis 9:26-27 (KJV)
26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Brother Tim 07-10-2009 08:52 AM

Solomon, the following fact continues to be ignored in your posts:
Black-skinned people of Africa do not descend from Canaan. They are NOT Canaanites! Canaan's land boundaries are exactly spelled out in the Scriptures, and that land DOES NOT include Africa. Ham's OTHER son(s) (one or more) is/are the ancestor(s) of the black-skinned nations of Africa.

Bro. Parrish 07-10-2009 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingSolomon1611 (Post 23609)
Considering I am a PBI graduate (and a Ruckmanite) and have just been linked with murderers and facists I will ignore semantical points poorly articulated. Where in the world did you get the idea to lump Ruckman, who has trained missionaries that are serving in Africa and many other countries, with guys that murder people and who promote murder?

Maybe you know something about Ruckman that I don't? I studied under him for 3 and a half years. Maybe I missed something?

I don't know what kind of grace and peace I am supposed to receive after being indirectly associated with someone who you seem to mention in the same breath as murderers and nazis :confused:

King, that makes a couple of times Tony has called my friend brother Ruckman a CULTIST. It's uncalled for, but then let's face it; Tony likes to attack Baptist Pastors, because he likes to attack water baptism. This is typical of Hyperdispensationalists, that's why he calls the ordinances of our New Testament "sacraments," OVER and OVER and OVER again on this forum. Tony has proven to be a chameleon on this forum, one day he is polite and the next day he is swinging his fist calling me a Neanderthal and spitting venom. Then he comes back and apologizes. In all of this, I have learned to love the guy for what he is. Tony is also having a tough time at home and we need to pray for him and his family.

Ruckman has flaws, I don't agree with him on everything; but Doc has done a lot of good, he has been a personal blessing to me and millions of Bible students, and he has stood for the KJV longer by far than most of his pesky critics on internet forums.

tonybones2112 07-10-2009 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingSolomon1611 (Post 23609)
Considering I am a PBI graduate (and a Ruckmanite) and have just been linked with murderers and facists I will ignore semantical points poorly articulated. Where in the world did you get the idea to lump Ruckman, who has trained missionaries that are serving in Africa and many other countries, with guys that murder people and who promote murder?

Maybe you know something about Ruckman that I don't? I studied under him for 3 and a half years. Maybe I missed something?

I don't know what kind of grace and peace I am supposed to receive after being indirectly associated with someone who you seem to mention in the same breath as murderers and nazis :confused:

Okay, if you want to take my comment amiss, let's take it amiss. You were associated with no one. You were shown that the three races of man are not spades, crackers, and hebes(Dr. Ruckman's words from various books and commentaries still in print) Read his commentary on Genesis 9 and tell me who was "sodomized" and what curse still is in place from post Adamic times to the present. Sure, Dr. Ruckman has trained many missionaries that were needed in his home country for Africa and many other places. Jack Hyles preached some of the most Scriptural and Spirit-filled messages against adultery ever recorded by print or electronic meanswhile practicing it. Your point?

If nothing else I'm glad you were grounded in the inspiration of the KJV from PBI. I was educated at the Oregon District(5th Street in Dayton Ohio) Theological Seminary. One Saturday night in Oct. of 1988 I was with a group of people who tried to talk personally to Dr. Ruckman at Charity Baptist Church of "Dr." Greg Estep in Beavercreek Ohio regarding the corrupt Westcott/Hort text of the Bearing Precious Seed Spanish New Testament Of "Dr." Charles Keen(or Kean) of First Baptist Church of Milford Ohio that was being pawned off to many Baptist churches as "The KJV In Spanish!". I still have the BPS Spanish NT, it's word for word the text of the Reina-Valera of 1901, that follows the Westcott/Hort text. We were prevented from meeting with Dr. Ruckman because he refused to address the issue that he was wrong and failed to check out what he endorsed before endorsing it. I quote William of Occam:

"Oops".

We were prevented bodily from getting within proximity of Dr. Ruckman by "Dr." Estep and two young men who were bodybuilders, Ruckman's bodyguards. When I made the statement to the men and women with me that let's not waste anymore time and head for the street ministry, one of the young men made an obscene remark I won;t repeat for the sake of the women in this forum. I won't repeat it for the sake of the men, either.

By Dr. Ruckman's fruits ye shall know them.

On four occasions I wasa approached secretly by four men, PBI graduates and members of Charity Baptist, who told me they had examined the BPS NT and that we were "right" about it. I told them, kewl, come down on the street with us, let's win some souls to Christ this weekend. I was told four times by these four men, PBI graduates, blood-bought Christian men, "I h'ain;t witnessin' to no n****rs!"

By Dr. Ruckman's fruits ye shall know them.

Grace and peace Solomon, you need both. You also need to stop being a respecter of persons. Dr. Peter S. Ruckman has been in the ministry of reconciliation over 62 years now, is 89 years old, has macular degeneration, degenerative disk disease of the lumbar veterbre, has done much to champion the inspiration of the KJV, God's inspired words in English, and also wasn't nailed to a cross 2000 years ago for you or me.

Tony

pbiwolski 07-10-2009 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 23646)
You also need to stop being a respecter of persons.

I respect Dr. Ruckman. Is it okay for me to do that, Tony?

It was a blessing to travel to MD two nights last month and hear him preach again. I forgot how funny he was when preaching. He preached "A Great Woman" and "W.A.T.C.H." to whom it may concern.

Winman 07-10-2009 07:49 PM

I believe Gen 9:24-27 to be somewhat misunderstood.

Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

I have been reading a series of articles that show that Shem, Ham, and Japheth represent the triune parts of a man, Shem represents the Spirit, Ham represents the Body, and Japheth represents the Soul. And history validates this. The Shemites have been responsible for the great religions such as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. The Hamites have been responsible for practical technology and inventions, while the Japhethites have had a leading role in philosophy and science. Now these are general statements, but generally they are very true.

As for Ham's descendents being servants, this is not altogether as terrible as it seems. The Lord himself said of servants;

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


So, the Lord Jesus himself exalted the role of the servant, as he was a servant himself.

That said, being a servant is a very hard and difficult occupation. And the descendants of Ham in many respects have not enjoyed the fruits of their own labors.

One of the articles I read showed the inventions that have benefitted all mankind that have come from the descendants of Ham.

Look at this impressive list of accomplishments of the Hamitic peoples

Quote:


Accomplishments of the Hamitic Peoples

Mechanical Principles and Applications

Block and Tackle
Gimbal suspension
Domes and arches
Whiffletrees
Suspension bridges
Lock gates and lifts
Windlass
Cantilever principle
Fire pistons
Gears Chain drives
Lathes
Pulleys Catapults
Clockwork
Steam engine principle mechanism

Materials

Copper
Bellows systems of all types
Bronze
Glass (including possibly a malleable glass)
Iron
Pottery, china and porcelain
Cast Iron
Lenses of several types
Steel
Charcoal and carbon black
Cement
Glues and preservatives
Dyes and inks
Shellacs, varnishes and enamels
Rubber
Casting methods of all kinds including
Case hardening hollow casting
Gold and silver working including beading, repoussé, sheet, wire and the plating of metals.

Building Techniques, Tools and Materials

Nails
Window materials, including glass
Saws
Door hinges and locks
Hammers
Protective coatings
Brace and Bit
Street drainage systems
Sandpaper
Sewage disposal on a wide scale
Rope saws
Running water in piped systems
Carborundum
Piped gas for heating
Stoves
Central heating systems
Plans and Maps
Surveying instruments
Drills (including diamond drills)
Buildings of all types, including genuine skyscrapers and earthquake proof construction

Fabrics and Weaving, etc.

Linen
Voile
Ikat or tie-dyeing
Cotton
Tapestry
Feather and fur garments
Silk
Batique
Tailored clothing
Wool
Needles
Double-faced cloth
Felt
Thimbles
Knitted and crocheted materials
Lace
Parchment
All types of thread
Netting
Guaze
Dyes of all kinds
Mechanical looms
Silk screen methods of decoration
Invisible mending
Ropes up to 12 inches in diameter
Flying shuttles
Netting shuttles

Writing, Printing, etc.

Inks
Textbooks
Chalks
Encyclopedias
Pencils and crayons
Libraries and cataloguing systems
Block printing
Literary forms (fables, etc.)
Movable type
Envelopes and postal systems
All kinds of paper
Paper of all kinds, including coated stock.
Scripts (Sumerian, Cuneiform and its successors, Egyptian, Hittite, Minoan, Chinese, Easter Island, Indus Valley, and Mayan)

Foodstuffs

Aloes
Chickle gum
Tomato
Pears
Cascara
Sweet Potato
Kidney beans
Pineapple
Prickly pear
Cereals
Chili pepper
Squash
Cocoa
Cashew and peanut
Corn
Coffee
Manioc
Beans
Tea
Artichoke
Strawberries
Tobacco
Potato
Arrowroot

Animals Domesticated

Pigs
Dogs
Llama
Horses
Cats
Alpaca
Fowl
Camels
Cows, sheep, etc.

Foodgathering Methods

The use of countless fish poisons and animal intoxicants
The use of other tamed animals to catch 'game':
dogs and cormorants for fishing, cats for hunting,
various birds of prey such as eagles, falcons, etc.
Elephants for labour and land clearance
Traps and nets of all kinds

Travel Conveyances, etc.

Compass
Canals and locks
Road Rollers
Skis
Sternpost rudder
Wheelbarrows
Toboggans
All types of water craft
Stirrups
Snowshoes
Cement paving
Wheeled vehicles
Travois
Surfaced Roads
Wheels: solid, spoked, rimmed and tired
Watertight-compartment construction for boats
Harness for domestic animals
Use of birds for navigation
Bridges of all types: suspension, cantilever, arch, etc.

"Aircraft"

Balloons
Gliders
Helicopters
Kites
Parachutes
Jet Propulsion
Weather-signalling and forecasting

Cosmetics, etc.

Mirrors
Nail polishes
Toothbrushes
Wigs
Scissors
Shaving equipment
Combs
Powders and ointments
Jewelry of all kinds

Mathematics

Geometry
A kind of logarithms
Trigonometry
Concept of zero
Algebra
Use of place system

Trade and Commerce

Paper money and coinage
Systems of inspection
Banking houses
Trade regulations and price-fixing
Postal systems
Wage regulation and compensation systems
Loans with interest
Accounting systems and formal contracts
Weights and measures

Medical and Surgical Practices and Instruments

Gargles
Anaesthetics
Lotions
Snuffs
Soaps
Ointments
Inhalators
Splints
Plasters
Enemas
Quinine
Adhesive tapes
Fumigators
Poultices
Tourniquet
Suppositories
Decoctions
Surgical stitching
Insecticides
Infusions
Bandages
Truth serums
Pills
Curare
Cocaine
Troches
Trephination
Caesarian operations
Vaccine for smallpox
Cascara and other emetics
Tranquillizing drugs
Animal-stupefying drugs
Surgical instruments of all kinds; knives, forceps, tweezers, etc.
Identification and treatment of, hundreds of common diseases and injuries including brain and eye operations and surgery in general.

Household Furnishing

Hammocks
Gas cookers
Fans
Rocking stools
Rotary querns
Clocks
Folding beds
Lamps
Running water
Oil stoves
Space heaters
A form of "telephone"
Whistling pots and kettles
Go-carts and other toys for children

Games

Wrestling
Revolving stages for theaters
Rubber ball games
Lacrosse
Numerous board games (chess, checkers, etc.)

Warfare

Weapons of all types
Bows and crossbows
Bolas
Rifled weapons
Guided missiles
Body armour
Aerial bombardment
Poison gases and toxic agents
Flame throwers
Gun powder
Bows and crossbows
A repeating bow, a form of machine gun
Heavy artillery (catapults of several kinds)

Musical Instruments

Wind instruments (organ, pipes, horns, flutes, etc.)
Stringed instruments (various modifications of the harp)
Percussion instruments (tubes, bars, stones, bells, and diaphragms)
Tuning forks of various kinds

Miscellaneous

Umbrellas
Safety pins
Straws for drinking
Spectacles
Calendars
Telescopes (?)
Snow goggles
Cigar holders
Finger printing for identification

So, as you can see, this is an incredibly impressive list of inventions and technology by Hamitic peoples that has served and benefitted all mankind.

And we even see the sons of Noah in the crucifixtion of Jesus. He was condemned to death by the Semites (Jews), his cross was carried by a Hamite;

Matt 27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

And Jesus was put to death by a Japhethite (Romans).

So even in account we see the three sons of Noah, named in order of Shem, Ham, and Japheth as they always are. But Simon of Cyrene did not do evil here as the Jews and Romans did. He carried the cross, again, he was a servant.

So, I think scripture does support this theory to a great degree.

Brother Tim 07-10-2009 07:55 PM

Quote:

So, I think scripture does support this theory to a great degree.
The plain "black and white" of the Scriptures, that is, the simple, clear words, do no such thing!

greenbear 07-10-2009 08:39 PM

Brother Winman,

I think your post has a very interesting perspective. S-H-J representing the triune parts of man, and Christ as a man becoming a servant thus identifying Himself with those in the most humble circumstances, even that of Canaan, Ham's youngest son.

I wouldn't be surprised if all three lines were represented at the cross as you propose. There was a large Jewish settlement in Cyrene and Simon was probably a Jew come to Jerusalem for the Passover but still, I think there is something there. There are Ethiopian and other non-European Jews living in Israel today.

Proverbs 17:2 A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

Jennifer

tonybones2112 07-10-2009 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Tim (Post 23653)
The plain "black and white" of the Scriptures, that is, the simple, clear words, do no such thing!

I agree. Many members of my family have been "servants" of General Motors, none were ever beaten for being late for work. None were ever whipped with a bullwhip for being sick and missing work. None were ever killed if they left GM, and none were dragged behind a moving pickup truck for once being a GM "servant". many will say I am drawing an "unfair analogy" here. Get married in America, get a "mortgage" and pay back 3 times what you borrow, fight with schools, "health plans", state, local, and federal "governments" to hold onto a fraction of what you earn, live in a country where you don't own the clothes on your back because the IRS does,(stop paying your "property taxes" and find out who really owns your home), talk to a million people who work at McDonalds and can;t afford to eat at McDonalds, tell them they are not slaves and you might get a McMilkshake in the face.

Eph. 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.
9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Col 4:1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

No curse to be a servant was placed on "the descendants of Ham", the curse was on Canaan's descendants, that they would serve the children of Israel, and the prophecy never came to pass, instead of making the Canaanites servants, Israel adopted their culture and religion.

It never ceases to amaze me that folks stand united when it comes to the Deity of Christ, His sacrifice for sins, the inspiration and primacy of the King James Bible, and when the topic of dispensational truth, the errors of denominational traditions, and the true place of the Negro race in the scheme of things, then people are stricken just as dumb as a sack of untuned banjos.

Grace and peace friends

Tony

greenbear 07-10-2009 09:29 PM

Call me esoteric if you will but I believe the Bible is simple enough for a child to understand but so deep that I believe we will study it for all eternity without plumbing the depths of it.

Bro. Parrish 07-10-2009 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbiwolski (Post 23648)
I respect Dr. Ruckman. Is it okay for me to do that, Tony?

It was a blessing to travel to MD two nights last month and hear him preach again. I forgot how funny he was when preaching. He preached "A Great Woman" and "W.A.T.C.H." to whom it may concern.

:amen: Amen brother!
As I mentioned on another thread, Brother Ruckman is still preaching with great power, truth and yes—humor! If you have never heard Dr. Ruckman preach a sermon in person, rattling off huge portions of scripture from memory while creating one of his 8 foot long full color chalk drawings YOU ARE MISSING A GREAT BLESSING. I have never heard a man teach the Bible like Bro. Ruckman, he has stood as a warrior for the KJV (with no apologies to any scholar or school) longer than many have been alive, and he's been a great blessing to me over the years. In my experience, when Ruckman preaches he captures the entire audience no matter the age, every person in the building is absolutely enthralled by the message from God's Word, it's peculiar—he delivers the message with authority like only a small handful of men I have seen over the years. He is getting old but still looks great, and with his hand to hand combat training I'm sure he could easily kill me with a spoon or his finger nail. If you have to travel a little and get a hotel room to hear him preach, do it... it's worth it. I encourage everyone to experience some of his services in person before Dr. Pete goes home to be with the Lord... here is his schedule:

July 11-12, 2009
Atauga Heights Baptist Church
1393 Highway 31-N
Prattville, AL 36067
Pastor Mike Matheny
(334) 322-3222

August 7-9, 2009
Bible Believer's
Baptist Church
3857 Hartley Road
Jacksonville, FL 32223
Pastor David Peacock
(904) 260-8370

chette777 07-11-2009 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 23646)
We were prevented bodily from getting within proximity of Dr. Ruckman by "Dr." Estep and two young men who were bodybuilders, Ruckman's bodyguards. When I made the statement to the men and women with me that let's not waste anymore time and head for the street ministry, one of the young men made an obscene remark I won;t repeat for the sake of the women in this forum. I won't repeat it for the sake of the men, either.

This is so weird,

there was a poster last year who had made this exact same claim and stated the same story almost word for word.

I think that poster was banned for either being a sophist arguer or a Bible corrector.

or was it "Just a Thought" who shared that same story?

Does any one else remember who it was who shared that same story. the other poster I think posted the comment the Bodybuilder made though.

Bro. Parrish 07-11-2009 07:42 AM

Chette,
I was wondering, have you ever met Bro. Ruckman or been to one of his services?

Brother Tim 07-11-2009 08:09 AM

:focus:
C'mon guys! There are a dozen threads on the forum where Dr.Ruckman can be discussed.

Bro. Parrish 07-11-2009 08:21 AM

Sorry Tim, don't mean to hijack but I was talking to Chette. See I have met Bro. Ruckman, and I have seen him preach many times, in many different churches in different cities all over the place going back well over 25 years. And I have never even once seen him use "body guards." :rolleyes:

Winman 07-11-2009 09:39 AM

Boy, I think people completely misunderstood what I was saying.

I agree 100%, that the curse was on Canaan.

That said, in the history of man, those peoples who could be traced with accuracy to either Shem, Ham, or Japheth do seem to have certain characteristics. This is not saying anything detrimental whatsoever about any family. All are equally important and have made significant contributions to mankind.

The descendents of Shem have generally been religious or spiritual types. The great religions of the world for the most part originated with these people.

The descendents of Ham have been people "of the earth" to a degree. They were not so interested in religion, or even science. They are the doers. They invent practical solutions to practical problems. So, as I showed in my post, they developed machines, tools, ships, medicines, domesticated animals for use and much more.

Those of Japheth have been the thinkers. Not spiritual thinkers, but philosophy and science. The Greeks are a great example. They have been important in law and government.

Now, these are all general statements, but I believe there is much truth in them. Of course there are exceptions to this general observation. And as time has passed all the families of man have mixed and clear distinctions can no longer be made.

But in no way am I saying anything derogatory about any people. All have made important contributions to mankind. As a man is not complete without spirit, body, and soul, mankind needs these three types to be successful.

The article also pointed out that the Gospel also went out in order to the Shemites (the Jews), the Hamites (the Ethopian eunuch), and Japhethites (Cornelius).

Yes, I know the scriptures do not say these things directly. But scriptures can say many things indirectly that are still true.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

When Jesus said this, there were no NT scriptures. In the OT there are no direct scriptures which tell us distinctly about Jesus. But the story is there. When Abraham was ordered to sacrifice his son Isaac, when Abraham said;

Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

This was the scriptures testifying about Jesus. But it was indirect.

Diligent 07-11-2009 10:34 AM

Gee, how nice, another thread turned into a debate over Ruckman.

Well, at least this proves this isn't a "Ruckmanite" forum. There's at least a silver lining...


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