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-   -   Hate the sin, love the sinner (https://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1473)

Amanda S. 07-21-2009 11:20 PM

Wow...I am sure that post took awhile to type out!

You certainly did a great job of showing how disjointed my question and reasoning was! LoL

In post #28 I clarified my jumble thoughts and rephrased the question. The others discoursing with me seemed able to understand what I was wishing to discuss. Sorry you got lost in the mess!

Remember where you did a long post and stated that through many of the posts you were "learning"?? That is what I was doing here.

I have no interest in this thread at the moment because Bro. Paul and Bro. Forrest did a fine job of reconciling all the Scriptures.

Thanks though for all the verses you posted! Praise the Lord for His unspeakable gift. Amen!?

greenbear 07-22-2009 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24555)
Wow...I am sure that post took awhile to type out!

You certainly did a great job of showing how disjointed my question and reasoning was! LoL

In post #28 I clarified my jumble thoughts and rephrased the question. The others discoursing with me seemed able to understand what I was wishing to discuss. Sorry you got lost in the mess!

Remember where you did a long post and stated that through many of the posts you were "learning"?? That is what I was doing here.

I have no interest in this thread at the moment because Bro. Paul and Bro. Forrest did a fine job of reconciling all the Scriptures.

Thanks though for all the verses you posted! Praise the Lord for His unspeakable gift. Amen!?

Amanda,

I understand not having interest in a particular thread anymore. And I sure do remember learning throughout a post where I wasn't sure of my position. I've also been wrong on some posts. I just didn't see how your position changed from Post #21 to Post #28.



Quote:

I think we have proven that God does hate the wicked and those who reject His offer of love at the cross. I do not believe that God hates ALL sinners, just some. But neither do I believe He loves all sinners, only those redeemed by the blood of the lamb.
You are saying that God hates unsaved sinners.



Quote:

Quote:
21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.
Quote:
Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Quote:
Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
You quote verses from David where he professes hatred for those who hate the Lord.
Next you quote two parallel verses which have nothing to do with God or man hating the wicked.



Quote:

And to just throw this out there I honestly do not think that the average church age Christian could hate righteously. Most of us are carnal and we have a long way to go in loving God let alone worrying about the wicked.
You are saying that the reason we shouldn't hate the wicked (unsaved) is because we can't hate righteously because most of us are carnal.




In addition to the scriptures in my last post I would like to add this passage:

Quote:

Matthew 5:43-48
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
God loves all sinners.

May God bless you,

Jennifer

Amanda S. 07-22-2009 07:26 AM

Good morning Jennifer,

Again, after thinking through this thread and comparing Scripture I believe Bro. Forrest and I are in agreement on this issue.

Quote:

I said - God does hate the wicked and those who reject His offer of love at the cross.

You said - You are saying that God hates unsaved sinners.
Show me a passage that says God loves present tense those who reject His Son.

Please keep the love verses in the context of the lost.

The Bible says He hates ALL the workers of iniquity.

Quote:

You quote verses from David where he professes hatred for those who hate the Lord.
Next you quote two parallel verses which have nothing to do with God or man hating the wicked.
OK. I'm sorry. You've succesfully shown that I cannot post intelligently. But granted I did invite anyone to do this by saying "Again, feel free to pick apart my thinking" LoL

I've admitted in this thread things such as "And to just throw this out there" - "I clearly didn't phrase it that way" - "thinking this through" - "I am afraid I did a poor job" - "I jumbled thoughts and Scripture quotations." there are more such like phrases. You are not pointing anything out to me that I am making no sense LoL But thankfully Bro. Forrest and Bro. Paul understood what I was trying express and answered my questions.

So please, if you are trying to understand this "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner" idea please ask Bro. Forrest and Bro. Paul as they are clearly better equipped to answer your questions. If you want to know my position read their posts they will do a much better job at explaining my position. :)

Quote:

Jennifer you said: You are saying that the reason we shouldn't hate the wicked (unsaved) is because we can't hate righteously because most of us are carnal.
Nooooooo...I said that even if we WERE to hate the wicked that I don't think most of us COULD do it righteously. To quote post #37:

Bro. Forrest you asked:

Quote:

Quote Bro Forrest:
I’m not convinced that now those of us who in Christ and are under grace should ever hate individuals who sin. Perhaps you know of a verse that instructs those of us who are saved, to hate the sinner.

Myself:
No, I know not of any Scripture that says such.
In the discussion between Bro. Forrest and Bro. Paul I do not think either one of them thought I was saying we should hate the unsaved!? But was honestly asking...and then as the thread went on determined with their help we should not. You said the reason we shouldn't hate is that we couldn't. Nooooo...the reason we shouldn't hate because we are not told to do so.

As to the passage you quoted in Matthew...That's a great passage but what point are you trying to make?

Amanda S. 07-22-2009 07:59 AM

Let me just say one more thing...My husband who as I've said before knows the Bible like the back of his hand believes that God doesn't hate all unsaved. He hates the especially wicked.

In the Old Testament there appears to be 3 different types of people...the righteous, the wicked and the regular sinner? LoL

He loves His children (the saved) and while he doesn't necessarily hate the unsaved He doesn't love them as His own. His love with the unsaved is more benevolent...He doesn't wish them to perish, but is longsuffering and full of mercy.

But there are those who He hates...He still hates the same group "the wicked" in the OT and in the NT the wicked is called something else...?

In my mind I am picturing our earthly fathers. My husband as a father loves his children, but that doesn't mean he hates all the children that are not his...but neither does he love them in the same sense that he loves his children. He wishes them no ill will.

I hesitated to put this out there as I've not studied it out and only asked him in passing.

Please though, do not dissect this particular post. I am not teaching anything nor stating what I believe but giving another point of view as I understood it.

If there is a reply to this post by chopping it up and making it look ludicrous I will not reply. But if as Bro. Forrest did earlier and just post the evidence of why this is wrong I'd consider continuing in this thread. :)

God bless!

custer 07-22-2009 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 24152)
It's not about reconciling the Bible and Ghandi. It matters not what Ghandi says or said.

It's about the Pauline Epistles and the rest of the word.

Psalm 5:5 is true. But in the OT, the words "sinners" is used mainly of the gentiles and those israelites that chose to worship idols. In the NT, it becomes a common term for all men. Psalm 5:5 is also written BEFORE the crucifixion

The Pauline Epistles and the gospel and epistles of John speak of Jesus being propitious to the point of infinite. Therefore, if Jesus is the propitiation, and God is satisfied with the blood sacrifice, there is no need for God to be angry NOW, as all man can freely come to Him, because Christ has removed the barrier between God and man. Throughout the Johannine & Pauline Epistles, we find many verses on love. John 3:16, Romans 5:8, Galatians 2:20 to name a few. God's love to all sinners was demonstrated on the cross, and God's eyes are fixed upon the blood and upon His Son, which appeases his wrath. However, when a man stands before the Throne of God without the blood, that's a whole other story, and I wouldn't want to be that man in that day.

There is nothing stopping a sinner coming to God today, because God is satisfied with Jesus Christ. God is not mad.

This teaching that God is continually mad is Roman Catholic. I find little scripture except for two Psalms. It seems whenever this topic comes up, rightly dividing gets thrown out the window and God becomes a God of hate, because of two verses written in and for another dispensation.

HOWEVER, having said that, I do not think it is acceptable to tell people that they are OKAY IN their sin. But rather than tell them "God hates you" as some streetpreachers do, a better solution would be to first warn them of coming judgment because of who they are (sinners), and what they have done (sins), and then to expain God's grace to them this hour, and not to tarry, for the blood is there for them to wash in, but when they stand before God, it won't be.

God bless
Luke

EDIT: An additional note - as I spoke before about rightly dividing, the context of the Psalm is "STAND IN GOD'S SIGHT". One could take this to mean - before the Great White Throne. There are many fools who unrighteously stand before God and blaspheme his name today, but nothing happens to them... but something will, when they are in God's sight.

The verses stating who the Lord hates (Ps. 5:5, 10:3, 11:5 - for starters) cannot be dismissed dispensationally! I cannot find one thing in the Bible that God says he hates at one time, but later changes his mind! (Like once something is an abomination TO GOD, it is always an abomination TO GOD!) For instance, look at the things that God hates in Prov. 6:16-19 and Prov. 8:13 - yes, we are in the "age of grace," but God STILL hates what he says he hates! (Also, notice in Prov. 6:16 that when the LORD "hate[s]" something, it IS an "abomination unto him." The abominations TO GOD are a great study; one in relation to this topic - Prov. 17:15.)

So, in addition to those things in Proverbs, the LORD hates "all workers of iniquity" and "the wicked and him that loveth violence" (Ps. 5:5 and 11:5,) and he abhors "the bloody and deceitful man" and "the covetous" (Ps. 5:6 and 10:3.) Jesus' attitude toward the wicked is consistent (of course) with God's HATE as evidenced in Matthew 22:18...he didn't show a lot of love to the Pharisees when he "perceived their wickedness!"

There is a difference in someone who commits a wicked act, feels remorse, and repents - and someone who IS "wicked." The "wicked" person that the LORD hates (present tense) is bent on wickedness; he loves to live that way and has no desire to change or repent. God loves a repentant sinner - he STILL hates an unrepentant one...John 3:36b - "...he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." This is present tense...this person is "condemned already" (John 3:18.)

"For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles..." (Rom. 2:24) - the people who "do not obey the truth" in Romans 2. God's name is blasphemed when people do not obey the truth every day (Isaiah 52:5,) and "God is angry with the wicked every day." (Ps. 7:11) The key is not a timetable when God might have stopped being angry - the key is to believe it like it's written - "God is angry WITH THE WICKED every day." It should not be hard to understand that God would be angry that his name is blasphemed, and in Isaiah 52 and Romans 2, it is happening continually every day!

Pam
www.custerfamilyfarm.com

greenbear 07-31-2009 01:33 AM

Amanda,

I don't expect you to listen to me. I only ask you to read and reread Tonybones' post #22. Then review the subjects that you have majored in on this Forum.

Amanda S. 07-31-2009 07:31 AM

Sis. Jennifer,

I listened and did as you suggested.

Now what?

pbiwolski 07-31-2009 12:10 PM

Seems what goes around, comes around...around here.

Here's some other's comments on the topic:

http://av1611.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91

greenbear 07-31-2009 03:19 PM

Here it is in a nutshell. The 2nd post in the first of two long threads.

Biblestudent's post # 2 in the older thread back in March of '08
Quote:

There are passages in Scripture similar to this:
1 Samuel 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
1 Samuel 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

God "repents", but God is not a man that he should "repent".

In answer to the question, I believe what the Bible says is so.
God hates the workers of iniquity that he would damn them to Hell
God loves the world that he gave his Son and save those who would believe.

The old thread morphed immediately into a debate about Calvinism because this issue is so closely intertwined with it. "God's hatred of the wicked", if taken out of it's context from within God's plan of salvation from everlasting, is closely related to Calvinism: God LOVES me but HATES that sinner.

Luke 18:9-14 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in

themselves that they were righteous, and despised others
: Two men

went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a

publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I

am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this

publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the

publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto

heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I

tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for

every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth

himself shall be exalted.


It is just another powerful snare the devil has set for christians to sidetrack them from being about their Father's business. Unbelievers aren't stupid. They know when inexplicable love is displayed to them and they are disconcerted by it; it's one of the things that reaches unbelievers, that God uses to open their hearts to consider His Son. On the other hand they have a strong nose for hypocrisy.

God is telling us He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He doesn't want them to go where they are headed. He has no pleasure in sinners being in hell for all eternity. He did not make Hell for man, but for the devil and his angels. Mt 25:41

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no

pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his

way and live
: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O

house of Israel?


God so loves mankind that He gave His only Son to become a man for all eternity, to die for our sins and to always be identified with us, and one with us.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,

that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have

everlasting life.

Jesus tells us what He and His Father are like, and tells us to be as He is.

Matthew 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy

neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies,

bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for

them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be

the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise

on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even

the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye

more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect,

even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect
.

God is love.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

The destruction of the wicked (His enemies) is His strange work. It is STRANGE to Him!

Isaiah 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be

wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work;

and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

When Jesus comes to rescue Israel and to judge the nations He marvels because He is alone. There is none to help. This is a picture of how we are not called to share in His wrath upon the wicked. He will accomplish it without our help.

Isaiah 63:3-5 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there

was none with me:
for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in

my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain

all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of

my redeemed is come. And I looked, and there was none to help; and I

wondered that there was none to uphold:
therefore mine own arm brought

salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

Amanda S. 07-31-2009 03:34 PM

Quote:

Jessica said: Here it is in a nutshell. The 2nd post in the first of two long threads.
Well, thank you Sister Jessica for summing that up for all of us. :)

I personally thought Bro. Forrest did a fine job of explaining the Scripture on this topic, but that is just my "opinion".

Be blessed!

Jassy 08-01-2009 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24938)
Well, thank you Sister Jessica for summing that up for all of us. :)

I personally thought Bro. Forrest did a fine job of explaining the Scripture on this topic, but that is just my "opinion".

Be blessed!

Sis Amanda,

WHO is Jessica??????
If you are referring to sis Greenbear, her name is Jennifer, and you have called her "Jessica" more than once. I've never seen her refer to you as Amelia or Andrea - she always calls you Amanda. Since you and she have had so many threads back and forth, I would think you'd remember her name.

Honor her as a sister in the Lord, by remembering her name. Her name is at the end of each of her posts.

Note: This is how sis Jennifer ends all of her posts here: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1Timothy 2:3-6
jennifer

Thank you for your kind consideration, sis!

Jassy

Amanda S. 08-01-2009 02:21 PM

Arrrrrgh!!!! :o

I am SO sorry! I do this with the name Jennifer/Jessica in real life too. I have a real life friend named Jessica and I called her Jennifer more than once.

I truly am sorry and apologize. It is very inconsiderate and there's no excuse.

Thank you Sister Jassy for pointing it out.

Jassy 08-01-2009 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24978)
Arrrrrgh!!!! :o

I am SO sorry! I do this with the name Jennifer/Jessica in real life too. I have a real life friend named Jessica and I called her Jennifer more than once.

I truly am sorry and apologize. It is very inconsiderate and there's no excuse.

Thank you Sister Jassy for pointing it out.

It's OK - it's an honest mistake sis. I'm sure it isn't intentional.

Jassy

greenbear 08-01-2009 05:19 PM

I never thought it was intentional! I have been called Jessica many, many times in my life. I like it better than my own name, almost. ;) No offense taken whatsoever.

Amanda S. 08-01-2009 06:37 PM

Thank you sister... :hug:

greenbear 08-01-2009 06:39 PM

NP, Amelia.....Amanda!!! :pound:

I LIKE that Smilie you used.

Jassy 08-01-2009 07:30 PM

It just warms my heart, sisters!! :happy::biggrin1:


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