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Tandi 06-01-2009 02:50 AM

Israel's New Covenant
 
This treatise represents my current views, which Tony asked me to share (see Bad Tracts thread posts 61 and 66). I am not trying to force my views on others but would appreciate thoughtful and prayerful consideration, critique, and comments.


ISRAEL’S NEW COVENANT
(A Hebraic Perspective)

By Renah (Tandi)


Shofar-Tekiah, Vol. 1, No 1, Aviv/Spring 2004
[Tekiah: one long blast with a clear tone]
Updated May 2009
http://tandi-1964.blogspot.com/



Introduction

A CUP OF COLD WATER

Many messengers emphasize the love of God – His loving-kindness, mercy, and grace. Yet, at times, in an effort to be gentle and loving, messages fail to convincingly and convictingly tell the stark truth. This writer tends to stress clear and simple truth and hopes this treatise is conveyed to the reader in the spirit of love and concern in which it is written. If it is deemed too harsh, I would appreciate receiving a critique, teaching me how to re-phrase the message in a more loving way. I tend to write in a “shofar” manner, hence the name of the publication. The shofar does not make a soothing sound. Rather, it sounds an alarm. I am alarmed at what is happening within Christianity today and how far it has strayed from its Hebrew roots. Friends and family members are not walking with the LORD as they should and are oblivious to their true condition. Who can return to the LORD who does not know he needs to return? Who can come back to the LORD who trusts that his “sinner’s prayer” will take him all the way to the Kingdom, though he has lost all interest in God’s Word, walks in weakness and failure, and could care less about the ways of the Lord and learning more about them. As for those who walk in sincerity with pure hearts before the LORD, who can return to their rich, Hebraic heritage who do not realize how warped Christianity has become over the centuries?

There are other resources that share the truths that I touch on more thoroughly, yet in a gentler, more palatable manner. They are like a refreshing cup of cold water to truth-seekers and Christians of open minds. My treatise is more like a cup of cold water thrown in your face. It may be unpleasant, but if it succeeds in waking the Remnant like a shrill alarm clock, it will have served its purpose. In any event, I don’t seem to know how to write any other way. Maybe this is my gift. I am a shofar, not a flute. May the LORD by His Spirit continue to bring the promised Restoration of the true faith in these Last Days, and may His people rise up to their destiny in the difficult yet awesome days ahead.


ISRAEL’S NEW COVENANT



Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt:
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD;
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, saith the LORD;
I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people....”
Jeremiah 31:31-33; Hebrews 8:7-10; 10:16


THE SHOCKING AND CONTROVERSIAL TRUTH

Christians claim to embrace the New Covenant. Yet many deny everything that defines the New Covenant! The New Covenant is made with Israel. Yet they deny they are Israelites subject to the promises and responsibilities of being Israelites. The New Covenant is made with the two houses of Israel. Yet they deny that there are two houses of Israel and claim that Israel is just Jews. They claim that “the Church” is a distinct entity from Israel with different rules and different promises altogether. Where is that in Scripture? The New Covenant is a covenant in which God’s laws are written in the hearts of those born again. Yet, Christians deny that God’s laws have any place in their lives and declare them obsolete! So, in effect, by “accepting Jesus,” yet rejecting the “New Covenant,” they have not entered into covenant status with the LORD at all! Please read this paragraph prayerfully again, comparing it with the verses above, and let it sink in.


WHO IS THE REAL JESUS?

What “Jesus” have Christians accepted when they do not accept His words, His ways, His covenant? The Bible speaks of “another Jesus,” one who Paul did not preach (2 Cor. 11:4). This is the “Jesus” that many have accepted as their “savior.” He is an imposter, a devil in disguise, an idol, a counterfeit, an antichrist. Those who truly accept the LORD Jesus Christ as their Saviour are accepting a Jewish Messiah, whose Hebrew name is YESHUA. They are grafted in to the Olive Tree, and become “chosen people,” adopted sons and citizens of the Israel of God (see Romans 11 and Galatians 6:16). They may, unbeknownst to them, be descended from the tribes of Israel scattered throughout the nations (see Hosea 1, Ezekiel 36, Romans 9, and James 1:1), or they may be Gentiles, or they may be Jews. All must enter through the same Door. All must be branches of the same Tree. There is One Shepherd, one flock, one faith (Jer. 23:3; Eph. 4:5; Jude 3-4).

The New Covenant is a renewed covenant. The Old Covenant, summarized in Ten Commandments on stone tablets, is now renewed, with these same commandments engraved in our hearts, giving us the inner motivation to obey them. Now we love His commandments. They are no longer grievous burdens. With “Jesus in our heart” we can do what once seemed too difficult (Phil. 4:13; Matt. 19:26). This is why the New Covenant is better than the Old (Hebrews 8:6-10).

Yeshua came to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21). If Christians continue to practice a lifestyle of sin, rejecting God’s ways, can this be called salvation from sin? Is it “faith” to believe in Jesus but not believe in His power to deliver from iniquity?

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord,
and do not the things which I say?
Luke 6:46


HELLFIRE INSURANCE ONLY?

Many Christians only want a “Get out of hell free” card. They want to continue to live a self-directed life in conformity to the ways of the world, the culture around them. They do not want to be a peculiar people (Deut. 14:2; Deut. 26:18; Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 2:9). They do not want to be ostracized from others. They do not want persecution, even though that is exactly what is promised to true disciples (2 Tim. 3:12). They think obedience is optional. They think commandment keeping is a relic from the past that is no longer relevant. What a rude awakening awaits them at the Judgment, when they will be judged by their works, whether they did good or evil (2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10-12). It is evil to reject the Covenant of the LORD God of Heaven, who sent His only begotten Son to make the ultimate sacrifice and atonement for sin, that we might be born again, grafted in to the Commonwealth of Israel (Eph. 2:12-13), partakers of the blessings of God, able to glorify God by living a lifestyle that honors Him with obedience to the wisdom of His ways (torah submission), not dishonoring Him with a lifestyle of debauchery and/or worldly-mindedness.

It is time for thee, LORD to work;
For they have made void thy law
Psalm 119:126


.........to be continued in further installments.........

Tandi 06-01-2009 03:12 AM

Israel's New Covenant (Part 2)
 
This treatise represents my current views, which Tony asked me to share (see Bad Tracts thread posts 61 and 66). I am not trying to force my views on others but would appreciate thoughtful and prayerful consideration, critique, and comments.


ISRAEL’S NEW COVENANT
(A Hebraic Perspective)

By Renah (Tandi)


Shofar-Tekiah, Vol. 1, No 1, Aviv/Spring 2004
[Tekiah: one long blast with a clear tone]
Updated May 2009
http://tandi-1964.blogspot.com/

Part 2 of 3.............


THE TEST OF PSALM 119

Let us examine ourselves, to see whether we are in the Faith (2 Cor. 13:5). Have we actually entered into the New Covenant? We must ask ourselves these pertinent questions:
• Do I love God’s law? (Hebrew: torah, i.e., instruction) “Oh how I love thy law; it is my meditation all the day.” (Psalm 119:97)

• Do I keep God’s law? “Thy testimonies are wonderful: therefore doth my soul keep them.” (Psalm 119:129)

• Do I rejoice in God’s law? “I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.” (Psalm 119:14)

• Have I chosen the way of truth? “I have chosen the way of truth...” (Psalm 119:30)

• Do I delight in God’s commandments? “Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight.” (Psalm 119:36)

• Do I hate every false way? “Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.” (Psalm 119:104)

• Do I have peace? “Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.” (Psalm 119:165)

• Do I believe God’s Word is true and that His commandments are not obsolete? “Thy Word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever.” (Psalm 119:160)

FALSE START?

It is possible that some Christians have been led astray by the rampant deceptions that Yeshua warned about (Mark 13:5,6) and have never entered in to the New Covenant. No wonder they are weak, with no love of the Scriptures, no love of God’s law, no power to obey. It is possible that the “Jesus” they accepted was the counterfeit. This “spirit” would have us believe that:
• Torah keeping is bondage and legalism (Refutation: Psalm 19:7-11; Ps.1:1-3).

• We cannot help willfully sinning every day (Refutation: Romans 6:1-2; Hebrews 10:26).

• God accepts our weaknesses and failures and does not expect us to be overcomers by His strength and grace (Refutation: Romans 1:17; 1 John 5:4-5; Rev. 3:5; 21:7).

• The Ten Commandments are obsolete and no longer in force for Christians (Refutation: Matt. 5:17-20; Romans 3:31).

• The only two commandments for Christians are to love God and one another, with no specifics on how to do that; it is just a feeling or emotion (Refutation: 1 John 3:18; Titus 1:16).

• Christians should just blend in with the world and be no different (Refutation: 1 John 2:15; James 1:27; 4:4).

• Jews are no longer God’s chosen people; they are going to hell unless they accept the paganized, antinomian “Jesus” and stop with the kosher and Sabbath keeping, etc. (Refutation: Romans 1:16; Romans 9-11).

• Salvation means we can keep on sinning because Jesus paid for our sins (Refutation: Romans 6:1-2).

• We can keep pagan holidays and traditions if we choose. God is no longer a jealous God (Refutation: Exodus 34:14; Deut. 4:16-24; 7:25-26; 12:29-32; 1 John 5:21; Acts 15:19-21).

• We do not need to spend time with God each day in His Word to be overcomers and successful in life (Refutation: Joshua 1:8; Psalm 1; Rev. 2-3).

• Blessings and curses have nothing to do with obedience and disobedience (Refutation: Deut. 28; Col. 3:25).

• There is no literal Millennial Kingdom of God on Earth that is coming soon (Refutation: Ezekiel 37; Zechariah 14; Rev. 19:11-20:6)

BACKSLIDERS

It is also possible that some Christians have accepted the true Jesus and His covenant and were born again, but have subsequently become backslidden, deceived, and on the wrong path at the present time. This is the test question:
• Do I remember God’s commandments even while backslidden? “I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.” (Psalm 119:76)
Does the truth of God’s Word continue to haunt you? Are you running, but finding no place to hide? You are still His, and He never stops seeking His lost sheep (Luke 15:3-7). Your life is probably quite tempestuous, full of the loving chastisement of the LORD (Jonah; Rev. 3:19). The scary part is, He has given you free will. You could in your rebellion go too far, and not find a place of repentance. I do not know where that line is crossed; I would not want to be too close to it (Pro. 24:16; Romans 1:18-32; 2 Cor. 13:5; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:4-6; Heb. 10:26-29, 38, 39).

This earthly life is the time of second chances. This life is a proving ground for eternity. Your life is a testimony to others, for better or worse. Even if it is a bungled mess now, if the change comes, and others see it, your life can be a testimony to the saving power and forgiveness that Yeshua brings and may be the catalyst that someone else needs to get right with God.

O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;
But in Me is thy help.....
O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God;
For thou hast fallen by thy iniquity....
I will heal their backsliding,
I will love them freely;
For mine anger is turned away from him.
Hosea 13:9; 14:1,4


SPIRITUAL WARFARE

There is a battle for your soul between the real Jesus and the counterfeit, the devil himself, who has many disguises and many deceptions. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve (Joshua 24:15). If Baal is God (paganized, counterfeit, lawless “jesus”), serve him. If the LORD (YHVH/YESHUA) is God, serve Him (1 Kings 18:21). Your lifestyle and beliefs will tell you whom you have been serving. It is true that in our own strength we can do nothing, yet we can choose the fear of the LORD (Pro. 1:29). We can choose to be made righteous. We can allow the LORD to do the transforming work in our lives. This is not a passive activity but a conscious choice day by day. Choose the way of the LORD, forsaking your own way. Choose life! (Deut. 30:19).


......to be continued.............

Tandi 06-01-2009 03:29 AM

Israel's New Covenant (Part 3)
 
This treatise represents my current views, which Tony asked me to share (see Bad Tracts thread posts 61 and 66). I am not trying to force my views on others but would appreciate thoughtful and prayerful consideration, critique, and comments.


ISRAEL’S NEW COVENANT
(A Hebraic Perspective)

By Renah (Tandi)


Shofar-Tekiah, Vol. 1, No 1, Aviv/Spring 2004
[Tekiah: one long blast with a clear tone]
Updated May 2009
http://tandi-1964.blogspot.com/

Part 3 of 3.............


DISPENSATIONALISM

Another group of Christian believers are those who go only so far in their appreciation of the Scriptures and the commandments of God. They have been indoctrinated in dispensationalism, and, as a result, have a blind spot. They love the LORD, but “see through a glass darkly” regarding Torah and the Commonwealth of Israel. They think the “law of liberty” is freedom from Torah rather than understanding that Torah is liberty (freedom) from the bondage of sin (James 1:25; 2:8-12). In other words, the commandments of God are liberating when properly understood and practiced by grace through faith, in newness of spirit, “for the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good” (Romans 7:12). These sincere believers just need to take a closer look at what the Scriptures clearly say, without looking through a dispensationalist prism that distorts the truth. They need to study the Scriptures from a Hebraic perspective, which will open up to them a wealth of new understanding and insight.


MISSING LINK

Life in the New Covenant is a wonderful life. There is joy unspeakable and peace that passes all understanding (1 Peter 1:18; Phil. 4:7). Torah is not bondage, but blessing, wisdom, and “all her paths are peace” (Pro. 3:13-18). It is the missing link in living the Christian life as it is meant to be lived. The enemy of our soul has stolen Torah from us and given us an emaciated Christianity. We fault Jews for rejecting Jesus....and they fault us for rejecting Torah. Both are essential (Rev. 12:17; 14:12). Yeshua taught that we must keep the commandments and follow Him (John 14:15; 15:10; Matt. 4:4; 19:16-26; Luke 6:46).

He that saith, I know Him,
and keepeth not His commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


The path that leads unto life is not one way for Jews (Torah) and another way for Christians (Jesus). It is one way for all. Yeshua is THE Way, the Word (Torah) made flesh (John 1). Someone may say, “The Hebraic way is too foreign.” Yet it is our ways that are foreign to the LORD. The word “Hebrew” means “one who crossed over” (the Euphrates River from Babylon). Our father Abraham was the first Hebrew. We become Hebrews by leaving Babylon behind (the world/paganism), crossing over completely from the Kingdom of Darkness to the Kingdom of Light. When we “straddle the river” with one foot in Babylon and one foot in the Kingdom of God, we go nowhere. A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways (James 1:8). No wonder the double-minded and wavering do not receive anything from the LORD and do not experience transcendence (see James 1:5-8).


RESTORATION

Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?
by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
With a whole heart have I sought thee:
O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Thy word have I hid in mine heart,
that I might not sin against thee.
Psalm 119:9-11


To those who seek restoration, read prayerfully all of Psalm 119. You just may find a place of repentance as you meditate in these inspired Scriptures. Many times understanding comes after obedience, so do not let lack of understanding keep you from stepping out in faith and embracing Torah. Please do not say you are not convicted if you are not spending at least one hour a day looking in the mirror of God’s Word (Joshua 1:8; Matt. 26:40-41; Hebrews 4:12; James 4:7-10). Have you read God’s Word from cover to cover more than once and from year to year? If not, Bible Pathway has an excellent Bible reading plan and daily devotional. This resource is a good starting place and is not antinomian (lawless) in its tone and commentary.


FINAL THOUGHTS

God allowed terror and tragedy to strike America on 9-11. Many said it was a wake-up call. Just what message were we supposed to get out of this horrific event? One thought that comes to mind is to turn those numbers around (Hebrew is read from right to left) and take certain Scriptures to heart that American Christians have ignored for far too long. 911 reversed is 119, as in Psalm 119. It is curious that Psalm 1 and Psalm 19 also exalt Torah.

Has the original, apostolic faith been “hijacked” since about the 2nd century? Have we been following the wrong religion? Have we been following the teachings and practices of the Church Fathers rather than our fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Are we going to “crash and burn” as a result? I have not seen much evidence of soul searching and repentance in this nation since 9/11/01. If, God forbid, further terrorist acts are carried out in America and our enemies triumph over us, will it be said as in Jeremiah’s day:

This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God,
nor receiveth correction.....the land shall be desolate.


See Jeremiah 7 for a comparison of Judah’s transgressions with those of America today and the chastisement that ensued. Does God change? (Mal. 3:6; Heb. 13:8). See also 2 Kings 18:11-12 regarding Israel’s Assyrian captivity for their transgressions.

If God-fearing Americans would truly repent, we can count on this promise:

If My people,
which are called by My name,
shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face,
and turn from their wicked ways;
then will I hear from heaven,
and will forgive their sin,
and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14


We have become outraged with the wicked ways of those who make no profession of faith, yet have failed to acknowledge our own transgressions against the God we claim to love and serve. Let us start with our “I”dolatry -- the “I will believe and do whatever I please” syndrome.

In those days there was no king in Israel:
Every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25


Torah is foundational. It is quoted throughout the New Testament. Deuteronomy alone is quoted 80 times. The phrase, “it is written” occurs 66 times in the Bible, 63 times in the New Testament. It could not be clearer that, far from being obsolete, Torah is vital. We ignore it at our own peril. “He that turneth away his ear from hearing the Law (Torah), even his prayer shall be abomination” (Pro. 28:9). Paul, “the apostle to the Gentiles,” declared the (Old Testament) Scriptures profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16). He continued to keep Torah, including sabbaths and feasts, and urged Gentile believers to “be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1). When are we going to realize that God gave us One Bible, a continuing, non-contradictory story from Genesis to Revelation. Man divided it into “Old Testament” and “New Testament” as if they are two separate Bibles, one for Jews and one for Christians. Does it make sense that God would require faithfulness of some people (Jews, tribulation saints) and let other people (“the church in the age of grace”) get a free pass to Heaven no matter how wicked, unbelieving, or backslidden they are? I have heard some say that in this dispensation we do not have to endure to the end to be saved, and that we will be raptured out before any severe testing (tribulation). Does God change? How unfair of Him to require of others what He does not require of this last, Laodicean, lukewarm generation! We must repent of wrongly dividing the Word of Truth, especially the kind of “I am of Paul/Somebody else’s mail” hyper-dispensationalism that slices, dices, and chops up the Scriptures to oblivion, even the very words of our Lord Jesus Christ, destroying His authority in our life! What kind of a twisted Gospel message would negate the teachings of Jesus Himself!?


CLOSING PRAYER

May the LORD continue to have mercy and patience with His wayward children. May the prophesied “spirit of Elijah” turn our hearts back to our true fathers, the Biblical patriarchs (Malachi 4:5-6) and may we remember the words of the prophet Zechariah:

Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
In those days it shall come to pass
that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,
even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying,
we will go with you,
for we have heard
that God is with you.
Zechariah 8:23

Like a lilac breeze
in the month of Ziv
may the Spirit of the LORD breathe on us, and renew us
and restore us in the path of righteousness
For His Name’s sake

In Yeshua our Messiah


Comments, questions, and critique of this treatise are welcome. Let us dialogue.

Greektim 06-01-2009 06:01 AM

Can you offer any proof where the Church is equated with the House of Israel or Judah? Also, can you offer any proof where the Church is fulfilling the New Covenant? Keep in mind that similarities do not make equals.

Also keep in mind that if the New Covenant is to be fulfilled w/ Israel as Scripture says in the restoration of Israel as Scripture says with an outpouring of the HOly Spirit as Scripture says based on the mediator of the New Covenant who is the basis of the New Covenant through His blood, wouldn't it be possible that positionally, the Church has entered into some of those Millennial blessings b/c we are linked through Jesus Christ? After all, Col. 1:13 very well could be a positional truth about the Church in Christ's future Kingdom.

One other thing...what do you do with the land references that are mentioned with the NC? If you are fulfilling the NC now, then where is your land fulfillment?

George 06-01-2009 09:18 AM

Re: "Israel's New Covenant" - BEWARE HERESY
 
From the old curmudgeon : A message to all genuine Bible believers on the Forum,

A review of the "belief system" held by Tandi (now "Renah") reveals a perverse interpretation of the Holy Scriptures where all things that are exclusive to the Pauline doctrine for the New Testament church are twisted, perverted, and brought under a "Hebraic" understanding of the Scriptures.

From the very beginning of Tandi/Renah’s joining the AV1611 Bible Forums I was "uneasy" about this woman. I have said that she is a "JUDAIZER" and now she has PROVEN my point!

This is an out and out HERESY and Tandi/Renah is a HERETIC! Now some of the Christians on this Forum do not "like" my blunt speech, but we are all adults here (or we are supposed to be), and calling something (or someone) that is contrary to “the Scripture of truth” by its proper name should not be considered bad manners. And if Christians weren't so shot-through with Humanistic Psychiatry and Psychology we would all be of the same mind and of the same judgment on these issues. [
1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.]

This woman Tandi/Renah is basically saying that most of us on this Forum are wrong in our beliefs. To be more specific she is saying that we have embraced a LIE and are trusting the WRONG Jesus! He’s NOT Jesus – He’s “YESHUA”! If you don’t believe me, read her words (very carefully) – because they are subtle, crafty, and very cleverly put together:

Quote:

"My treatise is more like a cup of cold water thrown in your face. It may be unpleasant, but if it succeeds in waking the Remnant like a shrill alarm clock, it will have served its purpose. In any event, I don’t seem to know how to write any other way. Maybe this is my gift. I am a shofar, not a flute. May the LORD by His Spirit continue to bring the promised Restoration of the true faith in these Last Days, and may His people rise up to their destiny in the difficult yet awesome days ahead." {Maybe this is my gift?} :confused:
This woman Tandi/Renah (it would nice if she would make up her mind) has deigned to INSTRUCT all of us poor, misguided, and ignorant Christians in “a more perfect way” – much like “Priscilla” of old. The problem is the “Priscilla” of Scripture never acted on her own; she was always with her HUSBAND each and every time she is mentioned in the New Testament [Acts 18:2,18,26; Romans 16:3; 1Corinthians 16:19]. We have NOT heard one little “peep” out of Tandi/Renah’s HUSBAND, I wonder WHY? It couldn’t possibly be that Tandi/Renah is OUT OF ORDER – could it? :confused:

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived,
but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Quote:

THE SHOCKING AND CONTROVERSIAL TRUTH {by inference – We don’t know the REAL “TRUTH”}
Christians claim to embrace the New Covenant. Yet many deny everything that defines the New Covenant! The New Covenant is made with Israel. Yet they deny they are Israelites subject to the promises and responsibilities of being Israelites. The New Covenant is made with the two houses of Israel. Yet they deny that there are two houses of Israel and claim that Israel is just Jews. They claim that “the Church” is a distinct entity from Israel with different rules and different promises altogether. Where is that in Scripture? The New Covenant is a covenant in which God’s laws are written in the hearts of those born again. Yet, Christians deny that God’s laws have any place in their lives and declare them obsolete! So, in effect, by “accepting Jesus,” yet rejecting the “New Covenant,” they have not entered into covenant status with the LORD at all! Please read this paragraph prayerfully again, comparing it with the verses above, and let it sink in.”
Tandi/Renah has so little spiritual discernment and understanding that she cannot distinguish between the “New Covenant” that the Lord is going to establish with His People Israel (genuine Jews/Hebrews/Israelites) and that “covenant” that He made with His church (where there is neither Jew nor Gentile).
[Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the
blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.]

I am not going to waste my time refuting Tandi/Renah’s “blasphemy” with my usual Scriptural defense – it should be plain to all that this woman is not just “mistaken”, but that she has embraced a “false teaching” and is in fact a “false teacher”!

Tandi/Renah is under the false impression that God has actually CHANGED her heart (and the hearts of those people who are of the same perverse persuasion) like He is going to CHANGE the hearts of the people of Israel WHEN He institutes the New Covenant that He will make with them at the beginning of His Millennial Reign on earth.

Ezekiel 36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of
Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of
Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of
Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Brethren - Do you think or believe that this prophesy is talking about born again Christians? Did we live in the LAND of Israel? Were we “scattered” amongst the nations of the world? Has God gathered us (Christians) back into “your own land”? Has God given us a NEW HEART YET? You could have fooled me! :rolleyes:

Remember what I said a little while ago?

The third KEYto Understanding the Bible: THE JEW {Hebrew - Israelite}
{Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Moses, Joshua, the Judges, David, Solomon, the Kings, and the Prophets, etc. - All Jews i.e. Hebrews, Israelites.}

Please keep in mind this simple Scriptural FACT = an Undeniable Truth

Almost all: False Teaching or Perverted Doctrine or Heresy

Comes from: GOD’S COMMANDMENTS – Given to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}

That have been EXPROPRIATED by - A church
That have been EXPROPRIATED by - A cult
That have been EXPROPRIATED by - An individual

Or from: GOD’S PROMISES – Given to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}

That have been STOLEN by - A church
That have been STOLEN by -A cult
That have been STOLEN by -An individual

Or from: GOD’S PROPHECIES – Concerning the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}

That have been APPLIED to - A church
That have been APPLIED to -A cult
That have been APPLIED to -An individual

If this isn’t what Tandi/Renah is doing, then what is it? :confused:

I am not going to go much further with this expose, but let’s touch on the next bit of “blasphemy” that Tandi/Renah has “conjured up” for us:
Quote:

WHO IS THE REAL JESUS? {by inference – We have NOT believed in the REAL “JESUS”}
What “Jesus” have Christians accepted when they do not accept His words, His ways, His covenant? The Bible speaks of “another Jesus,” one who Paul did not preach (2 Cor. 11:4). This is the “Jesus” that many have accepted as their “savior.” He is an imposter, a devil in disguise, an idol, a counterfeit, an antichrist. Those who truly accept the LORD Jesus Christ as their Saviour are accepting a Jewish Messiah, whose Hebrew name is YESHUA. They are grafted in to the Olive Tree, and become “chosen people,” adopted sons and citizens of the Israel of God (see Romans 11 and Galatians 6:16). They may, unbeknownst to them, be descended from the tribes of Israel scattered throughout the nations (see Hosea 1, Ezekiel 36, Romans 9, and James 1:1), or they may be Gentiles, or they may be Jews. All must enter through the same Door. All must be branches of the same Tree. There is One Shepherd, one flock, one faith (Jer. 23:3; Eph. 4:5; Jude 3-4).”
Did you get that? :confused: Tandi/Renah is saying that the “Jesus” that most of us have believed in is: “an imposter, a devil in disguise, an idol, a counterfeit, an antichrist.”!!! She is accusing most of us of having RECEIVED “an imposter! (my how "loving" & "non-judgmental") Tandi/Renah is saying that the Lord Jesus Christ” who I received as my Saviour nearly 51 years ago is NOT truly the REAL JESUS! Do you understand WHY I get upset with some of these people? :mad:

Do you remember how "sweeeet" this woman was? and how she upbraided me for being too hard and judgmental? Does the word "hypocrite" come to mind?

Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

This woman is a “false brethren” who slipped in here and has caused confusion and division, and in the end the TRUTH comes out – she has embraced a damnable lie and is now trying to “foist it” on the rest of the brethren on this Forum! {This Forum is like a MAGNET to kooks, crazies, crackpots, and hereticks}
Quote:

The New Covenant is a renewed covenant. The Old Covenant, summarized in Ten Commandments on stone tablets, is now renewed, with these same commandments engraved in our hearts, giving us the inner motivation to obey them. Now we love His commandments. They are no longer grievous burdens. With “Jesus in our heart” we can do what once seemed too difficult (Phil. 4:13; Matt. 19:26). This is why the New Covenant is better than the Old (Hebrews 8:6-10).”
Tandi/Renah actually believes that God has “engraved” in her heart these “same commandments” that He gave to the nation of Israel long ago.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Bill Gothard should be proud! :eek:

Forrest 06-01-2009 12:14 PM

Quote:

George wrote: Please keep in mind this simple Scriptural FACT = an Undeniable Truth

Almost all: False Teaching or Perverted Doctrine or Heresy

Comes from: GOD’S COMMANDMENTS – Given to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}

That have been EXPROPRIATED by - A church
That have been EXPROPRIATED by - A cult
That have been EXPROPRIATED by - An individual

Or from: GOD’S PROMISES – Given to the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}

That have been STOLEN by - A church
That have been STOLEN by -A cult
That have been STOLEN by -An individual

Or from: GOD’S PROPHECIES – Concerning the Jews {Hebrews/Israelites}

That have been APPLIED to - A church
That have been APPLIED to -A cult
That have been APPLIED to -An individual
This is great instruction, brother George.Thank you. And you are right in your last sentence. He would be very pleased! Some material for him to integrate in his spiritual bondage seminars. It would fit nicely. :eek:

Diligent 06-01-2009 12:15 PM

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Galatians 1:6-7 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
I consider this a pretty liberal forum, but someone may not preach "another Jesus" here and be allowed to continue to do so. I will leave this thread open in case anyone else wants to comment on the heresy, but Tandi has been banned.

kevinvw 06-01-2009 12:17 PM

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Jer 31:38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
Jer 31:39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
Jer 31:40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

She forgot the rest of the new covenant. Seems she just broke it seeing as she tried to teach us saying, Know the LORD.

tonybones2112 06-01-2009 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diligent (Post 21331)
2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Galatians 1:6-7 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
I consider this a pretty liberal forum, but someone may not preach "another Jesus" here and be allowed to continue to do so. I will leave this thread open in case anyone else wants to comment on the heresy, but Tandi has been banned.

Brandon, when I became an ultra hyper hyper hyper ultra ultra ultimate hyper hyper absolute hyper hyper hyper dispensational Paulicianite I immediately saw something about the modern day Judaizers, Charasmatic/Pentecostals, and "Covenant" sects: None of them realize that from Genesis 1:1 to Acts 7 the Present Church was not mentioned in Scripture or prophecy. It was a mystery, a secret hid in God from eternity. So they all break the Scriptures and take the promises to Israel.

They don't want the curses and make no commentary on them.

I knew Tandi would step over the line and get booted, I hate to see it, you do, and did, the right thing though. I got booted from a fundamentalist yahoogroup for saying Paul's letters had primacy as doctrine and received his revelations from Christ directly, they said I preached "another Jesus" too. Yeah, Right. Paul got his revelations from Micheal the Archangel and Al Franken too.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Diligent 06-01-2009 06:16 PM

You do not have to be a dispensationalist in the sense that I am in order to be on this forum. But what Tandi did was to accuse us of preaching another Jesus for not being willing to join her in the bondage of the Law. By saying that, she herself set her own "Jesus" as being different that mine.

I can be good friends with Covenanters, and "almost dispensationalists" even when they stretch rather than divide and say things like there is only one Gospel in the Bible (I guess not everyone reads Revelation chapter 14)... but saying I don't know the Lord because I won't pretend to be a Jew is just way past what I will suffer.

chette777 06-01-2009 06:27 PM

some of what Tandi Posted reminded me of this heretic out there at some site called bible truths.com but he is a heretic and a false teacher at best. Some of what she posted seemed like it was pasted directly from some of this mans website posts.

tonybones2112 06-01-2009 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chette777 (Post 21356)
some of what Tandi Posted reminded me of this heretic out there at some site called bible truths.com but he is a heretic and a false teacher at best. Some of what she posted seemed like it was pasted directly from some of this mans website posts.

Could be Chette. I don;t have any comments for this thread, I said what I was led to say to Tandi in other threads. She never read it, she was not grounded, and what was ground was seared conscience. Others with questions on Judaizing and placing people under the Law, maybe someone under a Law system themselves will read what she left and read the Scripture response to her, His words won't return to Him void. She was stubborn and stiffnecked, and prophets of God spoke to her anyway, and as in Ezekiel 2, now she has no excuse.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Luke 06-01-2009 09:01 PM

It is as important to keep the Church and Israel separate, as much as it is to keep the First Adam and the Last Adam separate

tonybones2112 06-01-2009 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke (Post 21378)
It is as important to keep the Church and Israel separate, as much as it is to keep the First Adam and the Last Adam separate

No where in the Bible is there one single prophecy foretelling the church brother. Israel's blessing regards a land grant and habitation and domination, our blessing and inheritance is in heavenly places.

Grace and peace

Tony

Greektim 06-01-2009 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 21381)
No where in the Bible is there one single prophecy foretelling the church brother. Israel's blessing regards a land grant and habitation and domination, our blessing and inheritance is in heavenly places.

Grace and peace

Tony

How about Matt. 16:18 for a Church prophecy?

tonybones2112 06-01-2009 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greektim (Post 21382)
How about Matt. 16:18 for a Church prophecy?

Which church brother?

The first "church" was the nation of Israel, the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob unto which the promises by God were made:

Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The next church is the Messianic/Apostolic church under the 12 Apostles with Peter as the prime apostle to:

Matt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The church no man was told ofis the church you and I are in today. This church has as it's prime apostle Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, the co-equal Body made up for the first time in human history of Gentiles and Jews together equally, which was the Mystery not made known from eternity past until reveal to Paul and through Paul:

Eph. 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you–ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

This is Paul's church, the Body of Christ, and grafted into the Messianic/Apostolic Church under Peter in Acts 15 when Peter, James, and John surrendered the 5 Commissions given to them to Paul's Commission of Acts 9, as related in Galatians 2:

Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The church in the wilderness is the nation of Israel.

The Messianic/Apostolic church is the "kingdom of priests" (Ex. 19)that John the Baptist consecrated Christ as High Priest for(water baptismal washing of Lev. 8) and then He was sanctified by God the Father after this baptism(washing) by the pouring on Christ of the "oil"(the Holy Spirit, which is what the oil typified). After the resurrection Christ gave 5 commissions to the 12 to continue to build this "kingdom of priests" by their preaching of the gospel of the kingdom of Christ as their King and High Priests. This is the church that would have, and will in the future, go through the Tribulation, as Peter in Acts 2 preached Joel 2, the coming Great tribulation, the Wrath To Come. National Israel was set aside at the final rejection of Christ with the murder of Stephen in Acts 7.

Paul is called to preach Christ to Gentiles, kings, and Jews the gospel of the grace of God through Christ's sacrifice apart from the works of the Law. This church is a Body made of Gentiles and Jews now equal as the middle wall of partition, as with the wall separating the Court Of The Gentiles from the rest of the Temple, has been broken down and the two are now One In Christ. Paul's Commission to us is to bear Christ's Name, the Name above every name, to Gentiles, kings, and Jews as ambassadors for Christ and ministers of the reconciliation that God was in Christ, who died for the sins of the world and was buried and resurrected after three days, reconciling the world unto Himself through Christ and Paul's gospel of Grace.

At the "Rapture" this Body will be taken out of the world where the 7000 "who have not bowed the knee to Baal" will form the core of the 144,000 missionaries of Revelation. It is unto these that Hebrews-Revelation is committed to as doctrine for them, as is Genesis-Acts 28, this is the continuation of the Messianic-Apostolic church that will precede the return of Moses and Elijah as prophets and preachers in the Tribulation.

I believe this goes a ways in answering a question you posed to me in the Water Baptism thread about the different churches Tim. Feel free to inquire further.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Greektim 06-02-2009 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 21396)
Which church brother?

The first "church" was the nation of Israel, the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob unto which the promises by God were made:

Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The next church is the Messianic/Apostolic church under the 12 Apostles with Peter as the prime apostle to:

Matt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Ac 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The church no man was told ofis the church you and I are in today. This church has as it's prime apostle Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, the co-equal Body made up for the first time in human history of Gentiles and Jews together equally, which was the Mystery not made known from eternity past until reveal to Paul and through Paul:

Eph. 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you–ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

This is Paul's church, the Body of Christ, and grafted into the Messianic/Apostolic Church under Peter in Acts 15 when Peter, James, and John surrendered the 5 Commissions given to them to Paul's Commission of Acts 9, as related in Galatians 2:

Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The church in the wilderness is the nation of Israel.

The Messianic/Apostolic church is the "kingdom of priests" (Ex. 19)that John the Baptist consecrated Christ as High Priest for(water baptismal washing of Lev. 8) and then He was sanctified by God the Father after this baptism(washing) by the pouring on Christ of the "oil"(the Holy Spirit, which is what the oil typified). After the resurrection Christ gave 5 commissions to the 12 to continue to build this "kingdom of priests" by their preaching of the gospel of the kingdom of Christ as their King and High Priests. This is the church that would have, and will in the future, go through the Tribulation, as Peter in Acts 2 preached Joel 2, the coming Great tribulation, the Wrath To Come. National Israel was set aside at the final rejection of Christ with the murder of Stephen in Acts 7.

Paul is called to preach Christ to Gentiles, kings, and Jews the gospel of the grace of God through Christ's sacrifice apart from the works of the Law. This church is a Body made of Gentiles and Jews now equal as the middle wall of partition, as with the wall separating the Court Of The Gentiles from the rest of the Temple, has been broken down and the two are now One In Christ. Paul's Commission to us is to bear Christ's Name, the Name above every name, to Gentiles, kings, and Jews as ambassadors for Christ and ministers of the reconciliation that God was in Christ, who died for the sins of the world and was buried and resurrected after three days, reconciling the world unto Himself through Christ and Paul's gospel of Grace.

At the "Rapture" this Body will be taken out of the world where the 7000 "who have not bowed the knee to Baal" will form the core of the 144,000 missionaries of Revelation. It is unto these that Hebrews-Revelation is committed to as doctrine for them, as is Genesis-Acts 28, this is the continuation of the Messianic-Apostolic church that will precede the return of Moses and Elijah as prophets and preachers in the Tribulation.

I believe this goes a ways in answering a question you posed to me in the Water Baptism thread about the different churches Tim. Feel free to inquire further.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Ok...let me back up...and don't forget I am a Dispensationalist (normative/classical/traditional; I call myself a strict/refined Dispensationalist b/c of my views of the Kingdom of God, the New Covenant, & Spirit indwelling which are a bit different than the Ryrie, Walvoord, Pentecost Dispensationalism. But that is for another time...):

You see 2 churches, or possibly 3 (OT Israe? & a Messianic Petrine or are they the same???). No doubt the KJV speaks of a "church" in the OT from Acts 7. I only see 1 Church beginning at Pentecost. I see an ekklesia (congregation or assembly) in Acts 7 just as you see ekklesia (assembly) in Acts 19. But...potato potahtoe...

My first question is, would you say that the Church (Pauline in your case) is a mystery (mystery being that which was not revealed in the past, etc...)? If yes, could you provide the Scripture that directly says the church is a mystery? If not, well then you get the idea...

Last thing, Jesus uses a future tense in Matt. 16:18 "I will build My Church." Does that not affect the way you interpret it? Are we not part of Jesus' Church? How can you tell which ekklesia He is referring to?

I know I was accused of asking to many questions, but I hope that doesn't bother you Tony. I want to get a feel for things before I go right off and stick my foot in my mouth. I have big feet so that would not be a good thing.

tonybones2112 06-02-2009 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greektim (Post 21401)
Ok...let me back up...and don't forget I am a Dispensationalist (normative/classical/traditional; I call myself a strict/refined Dispensationalist b/c of my views of the Kingdom of God, the New Covenant, & Spirit indwelling which are a bit different than the Ryrie, Walvoord, Pentecost Dispensationalism. But that is for another time...):

You see 2 churches, or possibly 3 (OT Israe? & a Messianic Petrine or are they the same???). No doubt the KJV speaks of a "church" in the OT from Acts 7. I only see 1 Church beginning at Pentecost. I see an ekklesia (congregation or assembly) in Acts 7 just as you see ekklesia (assembly) in Acts 19. But...potato potahtoe...

My first question is, would you say that the Church (Pauline in your case) is a mystery (mystery being that which was not revealed in the past, etc...)? If yes, could you provide the Scripture that directly says the church is a mystery? If not, well then you get the idea...

Last thing, Jesus uses a future tense in Matt. 16:18 "I will build My Church." Does that not affect the way you interpret it? Are we not part of Jesus' Church? How can you tell which ekklesia He is referring to?

I know I was accused of asking to many questions, but I hope that doesn't bother you Tony. I want to get a feel for things before I go right off and stick my foot in my mouth. I have big feet so that would not be a good thing.

You don't ask too many questions, as far as I am concerned Tim. I enjoy talking with you, so no problem. I don't see any guile in you, you have differing opinions maybe with many on this forum, I'm sure you and I differ. No problem. See brother, I was once an Inquisitioner. I expected every Christian to have the belief I did because I thought my way was encoded in all Christian's DNA. It was when I became involved in the street ministry I relearned an old lesson: I was once Church Of Christ, as hell-damning a heresy as any cult you want to name. My lesson was, don't beat the Pentecostal for being Pentecostal, I was wrong once too. I'm not saying you are wrong on anything, I'm saying I am personally a little more long-suffering than I once was and can can see another's perspective. Sometimes we can't when the heresy is blatant, as with Tandi, and sometimes you just get people with an Inquisitioner's attitude, as with this Oneway person. Also, I owe you a response on the discussion in another thread on the NKJV. I throw things into bold type, italics, and underline for emphasis and that makes me appear cut, dried, and pedantic. It's hard to convey emotions through computer text. Lastly, the last ten years have been to me like Job's Time on the ground. I could have packed and left my mother to fend for herself, I chose to care for her, at the end she and I both lost everything we owned. That time of financial exile is coming to an end and I have a "tour" planned to meet friends I have met on the 'net, I'll be over your way and we'll meet face to face someday soon.

Brother, the Scripture you ask for regarding this church today being unprophesied and a "mystery" was quoted in my message: Ephesians 3. If you notice from his writings, Paul leaves no mystery undefined. He says, okay folks, here is a mystery, and then he says what it is.

The church in the wilderness, the first ecclesia mentioned by Stephen, is the nation of Israel. this nation apostatized as the OT shows, and it was prophesied that God would have to call a New Israel from the Old. It was stated the Levites, along with the other people of the nation, also went into idolatry with them. This is why the Levitical washing was called a baptism(washing) of "repentance". The priesthood needed cleansing just as much as the rest of the nation. To those who responded to John the Baptist and to those who refused, John stated, I come baptizing with water and all his listeners knew just what he meant: Exodus 29, 40, Lev 8 washings as consecration. He stated then to the belivers, He who comes after me will baptize you in the Holy Ghost,(the sanctification of the "oil") and with fire(those who rejected the gospel of the kingdom of heaven, thrown into hell).

I agree with you on Matt. 16: Christ prophesied the Messianic church, it was fulfilled in Acts 2, and in Acts 2:47 the Scriptures state God added to the "church" as many as accepted the message and obeyed the ordinance of Levitical washing and then they received the sanctification of the gift of the Holy Ghost. You have a term you call "progressive dispensationalism", I am teaching here progressive revelation. Paul gives the number of believers in this Messianic church in 1 Cor. 15 as being over 511 on the day of Pentecost, this church eventually grew and was numbered at the time of the surrender of the 5 "great commissions" given to the 12 by the risen Christ to Paul and Barnabas at being 7000. I believe this because I believe the Scriptures are precise down to the last atom.

1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

The Messianic church in Paul's time was the "little flock", the "remnant". When national Israel fell(Rom. 11) Paul was called and was given the revelation that the third church that you and I are in came to be by Israel's fall rather than exaltation. At no time in history were Jews and Gentiles together in one Body. Until Paul receives the revelation from Christ. Paul says we are "graffed" into something. National Israel that fell?

No, we are grafted into the Messianic church to maintain the One-Body relationship to Christ. The church you and I are in was grafted into this Believing Remnant of Peter, James, and John at Acts 15, as Paul describes, the very instant we are grafted is when they gave Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship.

The question you may have at this time is why then did not the Messianic church then follow Paul?

Ro 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man‘s foundation:

Ac 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

I "rightly divide Paul": Pre-Acts 15, But Now, today, and his work laying the foundation, with the 12, for the Tribulation church, which is nothing more than the Messianic church. The program was interrupted by the mystery Body of Eph. 3, we are a parenthetical addition not mentioned in any prophecy.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in [U]all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.[/U]

Peter did not say he didn't understand Paul's letters or commission otherwise he would not have given him the right hand of fellowship: He said there were things the unlearned and unstable would wrest, as the Church Of Christ, the Catholics, and other do.

3 in particular I can name for you wrest Paul to put us back under the Law: Tandi, Herbert Armstrong's followers, and Ellen White of the SDAs.

Larkin and Scofield divided the word into 7 dispensations: Paul divides it into 3 in Eph. 2:

Time Past- Genesis-Acts 28: The fathers, nation of Israel, Messiah and Messianic Church(water baptism and the signs of the apostles cease at Acts 28. Bullinger taught the Biody began at Acts 28, the sign gifts ran out at Acts 28).
But Now- The mystery Body of Jew and Gentiles. For simplicity's sake I call this administration(dispensation) ACTS CHAPTER 29 that you and I are in. Romans-Philemon.
Ages To Come- Hebrews-Revelation. The Messianic-Apostolic-Tribulation church. The time covered is Tribulation, Millennium, Eternity.

To understand Pauline Dispensationalism you need to know the difference between:

Law and Grace
Peter and Paul
Israel(the Bride) and the Church of today under Paul(the Body of The Groom)
Kings and Priests
Moses and Jesus Christ

All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, not all that doctrine is applicable to you and me. Paul's Scriptures can be and are rightly divided into:

Doctrine- Romans
Reproof- I & II Corinthians
Correction- Galatians-Colossians
Instruction In Righteousness- I Thess.-Philemon

Tim, if you can digest all this, this above is why I do not practice or teach OT ordinances given to national Israel and the Messianic/Apostolic Israel of:

Water baptism
Tongues, signs, wonders, healings, resurrections of the dead
Tithing
The Lord's Supper

I do not practice the 5 commissions given to the 12, but the one commission given to Paul: I am an ambassador for Christ and minister of the reconciliation. My gospel is salvation by grace through faith apart from the works of the Law in Christ crucified for the sins of the whole world. Any other gospel preached than this one is accursed along with the people preaching it.

Tim, this is what I have taught in the forum, I taught it to Tandi, I have given parts of it in other threads. I'm not "pushing" anything as brother George mentioned in the water baptism thread, I am merely being consistent, do not change, and have not nor ever will deviate from it. I am not double minded as many cultists are, I do not change my position to suit whoever I am speaking to at the moment. I have never quoted Stam, Bullinger, Darby, Baker, or any of the Plymouth Brethren but given my position from the Scriptures. This is why Pauline Grace Dispensationalists are called heretics, false teachers, "Bullingerites" and divisive church splitters. It's my position in the water baptism thread and I'm still waiting for someone to refute it. If churches won;t allow me fellowship with them, if it gets me thrown out of internet forums as it has several, then just take God's free Grace off the shelf, I preach it to Jews and Gentiles by myself.

Not by guile, stealth, deception,
Nor by anything seen or felt
Just give me God's free Grace
And nothing else

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Greektim 06-02-2009 09:35 PM

Just to clarify, Tony, I only see Eph. 3 teaching that particular revelation of Jew & Gent into one body being the mystery but not the Church specifically. Even in your post #16, you emphasized in bold underlined "revelation" in vs. 3 & "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men...now revealed" in vs. 5 making the correct connection. So technically, the Eph. 3 does not say that the Church is a mystery.

Your thoughts?

tonybones2112 06-02-2009 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greektim (Post 21448)
Just to clarify, Tony, I only see Eph. 3 teaching that particular revelation of Jew & Gent into one body being the mystery but not the Church specifically. Even in your post #16, you emphasized in bold underlined "revelation" in vs. 3 & "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men...now revealed" in vs. 5 making the correct connection. So technically, the Eph. 3 does not say that the Church is a mystery.

Your thoughts?

Eph. 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Tim, forgive me for saying this, but I think you are hung up on prefabbed, preconceived scholastic theological "systems". The answer to your, to me, incorrect assumption here can be found by reading Eph. 3, backing up two chapters, reading, then going forward 3 chapters, and letting the Scriptures interpret themselves rather than interpreting them through a prefabbed theological "system". Correct me if I am wrong, I think you want to force the present church, the present Body, back into Acts 2 under Peter. That church no longer exists and will not exist until such a time as the departure of this Church out of the world takes place.

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Ro 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Ro 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be [B]graffed into their own olive tree?/B]

Just as the three Biblical dispensations are found in Eph. 2, all three churches I demonstrated to you is found in these passages in Romans 11:

The Olive Tree- The Messianic/Apostolic church of Peter, James, and John, Believing Israel, you prophesied church of Matt. 16.

The Wild Branches- The mystery Body of Eph. 3. made up of Jews and Gentiles, equal. Nowhere in the OT was it ever said, spoken, prophesied, that Gentiles would ever be equal to Israel.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Gen. 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

In the OT no Gentile could be exalted without the exaltation of Israel. "But now":

Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

It is nowhere revealed in the OT that the Gentiles would receive salvation APART from Israel and her rise, but now, through Israel's fall we are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Don;t read your theology brother, read Eph. 2.

The Natural Branches- National Israel that was broken off for unbelief but will be grafted in again in the Tribulation when they again believe to form the basis for the Millenial Kingdom under Christ.

I don't know what "progressive dispensationalism" is. I mean, I know 20 people who claim to be P/Ds, and have 20 different definitions of what it is.
Paul's revelation of the three dispensations was not "prograssive", it was hid in God before Genesis 1:1 until revealed to Paul. Brother Tim, if you're going to understand what I am saying then you are going to have chuck "progressive" dispensationalism and understand progressive revelation.
Peter, James, and John had no idea of Paul's message in Eph. 2 and 3. Thus:

Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The Olive Tree was the Messianic church prophesied in Matt.16 and fulfilled in Acts 2, Believing Israel. The Natural Branches, national Israel, were broken off in Acts 7 with the murder of Stephen. The Wild Branches were called by Paul, the Jewish-Gentile Body, and grafted into the Olive Tree in Acts 15, as recounted in Gal. 2.

Your turn...

Grace and peace

Tony

Greektim 06-03-2009 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 21456)
Eph. 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Tim, forgive me for saying this, but I think you are hung up on prefabbed, preconceived scholastic theological "systems". The answer to your, to me, incorrect assumption here can be found by reading Eph. 3, backing up two chapters, reading, then going forward 3 chapters, and letting the Scriptures interpret themselves rather than interpreting them through a prefabbed theological "system". Correct me if I am wrong, I think you want to force the present church, the present Body, back into Acts 2 under Peter. That church no longer exists and will not exist until such a time as the departure of this Church out of the world takes place.

Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Ro 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Ro 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Ro 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be [B]graffed into their own olive tree?/B]

Just as the three Biblical dispensations are found in Eph. 2, all three churches I demonstrated to you is found in these passages in Romans 11:

The Olive Tree- The Messianic/Apostolic church of Peter, James, and John, Believing Israel, you prophesied church of Matt. 16.

The Wild Branches- The mystery Body of Eph. 3. made up of Jews and Gentiles, equal. Nowhere in the OT was it ever said, spoken, prophesied, that Gentiles would ever be equal to Israel.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Gen. 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

In the OT no Gentile could be exalted without the exaltation of Israel. "But now":

Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

It is nowhere revealed in the OT that the Gentiles would receive salvation APART from Israel and her rise, but now, through Israel's fall we are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Don;t read your theology brother, read Eph. 2.

The Natural Branches- National Israel that was broken off for unbelief but will be grafted in again in the Tribulation when they again believe to form the basis for the Millenial Kingdom under Christ.

I don't know what "progressive dispensationalism" is. I mean, I know 20 people who claim to be P/Ds, and have 20 different definitions of what it is.
Paul's revelation of the three dispensations was not "prograssive", it was hid in God before Genesis 1:1 until revealed to Paul. Brother Tim, if you're going to understand what I am saying then you are going to have chuck "progressive" dispensationalism and understand progressive revelation.
Peter, James, and John had no idea of Paul's message in Eph. 2 and 3. Thus:

Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

The Olive Tree was the Messianic church prophesied in Matt.16 and fulfilled in Acts 2, Believing Israel. The Natural Branches, national Israel, were broken off in Acts 7 with the murder of Stephen. The Wild Branches were called by Paul, the Jewish-Gentile Body, and grafted into the Olive Tree in Acts 15, as recounted in Gal. 2.

Your turn...

Grace and peace

Tony

I am trying to stay with the concept that the Church is a mystery. My last post did not have anything to do with a prefabbed theological construct. But I'll admit I do that. But you would be foolish to say that you don't. For me, I let the Scriptures speak for themselves and interpret them as an observer. Also, my Bibliology versus your Bibliology will play a part in this. I don't see a "church" in the OT or in the Trib. I see the Church as a distinct paranthesis starting at Acts 2 & ending at the Rapture. Acts uses ekklesia multiple ways (see, different views on the Bible).

Anyhow, I'll readily admit that Ephesians teaches things about the Church. Goodness, that is an understatement. But I would ask for one passage that states the Church is a mystery. It seems you are turning what might be implied (the Church is a mystery) back onto the text (i.e. a prefabbed construct system).

Greektim 06-04-2009 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greektim (Post 21467)
I am trying to stay with the concept that the Church is a mystery. My last post did not have anything to do with a prefabbed theological construct. But I'll admit I do that. But you would be foolish to say that you don't. For me, I let the Scriptures speak for themselves and interpret them as an observer. Also, my Bibliology versus your Bibliology will play a part in this. I don't see a "church" in the OT or in the Trib. I see the Church as a distinct paranthesis starting at Acts 2 & ending at the Rapture. Acts uses ekklesia multiple ways (see, different views on the Bible).

Anyhow, I'll readily admit that Ephesians teaches things about the Church. Goodness, that is an understatement. But I would ask for one passage that states the Church is a mystery. It seems you are turning what might be implied (the Church is a mystery) back onto the text (i.e. a prefabbed construct system).

Ah-hem...

;)

tonybones2112 06-04-2009 11:08 PM

The Church In The Wilderness
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greektim (Post 21638)
Ah-hem...

;)

Tim, there are few things in the world I love more than standing, you have to stand since they are so petrified their legs won't bend, but stand and discuss with a petrified, stone-hard Calvinist the doctrines of preterism, pedobaptism, sublapsariansism, supralapsarianism, infralapsarianism. the errors of Sabellianism with a Jesus Only/Oneness Pentecostal or Arianism with a JW. Okay, I know all the big words and am fully equipped, as Paul said, to be all things to all men. Yeah, sometimes I forget the difference between Eusebius and Origen, I have Adult ADD and see reality through 20 TV screens, rather than the one normal humans see it through.

Your system of theology is different from mine, yours was taught to you by someone who was taught by someone who was taught by someone who was taught that the pattern for the present say church is founded in Acts 2 with water baptism, tithing, the Lord's Supper, confession of sin(s) to God and the commission of Matt. 28. What they didn't teach you was that we are merely grafted into this Second Church in the Scriptures to maintain unity of the Body, and that for Acts 2 to be the pattern for present church practice you must:

1. Manifest the signs of Mark 16.
2. Have all material things in common.
3. Be living in the fearful expectation of the Tribulation of Joel 2 that Peter preached in Acts 2.

"Progression dispensationalism"?

No, progressive revelation. The first person I ever heard use this term was Dr. Peter Ruckman and he uses the term and the concept to great effect until it crosses denominational doctrine and he abandons it. As boith brother George and i have demonstrated in dispensational understanding is you have to go back to the time period and consider what Peter knew at the time he preached, consider his compirmising the Messianic church message with those who still kept the Law, and then his getting straightened out by Paul and Barnabas at the council at Jerusalem in Acts 15 as recounted in Gal.2 and his subsequent understanding of the difference in his message and Paul's on Law vs Grace.

You and I, apart from most in the forum, can "go to the Greek" and "go to the Hebrew" and not offend each other, most forum members are sensitive because many use the practice to impeach the authority of the definition of the English with referneces to either language. I use it to clarify. Let's look in Acts 6 and 7:

Acts 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

ACts 7:1 Then said the high priest, Are these things so?
2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

Luke records Stephen's speech in Greek, but did Stephen speak in Hebrew or Greek?

Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Luke records this as the "eccelsia", if Stephen had spoken in Hebrew the word would have been "yaqqaha", gathering, assembly:

Gen. 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father’s children shall bow down before thee.
9 Judah is a lion’s whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass’s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

In Genesis 49 Jacob speaks of "the last days"(Gen. 49:1) of this "church", "gathering", "ecclesia" "yaqqaha". In Acts 7, Stephen speaks of it as being at Sinai as God is giving Moses the Law. In this passage Paul calls the Third Church in Scripture, the Body of Christ at the time of the Rapture, "episunagoge", gathered together in once place:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Without regard to Larkin, Scofield, Ruckman, Jamiesson-Fausset-Brown, AT Robertson, Darby, Baker, Stam, or any other commentator, I consult the method of Isaiah 28:9-13 and Hosea 12:10 and find not 7 churches, not 1 church, not 12 churches, but 3 in Scripture:

1. The church in the wilderness: national Israel
2. The Messianic/Apostolic church: Believing Israel, the Kingdom Of Priests, that was rooted in John the Baptist, Christ's earthly ministry, the church that was born on the day of Pentecost and would have and will go through the Tribulation. In Revelation 1:6 they are the "priests" that will serve the earthly kingdom promised to Abraham and his descendants, we are the "kings" who will reign in heavenly places.
3. The Body of Christ that was not prophesied and hid in God, Jews and Gentiles in one body co-equal, a concept impossible to understand by OT Jewish standards, which is why, with it's secret status of being revealed to no man until Paul, it is called a "mystery". Read Eph. 3. Read the OT with regard to the extreme separatist standards of Israel, in their fleshly, spiritual, and racial bigotry towards any nation outside their own.

Tim, my "system" is founded and based on comparing Scripture with Scripture and like the Scriptures, it is not hard to understand, it's hard to believe.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Greektim 06-05-2009 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonybones2112 (Post 21650)
Tim, there are few things in the world I love more than standing, you have to stand since they are so petrified their legs won't bend, but stand and discuss with a petrified, stone-hard Calvinist the doctrines of preterism, pedobaptism, sublapsariansism, supralapsarianism, infralapsarianism. the errors of Sabellianism with a Jesus Only/Oneness Pentecostal or Arianism with a JW. Okay, I know all the big words and am fully equipped, as Paul said, to be all things to all men. Yeah, sometimes I forget the difference between Eusebius and Origen, I have Adult ADD and see reality through 20 TV screens, rather than the one normal humans see it through.

Your system of theology is different from mine, yours was taught to you by someone who was taught by someone who was taught by someone who was taught that the pattern for the present say church is founded in Acts 2 with water baptism, tithing, the Lord's Supper, confession of sin(s) to God and the commission of Matt. 28. What they didn't teach you was that we are merely grafted into this Second Church in the Scriptures to maintain unity of the Body, and that for Acts 2 to be the pattern for present church practice you must:

1. Manifest the signs of Mark 16.
2. Have all material things in common.
3. Be living in the fearful expectation of the Tribulation of Joel 2 that Peter preached in Acts 2.

"Progression dispensationalism"?

No, progressive revelation. The first person I ever heard use this term was Dr. Peter Ruckman and he uses the term and the concept to great effect until it crosses denominational doctrine and he abandons it. As boith brother George and i have demonstrated in dispensational understanding is you have to go back to the time period and consider what Peter knew at the time he preached, consider his compirmising the Messianic church message with those who still kept the Law, and then his getting straightened out by Paul and Barnabas at the council at Jerusalem in Acts 15 as recounted in Gal.2 and his subsequent understanding of the difference in his message and Paul's on Law vs Grace.

You and I, apart from most in the forum, can "go to the Greek" and "go to the Hebrew" and not offend each other, most forum members are sensitive because many use the practice to impeach the authority of the definition of the English with referneces to either language. I use it to clarify. Let's look in Acts 6 and 7:

Acts 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

ACts 7:1 Then said the high priest, Are these things so?
2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

Luke records Stephen's speech in Greek, but did Stephen speak in Hebrew or Greek?

Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Luke records this as the "eccelsia", if Stephen had spoken in Hebrew the word would have been "yaqqaha", gathering, assembly:

Gen. 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father’s children shall bow down before thee.
9 Judah is a lion’s whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass’s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

In Genesis 49 Jacob speaks of "the last days"(Gen. 49:1) of this "church", "gathering", "ecclesia" "yaqqaha". In Acts 7, Stephen speaks of it as being at Sinai as God is giving Moses the Law. In this passage Paul calls the Third Church in Scripture, the Body of Christ at the time of the Rapture, "episunagoge", gathered together in once place:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Without regard to Larkin, Scofield, Ruckman, Jamiesson-Fausset-Brown, AT Robertson, Darby, Baker, Stam, or any other commentator, I consult the method of Isaiah 28:9-13 and Hosea 12:10 and find not 7 churches, not 1 church, not 12 churches, but 3 in Scripture:

1. The church in the wilderness: national Israel
2. The Messianic/Apostolic church: Believing Israel, the Kingdom Of Priests, that was rooted in John the Baptist, Christ's earthly ministry, the church that was born on the day of Pentecost and would have and will go through the Tribulation. In Revelation 1:6 they are the "priests" that will serve the earthly kingdom promised to Abraham and his descendants, we are the "kings" who will reign in heavenly places.
3. The Body of Christ that was not prophesied and hid in God, Jews and Gentiles in one body co-equal, a concept impossible to understand by OT Jewish standards, which is why, with it's secret status of being revealed to no man until Paul, it is called a "mystery". Read Eph. 3. Read the OT with regard to the extreme separatist standards of Israel, in their fleshly, spiritual, and racial bigotry towards any nation outside their own.

Tim, my "system" is founded and based on comparing Scripture with Scripture and like the Scriptures, it is not hard to understand, it's hard to believe.

Grace and peace brother

Tony

Honestly, I was taught to be a classical Dispo, but it wasn't til I did the study myself that I owned it. So I like to think that it was through my own research that I came to my views.

I am not sure where all that is coming from in the last post. I am trying to stay focused on one topic - the Church as a mystery. You keep going very broad. We can discuss the other things later, but I just want you to delve into this issue a bit first.

Come back to Eph. 3. In fact, the entire book of Eph. Nowhere is the Church said to be a mystery. In fact, what we see is that the Church contains mystery elements - i.e. Jew/Gent in one body & the Church's relationship w/ Jesus as the espoused Bride (chpt 5). Not one passage specifically gives a "but now" to the Church specifically. The statements made are to various aspects of the Church. Now if you want to infer that the 4 main mystery aspects of the Church make the Church a mystyery, then ok. But just know that your terminology should reflect that.

Here is a short article I wrote on this issue: http://debatingtheologicalissues.blo...of-church.html


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