Salvation: Can you lose it?
 

Brother Smith,
We will pray that the work on the Bible will progress unhindered. I guess the MV followers will now start throwing rocks at CKJBO's. :)

On your site it says, "in the regenerating waters of baptism". Could you elaborate?

English is a common second language in Taiwan.

regenerating waters of baptism / born again

English is a 3rd language in Taiwan. In the North, Mandarin is 1st and Taiwanese is 2nd. In the South, Taiwanese is 1st and Mandarin is 2nd.
In some cases English is a 4th language as Haka is the 3rd.
We also teach English here at the mission using the King James as our text book.

Is the 1880/1885 A.D. Chinese King James a modern book?
regenerating waters of baptism....born again

"in the regenerating waters of baptism".
 

Ok, I think I've figured out how to reply correctly now..

I can see how "in the regenerating waters of baptism" can lead to confusion and removed it from our web page.

Every Christian begins his Church membership by being solemnly baptized with water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Baptism, also, is a sign of regeneration or new birth. As St. Paul says, “As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Gal. iii. 27.)

Regeneration, it is that complete change of heart and character which the Holy Spirit works in a person when he/she becomes a real Christian. We call it “a death unto sin, and a new birth unto righteousness.” It is the same thing as being “born again,” or “born of God,” or “born of the Spirit.” “Except a man be born again” means “except a man be regenerate.” “If any man be in Christ, he isa new creature;” that is, he is “born again, or regenerate.” (John iii. 3; 2 Cor. v. 17.)

Thank you, Brother, for your clear response. Here we have a false cult known as the "Church of Christ" that teaches that a person must be baptized in order to be saved. It is called "baptismal regeneration". The wording on your site made it appear that this was what you believed as well. Thank you for changing that and explaining your doctrine.

May God bless you and your work,

Bro. Smith,

Thank God my friend! I was also thinking it was like the Church of Christ meaning. No water, no salvation.

Thank you so much for telling us what you mean. I'll be sure to pray for you and your work brother.


Atlas

May God bless your efforts to keep the truth.

"Regeneration, it is that complete change of heart and character which the Holy Spirit works in a person when he/she becomes a real Christian. We call it “a death unto sin, and a new birth unto righteousness.” It is the same thing as being “born again,” or “born of God,” or “born of the Spirit.” “Except a man be born again” means “except a man be regenerate.” “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature;” that is, he is “born again, or regenerate.” (John iii. 3; 2 Cor. v. 17.)"

A comment on your above statement and I do not mean to offend you in any way brother, but I would like to demonstrate to you the Biblical State of a New Testament saint:

THE BIBLICAL NEW TESTAMENT SAINT

(An overview of the Biblical state of the New Testament Saint)

#1 N. T. SAINT’S SOUL [Saved – Eternally Secure]

Priceless – Eternal [The most valuable substance that he possesses]

The New Testament Saint’s Soul is hindered by Sin and Man’s Sinful Nature.

The New Testament Saint’s Soul’s Destination = Heaven.

The New Testament Saint - Imperfect Communion and Fellowship with God.

#2 N. T. SAINT’S BODY - FLESH [Under Condemnation]

The New Testament Saint’s Body (Flesh) is hindered by Sin and Man’s Sinful Nature.

The New Testament Saint has a Hope of possibly not Dying.

The New Testament Saint that Dies has the Promise of a bodily Resurrection.

The New Testament Saint that Dies has the Promise of a New Body (like Christ’s) in the future.

#3 N. T. SAINT’S SPIRIT [Regenerated - Quickened]

The New Testament Saint’s spirit has been regenerated and cannot be separated from God. *

The New Testament Saint’s spirit is hindered by Sin and Man’s Sinful Nature.

The New Testament Saint’s spirit is aided by the Holy Spirit in understanding Spiritual Truth.

The Holy Spirit of God Dwells within The New Testament Saint and Promises Never to Leave.

#4 N. T. SAINT’S CONSCIENCE [Weak and Often Ineffective]

The New Testament Saint’s Conscience is hindered by Sin and Man’s Sinful Nature.

God’s word and the indwelling Holy Spirit can influence the New Testament Saint’s Conscience.

#5 N. T. SAINT’S MIND [Corruptible – Although we have Christ’s Mind]

The New Testament Saint’s Mind has been changed (altered). **

The New Testament Saint’s Mind is hindered by Sin and Man’s Sinful Nature.

The New Testament Saint has the Mind of Christ which can influence us to live righteously.

God’s word and the indwelling Holy Spirit can influence the New Testament Saint’s Mind.

#6 N. T. SAINT’S HEART [Wicked, Evil & Deceitful – Capable of Perfection]

The New Testament Saint’s Heart is unchanged. ***

The New Testament Saint’s Heart is hindered by Sin and Man’s Sinful Nature.

God’s word and the indwelling Holy Spirit can influence the New Testament Saint’s Heart.

The New Testament Saint has the Promise of a New Heart in the future.


* The New Testament Saint’s spirit has been changed (altered), but is not yet fully perfected – Holy (Sinless).

** The New Testament Saint’s mind has been changed (altered). In addition to our own mind we now have the “Mind of Christ” (1Corinthians 2:16). However we have to “let” His Mind be in us (Philippians 2:5) and we have to “arm” ourselves with His Mind (1 Peter 4:1) in order to have His Mind become effective in our lives.

*** The New Testament Saint’s heart has not been changed. We do not have a New Heart YET.

PLEASE NOTE: Why do we Christians have such great difficulty living for the Lord? It's because we still live in this carnal flesh (body); we still have a weak conscience; we still have a mind that is subject to corruption; and our heart is still wicked, evil, and deceitful! Thank God He has saved our soul and regenerated our spirit! Now we know WHY Christians can commit heinous sins and iniquity.

The following are the Biblical Definitions for the words heart, mind, and conscience (our FACULTIES) and soul & spirit (our SUBSTANCE - I omitted our body since we should be real familiar with it :rolleyes:) PLEASE NOTE: I did not obtain these definitions from Webster's Dictionary or Strong's Concordance or any book, article, etc. written by another man. When it comes to spiritual matters Webster & Strong are very little help, since only God can give us the discernment, understanding, and wisdom to understand His words. These definitions are the result of searching the Scriptures for over a year in pursuit of a study that I have done on the Biblical heart of man:

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE HEART {Our Motivator}

The heart is that faculty within a man or woman which is the center or seat of our 1 thoughts, 2 meditations, 3 considerations, 4 perceptions, 5 concepts, 6 reasoning, 7 understanding, 8 beliefs, 9 imaginations, 10 fears, 11 doubts, 12 counsels, 13 intents, 14 desires (affections - emotions), and 15 pride. The heart is where the 16 will resides and operates.

(1. Job 17:11; 2. Psalms 19:14; 3. Deuteronomy 8:5; 4. Deuteronomy 29:4; 5. Acts 5:4; 6. Mark 2:8; 7. Proverbs 8:5; 8. Romans 10:9-10; 9. Genesis 6:5; 10. Isaiah 35:4, Luke 21:26; 11. Mark 11:23; 12. Jeremiah 7:24; 13. Hebrews 4:12; 14. Psalms 37:4, Colossians 3:2; 15. 2 Chronicles 32:26; 16. Psalms 101:2, Psalms 119:69, Psalms 119:145, Isaiah 32:6, 1 Corinthians 7:37, Ephesians 6:6.)

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE MIND {Our Facilitator}

According to the Scriptures the mind is that faculty within a man or woman wherein resides our intellect or intelligence. In the Bible the mind is separate and distinct from the heart in purpose, though similar in function and operation.

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE CONSCIENCE {Our Regulator}

According to the Scriptures the conscience is that faculty within a man or woman wherein resides the awareness of right and wrong (good and evil), and which influences the heart and mind as to the lawfulness or unlawfulness of our own affections & actions. According to the Scriptures the human heart and conscience are separate and distinct from each other in purpose and in operation.

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE SPIRIT {Our Life}

According to the Scriptures the spirit (pertaining only to mankind) is that substance [which is given by God] within a man or woman wherein our very life resides i.e. the spirit is life itself. In the Bible the spirit is separate and distinct from the heart and the soul in purpose, though it may have some similar characteristics.

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE SOUL {Our Essence}

According to the Scriptures the soul is that substance within a man or a woman, which is created at the moment of birth, (when the body receives the spirit) and which is the very essence of their being. The soul within a man or woman is that substance that distinguishes mankind from all of the other living creatures in God’s creation. The soul is that substance which separates an individual from every other individual and makes them unique.

I hope this may be of some help to you. I am sorry for the long post, but this matter is of utmost importance for us to know and understand and is very helpful in being able to live an overcoming life. (It took me nearly 50 years to learn this, so maybe someone else can benefit from it sooner than me.)

I don't have space here to expound on this subject, however I have posted my "original" study on my web site: "thywordistruthkjv.com". However, since I am not inspired (and neither are my writings), I have since "revised" my study (3rd. "Major Revision") ;) and have not converted it to HTML to post on my site yet.

Are you saying that baptism by immersion is not necessary to be saved?

In a word, ABSOLUTELY!!!

TLDurst,

You do not need to be baptized to be saved.


Atlas

I'm reading Gipp's theological study of the book of Acts. Throughout the book of Acts baptism by immersion is used by the Apostles when bringing people to Jesus Christ and salvation. What am I missing? What does the Bible say is necessary for one to be saved?

TLDurst,

Are you saved?

If you are not saved, let me know I'll call you on the phone if I need to. I'll teach you how to be saved. If you want to talk with me PM me on here and I'll give you my phone number. We will talk on the phone and I can tell you in 2 minutes how to get saved. If you are not saved I want to talk with you.

You need to go read Romans that is what teaches you how to get saved. Acts is not a good book to build and church doctrine on at all. You need to be baptized, but not for salvation. You do that after you are saved.





Atlas

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10

I've always known and believed that Jesus died on the cross for my sins but I've never separated baptism from being saved. I was raised in a Pentecostal church . I don't recall ever being taught that one could be saved without being baptized. If one believes in Jesus Christ and accepts him as his Lord and Saviour but is never baptized where will he spend eternity?

Heaven.
Baptism is not part of a man being justified, it is an act of obedience to Christ, symbolizing that the old, sinful self is gone, revealing a new creature in Christ .

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17

TLDurst,

The same place the thief on the cross went, he was never baptized.

Well have you even been saved?

I also believe George Washington was the General in the War of Independence. That however will not save you. Have you accepted Christ as your Lord and saviour?

It is more than just believing a fact in history. Fact: Jesus died on the cross and a new religion was started because of it. Many people believe that Jesus died, but they have not ask Jesus to save them from their sin and accepted his death for them. he died to take your place. he never sinned, therefore he died for us. Only his death and blood can and will pay your sin debt. Your debt must be paid. Either you will pay it buy going to hell or you accept his payment for your sin. salvation is about paying a debt that must be paid. It is about far more than a head knowledge that Jesus died on the cross. I believed that before I was ever saved.

You need to think about a time in your life when you called on Jesus, repented of your sin and ask him to save you. If you can not find this in your life you are not saved.

Also do not forget.

When you get saved there will be a change, there always is. Paul in the Bible he changed, as did peter and every other person that ever got saved in the Bible. Salvation always brings forth a change in any man or woman.

My guess is that if you do not know how to get saved, more than likely you have never been saved. Go back in your mind a think this over. I have no idea who is or who is not saved.


Atlas

opps I made 2 post

If anyone adds ANYTHING to what Jesus has done and believes it is necessary for salvation, they are not saved. It is Jesus and His finished work of redemption alone. Baptism is the first step of obedience for the new believer. Check out Acts 8:37 - the Ethiopian Eunuch got baptized because he already believed in Jesus Christ with all his heart. Romans 6 teaches that baptism is a picture of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection - it is a public statement of your faith in Him and an indentification with what He has done to save you. It adds nothing to salvation. Your place in eternity is determined by what you do with Jesus, not whether you have Jesus + something else. Also, the Bible clearly teaches we are not saved by any works (works of the law, works of righteousness - but solely by God's grace received through our faith in Jesus's finished work on the cross - and this verse shows that baptism is a work of righteousness:

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Titus 3:4-7 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 4:3-6 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Trace out the word "righteousness" in the NT and see how it is obtained: through faith, not works. Isaiah 64:6 shows that man's righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight - could never earn or merit salvation - therefore it must only be through God's righteousness credited to our account. See Jeremiah 23:6.

Jerry,





Amen.

TLDurst,

I am going to give you some Bible and break this down for you.

Eph. 2: 8 -10

This is one of the best places you can study in the Bible to learn how to be saved.

For by grace, ( Grace means unearned favor. Unearned because our work are not good enough to be saved. ) are ye saved by faith. Faith is being a true believer.

As you can see here this has nothing to do with a head faith, but a heart faith. Head faith example I believe that Jesus lived and died on a cross. Heart faith example, I believe that Jesus died for me. It changed my whole life. I have never been the same after I called on his name and ask him to save me from my sins. This covers faith and saved.

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I can not work my way to salvation no matter what I do. Works like giving money to help folks. Helping little old ladies across the street or even religious works like going to church or getting baptized will not save me. many of these works are good, we could do all of these works and more. They can not and will not save me. I am a sinner because I have sinned. Only Jesus can save me from my sins.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

When we get saved we need to do good works, not to get saved or stay saved, because we were created to do good works. This is the reason why we do good works. We all need to do good works. We also need to know that these good works have nothing to do with us being saved.

So read everything I have posted here. real my last post about God's simple plan of salvation. Jerry also made made a good post read it and think it over.

Jamie

1880 Chinese King James Discovered
 

Today in the Chinese speaking church, 90% of Chinese Christians use the Chinese Union Translation (CUT) and the English NIV version - both based on Westcot and Hort's Revised Standard Version. And there is no Bible Society today that publishes a Chinese version of the Bible that agrees with the King James Version / Textus Receptus.

However, in 1880/1885, 30 years before the CUT was published and prior to Westcot & Hort's Revised Version - The Presbyterian Mission in Shanghai published an English and Chinese King James Version of the New Testament.

After much searching..... we have found the 1880/1885 Chinese and English version of the King James.

You can freely download this Chinese-English Version from our website at http://lutheranchurch.cn

Your brother in Christ,

Pr. JC Smith
Kaohsiung Lutheran Mission


Thank you

Bro. Smith,

I love seeing this on your site my friend. It is all about faith Bro Smith. I hope God will bless you as you move forward with the Lords work. I'm going to ad you to my prayer list. God bless you Bro. Smith.

:D


Atlas

You have to RECEIVE the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

This is the "KEY" to understanding the Gospel of the Grace of God.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

There is a difference in believing ABOUT God; the Lord Jesus Christ; and the Gospel and beleiving IN Him! If you truly believe IN Him - you will TRUST him for your Salvation and He will save you. 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

That's when you receive the Gift of God. John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Uh, can you elaborate Jerry?

I think I understand what Jerry is saying. You cannot depend on works, or even Christ plus works, for salvation because then your faith is not fully in Christ.

But it does raise a question in my mind: Can a person truely accept Christ as Savior, then not be properly discipled or study the Word, and end up in a church that teaches false doctrine and end up believing that baptism, or whatever, is neccessary? I've wondered the same thing about people who believe you can lose your salvation because it seems to me they're saying Christ's sacrifice isn't perfect.

Isn't Paul speaking to true believers here:

Yes, it certainly is possible for someone to get confused and mix things up if they spend too much time listening to false doctrine or hanging around with false brethren. What it comes down to then is: what did they believe at the time they professed to come to the Lord for salvation? If they believed in works then, they never were saved. If they truly believed the Gospel according to the Scriptures at that point in time, then they are saved - they unfortunately are seriously confused/deceived and need to spend some major time in God's Word sorting out what the Bible says - not what their cultic friends have taught them.

Jerry, what makes you think everything you believe is absolutely the only way something can be understood? You keep mentioning "false doctrine" making "God-Almighty" statemenst as if you were the one who wrote the Bible. You are arrogant and come across in many of your comments as rough and intolerant. You say you are intolerant of false doctrine, never supposing you might be the one in error.

Revangelist,

How did you get saved?

What is keeping you saved?

Is it the works of Jesus Christ you your works that are keeping you saved?



Atlas

Are you having a bad day?

If you - a professing believer? - are not sure of your doctrine, there are certainly problems you need to sort out! I am very sure of my doctrine - the fundamentals of the faith have not changed, neither have the Baptist Distinctives (which I also believe) - I am not on here debating minor little quirks or misunderstandings of doctrines, but major ones in the Scriptures - of which we all should be able to agree on. If not, then you need to study out what the Bible does say on those issues and there stand there.

Jerry, I read you post about CCM. Your thing about "back-beats" sounded very ignorant. You spoke as if Scriptures supported your view. Because I disagreed with you, you question my salvation (I'm supposing that is what the "?" was for). "Baptist Distinctives" aren't necessarily all Scripturally sound. Methodists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians all believe salvation is by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ, but they aren't believers in eternal security or other doctrines of that nature. You should show a little more grace. You postings about music were your own personal preferences, not necessarily Biblical. You need to lighten up. You push people away with your argumentative attitude, like others on this forum. Our goal is to win people for Jesus Christ, not question their salvation because they disagree with us.

1880 A.D. Chinese King James
 

Thank you

Revangelist,

You are 100% correct. Everyone of these groups are going to heaven because God saved them and THEY kept themselves saved. They all like to add works to salvation. If you can lose it by something you have done it has to be YOUR works that keeps you saved. All of you guys believe in salvation by faith + works, YOUR WORKS. That is a false doctrine. It is called works for salvation. See if you can lose your salvation only God + your works can get you to heaven. Without YOUR works you will go to hell.

Only YOUR WORKS can keep you saved. That is what you teach and preach. We preach and teach GOD'S WORKS saved us and KEPP us saved. Your salvation is depending on self and good works. Our salvation depends on JESUS and HIS GOOD WORKS.

Atlas

I never questioned your salvation - the "?" meant I was not completely sure what you were saying or getting at.

Just because you don't agree with my position does not make me arrogant. Attitude drips all over your post above, yet you are calling my posting into question. Maybe you need to look in the mirror.

I never said all the people in the denomination are saved. Not all Baptists are saved either. Going to a Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal or Presbyterian church doesn't make anyone a Christian any more than going to McDonalds makes one a Big Mac. Salvation is personal. As far as works is concerned, salvation is not by works. However, you must CHOOSE to be saved. So, you can CHOOSE not to be, either.

Jerry, maybe my attitude needs adjusting. But you have made incindiary remarks, I've read them. However, that doesn't excuse me if I'm guilty.

If you can show me where I have made unChristlike remarks on these boards, I will acknowledge my sin and made it right. However, being sure of my doctrine and refuting error is not a sin.

Revangelist,


Can you decide one day not to be your fathers son and it be true. I was born of God, he is my father. I can not end our relationship because I decide I'm not his son.

My earthly father, Darrell is my father, ( I call him Daddy ). I do not care what I do Darrell is my father. I was born of him, I will always be son of Darrell and I'll always be son of God. I can decide as I wish I can not change who is my father after I am born of his works.

Wrong again. Salvation is by works, HIS WORKS. HIS WORKS also keep me saved.

Who's works are keeping you saved?

Your works or HIS works?

Someones works are keeping you saved that is a fact. The only question is who's works?

Who's works are keeping you saved?


Atlas