When I got to college, Spanish ceased to be taught as a required course. Our language they say is close to Spanish. Unfortunately, I don't even know much about which of our words came from Spanish!:sad:

Greeting to each of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is a link that explain how the word of God is recognized in any language:

http://www.preachinginpoland.com/Recognize.htm

I would have pasted it here, but thought it might be too long.

I have been preaching the gospel in Mexico (10 years) and Poland (13+ years) and have unique insights into the Bible issue in foreign languages. Food for thought:

1) Whatever principles lead us to believe the AV is the word of God in English should, must and are used by born again spirit filled Christians in other lands speaking other languages.

2) Remember there was no fight with God given Bibles in foreign languages prior to 1881. Since then even AV Bible believers have become Bible critics.

3) Any type of doctrine about "preservation" must give valid examples of how this works i.e. how does "preservation" jump from one language to another? The Greek and Hebrew Scriptures did not suddenly stop being "the Scriptures" when translated into other languages. The word of God existed PRIOR to 1611 and AFTER 1611. The word of God is not limited to "one language". Each major language has the word of God - the version that God wants them to have - recognized by the same principles that lead English believers to the Standard in English - the AV.

In Jesus' Name,

Brent Riggs
http://www.preachinginpoland.com

William Carey Bible Society
 

I just found your forum, and I'm quite interested in the comments surrounding the William Carey Bible Society. I am one of the members of the steering commitee for the society, and we are definitely, without apology, Bible believers.
You might also find it interesting to note that each one of us have differing angles and opinions about the whole Bible translation issue. One gentleman was quick to point out that based on our doctrinal statement we were TR men. Might I suggest, that we be less hasty to judgement and quicker to get to the truth. I am an avid KJV supporter. I believe in the verbal, plenary inspiration of the scriptures. I also believe that God is not limited to one language (English is not the language of heaven-Americans are not the chosen). He can inspire in 18 languages at one time -if He so chooses, ie. Acts 2.
The more I study -the more convinced I am that God is bigger than any of our little boxes. He cannot be confined to our theories. We should spend more time learning of Him and about Him than comparing ourselves among ourselves. We can do this with a free exchange of ideas. The problem is everyone is afraid to say what they really think, because the brethren are quick to stone one who does not quite fit the "party line." Last I checked we called ourselves INDEPENDANT Baptists. We have One mediator. We don't believe in a pope or hierchy. At least that is what we tell people.
Your thoughts?

Preserved words of God, inerrant Bible?
 

Hi Daniel. I agree with you that God COULD inspire His word in 18 languages. However, do you know of any other language where He has done so? If you really believe the King James Bible is the inspired and inerrant words of God, do you honestly know of any other Bible in any other language that is also the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God? If so, could you please tell us where we can find such a copy and so be able to compare it to what we have in the King James Bible.

Otherwise it seems to me that your are fudging the definitions of complete, verbal and inerrant. I agree that the simple gospel can be found in any bible in any language that is out there in the world. But this does not make them the complete and inerrant words of God. Inspiration and inerrancy go far beyond just the few words about the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour as preached in Acts 2.

Thank you for your thoughts,

Will K

Re: "The William Carey Bible Society"
 

Aloha Mitex & Daniel Haifley,

There are not many Bible believers on this Forum that would insist that God's word should not be translated into other languages, or deny that there are several (older) Bible translations out there that contain the word of God. {Quite a few of us pray for and support brother John Hinton's efforts to produce Bibles in other languages.}

My claim is that God has only ONE FINAL AUTHORITY or ONE FINAL STANDARD "BIBLE" and it's NOT 5,500 Greek Manuscripts with the numerous Greek Texts; and it's NOT the various Hebrew texts that are now in existence.

I believe that the King James Bible is God's FINAL AUTHORITY on earth (inspired, perfect, Holy and without error), and if any translation (in any language) is in agreement with the words found therein, then those are the words of God, and if any translation DIFFERS with the words of the King James Bible (in any particular place), then that translation is in error wherever it differs from God's FINAL AUTHORITY.

I have posted elsewhere, the reason's for my belief in God's Final Authority if you care to check it out:

http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.ph...78&postcount=1
http://av1611.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16032&postcount=33

Most of us on this Forum are NOT unreasonable, we just believe that God PRESERVED His Holy word in the King James Bible, and it is our FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice. {Brother Will Kinney's Post #54 briefly state's the attitude of most of the members of this Forum. If the King James Bible is NOT God's inspired, perfect, Holy, word of God on earth today - which Bible translation is?}

{Just a side note to Daniel Haifley: Not all of the members on this Forum are Independent Baptists. If you search the Forum Biographies - not many of us identify ourselves with a particular sect or denomination. We're all Christian brethren here, regardless of the church we may attend.} :)

The Greek and Hebrew Scriptures have not lost their status, but have lost their practicality as Scripture. Not many people know these languages, and they are not fit as common standards.

Moreover, there is no definitive standard in the Hebrew or Greek. Which variant in the Bomberg-Mesoretic tradition do we follow? Which TR, out of the many varying editions, do we follow?

The Word of God has not historically been limited to one language... but this is not strictly true: in the inspiration, each book was limited to the language it was written in, usually Hebrew for the OT, and Greek for the NT. Therefore, each autograph was limited to one language until copies were made that were translated.

Since we observe the world turning toward one language as common, it makes sense to have a standard Bible for all in that language.

Now, if we study textually, we see that the KJB has exactly the correct readings as are scattered in the original language evidence. If we study translationally, we see that the KJB has the very sense of the original being given in English. The KJB is the best Bible in the world, the most widespread and the most recognisable standard. More importantly, on detailed examination, it exhibits a level of perfection unattained in any other Bible Version or Translation. No other presentation of Scripture seems to distinguish the difference between "vail" and "veil", etc.

Therefore, the standard of the KJB is not limited to just the traditional English-speaking nations, but for all men who have English as a language they understand and use. And this is fitting, because we know that the KJB is accurate, unlike new, foreign or quasi-original works, about which we cannot be certain since there is some mystery covering them.

While having a Polish Bible that is fairly accurate has been acceptable, it would be far better for many reasons (including economics and learning) to have Poles learning English and then using the KJB than to foist upon them a potentially second-rate translation which, while might be good, is not the best.

Since the Scripture indicates one language prophetically in Isaiah 28:11 and Zephaniah 3:9, and since this is being prepared before the Millennium, we can quite rightly expect that God’s Word in the last days should be in one global language.

This means that the labours in making foreign translations, (which are barely being accomplished anyway), would rather but put, along with money, time and effort, into spreading the KJB and the English language to those folk. While some may speak against this cultural influence, and attempt to barricade people from this, it must be shown that such a view is actually one of hindering the Gospel.

“And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people” (Revelation 14:6). The ultimate way one Gospel is progressing throughout the world is where one Bible is made common for all and held as standard, despite what language is their “mother tongue”. (In Christ’s day, everyone was at least bi-lingual - see Pilate's superscription).

There is a distinction between being TRO and being more specifically KJBO. Edward Hills wrote that the KJB is an independent variety of the TR. It is, in fact, the final form of the Received Text.

TROs tend to allow for changes to the KJB, as well as promoting foreign translations. Invariably these translations do not even match the text of the KJB is specific places, perhaps because they are using Scrivener's Greek as standard rather than the KJB. This is probably because TROs see the original languages as more authoritative than English.

The problem with the TRO view is that it cannot properly answer how to determine a difference or variation between TR readings, and allows for differing translations.

Another problem is that TRO Bible study might mean going to the Greek and defining the Greek. For example, D. A. Waite talks about Greek words and interpreting the Scripture on that basis, rather than what the English says, and what the English means. This problem manifests itself in some of the definitions of the Defined KJV too.

David Cloud talks about the possibility of altering the English, which even Edward Hills suggested, but Hills also showed why it would not work, saying, "But in that case any version which we prepare today would be equally antiquated."

TROs often use jargon, such as "VPI" and "VPP". Sure, they might be avid "KJV supporters" (they tend to say "KJV" instead of KJB), but this support does not seem go so far as to encoruge Bible Colleges to teach English so that they might learn the Scripture better, etc. i.e. Greek studies continue, along with the aims for more translations.

In short, they view the Scripture as being primarily in the originals, and do not definitively believe that it is 100% perfect in the English. For example, D. A. Waite says that the KJB is accurate, but that it cannot present 100% what was in the originals because, according to him, it is impossible to get 100% of the sense from the originals into English.

This actually denies that every jot and tittle is pure and perfect in the KJB. Jots, we are told by some TROs, are in the Hebrew or Greek. But "jot" is an English word in the English Bible with an English meaning listed in an English dictionary!

Again, if the Scripture cannot be 100% in text and/or translation, then how can verses such as these following be true?

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Ro 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

It is therefore the work of Christ to order in His Church such ministries, offices and investments as are necessary and right, according to His working, to set about to provide in the earth His witness of true Scripture, and the furthering of the knowledge of it.

Unashamedly, I say that we had rather have one standard, according to Isaiah’s prophecies (e.g. 59:19), than to have what the Dean Burgon Society labours to attain, which is thousands of translations to every tribe and dialect, rather than conformity to one standard for all, made common, and proved to be true.

I find that David Livingston taught the brightest and most zealous natives English, and that they would be set to be the future spiritual leaders. I find that in Australia, the Aborigines were taught English, and it took until 2007 for a complete Bible (a modern version) to be made in just one of their dialects. I say that the aims of Richard Hakluyt, Oliver Cromwell and others were higher, and that the William Carey Bible Society is viewing things with the limitations of the nineteenth century, rather than having the nineteenth century truth advancing for all.

And was there not in addition something muscularly Christian about the language that was spoken? (Dean Trench was quite certain that there was.) Might it not be that making an inventory of the language, and by so doing asserting and underlining its greatness, would not just help the English language around the globe? By thus extending its usefulness and ubiquity it would not only spread English influence abroad, but spread the influence of the Church ... into the darkness of the ... world as well. -- Simon Winchester, 2004, The Meaning of Everything, OUP.

While having a Polish Bible that is fairly accurate has been acceptable, it would be far better for many reasons (including economics and learning) to have Poles learning English and then using the KJB than to foist upon them a potentially second-rate translation which, while might be good, is not the best.

Agree 100%.

As mentioned on my other thread Bro Riggs has already fallen into the trap of changing EASTER (Wielka Noc) to PASSOVER.

Furthermore, the 'salvation' verses in the Gdanska Bible are word for word KJB and perfectly understandable.

Much deeper study would require learning English and using the KJB side by side with the Gdanska. Most young Poles can understand English.

He probably would have been better off doing a parallel Gdanska/KJB just like the Luther/KJB parallel Bible which is available from the Bible Bookstore.

I support Manny and Brett(Mitex) on this thread. I’ve seen Scripture quoted out of context, wrongly divided (O.T. prophecy to Israel applied to the Body of Christ), and private interpretation of Scripture applied to support an unbiblical and extra-biblical precept that borders on British Israelism, namely, the binding of the words of God to one language that emulates (Gal. 5:20) the Roman Catholic Church confining their cheap counterfeit of the Bible to Latin for 1700 years and the Islamic teaching that their word of God (the Koran) be confined to Arabic.
I think we all need to sit back and re-examine just exactly what we are saying, we need to illuminate the ideological contentions in this thread with the light of Scripture to let us see what we are saying because this forum is not observed by members only but a great many guests, Christian and non.

1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Are the Scriptures we believe the opinions of man or the words of God? The matter is one of final authority and wielding that authority, using that sword of the Spirit, is effective in how deep are our thrusts in service to God or too ourselves. The same sword we use to vanquish the devices of Satan has another edge that can come right back around and slash us. A surgeon is useless without a scalpel. He can take that scalpel and save a life out of service to another or take a life out of selfish interest.

1co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
I think Manny and Brett have been ill used in this thread with little charity from the heart, the majority of that charity being eye-service and not from the heart. Their call to celebrate with them and share the blessing and joy of saved souls in other lands has been turned into a stone that some of us can grind our axes against. No matter how kind our responses, no matter how much we have been Christian gentleman, the motive remains the same: a private interpretation of Scripture wrested out of context. If we can lay aside our quasi-British Israelite fury in thinking we can convert the whole earth to the English language without smart bombs and aircraft carriers, if I can squelch the sudden urge to jump up and practice my goose step, I have a few specific questions I’d like to address based on the Scripture below:

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1.-I want to know why you people are forbidding these men from their translation work that I discern they have been called by God to do( and not Satan) leading to the subsequent damnation of the souls they care about, and subsequent loss of rewards for both them and you?
2.-Why are you people impeding these men’s (to me) God called desire to “interpret” God’s words into other “tongues” of nations embalmed in Roman Catholicism and starved for the truth?(Amos 8-11)
3-Whose commandments are found in both letters to the Corinthians?

1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
One of my favorite verses in the Scriptures is in my signature. Imagine God’s words as a boomerang. He tosses it out there and each and every word He has ever spoke comes right back to Him, with souls attached to it. He casts His net into the sea and brings out fish. Am I wrong? Does he want gold or crude oil? Does He need one of the new 128-bit PCs on the horizon with Windows 7?
Paul’s discourse on “tongues” and “unknown tongues” mean more than just the supernatural gift and sign of an Apostle to speak in a language to witness to Jews, it has an application to us today in not speaking the words of God in an unknown language to the hearers. The Catholic Church disobeyed God for 1700 years in making Goths and Huns and Franks hear only what they said were Gods words and in an unknown language (Latin) to them.
I’m not ignorant of Satan’s devices. It’s going to be interesting to see at The White Throne Judgement how many Jesuits under oath there were in the KJO movement transposing their “Latin only” myth over now and making it into an “English only” myth. It only takes one neutron to trigger a nuclear explosion, it only take one lie to stain many truths. Question 4 is even more interesting, it’s multiple choice:
4. Who lead these men into this work? Was it (a.)God, (b)the deception of Satan, or (c)their own flesh edifying and glorifying itself?

“English is the world language, the air traffic controllers in Red China speak English…” and the rest of 1 billion Red Chinese don’t.
5. Are only Red Chinese air traffic controllers in Red China going to be saved?

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

Well brother, your expectation is in vain, because the Scripture you cite is strictly to Israel and not the Body of Christ, unless you believe the Body of Christ is the “New Israel”? Just as water baptism is the “New Circumcision” and Sunday is the “New Sabbath”?

Let’s do a little expository Bible study:

Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people(Israel).
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest(The Millenium) wherewith ye may cause the weary(Israel) to rest; and this is the refreshing(The Millenium): yet they(Isreal) would not hear.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(Israel); and yet for all that will they(Israel) not hear me, saith the Lord.
Zeph. 3:9 For then will I turn to the people(Isreal) a pure language, that they(Israel) may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

Friends, I seem to remember once when the peoples of the whole earth spoke one language:

Gen. 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Gen. 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Yea, the whole world was of one language and united, united behind one goal with “one consent”: Rebellion against God. So I better get as many surplus weather balloons as I can and stuff them to the gills with McGuffeys Readers and float them towards Cuba, North Korea, and Iran as fast as I can.

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Would to God we had Paul with us today, all we are left with are the Mannys and the Bretts who desire to interpret the pure words of God, found in the pure word of God preserved in English, the KJV, to the best of their ability to people of many tongues and nations. I’m persuaded in both my mind and heart are they doing God’s work, and have yet to see any Scriptural roadblocks to their doing just that. I’ve made that judgment and believe it’s a righteous judgment.

Acts 16: 16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.

Paul, Silas, Luke, Timothy, Lydia, and other Christians were on their way to prayer when a devil-possessed woman followed them, amening to their faith and it’s doctrines. Not wanting the gospel of Christ to be associated with occultic practices of Satan, Paul, using the power of the Lord, cast the devil out.
Here we sit in the Pauline age of Grace with clear commandments of the Lord on preaching the gospel of Christ and teaching the Scriptures to those who speak and understand “unknown tongues” that we don’t speak or understand, to “interpret” the gospel and the Scriptures.
My final question is this: Are we going to aid Manny and Brett or are we going to let the doctrine of devils of Islamic and Catholic elitism cause us to follow them, shouting, “You can have the pure words of God but not in your own language”?

Read Genesis 11 like I did friends, and see if the Spirit of God said the same things to you He did to me, which is contained in this message reply.

Grace and peace.

Tony

How many complete, inspired and inerrant Bibles are there?
 

Hi Tony. This is just my own opinion, but in the main I am in agreement with you. I applaud the efforts of such brethren to take the gospel to the far ends of the earth. My wife and I also support missionaries in foreign lands. I do not at all believe one must learn English or be a King James Bible onlyist in order to get saved and grow in Christ.

However, where I do have a disagreement is when other brothers who use foreign language Bibles (Spanish, Polish, French, German, Swahili or whatever) try to make the claim that these other foreign language Bibles are also the complete, inspired and inerrant words of God, just like the King James Bible is. They are not; at least, I have never seen one yet that is. Some of them can be quite good and God can definitely use them to save souls; but that does not mean they are the 100% pure and preserved "Book of the LORD".

I have posted this before, (sorry for the repetition) but I still hold to this position.

If the King James Bible in English is the perfect words of God, then What About Other Languages?


This is a good question but not at all hard to answer if you think about it. God never promised to give every nation or every individual a perfect Bible. It certainly never turned out this way in history, did it?

In fact, for the first 3000 to 4000 years of recorded history, there was only one nation on earth that had the true words of God. "He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation, and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD." Psalm 147:19-20.

Now that the gospel is going out to the nations, the only promise from God we have is that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matthew 24:14

The gospel of salvation through the substitutionary death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is found in any bible in any language it has been translated into, no matter how poorly or partially done it may be. God can and does use other bible versions, partial translations, or just simple gospel tracts to bring His people to faith in Christ. I do not deny but strongly affirm this to be true.

But that does not make these other partial translations, bible tracts or versions the perfect words of God. There has to be at least one perfect Bible in this world that serves as the Final Authority and Standard by which all others are measured.

It certainly does not exist in the Hebrew or the Greek. There is no "the Hebrew" and much less is there "the" Greek. Besides, once a complete Bible is put together, there has to be a translation of some kind in order to put both the Old and New Testaments into one language. Since God has promised to preserve His WORDS (not just the general, ballpark approximation) in the book of the LORD, this book must exist somewhere.

All the evidence points to the King James Bible as being that book for the last almost 400 years. It was the KJB that was used by English and American missionaries to carry to gospel to the nations in the greatest missionary movement in history. It was the KJB that was carried out into space and read from.

I believe in the sovereignty of God in history. "For the kingdom is the LORD'S; and He is the governor among the nations." Psalm 22:28. God has set His mark upon many things in this world that reveal His Divine hand at work in history. Why do we use the 7 day week instead of the 10 day week? Why are dates either B.C. (Before Christ) or A.D. (Anno Domini - year of our Lord)? (although the secular world is now trying in vain to change this too to BCE and CE.) England just "happens to be" the one nation from which we measure the true Time (Greenwich time, zero hour) and from which we measure true Position, zero longitude. In 1611 the English language was spoken by a mere 3% of the world's population, but today English has become the closest thing to a universal language in history. God knew He would use England, its language and the King James Bible to accomplish all these things long before they happened.

Today it is only the King James Bible believer who boldly maintains that there really is an inerrant, complete and 100% true Holy Bible on this earth that a person can actually hold it in his hands and read and believe every word. All modern version proponents deny that any tangible, “hold it in your hands and read Bible” IS now the inerrant words of God.

God only holds us accountable for the light He has been pleased to give us. To whom much is given, from him shall much be required - "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48. God has given to the English speaking people His perfect words in the King James Bible. We will be held far more accountable for what we have done with this Book than any other people.

To the degree that foreign language bible versions follow the same underlying Hebrew and Greek texts, and to the degree that their individual translations match those found in the King James Bible, to that degree they can be considered to be the true words of God. To the degree that they depart from both the texts and meanings found in the KJB, to that degree they are corrupt and inferiour.

I do not believe that every foreigner in non-English speaking countries needs to learn the English language and read the King James Bible. Salvation through faith in the substitutionary death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is not only found the King James Bible. If there are several different versions in their own native language (Spanish, German, Russian, Chinese, or whatever), then I would recommend they use the one that most closely follows the same Hebrew and Greek texts that underlie the King James Bible. If they only have a translation based on the ever changing, modern Critical Texts, then they should thank God for what they do have and use it.

Regarding the question of “Well, what about before 1611?” please see my article here:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/before1611.html

As for: “Can a Translation be inspired?” please see:

http://www.geocities.com/brandplucked/transinsp.html

This is how I see it and what I believe. Not a difficult question at all.

In contrast to the KJB believer's views, the multiple choice, contradictory meanings, and "different, omitted, added, or made up underlying texts" proponent has no Final Written Authority or Standard by which all others are to be judged, and he has no inspired, inerrant and 100% true Bible to give or recommend to anyone.

By His grace, accepted in the Beloved,

Will Kinney