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Ripdood 07-12-2009 07:51 AM

Webster's Dictionary 1828
 
As I have studied the various threads on the forum. I have noticed a trend that bothers me.

Time and time again members when discussing something, refer to the 1828 Edition of Webster’s Dictionary. While I have personally nothing against Mr. Webster or his dictionary, I do find it distressing that some quote it giving it the same level of authority with the Holy Word of God (the King James Bible).

As I pondered this I began to wonder about Mr. Webster. The following excerpts are from various sources on the Internet.


Mr. Webster’s biographical info:

Born in West Hartford, Connecticut in 1758, Noah Webster came of age during the American Revolution and was a strong advocate of the Constitutional Convention. He believed fervently in the developing cultural independence of the United States, a chief part of which was to be a distinctive American language with its own idiom, pronunciation, and style.

In 1806 Webster published A Compendious Dictionary of the English Language, the first truly American dictionary. For more information on this milestone in American reference publishing, please see Noah Webster’s Spelling Reform and A Sample Glossary from A Compendious Dictionary of the English Language. Immediately thereafter he went to work on his magnum opus, An American Dictionary of the English Language, for which he learned 26 languages, including Anglo-Saxon and Sanskrit, in order to research the origins of his own country's tongue. This book, published in 1828, embodied a new standard of lexicography; it was a dictionary with 70,000 entries that was felt by many to have surpassed Samuel Johnson's 1755 British masterpiece not only in scope but in authority as well.

One facet of Webster's importance was his willingness to innovate when he thought innovation meant improvement. He was the first to document distinctively American vocabulary such as skunk, hickory, and chowder. Reasoning that many spelling conventions were artificial and needlessly confusing, he urged altering many words: musick to music, centre to center, and plough to plow, for example. (Other attempts at reform met with less acceptance, however, such as his support for modifying tongue to tung and women to wimmen—the latter of which he argued was "the old and true spelling" and the one that most accurately indicated its pronunciation.) http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/noah.htm

Mr. Webster’s Religious Views:

Webster was a devout Christian. His speller was grounded in Scripture, and his first lesson began "Be not anxious for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink ; nor for your body, what ye shall put on ; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of these things."

His 1828 American Dictionary contained the greatest number of Biblical definitions given in any reference volume. Webster considered education "useless without the Bible". Webster claimed to have learned 20 different languages in finding definitions for which a particular word is used.

From the preface to the 1828 edition of Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language:

“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed... . No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”

Webster released his own edition of the Bible in 1833, called the Common Version. He used the King James Version (KJV) as a base and consulted the Hebrew and Greek along with various other versions and commentaries. Webster molded the KJV to correct grammar, replaced words that were no longer used, and did away with words and phrases that could be seen as offensive. (I made this bold for a reason. A downloadable copy of his version is available here, if you wish to compare it). http://www.believersresource.com/con...e-webster.html )

All editions of Webster's Dictionary published in 1913 and earlier, along with the Webster Bible and Dissertation on the English Language are available in the public domain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Webster


Over and over we talk about how it is wrong to correct the Word of God whether by addition or subtraction. Here we have a man who is constantly quoted as an authority on terms and language in the English language as it appears in our Bible. The emphasized portion in the above quote shows the Mr. Webster corrected the King James.

Let’s take a look at an example of a Webster’s definition. (This one caught my attention this morning; it is not a reflection of the member who used it his post. Just an example)

Pastor - noun
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of the church and congregation, whose duty it is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the Christian religion. http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/pastor


Look at the definition, especially item 2. “instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the Christian religion” Where do we get our doctrine we live by brothers and sisters? Is it from religion or from the Holy Word of God?

Any book any person produces it is flavored with their own opinions, slant, and take on things; whether it is Ruckman, Riplinger, Spurgeon, Gipp, or any other popular Christian writer. We must take care not to impose too much authority on anyone’s interpretation of the Words of God. Any other author who is quoted or referenced here, it seems everyone knows much about the writer, Mr. Webster it seems is accepted without anyone ever checking into his background. His dictionary is a great Bible study tool, but it is only a tool not the Final Authority on Scripture. Only Scripture can define Scripture.

Steve Schwenke 07-12-2009 01:09 PM

I appeal to the dictionary only to clarify what the Bible already says. We must have a standard of defining words, so that we don't talk past each other. So, if I cannot give a precise definition to a word, I look it up in the dictionary, test the dictionary with the Scripture to see if the Scripture agrees with how the word is defined, and when it agrees, I use it to bring clarification to the argument, and to keep the argument focused on the correct thing.

If we discuss "ordinances" and Chette thinks "ordinance" means one thing, and I think "ordinance" means something else, but we never agree on a definition of the word, the discussion becomes useless. The dictionary brings us to a point where we should be able to agree on how a word is being used, and then we might be able to get somewhere. Otherwise, we are right back in Judges where everyone does that which is right in his own eyes, because there is no common definition of the words we use.

(BTW - my mentioning Chette and "ordinances" was only an illustration - not an attack! Please do not take offence!!!:eek: )

So the final authority for doctrine, etc is the AV. The Dictionary brings clarification to the words we use in our dialogues so that we can understand what we are saying to each other. It also helps us understand how the Bible uses words, particularly those that have multiple meanings, and particularly those that are being misused in modern language.

Jassy 07-12-2009 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Schwenke (Post 23791)
FWIW, I think you are reading too much into this definition. It is the pastor's function to teach the Christian what to believe and how to live.

I Tim. 3:1 ¶ This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

All of the other major portions of Scripture dealing with the Pastor reflect the same thought. Eph. 4:11-15, Acts 20, I Pet. 5. That is part of the function of the office.

I've got to disagree with something you said. You stated:
"It is the pastor's function to teach the Christian what to believe and how to live."
First of all, "apt to teach" WHAT? It is the pastor's function to teach the TRUTH and that means showing what the BIBLE says. Never should a pastor interpret Scripture privately and teach what he thinks a Christian ought to know, or teach the way that he thinks a Christian ought to live.

Let the Bible tell the Christian directly.

Therefore, a pastor should be encouraging the Believer to pray and to go to the Word of God for wisdom and understanding. A pastor should trust the Holy Spirit to guide Christians in their daily Christian walk.

I'm adding something that follows the thread. Of course, the Bible should be the source of all truth. Yet I see nothing wrong with going to Webster's 1828 Dictionary to clarify unfamiliar terminology. We don't go to Webster for doctrine or for other biblical purposes. We go directly to the Bible for that. However, using Webster's 1828 Dictionary is certainly not anti-Christian!

Jassy

Winman 07-12-2009 02:25 PM

Jassy

I respectfully disagree with you. Bro Steve did not really say anything wrong there when he says a pastor should teach the Christian what to believe.

2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

So, I think the Bible shows that it is a pastor and a bishop's duty to continually be aware of false doctrine and correct it.

George 07-12-2009 02:45 PM

Re: "Webster's Dictionary 1828"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jassy (Post 23796)
I've got to disagree with something you said. You stated:
"It is the pastor's function to teach the Christian what to believe and how to live."
First of all, "apt to teach" WHAT? It is the pastor's function to teach the TRUTH and that means showing what the BIBLE says. Never should a pastor interpret Scripture privately and teach what he thinks a Christian ought to know, or teach the way that he thinks a Christian ought to live.

Let the Bible tell the Christian directly.

Therefore, a pastor should be encouraging the Believer to pray and to go to the Word of God for wisdom and understanding. A pastor should trust the Holy Spirit to guide Christians in their daily Christian walk.

I'm adding something that follows the thread. Of course, the Bible should be the source of all truth. Yet I see nothing wrong with going to Webster's 1828 Dictionary to clarify unfamiliar terminology. We don't go to Webster for doctrine or for other biblical purposes. We go directly to the Bible for that. However, using Webster's 1828 Dictionary is certainly not anti-Christian!

Jassy


Aloha sister Jassy,

Right on sister! :amen:

It is an elder's/pastor's job to "give themselves to the ministry of the word" and to "preach the word" - NOT "to teach the Christian what to believe and how to live."! :( Somebody is trying to REPLACE the Holy Spirit! :tsk: "Discernment", "Understanding" and "Wisdom" come from the Holy Spirit of God - NOT some man! [1Corinthians 2: 1-16]
Quote:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Acts 6:4
But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.


Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
You're on the right track sister - keep up the good work! :)

Winman 07-12-2009 02:57 PM

George, you probably won't answer me, that's OK. But when 2 Tim 4:2 says reprove, the very definition of this word means to:

From Strong's Concordance;

1) to convict, refute, confute
a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
b) by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
2) to find fault with, correct
a) by word
1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation
b) by deed
1) to chasten, to punish

Those are strong words, to convict someone with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted, to expose, to find fault with, correct, chide, admonish, call to account, show one his fault, chasten, to punish.

So, I still believe it is a pastor and bishop's duty to correct those in his care. You know, a shepherd does keep the wolves from attacking the sheep, but also once in a while a shepherd has to strike the sheep who would stray from the flock for it's own good. That is a shepherd's job.

George 07-12-2009 02:58 PM

Re: "Bible Studies"
 
Aloha brother Gary,

I'm with you 100% per cent of the way brother! :amen: The Bible is it's own "BEST DICTIONARY"! And when it comes to spiritual issues NEVER trust Webster, or Strong, or some Lexicon. The following are some comments (on this Forum) that I have made before on this subject:

Quote:

"For most "Old English" words I have used Webster's 1828 Dictionary - However, when it comes to any words that may have significant spiritual meaning I always use the Bible only (words like: soul, spirit, heart, mind, conscience, etc.). When it comes to spiritual meanings of some words Noah Webster may not have understood their meaning - because God may not have shown him."

"I did not obtain these definitions from Webster's Dictionary or Strong's Concordance or any book, article, etc. written by another man. When it comes to spiritual matters Webster & Strong are very little help, since only God can give us the discernment, understanding, and wisdom to understand His words. These definitions are the result of searching the Scriptures for over a year in pursuit of a study that I have done on the Biblical heart of man:"

"Webster's 1828 English Dictionary may be of some "help" when looking up a so-called "archaic" English word; but I have made it a practice, for over 40 years now, that whenever a word in the Bible has any "spiritual significance" at all, to never trust Webster or the Lexicons - instead I have relied on the Holy Spirit to reveal to me what God has to say about a particular subject or issue by searching the scriptures and comparing scripture with scripture."

"I have been studying the King James Bible for 50 years now (40 of those years intensively). From 1968 up to 1996 I used either Young's Concordance or Strong's Concordance to look up English words in the Bible and to compare scripture with scripture (NEVER as a Lexicon i.e. to get the "meanings" of words). I can testify to you here and now that using Swordsearcher hasn't made my study just 10 times faster and more convenient - it has made my Bible study anywheres from 10 to 100 times faster and more convenient!"

"The word “spirit” (pertaining only to mankind – and excluding God’s Spirit or evil spirits, etc.) is mentioned approximately 144 times in 134 Verses in the Holy Bible. To accurately describe something that we cannot see, but accept by faith in the Scriptures, is extremely difficult. Webster’s Dictionary of 1828 is not that much help here either, because of the difficulty distinguishing between the soul and spirit (Check out Webster's "definition")."
When it comes to any word in the Bible which has any spiritual significance I do NOT recommend going to Webster's Dictionary. Search out the words (Scripture with Scripture) to find God's definition. When you have determined in your heart, mind, spirit and soul what the meaning is, you might check out Webster's as a comparison - but I recommend that you do not go to Webster's first - it might "influence" your search (without even knowing it.)

For your information, when it comes to the Biblical words soul, spirit, heart, mind, and conscience, Webster's will not be much help. Looking up the words and comparing Scripture with Scripture will give you a much more "accurate" definition than Webster.

Winman 07-12-2009 03:34 PM

1 Thess 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

I believe these verses tell a Christian to know (identify) those who labor and are over you in the Lord in the church. So, while we are brothers and sisters and equal, we are supposed to show high respect for the pastor, bishops, deacons, and elders. And vs. 14 says that we do have a duty to warn those who are unruly.

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Now who is it that speaks the word of God in church? The preacher, the pastor primarily.

Of course, I realize that some here do not believe Hebrews applies to the Gentile.

1 Tim 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)


1 Tim 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

So, I do believe the pastor is the shepherd over the flock. Of course, all these verses apply to a local body of believers.

greenbear 07-12-2009 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Schwenke (Post 23791)
FWIW, I think you are reading too much into this definition. It is the pastor's function to teach the Christian what to believe and how to live.

I Tim. 3:1 ¶ This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

All of the other major portions of Scripture dealing with the Pastor reflect the same thought. Eph. 4:11-15, Acts 20, I Pet. 5. That is part of the function of the office.

I see Jassy addressed the same point I have to make about your comment:
Quote:

It is the pastor's function to teach the Christian what to believe and how to live.
One of the problems is that the majority of pastors teach the doctrines and "way to live" (much of it works related) according to their particular denomination's traditions. There are hundreds of denominations and sects in the US alone with varying doctrines and as brother George pointed out apparently around 450 different baptist groups. It seems obvious that the reason why there are so many churches is that Christians do not search the scriptures to find out what God says but instead follow men and man's traditions. Why should I believe what you teach and follow your standards of conduct when I can go down the street and get a whole new set of beliefs and code of conduct from another pastor. We are told to compare what men teach with scripture. It's funny how taking that very scriptural stand has elicited some very negative responses on this board.

George gets attacked a lot on this board lately, as you pointed out. He's attacked on his posting style, his decision to avoid divisive people and his teaching from scripture. Honestly, the first two are not the real reasons for the attacks. It all boils down to his teaching of scripture. He has a high level of scriptural knowledge, he approaches the Bible to find out what it says, not to support his private interpretations and he posts his Bible studies. That's what the devil doesn't like.

Ripdood 07-12-2009 07:02 PM

Hey and howdy all,

I have been reading the replies to my posting and I think I need clear up something.

Quote:

Let’s take a look at an example of a Webster’s definition. (This one caught my attention this morning; it is not a reflection of the member who used it his post. Just an example)

Pastor - noun
1. A shepherd; one that has the care of flocks and herds
2. A minister of the gospel who has the charge of the church and congregation, whose duty it is to watch over the people of his charge, and instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the Christian religion. http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/pastor


Look at the definition, especially item 2. “instruct them in the sacred doctrines of the Christian religion” Where do we get our doctrine we live by brothers and sisters? Is it from religion or from the Holy Word of God?
I think I may have been misunderstood in my original post. My critique of the definition, was not aimed at the role of the pastor in the Bible.

Let me state this clearly, I AM NOT ANTI-PASTOR, I believe in the role of pastors in the church.

My contention was with the definition, the learning of doctrine from religion. We should get our doctirne from the Holy Bible. If a pastor isn't teaching it from the Bible we should separate ourselves from his teaching and go elsewhere. If anyone teaches a doctrine and bases it on what his church/denomination says we should not acccept it as fact.

There is an old saying I heard which I have always applied in my search for understanding and knowledge. "Just because I say it, or they say it; don't believe it search it out for yourself"

I have been in churches where people were taught the leadership was above reproach in all matters. I separated myself from them. The Holy Spirit is our only source which is above reproach he uses the Holy Word of God to speak to us as well as in our hearts.

I appreciate all who responded to my original post. Both sides made excellent points. But my post was not to belittle the pastor's role. As I stated:

Quote:

Let’s take a look at an example of a Webster’s definition. (This one caught my attention this morning; it is not a reflection of the member who used it his post. Just an example)
I only used that definition because it caught my eye this morning, and what Mr. Webster had said about where we get our doctrine.

I use Webster's, in fact I used it in my devotions/bible study the other night. I am reading in Genesis and ran across a word that I couldn't remember what it meant. A term related to a certain plant, not a spiritual word. And actually it started me on a thought process which I making for a great indepth Bible study.

Many years ago when I was still a teen, every Sunday morning our regular schedule was to have a certain preacher/pastor out of Virginia on the TV while we got ready for church. I loved to sit and listen to him. I had dreams of being a preacher one day, though I was unsaved at the time, but thought I was. One morning he made a statement about some item in his sermon, that same morning we covered the same passage in sunday school. My SS teacher interpreted it differently. Both men were Baptists and much more knowledgeable than I was, but it hit how two could be different in their views. I looked at the scripture later on my own and looked at verses that had the same words using my concordance in the back of my Bible. I didn't see it as either one of the men had. But it made sense to me.

And we have all heard that old saying, "When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, then seek no other sense."

Am I a genius when it comes to the Holy Word of God? NO!! I am a just a saved sinner who has the privilege of God speaking to me through his Word and the Holy Spirit.

Now I have rambled off on a rabbit trail, but the short point is we must test everything we learn or hear against Scripture.

Nuff said,

Ripdood 07-13-2009 08:16 AM

Addendum for discussion
 
Let me start off by stating I am not a literate man, when it comes to writing posts. I express my thoughts much better in person than I do in my writing.

I am not a divisive person. I don’t look to cause fights or people to lose their cool. I don’t make it my practice to attack a person, though I will express disagreement with their concepts.

My original post had two points I was trying to make.

1. Mr. Webster’s views on the King James Bible. He felt it necessary to correct it and put out his own version which the following quote from my original posting shows.

Quote:

Webster released his own edition of the Bible in 1833, called the Common Version. He used the King James Version (KJV) as a base and consulted the Hebrew and Greek along with various other versions and commentaries. Webster molded the KJV to correct grammar, replaced words that were no longer used, and did away with words and phrases that could be seen as offensive. (I made this bold for a reason. A downloadable copy of his version is available here, if you wish to compare it). http://www.believersresource.com/con...e-webster.html

All editions of Webster's Dictionary published in 1913 and earlier, along with the Webster Bible and Dissertation on the English Language are available in the public domain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Webster


Over and over we talk about how it is wrong to correct the Word of God whether by addition or subtraction. Here we have a man who is constantly quoted as an authority on terms and language in the English language as it appears in our Bible. The emphasized portion in the above quote shows the Mr. Webster corrected the King James.
2. His definitions were flavored with his own beliefs. The definition given was an example of that. He thought religion was the final guide when we believe it is God’s Holy Word, our King James Bible. I can not find anywhere in my research which shows his denominational slant. I can make educated guesses based on the period of time he lived and where he lived and what the prevailing denomination was. But that would be implying facts I don't have.


I would like to hear some thoughts on the first point, his correction of the King James Bible. This is not an attack on Mr. Webster, it is a discussion of his views.

greenbear 07-13-2009 11:21 AM

Hi Ripdood,

I'm glad you started this thread and understand why you started it.

I think you expressed yourself quite well and I appreciate the information you posted about Webster, as well as your comments. I had never heard of the Webster's 1828 Dictionary before I joined this board. I noticed that people like Brandon (Swordsearcher software), Will, George and Matthew Verschuur (Bibleprotector) all prefer to use it over other dictionaries, as you do, and some of the reasons for their preference, so I started using it myself.

I couldn't agree more on your and George's point that we shouldn't use a dictionary to define how words like "shepherd" are used in the Bible. Looking up what "shepherd" means is fine but if we want to come to an understanding of what God means when He uses it we should find every instance of it's use in the scriptures and find the context of each passage.

A pastor follows God and only speaks what is right before God; he doesn't follow a board or teach the private interpretations of his denomination. That is a principle of God in any dispensation.

Jeremiah 17:16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.

If a man makes the comment that a pastor's role is to teach people what to believe and how to live without at least adding "according to scripture" or "from the Bible" it sends up a red flag for me, especially when he fails to qualify his statement after several people state their concerns with it. It makes me wonder if that person seeks to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Word of God over Christian's minds and lives.

Thanks again for making your point in this thread that our final authority is the Holy Scriptures rather than another man's understanding of them .

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

George 07-13-2009 11:53 AM

Re: " Webster's Dictionary 1828"
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripdood (Post 23860)
Let me start off by stating I am not a literate man, when it comes to writing posts. I express my thoughts much better in person than I do in my writing.

I am not a divisive person. I don’t look to cause fights or people to lose their cool. I don’t make it my practice to attack a person, though I will express disagreement with their concepts.

My original post had two points I was trying to make.

1. Mr. Webster’s views on the King James Bible. He felt it necessary to correct it and put out his own version which the following quote from my original posting shows.



2. His definitions were flavored with his own beliefs. The definition given was an example of that. He thought religion was the final guide when we believe it is God’s Holy Word, our King James Bible. I can not find anywhere in my research which shows his denominational slant. I can make educated guesses based on the period of time he lived and where he lived and what the prevailing denomination was. But that would be implying facts I don't have.


I would like to hear some thoughts on the first point, his correction of the King James Bible. This is not an attack on Mr. Webster, it is a discussion of his views.


Aloha brother,

Your comments are most welcome and your insight on Noah Webster is "right on"! I am aware that Webster made his own translation of the Bible (that never went anywhere), and that is one of the main reasons I caution people when using his 1828 Dictionary. {Having said that - Webster's 1828 Dictionary is far superior to any modern dictionary when it comes to defining Bible words. It just shouldn't be used as a "FINAL AUTHORITY" when it comes to Bible words of "spiritual importance".}

Any word in the Bible that has any spiritual significance at all should be determined by a comparison of Scripture with Scripture.Webster is OK on lots of words that do not require spiritual discernment, but since he was "off" on some of his doctrine - his personal beliefs influenced his "definition" of some words.

I don't know if you have Swordsearcher (Electronic Bible Concordance), if you do, there is a searchable copy of Webster's 1828 Dictionary within the Software; and it is a great resource for Bible study {even for those of us that are not Literate. :)}

greenbear 07-13-2009 06:02 PM

Quote:

A pastor follows God and only speaks what is right before God; he doesn't follow a board or teach the private interpretations of his denomination. That is a principle of God in any dispensation.

Jeremiah 17:16 As for me, I have not hastened from being a pastor to follow thee: neither have I desired the woeful day; thou knowest: that which came out of my lips was right before thee.

If a man makes the comment that a pastor's role is to teach people what to believe and how to live without at least adding "according to scripture" or "from the Bible" it sends up a red flag for me, especially when he fails to qualify his statement after several people state their concerns with it. It makes me wonder if that person seeks to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Word of God over Christian's minds and lives.
Ripdood, sorry that my final rant about the above topic found it's way into my reply to you. Not sure how that happened... I guess I was still worked up.

Amanda S. 07-28-2009 09:36 AM

Quote:

Bro Schwenke said: I appeal to the dictionary only to clarify what the Bible already says. We must have a standard of defining words, so that we don't talk past each other. So, if I cannot give a precise definition to a word, I look it up in the dictionary, test the dictionary with the Scripture to see if the Scripture agrees with how the word is defined, and when it agrees, I use it to bring clarification to the argument, and to keep the argument focused on the correct thing.


So the final authority for doctrine, etc is the AV. The Dictionary brings clarification to the words we use in our dialogues so that we can understand what we are saying to each other. It also helps us understand how the Bible uses words, particularly those that have multiple meanings, and particularly those that are being misused in modern language.
Quote:

Bro. George said:
{Having said that - Webster's 1828 Dictionary is far superior to any modern dictionary when it comes to defining Bible words. It just shouldn't be used as a "FINAL AUTHORITY" when it comes to Bible words of "spiritual importance".}

Any word in the Bible that has any spiritual significance at all should be determined by a comparison of Scripture with Scripture.Webster is OK on lots of words that do not require spiritual discernment, but since he was "off" on some of his doctrine - his personal beliefs influenced his "definition" of some words.

I don't know if you have Swordsearcher (Electronic Bible Concordance), if you do, there is a searchable copy of Webster's 1828 Dictionary within the Software; and it is a great resource for Bible study {even for those of us that are not Literate. }
It looks all the world to me like both George and Schwenke agree? Where is the disagreement here?

George 07-28-2009 01:52 PM

Re: "Webster's Dictionary 1828"
 
Amanda S Post #15:
Quote:

Bro Schwenke said: {Post #2}
Quote:

"I appeal to the dictionary only to clarify what the Bible already says. We must have a standard of defining words, so that we don't talk past each other. So, if I cannot give a precise definition to a word, I look it up in the dictionary, test the dictionary with the Scripture to see if the Scripture agrees with how the word is defined, and when it agrees, I use it to bring clarification to the argument, and to keep the argument focused on the correct thing.

So the final authority for doctrine, etc is the AV. The Dictionary brings clarification to the words we use in our dialogues so that we can understand what we are saying to each other. It also helps us understand how the Bible uses words, particularly those that have multiple meanings, and particularly those that are being misused in modern language."
Bro. George said: {Post #13}
Quote:

{Having said that - Webster's 1828 Dictionary is far superior to any modern dictionary when it comes to defining Bible words. It just shouldn't be used as a "FINAL AUTHORITY" when it comes to Bible words of "spiritual importance".}

Any word in the Bible that has any spiritual significance at all should be determined by a comparison of Scripture with Scripture.Webster is OK on lots of words that do not require spiritual discernment, but since he was "off" on some of his doctrine - his personal beliefs influenced his "definition" of some words.

I don't know if you have Swordsearcher (Electronic Bible Concordance), if you do, there is a searchable copy of Webster's 1828 Dictionary within the Software; and it is a great resource for Bible study {even for those of us that are not Literate. }
It looks all the world to me like both George and Schwenke agree? Where is the disagreement here?
Re: "Bible Studies" > Webster's Dictionary 1828 > Post #13

George actually said: {Post #13}
Quote:

Aloha brother,

”Your comments are most welcome and your insight on Noah Webster is "right on"! I am aware that Webster made his own translation of the Bible (that never went anywhere), and that is one of the main reasons I caution people when using his 1828 Dictionary. {Having said that - Webster's 1828 Dictionary is far superior to any modern dictionary when it comes to defining Bible words. It just shouldn't be used as a "FINAL AUTHORITY" when it comes to Bible words of "spiritual importance".}

Any word in the Bible that has any spiritual significance at all should be determined by a comparison of Scripture with Scripture.Webster is OK on lots of words that do not require spiritual discernment, but since he was "off" on some of his doctrine - his personal beliefs influenced his "definition" of some words.

I don't know if you have Swordsearcher (Electronic Bible Concordance), if you do, there is a searchable copy of Webster's 1828 Dictionary within the Software; and it is a great resource for Bible study {even for those of us that are not Literate.}”

Amanda. When you "quoted me" you LEFT OUT (In "blue" above) part of my "quote" - a very important part where I CAUTIONED brother Ripdood about using Webster's 1828 Dictionary.

I am answering you inquiry because I may have left the wrong impression with my the last paragraph in my Post #13. When I was speaking of "a great resource for Bible study" I was referring to Swordsearcher Bible Software - NOT Webster's 1828 Dictionary. But after reading the paragraph over, I can see where I was not as clear as I should have been in expressing what I meant.

It would have been much more informative had you also included my Post #7 in regards to this Thread, since that Post "qualified" (more clearly) what I believe in regards to Webster's 1828 Dictionary.

I will cite that Post here and now (just in case you missed it):

Re: "Bible Studies" > Webster's Dictionary 1828 > Post #7

George said:
Quote:

Aloha brother Gary,

I'm with you 100% per cent of the way brother! The Bible is it's own "BEST DICTIONARY"! And when it comes to spiritual issues NEVER trust Webster, or Strong, or some Lexicon. The following are some comments (on this Forum) that I have made before on this subject:

Quote:

"For most "Old English" words I have used Webster's 1828 Dictionary - However, when it comes to any words that may have significant spiritual meaning I always use the Bible only (words like: soul, spirit, heart, mind, conscience, etc.). When it comes to spiritual meanings of some words Noah Webster may not have understood their meaning - because God may not have shown him."

"I did not obtain these definitions from Webster's Dictionary or Strong's Concordance or any book, article, etc. written by another man. When it comes to spiritual matters Webster & Strong are very little help, since only God can give us the discernment, understanding, and wisdom to understand His words. These definitions are the result of searching the Scriptures for over a year in pursuit of a study that I have done on the Biblical heart of man:"

"Webster's 1828 English Dictionary may be of some "help" when looking up a so-called "archaic" English word; but I have made it a practice, for over 40 years now, that whenever a word in the Bible has any "spiritual significance" at all, to never trust Webster or the Lexicons - instead I have relied on the Holy Spirit to reveal to me what God has to say about a particular subject or issue by searching the scriptures and comparing scripture with scripture.
"

"I have been studying the King James Bible for 50 years now (40 of those years intensively). From 1968 up to 1996 I used either Young's Concordance or Strong's Concordance to look up English words in the Bible and to compare scripture with scripture (NEVER as a Lexicon i.e. to get the "meanings" of words). I can testify to you here and now that using Swordsearcher hasn't made my study just 10 times faster and more convenient - it has made my Bible study any wheres from 10 to 100 times faster and more convenient!"

"The word “spirit” (pertaining only to mankind – and excluding God’s Spirit or evil spirits, etc.) is mentioned approximately 144 times in 134 Verses in the Holy Bible. To accurately describe something that we cannot see, but accept by faith in the Scriptures, is extremely difficult. Webster’s Dictionary of 1828 is not that much help here either, because of the difficulty distinguishing between the soul and spirit (Check out Webster's "definition")."

When it comes to any word in the Bible which has any spiritual significance I do NOT recommend going to Webster's Dictionary. Search out the words (Scripture with Scripture) to find God's definition. When you have determined in your heart, mind, spirit and soul what the meaning is, you might check out Webster's as a comparison - but I recommend that you do not go to Webster's first - it might "influence" your search (without even knowing it.)

For your information, when it comes to the Biblical words soul, spirit, heart, mind, and conscience, Webster's will not be much help. Looking up the words and comparing Scripture with Scripture will give you a much more "accurate" definition than Webster.

A short "search" on the AV1611 Bible Forums demonstrates that I have made the following quotes (and probably more) over the past year and a half in regards to Webster's 1828 Dictionary:

"I caution people when using his 1828 Dictionary"; "And when it comes to spiritual issues NEVER trust Webster, or Strong, or some Lexicon."; "When it comes to spiritual matters Webster & Strong are very little help,"; "I have made it a practice, for over 40 years now, that whenever a word in the Bible has any "spiritual significance" at all, to never trust Webster or the Lexicons "; "Webster’s Dictionary of 1828 is not that much help here either"; "When it comes to any word in the Bible which has any spiritual significance I do NOT recommend going to Webster's Dictionary. "; "I recommend that you do not go to Webster's first - it might "influence" your search (without even knowing it.)"; "For your information, when it comes to the Biblical words soul, spirit, heart, mind, and conscience, Webster's will not be much help."

You stated: "It looks all the world to me like both George and Schwenke agree? Where is the disagreement here?"

I have gone out of my way to CAUTION and WARN the brethren about NOT DEPENDING on Webster's 1828 Dictionary (or the Concordances and Lexicons) when searching for the "meaning" of the words of Scripture; perhaps you can show me in Schwenke's statements where he has WARNED people NOT TO DEPEND on the Dictionary, or Concordances, or Lexicons for the "meaning" of God's words
- I don't see any words of CAUTION in his statement.

Schwenke refers to Webster's 1828 as a "STANDARD" -
Webster's 1828 is NOT "The STANDARD" - when it comes to Bible words of any "spiritual significance"; if it is to be considered "The STANDARD", then it becomes our "FINAL AUTHORITY" in all matters dealing with the "meanings" of all Bible words. Schwenkie did NOT make that DISTINCTION clear when he referred to Webster's as being the "STANDARD".

I do not intend to drag this discussion out. The main reason I have responded to your inquiry is the fact that I was not as clear and precise as I would have liked to have been in the last paragraph in my Post #13 (this Thread). I hope that I cleared up any "misunderstanding" I may have given you (or any one else) about what I believe to be "
a great resource for Bible study". I was speaking in regards to "Swordsearcher Bible Software" - NOT Webster's 1828 Dictionary.

Amanda S. 07-28-2009 03:42 PM

Thank you :) I see where you are coming from. Honestly I've never heard Webster spoken negatively of that I remember.....? My husband most often refers to the Oxford but as said only when it lines up with Scripture.

I also did not realize a search could be done. Great resource!

greenbear 07-28-2009 05:13 PM

SwordSearcher is the first Bible software I've used and it is fantastic. It takes a fraction of the time it takes using books to find or compare passages or do word or topical studies, and you can copy a page with extensive scripture references from a book or article on your computer onto the scan text function and all the references are clickable or you can just move your cursor onto the references and read a portion of the Bible passage. It has maps, commentaries, bible dictionaries, books on dispenationalism, and many other features. Probably the best money I've ever spent. It also has the "infamous" Webster's 1928 Dictionary. :rolleyes: This is not a paid advertisement.

George 07-28-2009 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanda S. (Post 24820)
"Thank you :) I see where you are coming from. Honestly I've never heard Webster spoken negatively of that I remember.....? My husband most often refers to the Oxford but as said only when it lines up with Scripture.

I also did not realize a search could be done. Great resource
!"


Amanda S,

In order to demonstrate that I am not just some negative old curmudgeon, who "thinks" he "knows it all", or is against "book learnin" - the following are some comparison's between Webster's 1828 Dictionary and the Scriptural "definitions" I gleaned from the Holy Bible in a study that I did on the Biblical "HEART" that took me more than a year to complete.

The following comparisons are from the "addendum's" to the study, and are a small part of the complete 250 page study:

A COMPARISON OF THE DEFINITIONS OF:
(HEART – CONSCIENCE – MIND – SPIRIT - SOUL)

Before we begin the study on the heart, a review of the definitions of the words heart, mind, conscience, spirit, and soul is necessary. The word body has been omitted for purposes of brevity and also because the meaning of the word should be understood by most people.

ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES THE SIX ATTRIBUTES OF MAN ARE:

Our Substance: Man is made up of three parts - [Body-Soul-Spirit]
(Genesis 2:7; 1 Thessalonians 5:23)

Our Faculties:
Man also possesses three faculties – [Heart-Mind-Conscience]
(1 Chronicles 28:9; Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:30; Luke 10:27; Titus 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:5;
Hebrews 10:22)

Although it can be demonstrated from the Holy Scriptures that a single individual attribute of man may be similar in function and operation to another separate but individual attribute, and that some of the individual attributes of man may share some of the same characteristics as others. A thorough study of all the Bible verses pertaining to these words reveals that each of the substances that make up an individual [Body-Soul-Spirit] and each individual’s faculties [Heart-Mind-Conscience] are quite different from each other, and that each of these substances and faculties serve clearly distinct and separate purposes. According to the Bible these six (6) individual words are not synonymous!

The following comparison of the definitions of the words heart, mind, conscience, spirit, and soul from Webster’s 1828 Dictionary and the Biblical definitions [gleaned from the Bible] of these same words demonstrates just how difficult it is to define words that are spiritual in nature and which deal with man’s substances and faculties that, with the exception of the body, cannot be seen.

How ever difficult it may be to understand the meanings of these words and others in the Bible, we are commanded to study: [“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2Timothy 2:15] and the manner [method] in which are to study is outlined in the Scriptures.
[“For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:” Isaiah 28:10 & Isaiah 28:13].

In the study of the heart in God’s word [The Bible=Scriptures=God’s words], we must first determine just exactly what we are studying in order to understand who, why, when or wherefore. God has not left us at the mercy of the “experts” or the “scholars” in this matter – He has given His people a witness {The Holy Spirit} that we might know the truth: [John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.] The following definitions of the words heart, mind, conscience, spirit, and soul are supplied for your meditation & study.

HEART OF THE MATTER - DEFINITIONS
Webster’s 1828 and The Bible

(Numbers In Bold & Underlined Apply and are Appropriate)

WEBSTER’S 1828 DICTIONARY DEFINITION

HEART, n. L. cor, cordis, and allied to Eng.core, or named from motion, pulsation.

1.A muscular viscus, which is the primary organ of the blood's motion in an animal body, situated in the thorax. From this organ all the arteries arise, and in it all the veins terminate. By its alternate dilatation and contraction, the blood is received from the veins, and returned through the arteries, by which means the circulation is carried on and life preserved.

2. The inner part of any thing; the middle part or interior; as the heart of a country, kingdom or empire; the heart of a town; the heart of a tree.

3. The chief part; the vital part; the vigorous or efficacious part.

4. The seat of the affections and passions, as of love, joy, grief, enmity, courage, pleasure &c.

The heart is deceitful above all things. Every imagination of the thoughts of the heart is evil continually. We read of an honest and good heart, and an evil heart of unbelief, a willing heart, a heavy heart, sorrow of heart, a hard heart, a proud heart, a pure heart. The heart faints in adversity, or under discouragement, that is, courage fails; the heart is deceived, enlarged, reproved, lifted up, fixed, established, moved, &c.

5. By a metonymy, heart is used for an affection or passion, and particularly for love.

The king's heart was towards Absalom. 2 Samuel 14.

6. The seat of the understanding; as an understanding heart. We read of men wise in heart, and slow of heart.

7. The seat of the will; hence, secret purposes, intentions or designs. There are many devices in a man's heart. The heart of kings is unsearchable. The Lord tries and searches the heart. David had it in his heart to build a house of rest for the ark.

Sometimes heart is used for the will, or determined purpose.

The heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Ecclesiastes 8.

8.Person; character; used with respect to courage or kindess.

Cheerly, my hearts.

9.Courage; spirit; as, to take heart; to give heart; to recover heart.

10.Secret thoughts; recesses of the mind.

Michal saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart. 2 Samuel 6.

11.Disposition of mind.

He had a heart to do well.

12. Secret meaning; real intention.

And then show you the heart of my message.

13.Conscience, or sense of good or ill.

Every man's heart and conscience--doth either like or disallow it.

14. Strength; power of producing; vigor; fertility. Keep the land in heart.

That the spent earth may gather heart again.

15. The utmost degree.

This gay charm--hath beguiled me

To the very heart of loss.

To get or learn by heart, to commit to memory; to learn so perfectly as to be able to repeat without a copy.

To take to heart, to be much affected; also, to be zealous, ardent or solicitous about a thing; to have concern.

To lay to heart, is used nearly in the sense of the foregoing.

To set the heart on, to fix the desires on; to be very desirous of obtaining or keeping; to be very fond of.

To set the heart at rest, to make one's self quiet; to be tranquil or easy in mind.

To find in the heart, to be willing or disposed.

I find it in my heart to ask your pardon.

For my heart, for tenderness or affection.

I could not for my heart refuse his request.

Or, this phrase may signify, for my life; if my life was at stake.

I could not get him for my heart to do it.

To speak to one's heart, in Scripture, to speak kindly to; to comfort; to encourage.

To have in the heart, to purpose; to have design or intention.

A hard heart, cruelty; want of sensibility.

Quote:

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE HEART {Our “Motivator”}

The heart is that faculty within a man or woman which is the center or seat of our
1 thoughts,2 meditations, 3 considerations, 4 perceptions, 5 concepts, 6 reasoning,
7
understanding, 8 beliefs, 9 imaginations
, 10 fears, 11 doubts, 12 counsels, 13 intents, 14 desires (affections - emotions), and 15 pride. The heart is where the 16 will resides and operates.

(1.Job 17:11; 2.Psalms 19:14; 3. Deuteronomy 8:5; 4.Deuteronomy 29:4; 5.Acts 5:4; 6.Mark 2:8; 7.Proverbs 8:5; 8.Romans 10:9-10; 9.Genesis 6:5;10. Isaiah 35:4, Luke 21:26; 11. Mark 11:23; 12.Jeremiah 7:24;13.Hebrews 4:12; 14.Psalms 37:4, Colossians 3:2; 15. 2 Chronicles 32:26;16. Psalms 101:2, Psalms 119:69, Psalms 119:145, Isaiah 32:6, 1 Corinthians 7:37, Ephesians 6:6.)
WEBSTER’S 1828 DICTIONARY DEFINITION

MIND, n. L. reminiscor; L. mens; Gr. memory, mention, to remember, mind, ardor of mind, vehemence; anger. Mind signifies properly intention, a reaching or inclining forward to an object, from the primary sense of extending, stretching or inclining, or advancing eagerly, pushing or setting forward, whence the Greek sense of the word, in analogy with the Teutonic mod, moed, muth, mind, courage, spirit, mettle. So L. animus, animosus.

1. Intention; purpose; design.
The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination; how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind. Proverbs 21.

2. Inclination; will; desire; a sense much used, but expressing less than settled purpose; as in the common phrases, "I wish to know your mind;" "let me know your mind;" "he had a mind to go;" "he has a partner to his mind."

3. Opinion; as, to express one's mind. We are of one mind.

4. Memory; remembrance; as, to put one in mind; to call to mind; the fact is out of my mind; time out of mind. From the operations of the intellect in man,this word came to signify.

5. The intellectual or intelligent power in man; the understanding; the power that conceives, judges or reasons.

I fear I am not in my perfect mind.

So we speak of a sound mind, a disordered mind, a weak mind, a strong mind, with reference to the active powers of the understanding; and in a passive sense, it denotes capacity, as when we say, the mind cannot comprehend a subject.

6. The heart or seat of affection.

Which were a grief of mind to Isaac and Rebekah. Genesis 26.

7. The will and affection; as readiness of mind. Acts 17.

8. The implanted principle of grace. Romans 7.

MIND, v.t. To attend to; to fix the thoughts on; to regard with attention.

Cease to request me; let us mind our way.

Mind not high things. Romans 12.

1. To attend to or regard with submission; to obey. His father told him to desist, but he would not mind him.

2. To put in mind; to remind.

3. To intend; to mean.

MIND, v.i. To be inclined or disposed to incline.

When one of them mindeth to go into rebellion.

Quote:

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE MIND {Our “Facilitator”}

The mind is that faculty within a man or woman wherein resides our intellect or intelligence.
In the Bible the mind is separate and distinct from the heart in purpose, though sometimes similar in function and operation.

WEBSTER’S 1828 DICTIONARY DEFINITION


CONSCIENCE, n. L., to know, to be privy to.

1. Internal or self-knowledge, or judgment of right and wrong; or the faculty, power or principle within us, which decides on the lawfulness or unlawfulness of our own actions and affections, and instantly approves or condemns them. Conscience is called by some writers the moral sense, and considered as an original faculty of our nature. Others question the propriety of considering conscience as a distinct faculty or principle. They consider it rather as the general principle of moral approbation or disapprobation, applied to ones own conduct and affections; alledging that our notions of right and wrong are not to be deduced from a single principle or faculty, but from various powers of the understanding and will.

Being convicted by their own conscience, they went out one by one. John 8.

The conscience manifests itself in the feeling of obligation we experience, which precedes, attends and follows our actions.

Conscience is first occupied in ascertaining our duty, before we proceed to action; then in judging of our actions when performed.

2. The estimate or determination of conscience; justice; honesty.

What you require cannot, in conscience, be deferred.

3. Real sentiment; private thought; truth; as, do you in conscience believe the story?

4. Consciousness; knowledge of our own actions or thought.

The sweetest cordial we receive at last, is conscience of our virtuous actions past.

This primary sense of the word is nearly, perhaps wholly obsolete.

5. Knowledge of the actions of others.

6. In ludicrous language, reason or reasonableness.

Half a dozen fools are, in all conscience, as many as you should require.

To make conscience or a matter of conscience, is to act according to the dictates of conscience, or to scruple to act contrary to its dictates.

Court of conscience, a court established for the recovery of small debts in London and other trading cities and districts.

Quote:

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE CONSCIENCE {Our “Regulator”}

The conscience is that faculty within a man or woman wherein resides the awareness of right and wrong (good and evil), and which influences the heart and mind as to the lawfulness or unlawfulness of our own affections & actions. According to the Scriptures the human heart and conscience are separate and distinct from each other in purpose and in operation.
WEBSTER’S 1828 DICTIONARY DEFINITION

SPIR'IT, n. L. spiritus, from spiro, to breathe, to blow. The primary sense is to rush or drive.

1. Primarily, wind; air in motion; hence, breath. All bodies have spirits and pneumatical parts within them. This sense is now unusual.

2. Animal excitement, or the effect of it; life; ardor; fire; courage; elevation or vehemence of mind. The troops attacked the enemy with great spirit. The young man has the spirit of youth. He speaks or act with spirit. Spirits, in the plural, is used in nearly a like sense. The troops began to recover their spirits.

3. Vigor of intellect; genius. His wit, his beauty and his spirit. The noblest spirit or genius cannot deserve enough of mankind to pretend to the esteem of heroic virtue.

4. Temper; disposition of mind, habitual or temporary; as a man of a generous spirit, or of a revengeful spirit; the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit. Let us go to the house of God in the spirit of prayer.

5. The soul of man; the intelligent, immaterial and immortal part of human beings. See Soul. the spirit shall return to God that gave it. Ecclesiastes 12.

6. An immaterial intelligent substance. Spirit is a substance in which thinking, knowing, doubting, and a power of moving do subsist. Hence,

7. An immaterial intelligent being. By which he went and preached to the spirit in prison. I Peter 3. God is a spirit. John 4.

8. Turn of mind; temper; occasions; state of the mind. A perfect judge will read each work of wit, with the same spirit that its author writ.

9. Powers of mind distinct from the body. In spirit perhaps he also saw Rich Mexico, the seat of Montezume.

10. Sentiment; perception. You spirit is too true, your fears too certain.

11. Eager desire; disposition of mind excited and directed to a particular object. God has made a spirit of building succeed a spirit of pulling down.

12. A person of activity; a man of life, vigor or enterprise. The watery kingdom is no bar to stop the foreign spirits, but they come.

13. Persons distinguished by qualities of the mind. Such spirits as he desired to please, such would I choose for my judges.

14. Excitement of mind; animation; cheerfulness; usually in the plural. We found our friend in very good spirits. He has a great flow of spirits. -To sing thy praise, would heaven my breath prolong, Infusing spirits worthy such a song.

15. Life or strength of resemblance; essential qualities; as, to set off the face in its true spirit. The copy has not the spirit of the original.

16. Something eminently pure and refined. Nor doth the eye itself, that most pure spirit of sense, behold itself.

17. That which hath power or energy; the quality of any substance which manifest life, activity, or the power of strongly affecting other bodies; as the spirit of wine or of any liquor.

18. A strong, pungent or stimulation liquor, usually obtained by distillation, as rum, brandy, gin, whiskey. In America, spirit, used without other words explanatory of its meaning, signifies the liquor distilled from cane-juice, or rum. We say, new spirit, or old spirit, Jamaica spirit, &c.

19. An apparition; a ghost.

20. The renewed nature of man. Matthew 26. Galatians 5.

21. The influences of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 22.

Quote:

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE SPIRIT {Our “Life”}

The spirit (pertaining only to mankind) is that substance [which is given by God] within a man or woman wherein our very life resides i.e. the spirit [that resides within every man] is life itself. In the Bible the spirit is separate and distinct from the heart and the soul in purpose, though it may have some similar characteristics.
WEBSTER’S 1828 DICTIONARY DEFINITION

SOUL, n.

1. The spiritual, rational and immortal substance in man, which distinguishes him from brutes; that part of man which enables him to think and reason, and which renders him a subject of moral government. The immortality of the soul is a fundamental article of the Christian system. Such is the nature of the human soul that it must have a God, an object of supreme affection.

2. The understanding; the intellectual principle. The eyes of our soul then only begin to see, when our bodily eye are closing.

3. Vital principle. Thou son, of this great world both eye and soul.

4. Spirit; essence; chief part; as charity, the soul of all the virtues. Emotion is the soul of eloquence.

5. Life; animation principle or part; as, an able commander is the soul of an army.

6. Internal power. There is some soul of goodness in things evil.

7. A human being; a person. There was no a soul present. In Paris there are more than seven hundred thousand souls. London, Westminster, Southwark and the suburbs, are said to contain twelve hundred thousand souls.

8. Animal life. To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. Psalms 33:19

9. Active power. And heaven would fly before the driving soul.

10. Spirit; courage; fire; grandeur of mind. That he wants caution he must needs confess, but not a soul to give our arms success.

11. Generosity; nobleness of mind; a colloquial use.

12. An intelligent being. Every soul in heaven shall bend the knee.

13. Heart; affection. The soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David. I Samuel 18.

14. In Scripture, appetite; as the full soul; the hungry soul. Proverbs 27. Job 33.

15. A familiar compellation of a person, but often expressing some qualities of the mind; as alas, poor soul; he was a good soul.

Quote:

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE SOUL {Our “Essence”}

According to the Scriptures the soul is that substance within a man or a woman which is the very essence of their being. The soul within a man or woman is that substance that distinguishes mankind from all of the other living creatures in God’s creation. The soul is that substance which separates an individual from every other individual and makes them unique.
THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF MAN

MAN IS A SPIRITUAL BEING IN A PHYSICAL BODY

{The Body = Our “Tabernacle”}

[2 Peter 1:13-14]

Quote:

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE HEART {Our Motivator}

The heart is that faculty within a man or woman which is the center or seat of our 1 thoughts, 2 meditations , 3 considerations, 4 perceptions, 5 concepts, 6 reasoning, 7 understanding, 8beliefs, 9 imaginations, 10 fears, 11 doubts, 12 counsels, 13 intents, 14desires (affections - emotions), and 15 pride . The heart is where the 16 will resides and operates.

(1.Job 17:11; 2.Psalms 19:14; 3. Deuteronomy 8:5; 4.Deuteronomy 29:4;5.Acts 5:4; 6.Mark 2:8; 7.Proverbs 8:5; 8.Romans 10:9-10; 9.Genesis 6:5;10. Isaiah 35:4, Luke 21:26; 11. Mark 11:23; 12.Jeremiah 7:24;13.Hebrews 4:12; 14.Psalms 37:4, Colossians 3:2; 15. 2 Chronicles 32:26;16. Psalms 101:2, Psalms 119:69, Psalms 119:145, Isaiah 32:6, 1 Corinthians 7:37, Ephesians 6:6.)

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE MIND {Our Facilitator}

According to the Scriptures the mind is that faculty within a man or woman wherein our intellect or intelligence resides.In the Bible the mind is separate and distinct from the heart in purpose, though similar in function and operation.

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE CONSCIENCE{Our Regulator}

According to the Scriptures the conscience is that faculty within a man or woman wherein resides the awareness of right and wrong(good and evil),and which influences the heart and mind as to the lawfulness or unlawfulness of our own affections & actions. According to the Scriptures the human heart and conscience are separate and distinct from each other in purpose and in operation.

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE SPIRIT {Our Life}

According to the Scriptures the spirit (pertaining only to mankind) is that substance [which is given by God] within a man or woman wherein our very life resides i.e. the spirit [that resides within every man] is life itself. In the Bible the spirit is separate and distinct from the heart and the soul in purpose, though it may have some similar characteristics.


THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF THE SOUL {Our Essence}

According to the Scriptures the soul is that substance within a man or a woman which is the very essence of their being. The soul within a man or woman is that substance that distinguishes mankind from all of the other living creatures in God’s creation. The soul is that substance which separates an individual from every other individual and makes them unique.
NOTICE: Five of the six attributes of man are spiritual – you can not see them; hear them; taste them; smell them; or touch them, and yet (according to the Scriptures) these attributes are as real as our physical bodies.

I supplied many Scriptures for the Biblical definitions
(like the heart) of the mind, conscience, spirit, and soul in the study. I do not have the "room" to list them all here.

Perhaps now you might understand when I say: "
When it comes to spiritual matters Webster & Strong are very little help, since only God can give us the discernment, understanding, and wisdom to understand His words."

And again, when I said: "
When it comes to any word in the Bible which has any spiritual significance I do NOT recommend going to Webster's Dictionary. Search out the words (Scripture with Scripture) to find God's definition. When you have determined in your heart, mind, spirit and soul what the meaning is, you might check out Webster's as a comparison - but I recommend that you do not go to Webster's first - it might "influence" your search (without even knowing it.)"

Amanda S. 07-30-2009 03:56 PM

Bro. George,

I am a simple gal :D and you lost me LoL

But I think I get the jist of what you are saying. I was trying to convey what you were saying to my husband (Bobby) and he agreed at least partially in what you are saying. Evidently he's been in this very same debate before.

Firstly, he recommends the Oxford over the Webster's. But that the Webster's is a good second.

Secondly, he totally agrees with looking in Scripture first agreeing with this point you made:

Quote:

but I recommend that you do not go to Webster's first - it might "influence" your search (without even knowing it.)
Actually he finished my sentence for me! :)

But, not everyone always has the time to look up every word, reference and meaning in the Bible so that is when he feels a quick look in the dictionary is a great help and it is a rare occasion that the two will disagree. If you always have the time the method you suggest is obviously best but not always practical.

Bro. Schwenke also spoke my husband's third point and that is:

Quote:

If we discuss "ordinances" and Chette thinks "ordinance" means one thing, and I think "ordinance" means something else, but we never agree on a definition of the word, the discussion becomes useless. The dictionary brings us to a point where we should be able to agree on how a word is being used, and then we might be able to get somewhere. Otherwise, we are right back in Judges where everyone does that which is right in his own eyes, because there is no common definition of the words we use.
Be blessed!

Jassy 07-30-2009 08:43 PM

Sis Amanda,

I am just SHOCKED!!!! When does a Christian "not have time" to go into the Word and find out what God said?! Since when should we take a dictionary as a FIRST or QUICKER method of gleaning wisdom? The answer is NEVER!!! We are told to compare Scripture with Scripture. I totally disagree with your idea - that one should run to the dictionary (be it Oxford or Webster's) for a QUICK reference!! :eek:

If your husband or pastor is doing that, uhhhhhhhhh - I would question whether they are giving a good example for you to follow.

I'm guessing, from what you've said, that your Oxford dictionary is much more dog-earred than your Bible? Forgive me, if I'm wrong. If not, then why put it as a first preference for a quick look-up of the meaning of a word? If it's in relation to the Bible - then let's go to the BIBLE and let that define it!! I don't even own a dictionary, and I'm glad for that. The Holy Spirit is what I depend on for understanding and opening wisdom to me from the Word of God. I don't think the Holy Spirit is going to work with me in opening wisdom, if the book that I open is an Oxford or Webster's dictionary! :tsk:

I LOVE getting into the Word of God - reading and studying. I will always put that FIRST. Nothing in life will get in the way of that. For that reason, I do sometimes take breaks from this forum for a few days, to intensify my studies of God's Word.

Definitely I agree with brother George, because a Christian most certainly shouldn't want to go to a dictionary and have their understanding clouded by a secular source, BEFORE going to the Bible.

Brother George's studies are right-on and they're very edifying. One has to get INTO the Word to understand them. That's what's good about them. It makes you open the Bible and read and study! His studies have been such a blessing for me and I hope and pray that he will continue to provide them for this forum. I, for one, appreciate them dearly. I know brother George puts a lot of time and study into them.

Jassy

Amanda S. 07-30-2009 09:31 PM

Amen...If one has hours to sit and look up every instance the word seek comes up in the Bible, compare Scripture with Scripture then like I said that is far better than any other method.

But as a homeschooling mother of 5, wife, SS teacher, Children's Church teacher, pianist, weekly bulletin and prayer list editor I don't always have the time to stop school for a day to run all the references. Forgive me...?

I am so glad you love getting into the Word of God...I do to, but sometimes we have to eat and I am sure people would be happy if we didn't go around naked because there are no clean clothes :D
Note what Bro. George said:
Quote:

the Scriptural "definitions" I gleaned from the Holy Bible in a study that I did on the Biblical "HEART" that took me more than a year to complete.
I am agreeing with George. He did a great study. Amen.

And no, honestly we don't even have an Oxford. My husband has to borrow one from his Dad when he knows he'll be needing it....?
Usually, if I need a definition quickly I ask my husband as he is very capable of defining a word having done what George is teaching for years. We do use the Webster's but it is for school and not Bible study.

If one is well read in their Bible and they DO have the need to turn to the dictionary then I would hope that the Spirit and discernment would alert them to a discrepancy...

You said:
Quote:

Forgive me, if I'm wrong. If not, then why put it as a first preference for a quick look-up of the meaning of a word? If it's in relation to the Bible - then let's go to the BIBLE and let that define it!
Why have a dictionary you prefer over another? Because as Bro. George said:

Quote:

And again, when I said: "When it comes to any word in the Bible which has any spiritual significance I do NOT recommend going to Webster's Dictionary. Search out the words (Scripture with Scripture) to find God's definition. When you have determined in your heart, mind, spirit and soul what the meaning is, you might check out Webster's as a comparison - but I recommend that you do not go to Webster's first - it might "influence" your search (without even knowing it.)"
It IS helpful, especially with words that are not of a spiritual significance. And then, when your word study is over, you can go check it out as a comparison.

So, for those words without spiritual significance and words you've defined in Scripture we prefer the Oxford over the Webster's.

Jassy 07-30-2009 10:21 PM

Sis Amanda,

I have to remember that I'm a bit unusual, I spend the majority of my day in the Word of God. I'm disabled and usually am at home, so I have time to put the Word of God always first. If I were to find that I can't put it first... then I would know that there was something that I needed to eliminate from my life to "make room."

I have noticed some friends who are soooooo harried and so frazzled that their nerves are stretched to the max. They're always driving their kids to various places for a diversity of sports, music lessons, school activities, and "Christian activities." I wonder how very edifying such activities are, if a person barely has time to devote maybe 15 minutes a day for Bible study?

Well, I should say NEVER MIND... because I don't have any children and have never had to devote my time to motherhood so, instead, I put that time into the Bible. I am certain that it is a wonderful thing to raise up a child to love the Word of God! There are so many beautiful scriptures about the blessings of children.

Psalm 127:4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

Proverbs 17:6 Children's children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.

Proverbs 31:28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.


There are times when I have wished that I had children. However, the Lord knows best and I trust in Him. I have to realize that I have the blessing of TIME and also the freedom to make decisions about how I will use that time. I know not everyone has the time that God has given to me. AND not always do I use it wisely!! Yes, I can admit that.

Jassy

Amanda S. 07-30-2009 10:43 PM

You make a great point...I am constantly struggling with balance and moderation. It seems as if I am a Mary, I am not a Martha...and if I am a Martha, I am a Mary. And sometimes I'm neither :(

I have really, really enjoyed the forum and have spent WAY too much time on here lately another sign of my lack of moderation :)

But I excuse it because it is our summer break and because it's the only thing I do for enjoyment...And I am addicted to reading and studying what my Bible has to say and talking about it! :)

Quote:

I have noticed some friends who are soooooo harried and so frazzled that their nerves are stretched to the max. They're always driving their kids to various places for a diversity of sports, music lessons, school activities, and "Christian activities." I wonder how very edifying such activities are, if a person barely has time to devote maybe 15 minutes a day for Bible study?
I agree so much with this statement. Thankfully my husband and I share views on this and have pulled out to a large degree the extra curricular activities that most homeschoolers are involved in. Like you said, it takes away from the important things such as Bible reading, studying and devotions, family time, and church attendance.

I have a blog that I've named Better Is Little - Finding the Joy in Simply Living based on the verse
Pr 15:16 Better is little with the fear of the LORD than great treasure and trouble therewith.

It is a goal of ours to live simply in all areas of our life...our activities, our food, our possessions etc. We're not there yet, but always striving for the mark. But even then, with our responsibilities and of our own doing we can complicate things and before we know it we're cumbered about with many things.

PTL for the blessings and special gifts He gives to each of His children. :)

PaulB 07-31-2009 10:42 AM

Untitled
 
Hello again Amanda!

I honestly don’t know why you are being singled out for special attention regarding your posts, as all you are guilty of in my eyes is eagerly seeking to interact on subjects that you wish to reason through with others.

And concerning some of the stick you have been getting I would ask - will some of you guys encourage her rather than tear her to pieces because she has different ideas than those who oppose her!

Yes people like me and Amanda are new here but what kind of a forum would it be if only the original members called the shots? And yes, when we enter a church or a home for the first time we respect those who have been there longer than ourselves, but new members are just as much a member as any other. When we are talking about common courtesy, it is also quite a loving thing to do to encourage new members who are hungry for truth and interaction rather than surrounding them and laying the law down and forcing people down the ladder.

Cut her some slack will you!

God bless

PaulB

Diligent 07-31-2009 02:40 PM

Paul and Amanda: what you both need to keep in mind is that veteran members of the forum have their own opinions, just like you do, and they are just as free to express them as you are, even if that opinion is against a new member and about their frequency of posting.

The only person here who speaks for "the forum" on policy matters is the one who has "Forum Administrator" under his name. Everyone else is just stating their opinion.

Just in case it is not clear: this forum has no rule about frequency of posting. There will never be one, ever. I would take the forum down before I started imposing such things -- this is an internet forum. It's the way forums are.

PaulB 07-31-2009 03:09 PM

I have no problem with that Brandon - but why again are we being addressed as examples of wrong doing when it is people like me and Amanda who are being tarnished with all kinds of titles?

We are simply joining in the discussions like everyone else!

God bless

PaulB

Amanda S. 07-31-2009 03:27 PM

What I heard.... :)
 
Bro. Brandon,

This is what I heard when you said what you said above:

Quote:

Bro. George and Sis. Jennifer: what you both need to keep in mind is that new members of the forum have their own opinions, just like you do, and they are just as free to express them as you are, even if that opinion is against a veteran member and about their lack of posting.

The only person here who speaks for "the forum" on policy matters is the one who has "Forum Administrator" under his name. Everyone else is just stating their opinion.
:D Have you ever heard that women hear things differently when it filters through to their brain? LoL

I'm just joking around :) :behindsofa:


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