Christians going to war?
 

Can it be right for Christians to ever go to war? If so, under what circumstances? If not, why not? What does the Bible, which is superior to human reasoning, say on this matter?

Joel 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matthew 5:38

Notice that Jesus anticipates the one who would ask "What do you mean 'Resist not evil?' " by immediately offering the answer " whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also"

This doesn't leave any room for retaliation. Some might argue that this is for individuals and not nations. However, nations are made up of individuals.

Furthermore:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven"
Matthew 5:43-45a

I want to suggest hat it is VERY DIFFICULT to "love your neighbor" when you have an M16 pointed at their head with an intent to kill them.
Was this Jesus' way...obviously not "To me belongeth vengeance and recompense..." Deuteronomy 32:35a

P.S. When Jesus states "Ye have heard it said..." who had they heard "it" from? From God Himself! So Jesus is basically saying that that was the way things were in the beginning but now things have changed (Old Covenant/New Covenant).
Paul expounds on this in 1 Corinthians 12:31-13:13. He tells us to "...covet earnestly the best gifts..." and then says "...and yet I shew you a more excellent way."
And what is this "more excellent way".

Love.

And he takes 13 verses to illustrate the more excellent way to us.

Would not the Lord want us to "love our enemies" I too am in question considering the weapons of our warfare are not carnal.

Sure they are, but individuals and nations are different entities in Scripture.

It's clear that Matthew 5 is talking about personal revenge, because Christ did not come to deny the law (eye for an eye). Interpreting this passage as applying to nations would make Christ out to be denying the law. Therefor, we must understand that lawful retribution (justice) is a function of the government, not a personal one.

1 Peter 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

Clearly, Christ was not a pacifist nor does he demand his followers be pacifists, since he told them to be armed in Luke 22:36 for travel on perilous roads.

Anyway, this is not the same topic as the original post. The question was about war, not "turning the other cheek." God very clearly is a "man of war" (Exodus 15:3) and war is a function of nations (Joel 3:9). There is nothing anywhere in the Bible that tells Christians that they can not be part of their nation's military forces, but I would suggest that any Christian considering military service should be sure that God is calling him to be used as a man of war and to kill other men. God has clearly called many men to that purpose, but let that calling be sure.

It has nothing to do with governments. Our personal warfare is spiritual, but to apply that to government is confusion. We are not called to govern nations, much less govern nations according to spiritual promises.

No, that is wrong. Christ said "it is written" when he is speaking from Scripture. "Ye have heard that it was said" is a reference to Jewish interpretation of the law, not the law itself. Take for example a few verses down:

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

"Hate thine enemy" was tradition, not from God. These are both examples of Christ correcting error; error that was from traditions of men. Just like men were in error teaching it was proper to "hate thine enemy," they were in error applying "eye for an eye" to personal vengeance.

With all due respect when Jesus said ,"if my kingdom was of this world then would my servants fight.............we need to understand we are called to be armed, this is of a truth, to put on the whole armor of God, Yes those ones who are of this world will fight for what they determine to be "freedom/peace" yet we as believes understand there is no peace saith the Lord unto the wicked, if we live by this sword we will die by it, if we live by the sword of the Spirit as Jesus said we will have life. "the Words I speak are spirit and they are life. Jn 6:63. This is where we find to die is gain...........if you seek to save your life you shall loose it but if you loose your life for my sake and the Gospel the same shall find it. I am in no way trying to be contentious nor looking to be disagreeable just stating my Faith.
Peacefully and humbly submitted.

Sorry, I'm using this format for quoting but I haven't figured out how to quote properly.
I'm responding to DILIGENT's response.

"Sure they are, but individuals and nations are different entities in Scripture."

***I agree with you completely.
The goal of government is to keep peace and sway evil (Romans 13:4). However, nowhere in the Bible is the Christian told to assist government in any way in this endeavor.
Why? Because our current worldly governments are just that, worldly. No government on Earth reflects the heart of God to seek and save that which is lost. So government's purpose is to supress evil (and they seem to be doing a lousy job at it...collectively speaking)


"It's clear that Matthew 5 is talking about personal revenge, because Christ did not come to deny the law (eye for an eye)."

***"You have heard it said...BUT I SAY..." Christ is showing us a more excellent way here and the language is evident.

" Therefor, we must understand that lawful retribution (justice) is a function of the government, not a personal one."

***Again we agree.
However, I go a step further than you by declaring that this implies that Christians should not concern themselves with the affairs of men on this subject (i.e. enlistment in the Armed Forces, fighting this world's wars, etc.) because Christ stated plainly that His Kingdom was NOT of this world.


"Clearly, Christ was not a pacifist nor does he demand his followers be pacifists, since he told them to be armed in Luke 22:36 for travel on perilous roads."

***SPOT ON!!! Jesus was not a pacifist, as you said. Pacifism requires activism and Jesus did not come to Earth to be an activist. However, he did preach non retribution and I don't think it would be fair to build an arguement for carrying swords (or whatever your weapon of choice) based on one verse. Especially since several verses later he corrects Peter for using the very sword He told them to carry. Another Gospel says He told him to put away his sword because the one who lives by it, dies by it.

I admit I don't know exactly what Luke 22:36 is saying in regards to Christians and weapons but I know that He spoke so much against violence, retribution, and vengeance that one verse cannot erase it all away.

"God very clearly is a "man of war" (Exodus 15:3)" and war is a function of nations (Joel 3:9)."

Yes, GOD is a man of war not us.
We, Christians are called to love our enemies and bless them that persecute us.
War, indeed, is function of nations but again, nowhere are we Christians either commanded or encouraged to engage in war except the clear statement of scripture to engage in spiritual warfare.

We wrestle NOT against flesh and blood.
If that's true, what business do I have carrying a rifle around trying to destroy flesh and blood?

I honestly don't mean to come across as condescending, I just really believe the Bible is clear on this subject.

You are creating a contradiction in Scripture where there is none. In the OT, they were commanded to love their neighbours (it is not just an NT command), and they were commanded by God to go to war at various times against their enemies (which were also God's enemies - I'm sure you are not stating that God is not a God of love because He fights against His enemies!).

In the OT, the believer were to defend their families and homes, their countries. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that we are no longer to do this.

Matthew 5 is dealing with being taken to court and being smitten by the judge or officers - and to not resist, turn the other cheek, give them your coat, go the extra mile willingly rather than being forced to do so.

Matthew 5:38-42 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

We see Jesus and Paul actually obeying these commands. They accepted the smiting and abuse of the officers - though Paul exposed their misuse of the law.

You agree that governments have the right to wield the sword. Well, our governments use the armies and navies, etc. to make terrorists and wicked countries pay for their crimes. If you are part of that army, then you are wielding the sword they have given you to fulfill their purpose. That doesn't contradict Scripture. Of course, I would make sure I knew what the conflict was about and that it did not go against God's Word before getting involved.

I couldn't imagine myself wielding a weapon - though if I was drafted and was required to fight by my government, I would obey them as the Bible commands me to do.

Jerry, you didn't state who you were replying to but I'll assume it's me. If not, I apologize.

"In the OT, the believer were to defend their families and homes, their countries. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that we are no longer to do this."

***This is not exactly true.
In the OT the Jews were used by God as His instrument of justice against all the ungodly idolators in the land. Regarding the NT, I don't see any verse telling us to defend anything, much less our country which is at odds with God's Word in so many respects.

Remember that the Bible says our citizenship is in Heaven...not on Earth.

"You agree that governments have the right to wield the sword. Well, our governments use the armies and navies, etc. to make terrorists and wicked countries pay for their crimes."

***Careful, our country has created some of those terrorists. That would make us just as guilty and hypocritical to boot.

"If you are part of that army, then you are wielding the sword they have given you to fulfill their purpose."

***That's my point, exactly. We shouldn't be a part of that or any other Earthly army because the armies of this world exist to fulfill the dictates of the world's government. Again, all world governments are at odds with God so we can't be fulfilling the will of God by fighting against "our neighbors" who the Bible says we are to care for and demonstarte the love of God to.

Paul says in Philippians 2:15 that we are to be "blameless and harmless, the sons of God..." This is a direct reference to The Sermon On The Mount where Jesus says "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." You cannot be a peacemaker while engaging in acts of war.
War doesn't bring about peace, it may supress violence for a time but it doesn't bring about peace. WW1 and 2 should've taught us that.

I honestly cannot find one reference of Jesus telling His disciples to fight and carry on warfare but I can find dozens of Him saying to "be gentle as doves", "resist not evil", "put away your sword", "love your enemies and bless them that curse you", etc.

What the government does is it's business. What the one who names the Name of Jesus does, is God's.
While God usues earthly government to carry out His will, I don't see Jesus calling us anywhere to assist God and harm the very people that He bled and died for.

I hope none of that sounded brash. I didn't mean for it to.

How can "the government" carry out its responsibility to wield the sword without people to do it for them. Government is an entity made up of people - not just an abstract concept.

This is spoken to the nation of Israel:

Leviticus 19:17-18 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

The nation that God sent out to war, to conquer those satanic nations that were currently occupying the Promised Land. Are you stating that when they obeyed God and went to war, that they were hating those people? If that is your conclusion, you have God making them break His own laws - and that would also make the God of war (which the OT calls God) a God of hate, rather than love, which the Bible states He is.

If I may, I'd like to type up this devotional. it is also where I first read Luke 22:36 thank you Brandon for explaining that vexing verse.
Here goes:
"Alvin York, a poorly-educated, red-headed, strapping Tennessean whom his friends called 'Big 'Un", became the greatest hero of World War I. On September 26, 1918, he and his men were ambushed by Germans in the Argonne forest. His bunkmate was peppered with so many rounds his uniform was tor off. Others dropped to York's left and right, and the surviving Americans were pinned down. Rising to his feet, York stepped into hail of bullets and started firing. When his rifle ammunition ran out, he drew his pistol. Bullets and bayonets rained down on him, but in the end York didn't suffer a scratch. He killed the nest of 24 machine gunners, captured 132 prisoners, and singlehandedly saved his men. It was the "greatest single exploit" of World War I.
Ironically, York was a dedicated Christian who had originally requested exeptio as a pacifist. The Sixth Commandment seemed clear to him and he had no desire to fire at anything more than rabbits and squirrels. When the request wa denied, York reported for duty deeply troubled.
But in the army, he met Major George Edward Buxton. One evening the two engaged in a gentle debate of Scriptures. When York quoted the Sixth Commandment, Buxton turned to Luke 22;36: "...he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one." York quoted the passage about turning the other cheek, and Buxton countered with Christ's driving out the moneychangers. York said, "Blessed are the peacemakers", and Buxton said, rende unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's."
Finally, Buxton turned to Ezekiel 33 and read how Israel's watchmen were to blow their trumpets and defend their city. Buxton's eye met York's and it was then, York later wrote, that I knowed I would go to war. I knowed I would e protected from all harm, and that so long as I believed in Him he would not allow even a hair on my head to be harmed.

Your thoughts?

JERRY,

"How can "the government" carry out its responsibility to wield the sword without people to do it for them."

***Obviously they can't, but let them do it with the heathen and not the children of God. You absolutely cannot love your neighbor if you have a gun pointed at his head and you're ready to kill him. Can we all agree that we don't need to bend over backwards to have that make sense?
I don't mean any sarcasm. Honestly. It's important to me that I come across as being charitable and not at all hostile like some folks who come here just to raise trouble.

"Are you stating that when they obeyed God and went to war, that they were hating those people?"

***No, because when they went out, they went out because He said so and to accomplish His purpose which was the vengeance of God against the idolators. The vengeance of God is not at all like the vengeance of man as we all know. God even tells them that the Canaanites would not be destroyed earlier on because the fullness of their sin was not yet complete, demonstarting God's longsufferingness.
Therefore there is no contradiction between God doing something that seems wrathful and Him maintaining His love.
God spoke either audibly to their leaders (i.e. Moses, Joshua, etc.) or else through the prophets when He called His children to war. That doesn't happen today and it's important to note that because if it doesn't happen that way, we shouldn't assume the role of thinking for God when God has not spoken.

PALADIN 54
Thanks for the story. However I think the verses quoted are out of context.
Example: Luke 22:36 comes before Peter cuts off someone's ear and Jesus rebukes him. While I confessed earlier that I don't completely understand that verse I do know that we can't base a doctrine off of just one verse. There's something else going on there that needs to be thought out a bit more clearer.

"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar" - I do not belong to Caesar but to Christ so I have no compulsion to disobey our Lord simply because Caesar said so. If the Lord said "love your enemies and pray for those that curse you" I have no right or authority to disobey and add "and blow their heads off" to the simple command.

Regarding Ezekiel 33- please remember that Israel was God's chosen people and they existed to show off His glory, righteousness, holiness, etc. He even stated that it wasn't because they had merited it but rather because they were nobodies through whom He wanted to work.
There has been no other nation in all of history that can claim that, so appeals to Israel and God's relationship with them need to be examined a bit closer.
Example: God told the Israelites to destroy the Cannanites. God has not told any one else in the whole world to do anything like that ever again.
As such, the Christian must be IN the world but certainly not OF it in matters where God has not clearly spoken.

"Gentle as doves", "They will know we are Christians by the love we have one to another", "Peacemakers"...these are the characteristics of the child of God.


By the way...I am not some liberal, tree hugging, hippie, socialist, yadda-yadda-yadda. My remarks are IN NO WAY politically minded but rather they are motivated by a love for the Word of God and a desire to have the world recognize us by the love we display for it.
These are the things Jesus taught and I feel we have somehow gotten away from this basic Christian doctrine.

I believe the whole Bible, not just the New Testament. I also believe that the Old Testament applies to us - whether directly or by principle - unless the NT specifically states that portion of it is done away with or fulfilled, etc. Therefore I still believe we are to defend our families, our homes, and our nations.

I see from Scripture that as a Christian I am not to take personal vengeance against my enemies - but I do not see where I am not to fight my countries enemies (and there is no such thing as a Christian nation, so we can't assume that God doesn't want our nation to go to war because we are a "Christian nation").

What about the passage where John the Baptist was speaking to the soldiers? He did not tell them to stop being soldiers or never fight.

Luke 3:12-14 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

In this context, I believe the reference to not doing violence is to not extorting others, not controlling others by force.

Jerry,
With all due respect, you have stated something and negated it at once.

"I see from Scripture that as a Christian I am not to take personal vengeance against my enemies - but I do not see where I am not to fight my countries enemies..."

How can you agree not to take vengeance (personal or otherwise) and yet hold to the view that it is ok as long as your country deems it so.
Obviously, our country is not the final authority in matters relating to our faith so how can we justify killing our neighbors after we're told to love them and bless them and even provide for them as in the case of the Good Samaritain.

We are to give them a glass of cold water, give them our cloaks and tunics, walk the extra mile(s) with/for them and ultimately love them as Jesus would because it's Him we represet on this planet.
How then can you say "Yeah, but if my country told me to kill them, it would be ok and God would understand and aprove"?
Can we agree that this arguement is self defeating?

Look, I didn't come here to be argumentative. Actually, this post wasn't originally mine, it's just that the originator has not written again and the topic fell on me because of my views. I also don't want to be controversial for it's own sake.
I honestly believe the Church of our Lord has dropped the ball on this one and we'll be held accountable for calling fire down on our "enemies" when we should've been a light to them showing them the way to the Cross.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live..."
Ezekiel 33:11

You keep trying to set the Bible against itself - that is Ezekiel you are quoting - Old Testament - yet you keep trying to tell us that we are to do something different in the NT. The NT does not contradict the OT. In the OT, when the Israelites fought against the Canaanites, they were to obey Ezekiel 33 just as much as the NT Christian is to today.

Fighting a war for my country is not personal vengeance.

Let's remember the context of this passage: when taken to court, give them your cloak if and walk the extra mile. We can make application to our everyday life to do the same - but that is not what the passage is dealing with. When the Roman soldiers commanded the early Christians to carry their baggage for one mile, they were to go beyond the forced march and carry it two miles - willingly, not reluctantly. When sued for your coat, give them your cloak also. Pay what is owed legally, then go beyond that.

"You keep trying to set the Bible against itself..."

Not at all. I quoted Ezekiel to show that this was God's plan all along and not some thing "new" that He thought up.
Maybe I'm not being clear. My point is that in the OT God had a specific covenant with a specific group of people. While we can draw parallels with them we are children of the New Covenant. That means that while nothing gets erased, it finds its fulfillment in Christ which is why Jesus could say...

"You have heard it said [i.e. The words the Father spoke to the children of Israel for their time - again, we believe that the Father and Son are One] BUT I SAY [same God talking here, but now He's showing us "the more excellent way" Paul discusses, which is love]. This is no contradiction but clarity.

In the issue of adultery: "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time: THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY" Matthew 5:27,28

Obviously this is the law that God gave the Israelites; the 10 commandments...

"...BUT I SAY [emphasis mine] unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in His heart"

When they asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was He responded with two. They were "LOVE GOD" and also "LOVE MAN". In the example above the Law was good and served as a schoolmaster to expose sin but now that we are children of the NT we don't need 2 tablets because the Holy Spirit is living in us to convict us of sin. Those same 10 commandments apply, it's just that now my motive is not to avoid getting into trouble with God, it's trying to please my Master so that I can commune with Him in a way that is pure and righteous and holy; the way He calls us to live before Him.

In the same way, when He says (Matthew 5: 38,39):

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR TOOTH:..."

It's still the same God quoting the same Law He gave the children of Israel. This time it's in Exodus 21:24 as well as Leviticus 24:20 and Deuteronomy 19:21. Granted, this wasn't part of the "Big 10" but it's still the Law of God given to the children of Israel.
However, He continues...


"But I say unto you, that you resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also".

The same rules apply here. The Law was given to expose sin by serving as a schoolmaster. However, now the Holy Spirit lives in us and convicts us of sin.
In this way, if my retaliation on a personal level is wrong, how can it then be made right simply because we've included masses and armed them with weapons and ammunition.

In other words, if I am supposed to love my enemies and bless them that curse me on a personal level, how is it that the rules change when this or any other country says that we are to go to war and kill these same folks?

Please also keep in mind that Paul expounds on this topic by reminding us that our REAL enemies aren't even our fellow man, made in the image and likeness our our Savior (vile though they may be, like us pre-Christ).
He says our REAL enemies are the powers and principalities that exist beyond our natural sight and we have the Armour of God to do combat with these enemies and EVEN THEN the ONLY offensive weapon we get to use against them is the Sword of The Spirit which is the Word of God (i.e the Bible).

I know this smacks against the common culture but the common culture is not the Counsellor; the Holy Spirit is and I think He's been clear.
It's us that have muddied things up.

Love your enemies.
Give them water.
Give them food.
Be as gentle as a dove.
Resist not evil.
Turn the other cheek.
And on, and on, and on...

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
And this COMMANDMENT we have FROM HIM,, THAT HE WHO LOVETH GOD LOVE HIS BROTHER ALSO" 1 John 4:20,21 (emphasis mine)

The Lord bless you all!

Wow, glad you weren't in Europe when Hitler was conquering it - he would have succeeded if no one rose up against him to fight!

Jerry

That's a line I hear often but as per my belief, God is sovereign no matter what so Hitler would not have thwarted God's plan for me individually and mankind collectively.

We are a society that places a heavy emphasis on our personal freedoms and quite a few of those freedoms have been gained by a certain amount of warring. However, I'm asking you to think if this nation is any better as a result of these wars.

STOP!

Don't just answer with a predetermined "Yes, because we're sitting here chatting in English as opposed to German".
Our freedom is found in Christ as Daniel, Joseph, Jeremiah, Paul, John and a slew of other Bible personalities would attest. However, has any of that freedom brought this nation closer to God?

Most Christian and Secular Sociologists are describing this as a Post-Christian generation. The average youth today has NO experience going to church on Sundays and listening to the Gospel being preached. On the contrary, they are predisposed to mentally shut down anything that smacks of religion to them. As a former middle school teacher, I can verify that bit of research.

We are arguably, one of the freeist nations on the Earth yet our witness here is either marred by extremists orabsent from the culture at large. A famous preacher once said "The majority of churches today are either morgues or insane asylums".

All this at the heels of so many wars fought and won.

Conversely, the Church in China has very little freedom yet it is the fastest growing Church on the planet by some estimations.

No wars, no fighting. Just living out the gospel daily...even at the cost of their lives.

So what's my point?

Just that I thnk we place an undue amount of concern over individualism in this country where my rights come first and that is reflected in this nation's attitude towards war.
Jesus said if we wanted to find our lives we needed to lose them.
He said that the first would be last.
He also said that if we wanted to truly live, we had to die to self.

All those examples speak of putting others first...something gravely lacking in our culture (including our culture of war).

So what would have really happened if Hitler has risen and conquered?
I'm not sure but I do know that God is sovereign and that just like Daniel was able to prosper under the Babylonians, the Medo-Persians and the rest, God would make a way for us too.

Our personal comfort level is never an excuse to go to war and destroy our neighbors, made in the image and likeness of our God.

I think an understanding of what vengence actually is might be helpful. I wrote a short essay related to this last year: http://www.brandonstaggs.com/2007/07...nse-vengeance/

My essay doesn't have anything to do with war, but I do try to show what vengeance is. The Old Testament gives us a very, very clear explanation of what is and is not vengeance.

As for war: God has said that he will call nations to war. The New Testament also clearly requires us to be in subjection to our government, and when our government calls us to war, we have to obey unless there is something exactly contrary to God's word about what we are being told to do.

I think volunteering to join the military is an entirely personal matter and between a man and God; none of my business.

The New Testament records Christ's first dealings with a centurion in Matthew 8. Note that this man was more faithful in one way than Christ's own disciples were! Search the NT for "centurion." It's an enlightening study and no Christian has any basis for having anything except respect for honest military men doing service. (I also can not find any reference in the NT were a military man is told to quit his service because it is incompatible with Christian living.)

DILIGENT

Thanks for coming back to this thread. I missed your input.
I'm going to have to read your article later. It's too late now but I'll get to it tomorrow.
With that said I'll only address a couple of your points as I don't have your complete view (without reading the article, that is).

"As for war: God has said that he will call nations to war."

I agree, but that doesn't mean we Christians need to be a part of it. If nations wish to wage war (as they have) then so be it, but I don't have to agree or support war efforts. Neither in word nor deed.
I'm not just talking about my democratic freedom but rather my Christian obligation, as I see it.

"The New Testament also clearly requires us to be in subjection to our government, and when our government calls us to war, we have to obey unless there is something exactly contrary to God's word about what we are being told to do."

I guess here is the main point we disagree on.
Your statement "...we have to obey unless there is something exactly contrary to God's word about what we are being told to do" seems to hold the most tension as I feel that the destruction of another human being (made in the image and likeness of our Savior) is beyond the scope and reason of any Christian.

"(I also can not find any reference in the NT were a military man is told to quit his service because it is incompatible with Christian living.)"

True statement. However, I believe with everything else that Jesus, Paul, John, et al told us about loving our neighbor and being kind to those who persecute us, I find it difficult to hold to the view that because the government said it's ok to kill them, then it must be so.

Folks, I'm going to bow out of this discussion because I feel like I'm simply repeating myself at this point.
I didn't mean to offend anyone so if I did, please accept my apology and forgive me. I simply responded to a question with, what I believed to be, the correct understanding of scripture.

Should anyone want to continue this discussion with me I would, provided they read the entire thread (only so I don't sound like a broken record!) otherwise, God bless you all.

I look forward to "meeting" with you all again on different threads where I'm sure we'll find we actually agree more (on doctrinal and theological issues) than disagree.

***SPOT ON!!! Jesus was not a pacifist, as you said. Pacifism requires activism and Jesus did not come to Earth to be an activist. However, he did preach non retribution and I don't think it would be fair to build an arguement for carrying swords (or whatever your weapon of choice) based on one verse. Especially since several verses later he corrects Peter for using the very sword He told them to carry. Another Gospel says He told him to put away his sword because the one who lives by it, dies by it.


There are obviously times when being armed is Biblicaly OK...otherwise Christ would not have given the instruction to by swords.

Christs' correction of Peter's use of his sword is a result of Peter's untimely mis-use of the weapon..Joh 18:11 "Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? "

Christ told Peter to put his sword back into its sheath...not to throw it away.
The message here is clearly that the carrying of weapons is fine, but they must not be misused.

As for Christians being involved in war....in 1917-18, God used General Allenbie, a Bible thumping Christian, and the Australian Light Horse, along with New Zealanders and a British army, to clear the promised land of the Muslim Turk occupiers. this campaign cleared the way for the fullfilment of Bible prophecy, the return of the Jews to the promised land.
Diary entries from the soldiers indicate that they were very aware of "walking in the footsteps of Jesus" as they liberated the many towns and cities all the way to Jerusalem.

If every Christian in Allenbies army stayed home because they didnt think war was a valid Christian endevour, Israel would not exist today as a towering example of the truth of Gods word and the validity of his promises.

Fundy

There is only one King us Anabaptists would ever go to war for, and He has not returned as of yet, although we await Him. The position that most baptists take is the very one that prevents me from joining any of their churches. I will not, and cannot condone the practice of Christians directly or indirectly taking human life. I've seen those try to reason around the scriptures to promote this sort of thing, but they prove nothing, only that there still are parts of the scriptures that they are not yet willing to accept. We Anabaptists have shed much blood solely on this one issue, and will unapoligetically continue to stand against taking human life. I love you baptists and will continue to seek your fellowship, but I stand firmly against you on this one belief. Know that I like my fellows would gladly die than use the sword against another man.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

Hi Stephen,
and I love you Anabaptists, and seek your fellowship. On this one doctrine of faith, I have been swayed often, so much so that I refuse to correct others, only ask why they say that. I am NOT trying to pin you down and especially not argue, but how do you take
Jeremiah 48:10? The context does not help me.

"Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood."

I guess (without looking to deeply into that verse) one would truly be cursed if he kept back his sword from blood when the Lord clearly commanded him to not do so.

I know there are verses in the bible that speak of times the Lord called the people of Israel to go to war against the enemies of their nation, however I cannot in good faith seek out Scriptures that support my being zealous of a particular nation that I live in. I do not believe the nation I live has good intentions, despite the fact that God uses this nation. What I do believe is that my Master doesn't wish that I resist evil (this includes being a pacifist, which is resistance. We, the Anabaptists, are non-violent and non-resistant). I just think that the Masters commandments in regards to this are clear. Perhaps I'm in error in this, but my spirit does not attest to this.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

From a Non-resistant point of iew, what do you think of the modern nation of Israel?
Does it have any right to exist? Can the nation (biblically) fight to defend themselves.?

I believe that God has put people in authority of different nations to serve His purpose. I do not get involved with telling them how to do their job, and I don't think it is good for them to tell me how to serve His purpose as a disciple of Jesus Christ. I pray for Israel, and for the leaders of that state/nation. I'm not sure if there is much more I can do in good faith.

Much Love in Christ,
Stephen

A.) Yes.

B.) "Diligent" has given you many verses from the Word of God. There are many verses to read...open a concordance and dig in. Check out this one in Deut. 20:8---The Lord knows some are cowards, so the Officers were to send them home. Cowards on the Line are a bad influence.

C.) Pacifists always go to verses about inter-personal relationships, while ignoring the plain statements from the Written Word concerning war. As I said on another thread (responding to an America-loathing pacifist), NO place did Christ Jesus ever tell Soldiers to quit being soldiers, but instead He told them to do their jobs honestly.

D.) Read some of these links and I would suggest that you rent/borrow a movie called "Gods and Generals". It has much footage of Lt. Gen. T.L."Stonewall" Jackson and his wife discussing a passage they had read in Ist Cor., before he had to head out. There is an amazing amount of Christianity that was vibrant during the War between the States. There was a Man who was an Ordained Bishop and a General. (Not a Chaplain btw). Much of this has been swept-under-the-rug by the History revisors. I will also show a couple of links to and about a Soldier of the "Theban Legion" of the Roman Empire. His name was Maurice and his unit was comprised of Christians! Also check out a publisher called "Sprinkle Pubs." They carry many books mentioned below.

http://www.infantryassn.com/awards.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Maurice (Read the Bio links)

The Weather Prayer and some details from the Chaplain:

http://www.pattonhq.com/prayer.html

http://www.pattonhq.com/textfiles/psalms.html Psalm 63

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/g/h/t/ghtwpray.htm Read the words.

Some book titles: "Sprinkle Publications and Gano Books* carries most of them. * Gano is the anglicanized name of Gen. George Washington's Chaplain.

"Christ in the Camp" ---J.William Jones ISBN-1-59442-0629

"A Constitutional view of the War between the States" Alexander Stephens ISBN-1-59442-067-X

"The Great Revival in the Southern Armies" W.W. Bennett ISBN-1-59442-050-5

"Life and Campaigns of Lt.Gen. T.J."Stonewall" Jackson by Robert Lewis Dabney (his chaplain and a Theologian) ISBN-1-59442-051-3

Thanks PB, I will be sure to check those out. Stonewall is my hero, but then that will open more questions, regarding rebellion, I guess that will wait for another day, after war. Thanks again. I'll get back to you when I'm done.

Paladin54:---Shaazaam-Someone actually responded to a post...

Yep. Don't go down any rabbit trails concerning the "R" word, or one of the Brit. posters can/will bring up that "R" thing in 1776.

The point is that many Christians have served their nation in uniform. When there has been a war alarm [call to arms] they have left the plow, picked-up their weapon and served to protect the country. {Which is exactly what The Lord commanded the Israelites to do!}

BTW-My newest Grandson is named "Jackson" for Stonewall's sake, after my Air Force son and his wife saw "God's and Generals".

Speaking of War, were is the book and verses that describes going in and destroying everthing,including woman and children.
My dad had mentioned this,but could not remember where it was.

Turn the other cheek. What free country would exist if there weren't brave men and woman who serve in the military, fighting a war of idealogy,its like telling people its ok for them to fight,but christians are to stay sidelined?
I know many christians who proudly serve this country. We wouldn't have the freedom of speech or religion we enjoy today without them.
God bless our brothers and sisters in the military,let us not forget them!

What about Laws?
I Timothy 1 v8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

If there were no sin we wouldn't have laws or war.
People want to live in a free society, how can that happen when there are others out there ready to kill you for your beliefs, or to convert you to there way of thinking. Sound familiar? Islam! its happening to christians all around the world today.
Has WW3 not started?
The Rapture is close at hand.

Global Warming is real and its coming! Armegeddon! not what Al Gore thinks,those left behind
better get sun block 2500.:eek:

Yes! Gods covenant with Isaac. They took out a Syrian Nuclear facility with little reaction from others.
American needs to remain Pro-Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwmNf...eature=related

Glenn Beck on Israels right to survive.

Edited...

I am still laughing at the 'R' word, I am a Brit and personally i think the War Of Independance was legitimate... mind you if we had not worn the Red Coats you may not have seen us coming... ;)

Ok back to Topic... as has been demonstrated elsewhere here, Israel of Old was commanded to defend herself etc.. Hitting the NT it is interesting that no where is Military life ruled out, John The Baptist did not say quit or become deserters.. Luke 3:14 Also Acts 10 Cornelius I do not read of him leaving the Army?? Then in History there is the Theban Legion all martyred under Diocletian's reign.. There is plenty of evidence down through history of Christians in the Military.

This subject cannot be taken in isolation as it throws up the concept of 'the just war' e.g. WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War 1 & 2, Afghanistan etc how many if any where 'Just Wars'??
To fight a just war requires personnel, we are citizens of our country as well as heavenly citizens Philippians 3:20 but if our country is threatened or attacked as christians do we stand idly by and let others make the sacrifice?? Is that loving our neighbour??

Where do we stop, do you not have Christian Law Enforcement Officers?? Personally if you see someone attacked would you intervene or become reluctant in case you had to exert violence??

Anyone who has been in the military/law enforcement and who have been in Combat will tell you, you do not take life lightly but it is at times a necessary evil. We live in a fallen world with fallen people as well as ourselves. We need to support our men and women in Green and Blue, and hold our Politicians to account so that War is the last resort and justified within the context of saving life liberty and justice...
Every Blessing :cool:

Experience
 

I'm a Marine and been in the Marine Corps now for 3 1/2 years. I've been praying about this very subject discussed in this forum. I'm torn between the two sides. I've heard evidence to support both sides but still I am torn. I don't know how many of the people that have posted comments so far ever served but let me try to give the view from a saved person serving in the Military that is torn between both sides.

Reasons to get out of the Military
-Immorality amongst it's members (sometimes I feel like Lot living in Sodom
every time I go to work).
-The teaching of killing (Almost everything I do is combat related. All of my
training is to prepare me for combat. I've even went to a month long
school to learn how to kill and defend better in order to teach others. My
job itself deals with the ammunition that goes on the jets.).

-The option to pick and choose is gone. If the government wants to fight a
battle that I don't agree with, then I don't have an option. I have to fight
or risk going to prison which would hurt my wife and child.

- The lack of biblical teaching (even the chapalans have to be politically
correct now. In this nations past, biblical teachings were apart of the
military)

Reasons to stay in the Military
-The fields are ready for harvest. There are so many lost that need to hear
the gospel either by word or seeing the christians in the military living it
through the lives. It's strange when a man doesn't go out with the guys to
get drunk and look for women. That is is a amazing witness for Christ.

- We help a lot of people whether is be through community services or relief
efforts. Being in a leadership position now, the Marines under me come to
me for help and advice and I use the scriptures to do this.

- It is a Job. Being a man with a wife and Kid, I must work

There are many more reasons that I have for both sides (such as swearing or taking oaths or providing for your family). This is something I must continually seek God on. I don't get out now until 2012 and at that I time I want to make sure I'm doing the Lord's will. When it comes to fighting I can say that I've been in for going on 4 years and never once been overseas. By no means is this mans doing. I now it was the Lord Keeping me. I'm not saying I don't want to go because if they sent me then I would go. Not with the intent to kill everything that moves but to protect the men under me and make sure they return safely. I appreciate all of the comments on here and they definetly given me something to think and pray about. I also thank you all for your work and finding the scriptures concerning this subject. Do remember that not every christian in the military is killing. We have many wonderful brothers and sisters in the military. Thanks again and sorry for the spelling mistakes (I guess I shouldn't went to college lol).

Chaplainles:---Very Good Post! You mentioned the Theban Legion. Did you see my post on page 3, with 2 links about St. Maurice of the Theban Legion?

BTW---Were you able to find that small Bible that you were looking for?

Oh, another BTW...as an American who has served, and is still on "the books" in Reserve status...as someone with mostly Brit blood in the veins and as a Christian, I've often asked myself what I would have done if I was alive in the 1770's in the "Colonies"---?? About 1/3 of the Colonists were "Tories", or Loyalists to the Crown. They thought that since The Lord God ordained the Monarch,,,then it is not right to fight against the "Crown".

toiwnz:---Hey there Marine! I'm a former 0331. One week after September 11th 2001, I called the Corps to help fight the moslem jihadists...(after waiting to see lines of young men outside every Recruiting Station in this land,,,and NOT seeing that-{as the Men did on December 8th 1941} :( ). The Corps had a special telephone line set up to handle all the Prior Service volunteers responding to the attack on our homeland. The Captain that spoke with me took down my info,,,then politely told me that I was too old to come back into the Corps--He was correct--;) - my knees are not 20 years old anymore. So I joined the Army National Guard. A year and a half ago I was sent to a readiness processing station for about a week for Deployment. The Doctor said I had "shortness of breath", my left knee audibly "popped' in his presence during the leg-bend test, and my hearing isn't too good--(the 0331 MOS!) ---The above mentioned stuff is to let you know that I made myself available...and understand your concerns. "Cover and alignment, aye-aye sir."

I will remind you that you enlisted (you were not drafted) in a branch of the U.S. Military that is known for being warriors. I'm positive that there was at least one poster in the recruiters office that said things like "First to Fight--Join the U.S. Marines", or "We Don't Promise You a Rose Garden!" I'm assuming that you are either Aviation Ordnance or Logistics, so your chance of doing regular standard infantry 0300 tasks are very slim. If deployed you and your squad/platoon may pull "perimeter guard duty". All of this was explained to you when/before you signed the contract by the Recruiter. If you want a non-combatant job/MOS then you are in the wrong branch---Remember that every Marine is trained to qualify with and be able to use his Rifle.

The things you posted are true. Morality is a problem, but as someone who works in the civilian world, I can tell you; there is trash everywhere. We as Christians are called to be "Salt and Light"...preserving and illuminating. My son is Active Duty Air Force, and a Christian (and my Daughter-in-law) he just Re-enlisted while in a Hostile-Fire Zone--"Over There". He is an E-5 who will test soon for his E-6 stripe. True about many of the Chaplains, but what to do about that...? Leave,bail-out? Or,be Salt and Light? Start a Bible Study Group and/or find a good Bible trusting/Christ preaching Church near the Base...My son attended a good Baptist Church in the small town next door to his former AFB in Missouri. Seek and Ye shall find!

Here is a section of Scripture that is very germaine to this Thread and I hope you will read it and find encouragement. Have you ever heard of King David and his mighty men, or David's Men of Valor? Please look at 2 Sam. 23:8-39 and also 1st Chronicles chapter 11 thru chapter 12 verse 18. These men were warriors that served The Lord! Carry on Marine, out.

The Jehovas Witness cult also reject the idea of patriotism ( national zealouness), saluting the flag, joining their countries armed forces, as well as promoting a non-violent and a non-resistance ideology.

Where do you stand on the doctrines if Christs' diety and identity, salvation by grace through faith, eternal security and the final authority of Gods Word?

fundy

Thanks PB1789 for the comments, yes I did see your Post. When I get time I want to scope out the Theban Legion more. Re: 1776 and all that big subject :D the 'knock on' effect to Britain is quite interesting as we went to War with our ahem..:rolleyes: European neighbours...:( But I never have believed in the 'Divine Right' of the Monarchy as such. But that brings up the English Civil War.... ;)

Ok, towinz, first off Bro. I am praying for you, I see from your post that you did not say if you were saved before you joined up? Nevertheless I have a saying, 'Bloom Where Your Planted'.
I see you have a lot of inroads into reaching your comrades with the Gospel, hey Bro. your a Marine so you must be made of the right stuff, so whats a little hardship if you can reach others??? ;)
If you leave WHO is going to reach those you leave behind? You need to have a mega close walk with the Lord though to see you through. IMHO at the moment you have job security (thats for your family) and you are where God wants you to be. 4 Years in and no overseas deployment whoooa... I can see Gods hand in that. :D
I know what you mean about Chaplains in the Military, the same happens over here, but Bro. You got the Book, you got to knees... get em working...;)
You take care brother in prayer for you... Semper Fi......
Every Blessing....:cool: