Salvation = faith + works?
 

One of the subgroups of dispensationalism that bothers me is where they start to add works to salvation in other dispensations and during the Great Tribulation. People holding to such beliefs are usually Ruckmanites. Salvation is by grace through faith in ALL DISPENSATIONS and ALL COVENANTS.

Any thoughts?

Not all who teach that are Ruckmanites.

Jesus taught that in Matthew 19, before the Cross.

BibleStudent - are you saying that Jesus taught that people in other dispensations and during the Great Tribulation are saved by works and faith?

Matt 19:16-29
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
KJV

Question:What good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Jesus' Answer:Keep the commandments.

Question: Who then can be saved?
Jesus' Answer: Every one that hath forsaken houses, etc. shall inherit eternal life.

BibleStudent - which dispensations or other time periods (such as the Great Tribulation) do you add "works" to salvation?

In time periods under which Abraham lived and Rahab lived:

James 2:14
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
KJV
James 2:21
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
KJV
James 2:24-25
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
KJV

This occurred after Abraham had been justified by faith. This sacrifice of Isaac was an act of sanctification. It provided evidence that Abraham had in fact been justified by faith previously. Look back at Romans 4.

In fact all of Romans is about justification by faith alone. And to prove the point Paul writes about how both Abraham and David was justified by faith not by good works.

I am sorry, I was operating under the assumption that our frame of reference was from the Fall until the Second Coming. Clearly, Adam and Eve fell because of their lack obedience. But before they fell the did not need saving either. So you have a moot point I think. Therefore, even after the Fall, Adam and Eve were saved by faith alone no personal works included.

Besides our faith in God does not save us. Even the devils believe in God and they tremble. We are saved because we place our faith and trust in Christ to save us. This is more than just a mere belief in God, but rather a specific trusting in God's Son, Jesus Christ, and the substitutionary atonement He made for us on the cross.

As you can see by your posts (copied above) it seems that you are referencing ‘other’ and ‘ALL’ dispensations. I am sorry for any confusion.

I beg to differ. Were they saved by ‘faith’?

Adam and Eve had met God, in the garden, they interacted with Him, they knew Him, and did not need ‘faith’ in order to know that He is.

Those of us who have never seen Him, we have faith, we do not have proof.

”Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:27-29)

Faith in God is different from the devils, for they know Who God is, they called Jesus by His Title, His Name. They didn’t believe, as in having ‘faith’ that God exists, they KNEW.

Big difference, brother.

Adam and Eve had to have faith that God would save them. I am not speaking of faith in God versus personal experience with God. I am speaking of a faith in Jesus Christ to save us. Adam and Eve would require that same faith. Because that is not something they could have seen until death.

We are examining salvation. The so called dispensation of innocence did not require salvation as Adam had not sinned. Salvation was not required until the second dispensation of conscience (I think it is called that). Salvation in this dispensation and all that follow is by grace through faith in Christ alone.

I beg to differ, brother. Salvation in this age (the Church Age, from Calvary to the Rapture) is indeed by grace and grace alone, through faith, with no admixture - - - not the slightest admixture - - - of works. That is rock-solid, basic Bible doctrine.

But it is a mistake to say that such will be the case "in all (ages) that follow." It will certainly not be the case during the Tribulation, when a man or woman is saved by enduring to the end (Mtt. 10:22). This endurance requires faith in Jesus Christ, plus works: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city (Rev. 22:14). An example of not "enduring to the end" would be taking the mark of the Beast: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name (Rev. 14:9-11). Some say, "Well, a Christian wouldn't (or couldn't) take the mark, or worship the Beast." No? Then why does the context - - - in fact, the very next verse - - - say, Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Of course, I'm only addressing the Tribulation in this post, not the situation in the Old Testament. That's another matter. But it's pretty clear that salvation in this age, and salvation in the Tribulation, are conditioned on dramatically different things.

Yes God has always brought salvation in EVERY dispensation ( except one) by grace through faith.

( I REALLY dislike it when people say that, I believe that it is a weak statement, a cop out.)

Yes salvation has been by grace through faith.

But faith in what?

What God said you needed to do to be saved.

Build a boat, keep the commandments, believe I am going to make a great nation from your offspring, love your brother, have faith in what Christ did and receive the faith of Christ, do not
take the mark etc...

PS: Adam was not saved by faith, he did not need faith. Faith is hope in something you do not see, Adam walked with God, talked with Him, even tried to hide from Him in the garden. No faith needed there.

Faith is not what makes you believe, it is the substance of what you believe.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Well I guess James did not know what he was talking about.
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

dang, that pesty little book of James

My answer
 

This is my conclusion when one asks what they need to do to be saved or what does it take or what must they do or believe or ...

Well...

"I believe that ONLY Jesus saves.

What we do in this life demonstrates how much we believe."

That's my quote, and I am sticking to it.

I think of the astonished people who wondered when Jesus said hardly a rich man will enter Heaven---and who can be saved, was asked...
Jesus said only with God, yes?
Some years ago I was in a major discussion on line about our knowledge of doctrine and how important it was to know, etc., but something really hit me with the in depth discussion, that even our knowledge of doctrine will not save us.
And I think about every single Christian that I know, that I had ever come across, that I ever known, even right here on this forum, NOT ONE, no not one believes identically as another individual...for God made us all individuals, and we are all part of the Body of Christ, we are not one big giant eyeball or monstrous nose or something, but all at different levels, different thoughts, different backgrounds. Unfortunately, many do not all count each other Christians, although the world does...Except we might not be so elitist perhaps in times of persecution...or thinking about it spiritually around the Throne of God.
It is like looking at a physical Christian history book, no matter which one one chooses, one pretty much knows how Christianity started, but the end of the book is a free for all, so many thousands upon thousands of denominations, each one having different ideals, the pendulum is wide from one extreme to the other on just about every Christian doctrine. And most new churches probably started by un-reconciliation, arguments, and splits.
So does our knowledge, works, save us? I think we are in trouble, then, actually.

But God looks at the heart. We could even say that there are some places in the Bible that state, who finds salvation, and that is, those who fear HIM.
Which means that they believe in God...and reverence Him.

This is another case where proper "interpretation" of Scripture results in proper "application" of Scripture.

On the one hand, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

And on the other hand, "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20). James is simply teaching that when a person has faith in Christ, it results in genuine works. His letter is addressing the practical aspects of living the daily Christian life, not how to be saved from the penalty of sin.

We conclude that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, (His death for our sins, burial, and resurrection), is by grace through faith and results in a life of good works.

"But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty" (Matthew 13:23).

In either case; eternal salvation and good works, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).

Salvation = faith + works?
 

James was discussing that with a true faith, action follows.

In Hebrews,That is the definition of faith.

Re: Doxa - "My answer"
 

Aloha Doxa,

Your Quote:
1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

"Doctrine" is extremely important. By believing the "right doctrine" a person is saved! Believing in the "wrong doctrine" will damn a person to Hell!

No one person knows all there is to know about the Scriptures. And there certainly are differences of "opinion", and differing convictions and beliefs amongst Christians - even in Apostolic times (Peter & Paul - Barnabas & Paul). BUT, the fact that we Christians may disagree with each other doesn't negate the necessity to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." [2 Timothy 2:15]; nor does it give us an "excuse" to assume that because of all the differing opinions and beliefs held by Christians that "doctrine" is not all that important.

The truth is, it's NOT: what we each believe in our heart that really matters - It's whether we have believed THE TRUTH (in our hearts) that really matters, and it is THE TRUTH that will determine where we will spend eternity!

Your statement: "something really hit me with the in depth discussion, that even our knowledge of doctrine will not save us." illustrates the danger of going by "feelings" rather than searching the Scriptures to see whatever "hit" you was true. In light of the Scriptures I quoted above - whatever "hit" you wasn't the TRUTH! :confused:

In addition, as I have read through your Posts I detect a tendency on your part to lean on your own understanding and personal experiences, rather than the Scriptures. The following statement made by you illustrates my point:
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

The purpose of studying the Scriptures is to "see" whether the "thousands of denominations" and the many "differing ideals" are TRUE or NOT. We are to study the word of God so that we will not be ashamed. We study the Bible and try to "rightly divide the word of truth" because we are seeking God's "approval": [2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.].

I care not what men may say - I want to know what God says. ["What saith the Scripture?"]. I am not interested in what I may personally "think" (or "feel") about a matter; or an issue; or a doctrine - I want to know what God says about a matter, an issue, or a doctrine. I do not rely on "personal experiences" in my life to determine the TRUTH of a matter or a doctrine - I go to the Scriptures to see what God has to say and seek out the Holy Spirit's guidance for discernment, understanding, and wisdom.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I do not trust other men to determine the TRUTH for me. To be honest - I don't trust my personal "thoughts", "feelings", or "experiences" when it comes to determining the TRUTH. [Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.] But there are some doctrines that are are of such importance that I will not fellowship with another "Christian" if they do not believe and accept them. {See: AV1611 Forums > Doctrine > "Why isn't the Second day of Creation said to be good?" > Page #4 > My Post #32 for the list}

Doctrine is of the utmost importance. And just because we Christians may differ on "The Gap"; "The Kingdoms"; "The Rapture"; "The timing and purpose of the Tribulation"; or "how to baptize (forward or backwards!)"; or "how to celebrate the Lord's Supper (one cup or individual glasses!)"; or "whether a woman should wear a hat in church or not"; etc.; etc.; doesn't mean that the major doctrines {listed by me on Post #32}, that are of extreme importance, can be ignored or compromised. We are commanded to "contend for the faith", in order to "contend" we have to first know what "the faith" (doctrine) is.

Your statement:
It's true that: "God looks at the heart", but the road to Hell is paved with: "good motives" and "good intentions". Contrary to what you have said - those who "fear" God are NOT necessarily saved! [James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.] There are many people in the world that may fear God, but if they haven't believed the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ they are as lost as if they never "feared".

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I know some mighty fine Catholics who "fear" God, but who have embraced FALSE DOCTRINE, and who are trusting in the "church" (or Mary, or the Pope, or some Saints, etc.) to save them. They are sincere in their beliefs, BUT if they don't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on Calvary, and if they don't RECEIVE Him as their personal SAVIOUR - they are going to end up in Hell whether they "fear" God or not!

I don't know of a "nice" way to say that you are mistaken, so I'll speak plainly - Your Posts indicate that you are not grounded in the Scriptures. You need to study the King James Bible and seek out the Holy Spirit's guidance. If you are married you should be receiving instruction from your husband; if you are not married you should seek out a King James Bible believing church (if you can find one) and receive some instruction from a Bible believing man, called of God and, able to teach the Holy Scriptures.

God is not the author of the confusion that is reigning in the churches today - Satan is! And the major reason for the anarchy and confusion is the perverse influence of Humanism that is so prevalent in the world today. Every man (and woman) is doing "that which was right in his own eyes" and are choosing to ignore God's TRUTH:

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is TRUTH.

The Bible (The Holy Scriptures) is to be our FINAL AUTHORITY in all matters of faith and practice. What we (or others) "think", "feel", or "experience", cannot SUBSTITUTE for the TRUTH of God's words. "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." [Matthew 4:4]. I personally, am not interested in whatever "scraps" or "crumbs" that I, or others, may dig up from whatever source there may be. I want to know: "What saith the Scripture?" :)

Brother Here Am I, you are not suggesting those who believe in Jesus go to hell are you?

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" (Matthew 7:22).

They prophesied, cast out devils, and did many wonderful works in His name...but they did not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

No. Many who believe in Jesus as the Son of God, but do not have that relationship with Him, who have not accepted His work, and been born again, they're the ones headed for Hell.

That's what I meant. Sorry if I was not clear.

And fwiw, I'm a 'sister', hence my reference to myself as a 'weaker vessel'... :D

Thanks for clarifying. :)

"faith in the Lord Jesus Christ", can you show me that phase in the King James Bible?

If you can't can you show me something close to that phase?

Answer my question and I shall answer yours. What does the word faith mean?

George, George, George
 

If you digest my entire message and all the things elsewhere that I have written, you will perhaps realize what I meant when I said that.
When I speak of doctrine, off the top of my head (and it is late here) I'll give an example. What about the verse (1 Cor 14:34) where it says about women being silent in the church. For centuries, men have dissected it to interpret that verse exactly how they see fit. If one takes it literally, women really have no place in church, because after all women and men are to pray without ceasing. Let alone sing praises to God and hymns and psalms to one another in communication. Thereby, if one takes that verse literally, one cannot participate in church if they are a woman. My point, is there are some things we cannot understand or interpret properly because the exact intent or meaning has been lost. Was even Paul saying that or addressing a question. Tons of commentaries out there with various opinions. We can analyze it, and know for example that in those verses, these women are to ask their husbands at home. First problem is that not all women have a husband. And then we discover that in the Greek, the word for women and wives is the same. So, are we talking about women who are married chattering with their husbands in church?
It would be the same as in 1 Timothy where it talks about women not teaching. Some churches teach it is not okay for women to preach but it is okay for them to teach children in Sunday School and such things. A real "interpretation" of that Scripture in how they see fit. Well, we would completely be at a loss until we discover that there are about eight different Greek words for teach. Possibly, the one used there was the kind of teach that meant, teach someone a thing or too, like lording it over someone.
But nonetheless, my point is to show that we really have a lot of questions pertaining to real Truth, and only the Lord reveals if He chooses to do so.

Another point, is when I was a kid I believed in God; I got saved in a Baptist church as a teenager, but I did not know that Jesus died for me until I was in my twenties. Did my lack of knowledge disqualify me?
No, because although I was devoid of this precious information, I simply believed in Jesus. Jesus looks at the heart.

That man on the cross next to Jesus, did not know doctrine, but he believed that Jesus was good and had faith in Him. I truly believe he is with the Lord.

As a matter of fact, in the Gospels, I see places where Jesus said to some, go thy way. After HE healed them, etc. HE actually did not tell them to wait until they got a parcel of doctrine. I would even venture to say that many did not know that HE was going to die for them. But they believed He was the Messiah...and healer. Were these people disqualified because they did not read and understand Paul's letters and follow them? No because God wrote it on their hearts. This LOVE thing. And did HE not say that is how His disciples would be recognized??

I would never say it is okay to go down easy street; I believe God expects us to use what He has given us. If He gives us much or gives us very little, like the talents, what did we do with what God gave us? That is the question.

George, you missed my point completely. Furthermore, I truly believe that churches like the Catholic church have major differences from the Baptist churches, but God certainly still meets people where they are at, and I have done a lot of investigating into their faith as well as various others, and you know what? They are getting a lot of their views from the Bible, just a completely different interpretation of it.

For example, Matthew 5:23...there are probably 2 billion or so Christians that believe that that verse is still applicable (Eucharist) (Since Catholics believe that there is no other thing that they can offer the Father, except the eternal Blood of Jesus), whereas many other Christians actually do not believe that that verse is still applicable today. You may ask how did it get like that? The pendulum swings so very wide in the opposing views from church to church, one extreme to the other. Yet, the Catholic people recite and believe the Creed often, and is that not the similar/basic views of most churches? Other Christian churches believe vastly different in doctrines, but they too have a solid rock foundation, JESUS. Are they too disqualified, because of generations of skewed ideas? And then again, who is right? Yet, God still meets them where they are at and blesses them and calls them His children and saves them because they believe in Him.

Just a thought. I could go on and on and on. But I must retire for now; I am very tired. Good night for now.

Ok, that's fair and reasonable.

Faith is the action that revels what you believe and who you are, though it you can give prasie and glory to God.

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26).

“For by grace are ye saved [saved from the penalty of sin, which is eternal separation from God in the lake of fire] through faith [in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ]; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” (Ephesians 2:8).

“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus” 2 Timothy 3:15).

With all due respect, that strikes me as a very odd, and inadequate, definition.

As has been noted, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Heb. 11:1). Our actions, except when performed in private, are seen. And even the private ones - - - oh, me - - - are seen by God.

But faith cannot be defined in one verse alone. We mustn't forget the provenace of faith: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph. 2:8,9). In verse 8, the antecedent of "and that" is faith: faith is the gift of God. It is certainly not my acts, or anything generated by my acts.

Of course, this God-given faith will result in actions: that's what the very next verse is about: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. But that's a far different thing than saying that faith is "the action that reveals what you believe and who you are."

Yes, my "good works," such as they are, might reveal what I believe in; or they might not. They might be misinterpreted. One of the great horrors of my life is the fear that unbelievers might say, "Oh, he did good things because he was a good man, or a nice guy." God forbid!

If you want to see the acts that reveal "who I am," look at my sins. I'm just a forgiven sinner.

Good, sound doctrine, brother. It is so very true when Jesus said, "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5).

Nothing really does mean nothing!

I've learned to be active in simply, "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God" (Hebrews 12:2).

Amen and amen. Every day, sometimes several times a day, I pray the same thing: whether getting ready to take a shower (when I might slip and break my neck), or going to work when I'm tired, or witnessing, I say, "Lord, I can't do this. Without You, I can do nothing. But, 'I can do all things through Christ, who strengtheneth me,', so strengthen me, please!" Remembering those two verses, together, gets me through.

Amen again. But, as Ruckman says, keeping your eyes on Jesus, consistently, is the hardest thing to do in the Christian life.

But, someday, it'll be the easiest!

Re: "Faith & Works"
 

Aloha brother,

I just wanted to give a double amen to your testimony. It is such a pleasure to see and hear another brother in Christ that understands that: we are NOTHING, and HE IS EVERYTHING!

Amen brother and God bless you and yours.:)

Re: "Husbands not leading"
 

Aloha sister,

You have presented a very complicated situation - one which I confess is very difficult to answer. (and I certainly don't have all the answers!)

First off I believe that it behooves you to continue to be the kind of wife that you have striven to be: faithful, loving, and in submission. [1 Peter 3:1-6]

The best thing (I personally believe) that could happen to your husband would be if he would form a friendship (or friendships) with a real Bible believing Christian man. [Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.]

In the 50 years that I have been a Christian - I have found that outside of God and God's Holy word, a good Bible believing Christian friend can be a real help and a blessing in a Christian man's life. I am really blessed, in that I have at least 7 good Christian friends (all men - going back to 1968 up to the present - most live off Island) and that my wife is not in the least bit jealous of these friendships (as a matter of fact she encourages them).

In addition, although I am "friendly" with several Christian women - I have no close friendships with any woman - other than my wife, and would never seek such a friendship.

You cannot force your husband into such a beneficial "friendship", but you can pray that God would bring along some Bible believing Christian man that might befriend your husband.

One more word of caution - Unlike most women, my wife has never formed the kind of close friendships with other women that most American women form. Her entire life has been devoted to her God, her husband, and her children (in that order). And as such, most women avoid her because of her "chaste conversation coupled with fear" and "the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit".

If a Christian woman (like my wife) chooses to live her life according to the Scriptures, it may cost her some close relationships with "friends" (and possibly family), but on the other hand, because my wife has chosen to put God and Family first, she is greatly loved and appreciated - not only by myself, but by our entire family (at present - 6 grown children; 17 grandchildren; and three great-grandchildren; and one grown son, who is presently at home with the Lord); and is greatly respected by all of my Christian friends; and by the community we live in.

It's a sad state of affairs that there are so many Christian wives that are more concerned with the things of God than their husbands. I attribute that to our Humanistic society that portrays Christian men as "pansies", "wimps", and effeminate "fops" (and sadly many are! :() . A real man tries to avoid such labels, but in doing so he is often influenced by the "fear of man" into avoiding living for Christ.

Pray. "Pray without ceasing". Pray that God will convict and convince your husband of his need to live his life according to the Scriptures; continue to follow the Scriptures yourself; and don't despair - It took over 20 years before I fully appreciated my wife, and another 10 years before I began to fully appreciate my Lord! :confused:

Proverbs 29:25 The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.

Psalms 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, and put your trust in the LORD.

Psalms 73:28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

Psalms 115:11 Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

You should share that story sister, it may prove the catylst that edifies another brother or Sister enough to leave an apostate Church behind. I too, left a Church that had begun a descent into Babylon and found a wonderful Bible Believing Baptist about 3 miles up the road Praise the Lord! If wee seek the truth, the LORD will Provide.
1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Stay in the Light Sister
God Bless

Amen. Thank you, brother. I will, but not right now...we had a full morning of Sunday School, preaching, then dinner, then more preaching and now I'm about ready for a nap. Maybe later. :D

As the LORD move you sister, as the LORD moves you.
When you add yours, I will add my experience, then maybe together in the will of God we will encourage those on the forum that I know are struggling with ecumenism in their present church, and need the word of God to guide them in their decision.