Shocking Video Stuns Listeners
 

Has anyone seen the video I am referring to?

If you haven't, I'm not going to link it (you don't want to see it. Waste of time).

What do those who have seen it think of it?

Is it the next "Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God" as half the internet seem to be proclaiming, or is it simply false doctrine (SITHOAAG had it's fair share of false doctrine too)?

My major concern is that Paul Washer honestly doubts the salvation of EVERYONE in that room, because they do not match up to his definition of biblical salvation (which is skewed by his hypercalvinist views of doublepredestination). Essentially, if you don't live like a Christian, you AREN'T saved, according to Mr Washer. If you haven't forsaken your sins, you aren't saved (what about the sin of ROCK MUSIC Mr Washer. Those drums look mighty purdy standing there behind you. You didn't mention it once in your sermon, and since you happily preached at this convention, it seems you don't care).

What do the Bible Believers think?

And I'm NOT asking the calvinists on here who love defending their "doctrines of grace", which are not very gracious at all. I understand their reasoning "Oh, God is so graceful that he chose to even save some of us despite our wickedness". But they never mention that they believe God "eternally decreed that Adam would fall and mankind would become wicked".

The grace of God hath appeared to ALL men.

Anyway, about Paul Washer, what saith the scriptures?

Sorry,do you have links?
Myself and others who i attend church with, would not fit into the catagory of christian in this guys book. Christians come in many size's, shapes and forms. Look at there doctrine,what is there foundation? Salvation through Jesus shed blood. You can't always tell a christian by there appearance. Many are suprised to know i listen to Rock music.
Hope i don't get kicked off here?:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8

That's the link to the message. Admittedly, it is a convicting message, and he raises a lot of valid points.

But, what are "good works". He never seems to mention them. Is soulwinning a good work? He doesn't mention it. Apparently, being martyred is a good work, but I don't have much chance of that. It seems his definition of good works, is a lack of bad ones.

There is just something off about the message.

(And no, rock music will not condemn you to hell if you are born again, but it will affect you, and it is against God and is a sin, so you should get rid of it and get some godly music :) )

Re: "matters of faith"
 

If it is not all of "GRACE" - we all are doomed! (GRACE = God's Riches At Christ's Expense). I am JUSTIFIED because of what HE DID - not because of what I am DOING! (JUSTIFIED = Just as if I never sinned).

Brother, if any one " thinks they have "anything" to do with their Salvation (other than "believing") they are ADDING to the "finished" work of my Saviour on Calvary! And they "deserve" whatever God has "in store" for them at the Judgment ("Judgment Seat of Christ" or the "Great White Throne"). :(

I don't know what to think of this guy, America christianity being totally wrong? does that mean he is totally right. God forgive us of sectarianism.
Yes, there are some good points,but, he seems like a miserable christian. Southern baptist's are not the only ones going to heaven. Yes, i understand Sin and Salvation,Baptism and Communion and have accepted Jesus and what he has done for me in my heart. If you are so Legalistic, you may miss out on an opportunity to witness.
Anyone here,not have Skeletons in there closet?

George, I hope you don't hold copyright on those two acronyms, as I intend to wholly appropriate them shamelessly for my own use, LOL! :D

As to your second point, I wholly agree with the preface. However, I think the latter portion will be as any other sin....forever washed away. There may be some lack of reward experienced over it, I don't know.:confused:

That's why I don't have much trouble with a typical Southern Baptist "Sinner's Prayer", in whatever derivative you may have heard it. As a rule, there is normally a sincer attempt to point out just WHAT it is that you're SUPPOSED to believe in. That is, that Christ is God, Son, Messiah, the ONLY way, and that his sacrifice was all that is/was needed.

Indeed, we've discussed this at my church many times. There will no doubt be any number of Catholics, perhaps a couple JW's, and even....gads!..Mormons in heaven with us. Maybe even an outlaw biker or two? ;)

Shocking Video
 

posted by pneuby#3

You left out the prefix ex. Only ex Catholics, ex Mormons, ex JW's. I for one will be one of those Saved by the blood exCatholics. Praise the Lord!

Renee

Aloha brother,

I wish that I could take credit for both of them but they were very popular in the 1970's (I have no idea who originated them) - maybe they have fallen out of favor?

Since God is the only one in the Universe that can tell what is in a person's heart - I leave it up to Him as to who is saved and who is not. I just know that there is only one way to the Father:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Any "other way" is COUNTERFEIT & FALSE! And at this point in the history of the world, there are so many false "christian" religions (most originating in America - Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Cambellites, christian science, etc., etc.) that is getting more and more difficult for people to discern just exactly who is a Christian and who is not. Personally I think that the "bikers" stand a better chance! :(

Maybe I'm reading this wrong. Is not this statement (pneuby's) typical of those who have not the proper fear of loss at the Bema judgment. Our sins ARE washed away, but our service WILL be judged.

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

I'm not sure what the SB's prayer is, but if it is not in "repentance", coming into agreement before a holy God of our estate before Him, that we are lost and undone sinners worthy of only His wrath, in need of the Saviour, we can believe in our heads that Christ is God, Son, Messiah, the ONLY way, but His sacrifice will be of none effect until we KNOW we are sinners, trusting in in only His finished redeeming work at the cross. Trusting in our hearts that He bore all our sins and incurred the wrath we deserve. Understanding what the "ONLY way" is, and that it excludes us doing anything but believing. The JW and Catholic will probably still be trusting in his own ability to do something of worth to reconcile himself to God. The biker seems to understand his position of a rebel as a badge of honor, or something. He has to see his rebellion for what it is too.

Maybe Mr. Washer confuses our good works unto Him as a condition for salvation. Unfortunately, we can believe, and live more carnally than the heathen. What loss we should suffer! I didn't watch the whole video, but I think I got the gist.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

i think you guys are missing the whole of the message. i loved the message, paul never said salvation is anything that we do, he merely brought up that if you are born again, you are a new creature, and you WILL behave differently, you WILL have a change of heart, and it will be entirely because we are born again and are new people in Christ Jesus..

see, paulwasher is schooled in something that is not taught much today, holiness. we are made holy in God's eyes by the sacrifice of Christ on calvary. however as eph. 2 points out God has ordained good works for us that we should walk in them. all the things paul talked about in that sermon are acts of holiness. yes, paul washer is a 5 point calvinist, not that you'd know that from hearing that message. and yes he believes things i don't agree with, but in that message [modern american Christianity], he is calling the church back to holiness. we are just a step away from showing up in church wearing next to nothing. in fact some people today already show up like that.

what did he say that was so bad? he didn't doubt everyone's salvation in that auditorium what he did was wake them up with the truth that we are called to be separate from the world. that we are to live a life of separation and holiness. and are to rebel against sin, and cling to Jesus Christ

Did he tell anyone in that audience how to actually get saved if they weren't.

No, he didn't, and I'll tell you why.

He is a 5 point calvinist who believes that a man must be regenerated before he can be saved. He believes that God will save whoever God chooses, and that this was decreed before the foundation of the world. He believes that if he was to stop persevering, it would be a sign that he was never saved in the first place.

He explains this very clearly in another sermon, giving a testimony of a man who wanted to be saved, but felt that he couldn't, because he "felt no change wrought in him". Mr Washer then says "that man has better theology than most baptist pastors in America". So Mr Washer proceeds to go through the gospel with the man until suddenly, after reading John 3:16 for the hundredth time, a feeling comes over him and he starts shouting that he is saved. His sermons are all done with a high pitched wavy, shaky voice, half crying most of the time, and it comes across as showing compassion sometimes, but other times, one could accuse him of charasmatic emotionalism.

You think Paul Washer is schooled in this "unknown doctrine" of Holiness? Do you even know what independent baptists stand for? Seperation & Holiness. Some of them take it even further than Mr Washer, who claims in his sermon "What is the Gospel" - "I am not against mixed swimming or anything like that". If Paul Washer is so holy, why is he preaching against a backdrop of electric guitars and drums?

As I have said (maybe not in this thread, please forgive me), I think that the sermon raises a lot of good points, but it goes about the wrong way to do so. Works are not evidence of salvation. Faith is. Sinners can do good works before men. It is not evidence that they are saved. Sinners can have joy and peace, but it's not evidence that they are saved. The only evidence a man is saved is that he has faith in Jesus Christ.

And a quote from another post on this Thread: "He's a 5 Point Calvinist". end Quote.


Luke:---What is your problem..? Did some kids that attended a Reformed Church steal your lunch money when you were in 4th Grade? Seems like you have a "knee-jerk reaction" and can't help yourself from using Calvinists/calvinism/5 Point calvinists as a cussword. You started a thread and asked folks to explain Dispensationalism to you...yet, in actuallity you already had made up your mind and in fact admitted that you didn't understand Calvinism--but,,,you were against it...:confused:

I posted a couple of links and mentioned a few names, yet you obviously did NOT bother to look at them but instead get your info from Youtube. I will post some more links and this time please read them and do some thinkin'/mulling/searching. Ask yourself some questions. This website is for the A.V. and as such I imagine the founder of it believes his Bible as do I. Do you not know, have you not heard of the MEN that stood up in the 1500's during what we call the Reformation?

Before you make fun of and insult Calvinists you should read "The Institutes of the Christian Religion" which Calvin (who had fled to Geneva,Switzerland) wrote as a letter to the King of France, trying to reason with the Roman Catholic monarch that Bible-believing Christians were not heretics, and using the Bible to frame his points. Martin Luther did very similar things for the German speaking peoples and translated the word of God into the language of the people. Have you not heard of men like Martin Bucer,John Knox,Zwingli...? These men were Bible Believers and were in league with the Doctrines of Grace. Why? Because all of those men listed and many more stood for the Bible and Free Grace instead of the Pope and the Vatican's religion of faith+works+church traditions. When Luther stood before the Diet of Worms he used Scripture to back his points. When the Pope sent spies to Geneva to find out what Calvin was preaching...his guys returned and said: Calvin reads from the Scriptures and preaches. Have you ever/never heard or read Thomas Cranmer, Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Dr. J.Vernon McGee, Pastor C.H. Spurgeon, Dr. John Gill, Arthur W. Pink...? These men were Bible-believers and they were Calvinists!


It wasn't until the 1600's in The Netherlands that a professor Jacob Hermann (Arminius=Latinized name) started teaching some departures from the Reformed teachings. Some of his students and a few fellow teachers wrote them down as the 5 points of Arminius= "The Remonstrance". The State Government and the Church Government held a council and repudiated the Arminians by SCRIPTURE and then published the 5 points of Calvinism or better The Doctrines of Grace. This was known as the Synod of Dort.

Grace= God's unmerited favor. { meaning we did NOT deserve His favor, but our God was gracious to us...Amen!}

Exposition of the Doctrines of Grace:

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0385.htm {read the words of the Wesleyan Hymns he quotes from.}

Doctrines of Grace do not lead to sin.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1735.htm

http://www.grace.org.uk/faith/calvin.html

http://www.monergism.com/directory/l...ines-of-Grace/

http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

http://www.geocites.com/Heartland/4857/confessions.html

John Charles Ryle wrote a great book called "Holiness". I had been taught by arminians and other evangelicals and fundamentalists over the years that: Calvinists believe in that "greasy-grace/anything goes" religion. Imagine my shock and surprise that the very first time I ever went inside a Reformed Baptist Church (1689) they were teaching the Sunday School class right from J.C. Ryle's book "Holiness"..? I started going there as a "Flaming Arminian",{when the arminian/non-calvinist churches in my town punked out and went "seeker-sensitive"} with many objections/questions. Over a couple of years and reading through the Confession (with scripture proofs) and reading/listening to good solid teaching that put the Lord God Almighty in charge rather than people in charge...I now count myself with men that stood against the Pope and indulgences and the re-sacrifice of Jesus at the mass, translated/printed Bibles for the people in their native tongues,started the modern missions movement, and the original Southern Baptist Convention.

You also mentioned "Sinners in the hands of a Angry God" a sermon by a calvinist named Jonathan Edwards of New England. Not sure if you were making fun of that or not, but that sermon was used by The Holy Spirit to start "The Great Awakening" in the 1740's in New England. If you have never read or heard it you can listen to the sermon being read by a speaker on www.sermonaudio.com . Nowadays with seeker-sensitive trash taking over our churches and easy-believism and God is my pal mentality, Edwards sermon would not be tolerated.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy. Psalm 145:20

"And I saw a great white throne , and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them." Rev. 20:11

I realise God used calvinists, but it was in spite of their calvinism, not because of it.

And I used to be a calvinist. Don't tell me I don't understand it.

I disagree with covenant theology and what you call reformed theology, because it makes little sense.

I was asking for clarification of dispensationalism in the other thread.

I'm not going to buy into your argument that everyone since the reformation has been a calvinist. It's simply wrong.

Maybe I'll debate with you when I know more about the alternatives to calvinism. I am reading a book called "The Other Side of Calvinism", and it's quite prophetic in a way. You have already made the claims that the author says mosts calvinists will make, by claiming calvinism as the historic position.

If Calvinism is the historic position, how come we don't teach Baptismal Regeneration as LUTHER did (and Augustine)? How come we aren't a bunch of baby sprinklers like Calvin and his ilk? Surely, if they were wrong on that (as well as their amillenialism), they can be wrong on countless other doctrines. The book is right. And calvinism is simply false thilosophy that turns God into a non-loving monster.

Sure, grace for you, but eternal hopelessness to all those he didn't choose, and yet they have no excuse for their sins, because God "decreed" everything eternally. Or maybe you are a double predestination guy, and believe not only in unconditional election, but also unconditional reprobation. Such Love! Such compassion! Such grace! Marvellous. Wonderful.....

If all of God's decrees are eternal, here is one for you. Why does God decree that Hezekiah would die, and then God repents after hearing Hezekiah's prayer, and gives him 15 more years. In fact, why does the Bible say God repents (changes his mind) at all. Or did God decree that He would change His mind. It's stupid human philosophy.

I have nothing against Paul Washer, except his Calvinism and Lordship salvation, which are basically all he ever preaches on. He raises many good points, but his (And yours) false theology requires an impossible solution to the problem.

God bless,
Luke

P.S. Calvinism may as well be a cussword. It's blasphemous and wicked in all it's forms, even if you reject limited atonement.

For some reason I can't edit my post. I spelt philosophy wrong.

Somebody please explain to me the last part of that statement ...."he believes that a man must be regenerated before he can be saved".... there is a lot more to these debates than what I understand, but I can tell you one thing, the MOMENT I was saved, I didn't have to have anybody tell me I was saved, I KNEW it [AMEN]

I thought faith without works was dead....I also thought Jesus said, by their fruits you shall know them....Am I not understanding the basis of this debate??

God Bless, Scott

Scott, are you sinless? Do you always put God first in your life? Have you repented of all your sins? Do you repent every single day? Do you believe God CHOSE to save you, apart from any decision you made to accept Him as Saviour? Do you believe God CHOSE you, for no reason, and doesn't choose others, just to prove He is "sovereign", and full of so called "grace".

That's the argument here. It's not REALLY about calvinism (but whenever Lordship Salvation comes into the fray, Calvinism is usually there, waving it's banner).

The man preaching the message claims that a true Christian is one that repents of their sins every single day, and has committed their life to Christ, and endures to the end, and does the work of God. Yet we can find countless examples of men in the Bible who did the opposite of that, and yet are counted righteous. Lot for example. There is no evidence of him being righteous before God in the Old Testament (the complete opposite is evident), but the New Testament says he was a just man (justified).

So the issue at hand is whether or not that is true. Must a "True Christian" continue in good works to be saved, and prove his salvation. I am not asking "Will a true Christian continue", but "MUST". Are works after salvation a requirement of eternal security. If they are, then it is not eternal security at all, but conditional security.

It's funny how people add works to salvation when they feel like it, and then claim salvation by faith alone elsewhere.

Either it's FAITH alone, or WORKS.

There is none of this "Saved by Faith, preserved by works business, all the while claiming faith alone". That makes no sense. It's either Faith, or Works. There is no middle ground.

Since you addressed me by name, I'll say hello, Luke....in answer to your question [am I sinless?] the Bible says:

I am a minister in a denomination [even though Baptist] that does not believe eternal security although I do believe if you are saved, you are saved [in other words, I personally believe in eternal security]...salvation is a gift of God, by grace through faith....faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God....etc...I also believe when a person is saved, there is a change in that person, wrought by God [regeneration]. Again the Bible says:

The Bible also says:

This doesn't mean we can't sin or won't backslide--salvation is eternal, our relationship with the Lord is day to day, moment to moment....but the question is, if I'm understanding you, can a person be saved and there be absolutely no change in him....If that is the opposite of Calvanism, I must be a "10 point Calvanist" [and I have NO idea what that means]....again, I'm not real bright, but I'm trying to learn--you never really answered my question which was:

Somebody please explain to me the last part of that statement ...."he believes that a man must be regenerated before he can be saved"....

God bless, Scott

Oh, the preacher in the message I posted (Paul Washer), believes that before a man can respond to God's grace, he must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Now, as a Bible Believing Baptist, I believe that a man is convicted by the Holy Spirit, responds to God's grace out of his own free will, and God regenerates a man at the moment of conversion.

This man, Paul Washer, believes that a man is regenerated before he is saved, against his will, and that he then calls on God, against his will, because God "made" him do it.

The latter is clearly wrong. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I know Calvinism has even less.

I appreciate you clearing that up, and I'm sorry for my misunderstanding--I agree with you on this point, and with everything you just said. I don't have time to post anything else right now....God bless, Scott